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post #1 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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extractor fan for garage

Has anyone done something like this? i want to put an extractor fan in my ceiling to pull the heat out of my garage and either dump outside or into my attic.

first of all.. is dumping into the attic a bad idea? has anyone done something like this before?

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post #2 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:27 PM
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You mean like the attic fans that used to be the norm for a house before A/C was the norm?
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post #3 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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You mean like the attic fans that used to be the norm for a house before A/C was the norm?
note sure about that..

im talking about something like this..

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...at-_-Bath_Fans

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post #4 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:32 PM
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My Dad has one in his Garage. Helps alot when heat is coming in from the attic.

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post #5 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:35 PM
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it is very common in warehouses, pump houses, etc to use mechanical ventilation to remove heat, but you will never get your garage to be cooler than the outside temperature.

Dumping into the attic is a dumb idea, you would be pressurizing the attic and not allowing it to properly ventilate, unless you replaced some fans on the roof. It also might go against code, I am pretty sure dumping your kitchen hood into the attic is against code, but that might only be because it is a kitchen hood.

Chances are you would need several of those 280 CFM fans too.

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post #6 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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i could always run a duct into the attict and out the side... that way it wouldnt heat or pressurize the attic.. im not looking to super cool the garage, but it seems if its 100 outside its 130 in the garage..

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post #7 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 01:40 PM
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I would research and see if someone still makes an attic fan. My grandmothers old house still has one in it. Even in the summer that thing will cool the whole house down if all the doors are open. They make lots a noise but they cool very well.


http://www.atticfan.com/
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post #8 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 02:28 PM
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i could always run a duct into the attict and out the side... that way it wouldnt heat or pressurize the attic.. im not looking to super cool the garage, but it seems if its 100 outside its 130 in the garage..
you would still be looking at 110* inside the garage on a 100* day with a fan. You would need twice as much air to get it to 105* inside. If you really wanted to do this, I would look at an axial wall fan and use it as a supply fan to pressureize the garage and only use it when the garage door is open. I think you are looking at about needing 1000 CFM to keep the garage at 10 degrees above the outside conditoins.

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post #9 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 02:44 PM
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Chances are you would need several of those 280 CFM fans too.
This is correct. That fan was meant to move out odors and light dust. It will not move any significant volume of air.

Question. If you're willing to put a wall mounted fan, why not just put an AC window unit there instead? The power consumption isn't going to be that much different and you will be 1000 times more comfortable than just moving air around and letting your own sweat cool you off...

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post #10 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 02:53 PM
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, I am pretty sure dumping your kitchen hood into the attic is against code, but that might only be because it is a kitchen hood.


Dumping kitchen ventilation in to an attic or dead air space is a no no, because of the grease laden vapors. Fire hazard city, given the temps in attics. I don't think it really has much to do with pressurizing the attic, because those fans (residential ones) don't move much in the way of air anyways. Commercial is a whole different ballgame, with some similarities, but commercial vents are moving quite a bit of air, vs the 200 or so cfm your standard residential exhaust fan moves.
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post #11 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 02:54 PM
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This is correct. That fan was meant to move out odors and light dust. It will not move any significant volume of air.

Question. If you're willing to put a wall mounted fan, why not just put an AC window unit there instead? The power consumption isn't going to be that much different and you will be 1000 times more comfortable than just moving air around and letting your own sweat cool you off...



This is what I'm doing. Insulating the walls when I replace the sheetrock, and cutting a hole for a window unit. And insulating the door of course.
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post #12 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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im not willing to put a fan into the wall. i cant knock a hole in the wall. i want somthing i can run ito the attic and then out a soffet.

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post #13 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 02:58 PM
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Jewbacca -- You'd have to go with something like this, to really keep it cool in there. Obviously it's not cost effective, and they likely don't make anything small enough to work in your space.

http://www.bigassfans.com/


Honestly, your cheapest option is buying a big floor fan like you'd see in a warehouse, and just pointing it towards where you are working. You'll want the garage door open though. Otherwise you're just moving around stale hot air. With a standard fan blowing, it at least gives you air movement, and the hot air can rise to the top and roll out the door.
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post #14 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:02 PM
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im not willing to put a fan into the wall. i cant knock a hole in the wall. i want somthing i can run ito the attic and then out a soffet.
Ok.

