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  Topic Review (Newest First)
10-29-2002 10:21 AM
MoonDog Some of you may be happy to know that I am revisiting this subject of Jesus and God. I had overlooked this passage. To me it seams that Jesus is making a claim to be God. The people that he was talking to knew what he had just said and wanted to stone him. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Quote:
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.

Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

Joh 8:59 Because of this, they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
10-23-2002 03:27 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


Did God give you your own path or what? To many things you have said don't add up. It sounds like you are mad at religion and have built some type of wall around yourself spiritually.

Lee
About 7 years ago, as I said. Yes, I was mad at religion. I was mad at God. I found my way back, and God has come back into my life. I'm not mad at religion anymore, I've accepted religion for what it is ... a man made concept. I simply don't subscribe to any religion.

You say too many things I've said don't add up ... add up to what? Add up to your belief that Christianity is the only way? Of course not.
10-23-2002 03:18 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


Except this is the path God has chosen for me to walk.
Did God give you your own path or what? To many things you have said don't add up. It sounds like you are mad at religion and have built some type of wall around yourself spiritually.

Lee
10-23-2002 03:16 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
DW-For you to conclude that since Jesus and God are one in the same so you choose to worship God and throw away what he says about his Son is an incomplete faith. (The same for many other "religions") You say that you are talking about the same God that Christians talk about yet, when it comes to His plan of salvation you want to alter it. People these days want salvation by their own expectations and not from how God has stated it. You believe in an Omni* God, yet you can't seem to fathom Jesus as His Son, seperate yet the same? What we have here is a spirituality that is a mile wide yet only an inch deep. What you in essence have done is made yourself a god, and made you own path of salvation.
Except this is the path God has chosen for me to walk.

You guys also seem to be missing the distinction here. I'm not denying Jesus. I'm not saying he wasn't the Son of God. I believe that he was God in the flesh. You keep saying that I'm leaving Jesus out of the equation. I'm not. He's part of the equation. Christianity is part of the equation, but I don't believe it's the whole equation. I don't believe that Christianity is the only way to salvation.
10-23-2002 09:49 AM
MoonDog
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X


Dude, you sound like a Scientologist! hahahahahahaha


Trust me I can see how you conclude this but, you're rolling on a concept that has no Biblical basis. While your scripture is valid, it or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, makes no mention of our "pre-body" souls, having a conscious existence in Heaven like it does concerning Jesus. Therefore I'll take the assumption that Jesus was more than we are.
LOL, I am not a Scientologist.

I see your point JC, but just because the bible doesn't mention having a conscious existence it does mention that we did if fact come from heaven as stated before. It really doesn't come right out and say that Jesus pre-exsisted, but in a round about way I can see how you or anyone else can come to that conclusion. Maybe sometimes I take to bible to literal.

Maybe sometime we can sit down with someothers and discuss this. I am up for it.
10-23-2002 08:55 AM
Monsoon X
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog

Correct me if I am wrong, but if our spirit came from God and God is in heaven did we all not come from heaven? Just because we have no recollection of it doesn't mean we were never there. If we had a memory of heaven then we would have no need for faith. Jesus needed the memory of heaven so he would tell us what it is like and we could chose to believe or not. He knew who He was and what His job on earth was. Alot of us are still trying to figure out what our job here is.
Dude, you sound like a Scientologist! hahahahahahaha


Trust me I can see how you conclude this but, you're rolling on a concept that has no Biblical basis. While your scripture is valid, it or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, makes no mention of our "pre-body" souls, having a conscious existence in Heaven like it does concerning Jesus. Therefore I'll take the assumption that Jesus was more than we are.
10-23-2002 08:43 AM
MoonDog
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X


MD- I said arguing not fighting. There's a difference. A debate is an argument.

I know you don't leave out Jesus. But remember, Jesus was in heaven and he came to us through the flesh and in the flesh. If not, then wouldn't it be pretty presumptious for Him to assume that He was the Messiah? Jesus knew what Heaven was like. (John 14:2,3:13)He was more than a Man whom God was working through
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if our spirit came from God and God is in heaven did we all not come from heaven? Just because we have no recollection of it doesn't mean we were never there. If we had a memory of heaven then we would have no need for faith. Jesus needed the memory of heaven so he would tell us what it is like and we could chose to believe or not. He knew who He was and what His job on earth was. Alot of us are still trying to figure out what our job here is.

Do you think I am wrong, believe me, this is not something that I just came across one day and thought that it sounded good. This was alot of studying and praying. But, that does not mean that I am not open to some new revelation, so to speak.
10-23-2002 08:01 AM
Monsoon X
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog


I wasn't arguing, Lee asked me to explain my view. No harm done.



That is something that I tried to make sure I stated, I never leave out Jesus, Jesus is the reason for the hope that we have today. God said that if you deny His Son before men then you will be denied before the angels.
MD- I said arguing not fighting. There's a difference. A debate is an argument.

I know you don't leave out Jesus. But remember, Jesus was in heaven and he came to us through the flesh and in the flesh. If not, then wouldn't it be pretty presumptious for Him to assume that He was the Messiah? Jesus knew what Heaven was like. (John 14:2,3:13)He was more than a Man whom God was working through
10-23-2002 07:46 AM
MoonDog
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
I'm not gonna go through all the same scriptures that Lee brought forth but, I'm just gonna say that he and Moondog are debating the same yet different takes on the same subject. I think you two are arguing semantics.
I wasn't arguing, Lee asked me to explain my view. No harm done.

Quote:
DW-For you to conclude that since Jesus and God are one in the same so you choose to worship God and throw away what he says about his Son is an incomplete faith. (The same for many other "religions") You say that you are talking about the same God that Christians talk about yet, when it comes to His plan of salvation you want to alter it. People these days want salvation by their own expectations and not from how God has stated it. You believe in an Omni* God, yet you can't seem to fathom Jesus as His Son, seperate yet the same? What we have here is a spirituality that is a mile wide yet only an inch deep. What you in essence have done is made yourself a god, and made you own path of salvation.
That is something that I tried to make sure I stated, I never leave out Jesus, Jesus is the reason for the hope that we have today. God said that if you deny His Son before men then you will be denied before the angels.
10-23-2002 06:50 AM
Monsoon X I'm not gonna go through all the same scriptures that Lee brought forth but, I'm just gonna say that he and Moondog are debating the same yet different takes on the same subject. I think you two are arguing semantics.

Let me see if I can put it this way. If you can imagine three entities who are one in substance(or as a whole) but, are completly seperate individually. Jesus never called himself God because he wasn't "God". He is the Son. There is a hiearchy in the trinity. They are seperate individuals yet, are one. Now you have to understand the conceptual facts of the root word "Omni" to ingest all of this. Omnipotent,Omniscient and Omnipresent.

DW-For you to conclude that since Jesus and God are one in the same so you choose to worship God and throw away what he says about his Son is an incomplete faith. (The same for many other "religions") You say that you are talking about the same God that Christians talk about yet, when it comes to His plan of salvation you want to alter it. People these days want salvation by their own expectations and not from how God has stated it. You believe in an Omni* God, yet you can't seem to fathom Jesus as His Son, seperate yet the same? What we have here is a spirituality that is a mile wide yet only an inch deep. What you in essence have done is made yourself a god, and made you own path of salvation.
10-22-2002 11:21 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
dw -- so you would then say that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) lied to those he spoke to saying he was the only way???
Nope. Because I believe Jesus was God in the flesh. Thusly, I believe that God is the way. Jesus saying that he's the only way, is God saying that he's the only way. That doesn't mean Christianity is the only way.

That's why I don't belong to any religion.
10-19-2002 10:22 PM
speedpro50 dw -- so you would then say that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) lied to those he spoke to saying he was the only way???
10-19-2002 02:53 PM
DarkWolf I've never denied Jesus was the son of God I just don't believe he's the only way to God, for as has been stated, I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, thus I believe that through God are you saved.
10-18-2002 08:32 AM
The Punisher
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
Read your Bible, and you will know my God.
DW, obivious your god is different then the God of the Bible. Well, if you want me to read my Bible and know your god, then your god must be the anti-christ.