Maybe, just maybe, this could work for you....

This is a portable AC unit. You have to set up a vent line to the outside to get rid of the heat. I have seen these setup to vent up into the attic. I see no reason you couldn't vent up to the attic and out the soffet.. Big Studly may know more..

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...se=&lang=en-US

There are several brands out there, this one was one of the cheap ones at Costco..

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post #15 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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so more info

my computer room has a portable ACunit that vents hot air into the garage.. making it hotter then ambient. Im not so much looking to make the garage cool for when i work in there as to get that hot air out of it.. the garage was the only place i could vent this unit.

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post #16 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:11 PM
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so more info

my computer room has a portable ACunit that vents hot air into the garage.. making it hotter then ambient. Im not so much looking to make the garage cool for when i work in there as to get that hot air out of it.. the garage was the only place i could vent this unit.
OIC.. that completes the picture a bit more..

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post #17 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:13 PM
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so more info

my computer room has a portable ACunit that vents hot air into the garage.. making it hotter then ambient. Im not so much looking to make the garage cool for when i work in there as to get that hot air out of it.. the garage was the only place i could vent this unit.


You could always do something like a solar powered fan, like they use for attics. You would just have to cut a hole in the ceiling, and run a duct through the attic to the roof.


But, you said you can't cut a hole in the wall, I'd assume that means you can't cut a hole in the ceiling either, much less in the roof.

Heat rises. If you just cut a hole in the ceiling, the hotter air will move in to the attic, but would add heat/stress to the air handler, assuming yours is located in the attic.
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post #18 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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hmm. i guess i could take the smarter aproach and just ask my pops since he runs his own heating/cooling AC company. but that would be thinking....

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post #19 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:22 PM
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You could always do something like a solar powered fan, like they use for attics. You would just have to cut a hole in the ceiling, and run a duct through the attic to the roof.


But, you said you can't cut a hole in the wall, I'd assume that means you can't cut a hole in the ceiling either, much less in the roof.

Heat rises. If you just cut a hole in the ceiling, the hotter air will move in to the attic, but would add heat/stress to the air handler, assuming yours is located in the attic.
no it doesn't

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post #20 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:23 PM
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no it doesn't
You know what I meant, cock smoke.
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post #21 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:26 PM
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Ok.

Maybe, just maybe, this could work for you....

This is a portable AC unit. You have to set up a vent line to the outside to get rid of the heat. I have seen these setup to vent up into the attic. I see no reason you couldn't vent up to the attic and out the soffet.. Big Studly may know more..

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...se=&lang=en-US

There are several brands out there, this one was one of the cheap ones at Costco..

Hope this helps..
Believe it or not, that would probably work. I think I used a 10X10 garage with 10' high walls, minimum insulation on the walls, but R-38 in the roof and I got about 12,000 BTUH of heat gain. No windows though and an 8'x8' garage door. That is where I got the 1000 CFM from CFM = 12000/1.08/10*. If you have a small enough garage with minimal windows, that would probably keep it bareable. Now with the hot air blowing in, that is a different story.

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post #22 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:28 PM
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Dumping kitchen ventilation in to an attic or dead air space is a no no, because of the grease laden vapors. Fire hazard city, given the temps in attics. I don't think it really has much to do with pressurizing the attic, because those fans (residential ones) don't move much in the way of air anyways. Commercial is a whole different ballgame, with some similarities, but commercial vents are moving quite a bit of air, vs the 200 or so cfm your standard residential exhaust fan moves.
I figured the grease had something to do with it..only reason I mentioned the pressure problem is because I had a feeling he would have to vent a hell of a lot more air than 200CFM, and I was right, putting 1000CFM into your attic would be pretty stupid.