1 John 2:18-25
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
10-17-2002 04:09 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
But you must remember Jay, that I also said that you must go through Jesus to get to heaven. There is no way around that. The bible is very clear on that. There is only one mediator between God and man that that is Jesus.
Oh I know... that's just where we differ in our belief.
10-16-2002 07:55 AM
MoonDog
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


Precisely.
But you must remember Jay, that I also said that you must go through Jesus to get to heaven. There is no way around that. The bible is very clear on that. There is only one mediator between God and man that that is Jesus.
10-15-2002 06:46 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Could I be wrong with all this, yes. I usually do not discuss things like this because I know it is different then what most people believe, but at the sametime I don't think it is detrimental to my salvation.
Precisely.
10-15-2002 05:54 PM
MoonDog
Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


Read John 17 "Even as we are ONE" x 3 (i think), and after doing so it should along with dozens of other scriptures clear things up.
Joh 17:22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

Are you and I one? No, we are two distinct individuals. We are one in spirit becuase we are both christians. It is the same with Jesus, He and God are two yet one in Spirit. Like I said, the fullness of God was within Jesus.

Quote:

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Word was in Jesus, everytime Jesus opened his mouth He was speaking truth and those words came straight from God as though God was speaking. Like I said, God dwelt inside of Jesus, they were one in spirit. I am sure there are times when you are in prayer or spending time with God and you are in the Spirit, where you feel that you are one with him. When we feel the Spirit of God moving and people are being healed and delivered does that make you or I God, no, I believe it was the same with Jesus but only on a larger scale, he performed all these miracles but it was God working through Him. We can only comprehend a small portion of what God has to offer but Jesus had the whole portion.

Quote:
Genisis 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. **In verse 1 you have God the Father, verse 2 the Holy Spirit, and verse 3 you have Jesus Christ!
I think this is kind of a stretch because that is implying that Jesus was created and did not exsist in verse 1 and 2. It somewhat supports my theory, So, I will leave that one alone.

Quote:

Do you not believe that Jesus has been around forever????
Simply put, the man Jesus was born around 2000 years ago, right?

Quote:

How do you explain the word "us"???
As in, Gen 1:26 And God said, let Us make man...?

Let Us Make is the Hebrew word "asah"

Taken from Strongs:

6213 `asah {aw-saw'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1708,1709; v

AV - do 1333, make 653, wrought 52, deal 52, commit 49, offer 49,
execute 48, keep 48, shew 43, prepare 37, work 29, do so 21,
perform 18, get 14, dress 13, maker 13, maintain 7, misc 154; 2633

1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to do, work, make, produce
1a1a) to do
1a1b) to work
1a1c) to deal (with)
1a1d) to act, act with effect, effect
1a2) to make
1a2a) to make
1a2b) to produce
1a2c) to prepare
1a2d) to make (an offering)
1a2e) to attend to, put in order
1a2f) to observe, celebrate
1a2g) to acquire (property)
1a2h) to appoint, ordain, institute
1a2i) to bring about
1a2j) to use
1a2k) to spend, pass
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be done
1b2) to be made
1b3) to be produced
1b4) to be offered
1b5) to be observed
1b6) to be used
1c) (Pual) to be made
2) (Piel) to press, squeeze

There is no "let us make" in there. Now, let me say this, many times when I am presented a problem and I am trying to figure it out, I will sometimes say "Let's try this" who am I talking to, me and only me. "Let's" is short for "Let us".

Could I be wrong with all this, yes. I usually do not discuss things like this because I know it is different then what most people believe, but at the sametime I don't think it is detrimental to my salvation.
10-15-2002 03:48 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog


I knew someone was going to ask. And it just had to be Lee.

In short, I dont think Jesus was God but God manifested Himself through Jesus. Much like God can and does manifest Himself through poeple today but only on a larger scale. Like I stated, the fullness of God, all that He is, was in Jesus.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Act 2:22 "Men, Israelites! Pay attention to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a Man having been attested by God among you by miraculous works and wonders and signs which God did through Him in your midst, just as you* yourselves also know-


These two verses state that it was God working through Jesus.
I have found no where in scripture where Jesus says he is God. He doesn't even imply that He is God. Jesus clearly refers to God as someone other then Himself.

Mar 10:18 But Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good except One-God.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted with a loud voice, saying, "'Eloi, Eloi, lima sabachthani?'"-which is, having been translated, "'My God, My God, why did You abandon Me?'"

Joh 20:17 Jesus says to her, "Stop holding Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But be going to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.'"


Also, Steven before he is stoned to death sees Jesus at Gods right hand, how can Jesus be at His own right hand?

I know my view on the Trinity is a little off the wall, but I just dont buy into the 3 in 1 thing, I dont believe that something like that is a matter of life or death. I beleive that a person MUST go through Jesus in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. That is what salvation is all about. Without Jesus we all would perish.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is that simple. That is the short version. I could do a long one and give more references but that would take some time.
Read John 17 "Even as we are ONE" x 3 (i think), and after doing so it should along with dozens of other scriptures clear things up.

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Genisis 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. **In verse 1 you have God the Father, verse 2 the Holy Spirit, and verse 3 you have Jesus Christ!

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Do you not believe that Jesus has been around for ever????
How do you explain the word "us"???
A man YES, but both MAN and God or God in the flesh. Three entities yet ONE person.

Lee
10-15-2002 03:32 PM
MoonDog
Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


I won't, but please explain in more detail!
I knew someone was going to ask. And it just had to be Lee.

In short, I dont think Jesus was God but God manifested Himself through Jesus. Much like God can and does manifest Himself through poeple today but only on a larger scale. Like I stated, the fullness of God, all that He is, was in Jesus.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Act 2:22 "Men, Israelites! Pay attention to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a Man having been attested by God among you by miraculous works and wonders and signs which God did through Him in your midst, just as you* yourselves also know-


These two verses state that it was God working through Jesus.
I have found no where in scripture where Jesus says he is God. He doesn't even imply that He is God. Jesus clearly refers to God as someone other then Himself.

Mar 10:18 But Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good except One-God.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted with a loud voice, saying, "'Eloi, Eloi, lima sabachthani?'"-which is, having been translated, "'My God, My God, why did You abandon Me?'"

Joh 20:17 Jesus says to her, "Stop holding Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But be going to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.'"


Also, Steven before he is stoned to death sees Jesus at Gods right hand, how can Jesus be at His own right hand?

I know my view on the Trinity is a little off the wall, but I just dont buy into the 3 in 1 thing, I dont believe that something like that is a matter of life or death. I beleive that a person MUST go through Jesus in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. That is what salvation is all about. Without Jesus we all would perish.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is that simple. That is the short version. I could do a long one and give more references but that would take some time.
10-15-2002 08:30 AM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Now don't start slamming me guys!
I won't, but please explain in more detail!
10-14-2002 07:06 PM
MoonDog You really want to know who I think Jesus was? I will tell you what I believe.

Jesus was born to a virgin. He was fathered by the Holy Spirit. He was a man and Son of God.

Now, comes the tricky part. Was he God? I dont believe so. Jesus never once said he was God. Did God dwell within Him. Yes. I believe everything that God is and all His Glory was in Jesus. What we as christians have in the Holy Spirit is only a small fraction of what God is. Jesus had it all, everything that God is was in Jesus. God calls Jesus His Son, He doesn't call Him Himself. Jesus allowed God to speak through him.

Maybe that sounds alittle wacky, there is alot more to it but in a nutshell that is what I think. But, that wasn't what my previous post was about. It stated that through Jesus was the only way into Heaven. God said, that if you deny His Son then He will deny you.