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post #23 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 03:43 PM
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they make a few other options. Home Depot doesnt stock them but you can get a gable mount attic fan from lowes and its thermostat controlled. they run about 60 bucks. you wont be able to prevent "back draft" but its only going to run when it gets above a certain temp anyways. as long as you have whirly birds, attic fans, or side or soffit vents you should be fine and not have to worry about any back draft. i would buy a couple and mount one over your whirly bird opening or one of the side vents in your attic as well as cut one in for the garage and be done with it. They move about 1320 cfm so make sure that the air does have somewhere to go.

another option is this

http://www.wholehousefan.com/PRODUCTS/HV-1000-DB.html

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post #24 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 05:05 PM
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Jewbacca -- You'd have to go with something like this, to really keep it cool in there. Obviously it's not cost effective, and they likely don't make anything small enough to work in your space.

http://www.bigassfans.com/


Honestly, your cheapest option is buying a big floor fan like you'd see in a warehouse, and just pointing it towards where you are working. You'll want the garage door open though. Otherwise you're just moving around stale hot air. With a standard fan blowing, it at least gives you air movement, and the hot air can rise to the top and roll out the door.
They make a 6ft'er but it cost up around 3grand. We have a 16 and an 18ft in our shop at work and it keeps the shop at an average of 10 degrees cooler than the outside temp. Deffinetly not cost effective.
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post #25 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 11:09 PM
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This may sound ghetto but I recently found a way to work in my garage (east facing) all day. I run 3 fans and create sort of a circular....whatever. Anyway....counter clockwise I have a fan pointing towards the back...the back fan points towards the other side and that fan points towards the center of the garage door (if it were closed).

Nice part is it creates air flow through the whole garage, a little sweat and it is like AC. I swear though, in general it makes it easier to stand to be out there. Used to get to the point where I could only stand to work on something for 5-10 minutes before needing another bottle of water and a break. (I'm an office type worker, so not the toughest around) Now I can go a good 30 minutes or so. Lots of sweat, but the airflow makes the sweat do something.

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post #26 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-07-2009, 11:39 PM
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This is correct. That fan was meant to move out odors and light dust. It will not move any significant volume of air.

Question. If you're willing to put a wall mounted fan, why not just put an AC window unit there instead? The power consumption isn't going to be that much different and you will be 1000 times more comfortable than just moving air around and letting your own sweat cool you off...

Now see this is about what I was covering in my thread here
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=393851

I guess the difference in me using a split unit style a/c and the window unit are........well, I can not think of much difference. There seems to be code issues being discussed about whether or not I can put them in a garage, part of which seems to center around PPM of exhaust. Like any sane person would have a running car in an enclosed area without proper exhaust scavenging methods.

My future purchase to rectify my garage.
http://kingersons.com/12000btuminisplitac-inverter.html

My plan to cool the garage is based on wanting it to be bearable to work on the car and other projects in. That and the man cave needs to be comfortable too. Can't watch the race on HD flat screen if you are sticking to the leather couch.

In agreeing with most of the replies look at doing something bigger and not venting into the attic, you may want to run a duct straight thru the attic to a vent on an outside wall or something.
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post #27 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:36 AM
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or something like this in the garage ceiling

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...rica/26291.pdf
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post #28 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:16 AM
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Now see this is about what I was covering in my thread here
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=393851

I guess the difference in me using a split unit style a/c and the window unit are........well, I can not think of much difference. There seems to be code issues being discussed about whether or not I can put them in a garage, part of which seems to center around PPM of exhaust. Like any sane person would have a running car in an enclosed area without proper exhaust scavenging methods.

My future purchase to rectify my garage.
http://kingersons.com/12000btuminisplitac-inverter.html

My plan to cool the garage is based on wanting it to be bearable to work on the car and other projects in. That and the man cave needs to be comfortable too. Can't watch the race on HD flat screen if you are sticking to the leather couch.

In agreeing with most of the replies look at doing something bigger and not venting into the attic, you may want to run a duct straight thru the attic to a vent on an outside wall or something.