Now don't start slamming me guys!
10-14-2002 06:00 PM
DarkWolf So, are you saying Jesus wasn't God in the flesh?
10-14-2002 05:19 PM
MoonDog Act 4:10 be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.
Act 4:11 `This is the stone that was set at nought by you--the builders, that became head of a corner;
Act 4:12 and there is not salvation in any other, for there is no other name under the heaven that hath been given among men, in which it behoveth us to be saved.'

Rom 10:9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,
10-14-2002 05:13 PM
DarkWolf God is the way to salvation. I've always stated that. I put my faith in God. You believe Jesus was God in the flesh, and so through Jesus are you saved ... but wouldn't that really be saying through God that you're saved, since Jesus was God in the flesh?

And I'm not sure if it was you, or not, but I seem to remember one of you guys saying that you know the Bible isn't the whole truth ... but that it's all the truth you need.
10-14-2002 03:15 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
Please tell me what differences I've stated. The only difference I think I've brought up is the necessity to accept Christ as your savior. I stated that I believe it's one way to salvation, but I don't believe it's the only way. The reason it's different form what the Bible says, is because it's essential to Christian theology that Christ is the savior, and the only way to salvation ... thus the term Christian ... People of Christ. But then we get back to my original point ... I don't believe that the Bible is the absolute truth ... only part of it.
Your statement above shows 2 differences not 1. The Bible being absolute truth and Christ (also God -- not your God according to your statements) being the one and only way! My God says these things are true and you say they aren't. You have called God a liar, as He puts His word above His name. This make sense?
10-14-2002 02:51 PM
DarkWolf Please tell me what differences I've stated. The only difference I think I've brought up is the necessity to accept Christ as your savior. I stated that I believe it's one way to salvation, but I don't believe it's the only way. The reason it's different form what the Bible says, is because it's essential to Christian theology that Christ is the savior, and the only way to salvation ... thus the term Christian ... People of Christ. But then we get back to my original point ... I don't believe that the Bible is the absolute truth ... only part of it.
10-14-2002 02:30 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
Read your Bible, and you will know my God.
Well, I do read my bible. From what you have previously stated your God and my God have some distinct differences. So please tell me about your God.
10-14-2002 02:29 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by 281R
Only one Triune God, but lots of gods.
Only one Creator, but lots of angels.
10-14-2002 02:28 PM
DarkWolf Read your Bible, and you will know my God.
10-14-2002 01:43 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
And I answer again, God. There is only one God.
Tell me more about your God.
10-14-2002 01:40 PM
The Punisher
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
And I answer again, God. There is only one God.
Only one Triune God, but lots of gods.
10-14-2002 01:23 PM
DarkWolf And I answer again, God. There is only one God.
10-09-2002 08:56 AM
speedpro50 So again I ask, which God DW?

Lee
10-08-2002 07:21 PM
DarkWolf The answer, God. I know that the Bible is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. I'm not Christian. I'm not a part of any religion.
10-08-2002 09:08 AM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
I thought maybe I should start going to church, and putting my faith back in the Bible as I had once done. And I did try, but I got nothing out of it. When I went to church, God was with me, but the place, the building, felt empty (and I should mention also that when I had been Christian, and all my faith was in the Bible, churches still felt empty to me. Cold, and disconnected. I never really understood it, until later.) When I read the Bible, I see it for the good in it, but I don't see it as the whole truth, the absolute unquestionable truth. I see it as only part of the truth.

I'm without religion, yet God is with me always. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree with me, or whether the Bible agrees with me. God agrees with me, because this is the path he chose for me.
The question DW is which God? The statement that the Bible is part of the truth is true in a way as it does not tell us everything, but the statement is untrue in the way that IT IS ALL THE TRUTH WE NEED TO KNOW! Your statement above that the Bible is not the absolute unquestionable truth is scary, as that is an essentail doctrine of the Christian faith. That is necessary if your are to call yourself a born again believer. Neither you nor I are smart enough to figure out what is true and what is not true in the Word of God if you are right and it is not all true, which I obviously disagree with.

Also, you will have a hard time when you meet Jesus explaining to Him why you don't ever attend church. I understand many many churches today are cold, indifferent, spiritually empty, etc. BUT that is not the case with every church. If oyu have not visited every church until finding the Christian healthy church for you, then you have not done your duty to Jesus Christ. It is a slap in the face to Him by you not being a part (an integral part) in a local church body (another long thread this would take to discuss). You see, Christ died for the church! Watch what you say about not feeling comfortable in any church. The problem could be you, although I do not know your heart. You need church for dozens of reasons like sound teaching, to build your faith, to fellowship with believers who care, you need the WORD, etc. I hope this helps!

Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
10-07-2002 06:39 PM
DarkWolf That's just the thing JC, I'm not riding the fence. I believe what I believe, because it's what I know in my heart to be true. It's the gift God gave me 7 years ago when I went through a spiritual crisis. I was on the verge of truely renouncing God. I had lost my faith. I could feel his absence. I started practicing Herbalism, and soon started practicing Wicca. Not too long after that I started practicing Shamanism, and studying Druidity, and God came back into my life. I could feel his presence again, and I left Wicca, and Shamanism. I left religion, but God has stayed with me through all this.

I thought maybe I should start going to church, and putting my faith back in the Bible as I had once done. And I did try, but I got nothing out of it. When I went to church, God was with me, but the place, the building, felt empty (and I should mention also that when I had been Christian, and all my faith was in the Bible, churches still felt empty to me. Cold, and disconnected. I never really understood it, until later.) When I read the Bible, I see it for the good in it, but I don't see it as the whole truth, the absolute unquestionable truth. I see it as only part of the truth.

I'm without religion, yet God is with me always. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree with me, or whether the Bible agrees with me. God agrees with me, because this is the path he chose for me.
10-07-2002 07:00 AM
Monsoon X Jay you're gonna have to quit riding the fence when it comes to God.

If you believe in God (as you say you do) then you must believe in his word.

Like I stated before and I do seriously challenge you, this simple "book" as you put it, has with stood almost 2000 years of scrutiny from the best of human minds from each century. Yet is still going strong and is yet to be discounted and found as fallible.

It has been compared with History and found true, It has been compared with Science and been found true. I'll also encourage you to go to your local Christian book store and buy a copy of On the 7th day. It is a collection of personal testimonies from 40 scientists about how they came to believe in God and the Bible.
10-07-2002 02:09 AM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
Follow me here DW. If the Bible is not true then we are in a mess because God says it is the truth. God puts his WORD above his name. So, if a person denies the Bible being complete truth, then I would say he is LOST and calling God a liar.

The Bible being absolute truth, means that it is completely factual. I have not personally seen the Lord, but Moses saw God's back parts after he passed by, Isaiah saw the Lord upon his throne, Stephen the NT Deacon of the 1st church saw heaven opened up. Your previous statement that I have not seen God, makes no difference according to my knowledge that He is the God. If the Bible is truth then what the above mentioned people said must also be true! If you deny the Bible as infalible, then this discussion should end and we should move onto sharing the gospel with you as the Holy Spirit would have to shed light on your heart.

Lee
Try following me here. I've never said the Bible wasn't true. I've said it's not infallible, because it was written by man. I've said that God's core message is there.

As for the second part of your response, you only know these things, because they're written in the Bible. There's no physical evidence to support that argument.

I agree with you this discussion should end, because as I said before, neither of us is going to agree with the other. We see things differently ... though nearly the same. We're just going to keep going around in circles, and neither of us will prove anything to the other. You believe the Bible is infallible, I don't (that doesn't mean I believe the Bible is false). Let's move on.
10-04-2002 07:38 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


Whoa whoa whoa. When did this ever become an assumption that I don't believe in God, that I don't know God exists? I know in my heart, but I also know that doesn't mean it's true. I believe that it's true, just like you, but I know that simply because I believe ... hell, even KNOW it to be true, doesn't necissarily make it true. Absolutely God exists, and without a doubt I believe in him.