Thats the style ac units that all the offbase housing in okinawa has. Those things kick ass. Each room will have 2-4 of them depending on the size of the room. Usually you only have to use one on a hot day.
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post #29 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:26 AM
 
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I have one in my home its about 25-30 inches wide at the top of my stairs on the 2nd floor. That bad boy can move some air. Crack a window about 2 inches in each room and the air flows hard through the whole house. i would just let it vent into the attic as it will cause pressure in the attic from all the air being forced in and it will in turn force the air out of the vents in the corners of your roofs peak. It also cools your attic pretty darn well. But no need to run ducts at all thats just a pointless costly nuiscance as the fans are made to be attic dumped. Also that 7 inch fan is a glorified bathroom fan it doesnt have the power or mass for a strong flow. This one will do the job you want


http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100018252

Last edited by Brianm2004; 07-08-2009 at 08:33 AM.
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post #30 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:38 AM
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I have one in my home its about 25-30 inches wide at the top of my stairs on the 2nd floor. That bad boy can move some air. Crack a window about 2 inches in each room and the air flows hard through the whole house. i would just let it vent into the attic as it will cause pressure in the attic from all the air being forced in and it will in turn force the air out of the vents in the corners of your roofs peak. It also cools your attic pretty darn well. But no need to run ducts at all thats just a pointless costly nuiscance as the fans are made to be attic dumped. Also that 7 inch fan is a glorified bathroom fan it doesnt have the power or mass for a strong flow. This one will do the job you want


http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100018252
yea, read it this morning that you can't vent anything to the attic and I doubt 110 garage air will cool his attic very well

and if you are doing this in your home using the conditioned air, that is just dumb, you are basically cooling your attic with a/c.

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post #31 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:07 AM
 
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yea, read it this morning that you can't vent anything to the attic and I doubt 110 garage air will cool his attic very well

and if you are doing this in your home using the conditioned air, that is just dumb, you are basically cooling your attic with a/c.
First I never said I ran it when my AC was on so you assumed and made an ass of yourself, Moron. Der De Der.



Wow, you are a real smart one arent you. I love when idiots show there true colors whithout even being asked too. First off you didnt read anywhere that you cant vent air into your attic your just running your mouth. thats why they sell eve fans for attics. There is no code or Reg stating that you cant bring in the fresh air from below instead of the side of the eves. These fans are designed to be vented into attics and sold as such if you read the sales description. Do a little real research before you go flapping your gums about shit you know nothing about. Third yes it will cool his attic as well, If you bothered to pull your head out of your ass you would realise that the attic being an semi-enclosed space as well as a dark colored shingle roof would drastically raise the temp inside to an easy 150-165 on a 110 day by simple conduction. by bringing in the cooler outside air under pressure it would reduce the temp to the temp of the air within a few degrees. Thanks for the input Dr. Donothing
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post #32 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:15 AM
 
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Here is a post I found on The Texas State Dept. of Energy website.




whole-house fan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A mechanical/electrical device used to pull air out of an interior space; it is usually located in the highest location of a building, in the ceiling, and venting to the attic. A whole house fan is a simple and inexpensive method of cooling a house. The fan draws cool outdoor air inside through open windows and exhausts hot indoor air through the attic to the outside. Running a whole house fan whenever outdoor temperatures are lower than indoor temperatures will cool a house. In summer, the air inside a home is heated during the hot part of the day. During the morning, late evening, and night, the outside air is often cooler and can be used to replace the inside air. Operating the whole house fan at these times will cool interior materials. As daytime temperatures rise, the whole house fan can be turned off. The cool materials (along with ceiling or circulating fans, which create an additional cooling effect) will help keep the interior more comfortable.

A whole house fan can be used as the sole means of cooling or to reduce the need for air conditioning



Here is a Diagram from a texas building code website I found.


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post #33 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:37 AM
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First I never said I ran it when my AC was on so you assumed and made an ass of yourself, Moron. Der De Der.



Wow, you are a real smart one arent you. I love when idiots show there true colors whithout even being asked too. First off you didnt read anywhere that you cant vent air into your attic your just running your mouth. thats why they sell eve fans for attics. There is no code or Reg stating that you cant bring in the fresh air from below instead of the side of the eves. These fans are designed to be vented into attics and sold as such if you read the sales description. Do a little real research before you go flapping your gums about shit you know nothing about. Third yes it will cool his attic as well, If you bothered to pull your head out of your ass you would realise that the attic being an semi-enclosed space as well as a dark colored shingle roof would drastically raise the temp inside to an easy 150-165 on a 110 day by simple conduction. by bringing in the cooler outside air under pressure it would reduce the temp to the temp of the air within a few degrees. Thanks for the input Dr. Donothing
Here is what I read..

you are a smart one aren't you..