As for the Bible, did I say I believe it to be completely made up? No. I was pointing out that as a possibility, because in all honesty, it IS a possibility. It's absolutely possible that men, alone, could concieve of the Bible, and to give it validity, use actual events that happened, and names of people who actually existed. Yes it's possible. Do I believe it's completely made up? Of course not. But I, like you, have no proof that it's not. I, like you, have no proof that God exists. We cannot walk up to someone who doesn't believe in God and say "Hey, walk through this doorway with me. See that big glowing being sitting in that throne over there. Yeah, him. That's God. Just thought you might like to know that what we've believed all along is true." We know what we believe, and we know it to be true in our hearts. But that doesn't by default make it true.
Follow me here DW. If the Bible is not true then we are in a mess because God says it is the truth. God puts his WORD above his name. So, if a person denies the Bible being complete truth, then I would say he is LOST and calling God a liar.

The Bible being absolute truth, means that it is completely factual. I have not personally seen the Lord, but Moses saw God's back parts after he passed by, Isaiah saw the Lord upon his throne, Stephen the NT Deacon of the 1st church saw heaven opened up. Your previous statement that I have not seen God, makes no difference according to my knowledge that He is the God. If the Bible is truth then what the above mentioned people said must also be true! If you deny the Bible as infalible, then this discussion should end and we should move onto sharing the gospel with you as the Holy Spirit would have to shed light on your heart.

Lee
10-04-2002 01:03 AM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Jay-You're gonna have a hard time with this line of statements. We all believe in God because we do in fact KNOW it to be true.

That's something you can't even begin to relate to.

I personally know that there is supreme God and that he sent His Son to die for us, for our sins. WHY? Because what you call many coincediences I call the work of God in my life. I thank God for ALL things that happen in my life. And when I lean on Him and trust that he'll take care of things, HE DOES LIKE HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD.

I worry about nothing in life. Do I have problems? Sure. But they ALWAYS work out in my favor to glorify the name of God, because I'm sure to let everyone know that it is God working in my life and not some "coincedience".

And about the Bible being a simple book is wrong. The Bible has withstood the most extreme scruntiny over all the centuries and has never been discounted. No men ALONE could have conjured up a book like the Bible. To disregard it as a simple collection of stories made up by men shows that you have never set out to read it and find errors totally.

I challenge you to read it in it's entirety and still come out thinking that it's fake. Go ahead and compare it with the History books and scientific journals. You'll see it is accurate.
Whoa whoa whoa. When did this ever become an assumption that I don't believe in God, that I don't know God exists? I know in my heart, but I also know that doesn't mean it's true. I believe that it's true, just like you, but I know that simply because I believe ... hell, even KNOW it to be true, doesn't necissarily make it true. Absolutely God exists, and without a doubt I believe in him.

As for the Bible, did I say I believe it to be completely made up? No. I was pointing out that as a possibility, because in all honesty, it IS a possibility. It's absolutely possible that men, alone, could concieve of the Bible, and to give it validity, use actual events that happened, and names of people who actually existed. Yes it's possible. Do I believe it's completely made up? Of course not. But I, like you, have no proof that it's not. I, like you, have no proof that God exists. We cannot walk up to someone who doesn't believe in God and say "Hey, walk through this doorway with me. See that big glowing being sitting in that throne over there. Yeah, him. That's God. Just thought you might like to know that what we've believed all along is true." We know what we believe, and we know it to be true in our hearts. But that doesn't by default make it true.
10-03-2002 08:30 AM
speedpro50 Thats good JC!
10-03-2002 06:33 AM
Monsoon X Jay-You're gonna have a hard time with this line of statements. We all believe in God because we do in fact KNOW it to be true.

That's something you can't even begin to relate to.

I personally know that there is supreme God and that he sent His Son to die for us, for our sins. WHY? Because what you call many coincediences I call the work of God in my life. I thank God for ALL things that happen in my life. And when I lean on Him and trust that he'll take care of things, HE DOES LIKE HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD.

I worry about nothing in life. Do I have problems? Sure. But they ALWAYS work out in my favor to glorify the name of God, because I'm sure to let everyone know that it is God working in my life and not some "coincedience".