SECTION M1501
GENERAL
M1501.1 Outdoor discharge. The air removed by every
mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged to the outdoors.
Air shall not be exhausted into an attic, soffit, ridge vent or
crawl space.

Exception: Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that
discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private
attics shall be permitted.

I didn't read the exception because, well, that is just flat out stupid to do, but, if he is using it for his garage, he still can't vent it into the attic because it wouldn't be a whole house fan, I don't give a rats ass what it is described as.

1st, if you are going to vent the air in your home to the attic, you have to make that air up from somewhere. Since you are pulling a negative pressure on your living space, it can only come from one place, the outside. Doing that in this climate in the summer will result in you brining in 100 degree air into your conditioned space, and what do you know, 100 degree air into a 75 degree space will heat it up, thus causing your a/c to cycle more frequently. So lets break this down for you since you are such a genius. Cooling the attic with 75 degree air from your home, then bringing in 100 degree air into your home to warm it up...you are basically using your a/c to condition your attic, which is real fucking smart if you are a retard.

It makes a little sense to use for the small window of time this area has in the fall when the temperature hovers around 70 degrees though, but I am going to go out on a limb and say he probably wants to use it in the summer too, but since he can't use it as a whole house attic fan in the summer (unless he is retarded like you) and can't discharge it into the attic if it is for the garage only, than that thing won't work.

2nd, back to the garage situation, if you used enough air to ventilate the garage to 10 degrees above ambient, on a hot day it would be 110+. Mixing 1000 cubic feet of air at 110 degrees with say 2400 cubic feet of 150 degree air would bring the attic down to 132 degrees, then add in the heat load to the attic space that heats it back up. On top of that, you have insulation between the attic and house, and if adequate enough, a 20 degree difference will mean absolutely nothing in the long run, but I don't expect you to understand that.


Last edited by Big Studly; 07-08-2009 at 09:45 AM.
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post #34 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Big Studly View Post
Here is what I read..

you are a smart one aren't you..

SECTION M1501
GENERAL
M1501.1 Outdoor discharge. The air removed by every
mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged to the outdoors.
Air shall not be exhausted into an attic, soffit, ridge vent or
crawl space.

Exception: Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that
discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private
attics shall be permitted.

I didn't read the exception because, well, that is just flat out stupid to do, but, if he is using it for his garage, he still can't vent it into the attic because it wouldn't be a whole house fan, I don't give a rats ass what it is described as.

1st, if you are going to vent the air in your home to the attic, you have to make that air up from somewhere. Since you are pulling a negative pressure on your living space, it can only come from one place, the outside. Doing that in this climate in the summer will result in you brining in 100 degree air into your conditioned space, and what do you know, 100 degree air into a 75 degree space will heat it up, thus causing your a/c to cycle more frequently. So lets break this down for you since you are such a genius. Cooling the attic with 75 degree air from your home, then bringing in 100 degree air into your home to warm it up...you are basically using your a/c to condition your attic, which is real fucking smart if you are a retard.

It makes a little sense to use for the small window of time this area has in the fall when the temperature hovers around 70 degrees though, but I am going to go out on a limb and say he probably wants to use it in the summer too, but since he can't use it as a whole house attic fan in the summer (unless he is retarded like you) and can't discharge it into the attic if it is for the garage only, than that thing won't work.

2nd, back to the garage situation, if you used enough air to ventilate the garage to 10 degrees above ambient, on a hot day it would be 110+. Mixing 1000 cubic feet of air at 110 degrees with say 2400 cubic feet of 150 degree air would bring the attic down to 132 degrees, then add in the heat load to the attic space that heats it back up. On top of that, you have insulation between the attic and house, and if adequate enough, a 20 degree difference will mean absolutely nothing in the long run, but I don't expect you to understand that.
Here we go with the A/C shit again. When running the fan in a space that is not air conditioned it has no affect on air condition also it is still a "whole house fan" if he wants it to be by simply turning off the air in his home if he so chooses and opening the garage door to the house. You are beyond dense, My father owns his own GC and HVAC company and frequently puts these in homes. Like you even admitted you ran your mouth without all the info so now go chem on your foot. This application is allowed, cost affective and quit common. Just because you dont have the mental capacity to comprehend the idea or concept behind it does not mean it is wrong. It is a solution that is used quit extensivly. It draws air in from lower areas closer to the ground forcing out the hotter air. You are only accounting for the exact temprature of the air but not the cooling properties had by the movment as well. It actually can make the house feel quit cold just because of the air moving so rapidly.