And about the Bible being a simple book is wrong. The Bible has withstood the most extreme scruntiny over all the centuries and has never been discounted. No men ALONE could have conjured up a book like the Bible. To disregard it as a simple collection of stories made up by men shows that you have never set out to read it and find errors totally.

I challenge you to read it in it's entirety and still come out thinking that it's fake. Go ahead and compare it with the History books and scientific journals. You'll see it is accurate.
10-02-2002 03:40 PM
DarkWolf Again, you're not understanding. You are confusing belief with confirmation of truth. You do not know that what you believe is fact, but you believe that it is, and your belief is strong, and so you are convinced that it is. But that does not mean that it is. No, it's not emotional, no, it's not because you "reckon" it so. You believe, with all your heart that it's true ... but deep down inside, you do not truely know for sure. You've convinced yourself that you do, but you don't. No one does. No one living, at least.

Have you physically seen God? Have you physically touched him? Have you physically seen Jesus in the flesh? No. You have no physical proof (other than a book, that for all we know could be completely made up by an ancient historian that used real events to make it seem more plausible.) that what you believe is true. You believe it on faith that it's true, but really, you don't know for sure.

But I know you're not going to agree, so there's no need for you to respond.
10-02-2002 08:49 AM
speedpro50 [QUOTE]Originally posted by DarkWolf
[B]Whether or not I believe the way you do is irrelevant. The fact is, you believe you know. But in all truth, you don't know for sure. None of us does. You want to believe that you know for sure. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating that none of us knows for sure, all that we can do is believe what we believe. But don't confuse belief as a confirmation of truth.

Also, you have no idea whether or not Jesus or God has spoken to my heart ... please don't presume to.

You are simply incorrect. I put my faith and belief in what I know to be true. A Christians faith (if they know anything) is based on fact not fiction. Fact is what we can KNOW. I know for a fact I am saved and will one day die and go to heaven unless Jesus comes back first! That is a fact, not because I reckon it so, but becuase it is truth. I also do not base my beliefs off of mere emotions as emotions will ie to you. Again, I under stand you NOT understanding. The Holy Spirit only can make you see.

About your last comment, I do not know your heart, but it is clear you do not hold to the Bible being the infalible and inerrant word of God. If this is the case it would be hard for someone that feels this way to be saved in the first place. Not to say that some other god didn't speak to your heart. With love I pray that Christ will one day call you Son.

In Christ,

Lee
10-02-2002 12:51 AM
DarkWolf Whether or not I believe the way you do is irrelevant. The fact is, you believe you know. But in all truth, you don't know for sure. None of us does. You want to believe that you know for sure. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating that none of us knows for sure, all that we can do is believe what we believe. But don't confuse belief as a confirmation of truth.

Also, you have no idea whether or not Jesus or God has spoken to my heart ... please don't presume to.
09-30-2002 09:15 AM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.
Before talling me what I know and don't know you should be careful. There are some things we can know for sure.

Romans 8:15-17
I John 3:14
I John 4:13
I John 5:13,15
and the list goes on and on. Believers know some things unbelievers do not and that is a fact. If the Lord Jesus has never spoken to heart and called you son, I understand your not being able to see these things as the truth they are.

Lee
09-26-2002 01:36 PM
Monsoon X
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.
Well it all comes down to if you believe in God and the Bible. If not then you're right, one will not believe that Christianity is the right way.


But we who Believe in God know where his word is contained, and we know in whom our salvation lies. JESUS

Because anything is open to interpretation, even the Bible. But you have to comprehend it as a complete work, not in excerpts taken here and there.
09-26-2002 12:46 PM
speedpro50
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
"The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things."

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.
No sir. The reason I said 3 things, is because I have carefully compared the text to the rest of the Word of God, so I don't fall into the trap of creating my own meaning.

Lee
09-26-2002 12:45 PM
DarkWolf
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
No DW. God is Christianity. God sent us his Son, Jesus. Yes you must let God/Holy Spirit direct you to the path. but make no mistake, the path has Jesus on it. Any other religion that teaches otherwise is false. That we DO know FOR SURE.
No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.
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