Also Texas building code does not restrict the placement of a WHOLE HOUSE UNIT.

As stated it refers to a WHOLE HOUSE TYPE and does not say it must be used for every room. It is just refering to the designation of the fan type as opposed to an EXAUST FAN

Exception: Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that
discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private
attics shall be permitted
But it says nowhere that it must be used for the whole home only that it must be a WHOLE HOUSE TYPE THAT DISCHARGES INTO A PRIVATE ATTIC.

Last edited by Brianm2004; 07-08-2009 at 09:57 AM.
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post #35 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianm2004 View Post
Here we go with the A/C shit again. When running the fan in a space that is not air conditioned it has no affect on air condition also it is still a "whole house fan" if he wants it to be by simply turning off the air in his home if he so chooses and opening the garage door to the house. You are beyond dense, My father owns his own GC and HVAC company and frequently puts these in homes. Like you even admitted you ran your mouth without all the info so now go chem on your foot. This application is allowed, cost affective and quit common. Just because you dont have the mental capacity to comprehend the idea or concept behind it does not mean it is wrong. It is a solution that is used quit extensivly. It draws air in from lower areas closer to the ground forcing out the hotter air. You are only accounting for the exact temprature of the air but not the cooling properties had by the movment as well. It actually can make the house feel quit cold just because of the air moving so rapidly.


Also Texas building code does not restrict the placement of a WHOLE HOUSE UNIT.

As stated it refers to a WHOLE HOUSE TYPE and does not say it must be used for every room. It is just refering to the designation of the fan type as opposed to an EXAUST FAN

Exception: Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that
discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private
attics shall be permitted
But it says nowhere that it must be used for the whole home only that it must be a WHOLE HOUSE TYPE THAT DISCHARGES INTO A PRIVATE ATTIC.
so daddy installs HVAC equipment, so you are an expert huh? At least you think your dumb ass is. Let me guess it is "quit" common for you to take credit for you daddy's knowledge.

Let me break it down for you in moron terms so you can possibly understand it, yet I have my doubts.

It is 100 degrees in the summer and he is working in his garage so he turns on the fan to "cool" the garage down. Three scenarios can happen:

1) He leaves his A/C on in the house, opens the garage door between the house and the garage like you suggested to make it a whole house attic fan, then he is, like I said before, cooling his garage with the a/c. Stupid.

2) He turns his a/c off in the house, opens the garage door between the house and garage like you suggested to make it a whole house attic fan, then he is pulling the air from inside the house to the garage. Since you are pulling air from the inside of the house, it has to have some source for make-up air. There is only one source since the inside of the house is now at a negative pressure, the outside. So now he is pulling in 100 degree air into his house then through to the garage. I am sure that if anyone is in the house at that time, they would really appreciate it, then you have to use the a/c to cool the house back down from over 100 degrees. Again, stupid.

3) He leaves the a/c on, keeps the door between the garage and the house closed. Then the fan can not be used in this application because it then becomes a ventilation fan for the garage and by code, can not be discharged into the attic.

It does take a bit of brains to interpret codes, so I can understand why you have no idea what you are fucking talking about. A whole house type attic fan is refering to the application of the fan. You can call a bathroom exhaust fan a helicopter, but it is still a bathroom exhaust fan. A kitchen hood would ventilate your house because it pulls a negative pressure on the inside of the house. It doesn't have enough CFM to cool an entire house, but it would be the same concept as running a whole house attic fan in the heat of the summer, no cooling effect, yet you can't discharge that into the attic. Same goes for bathroom exhaust. And in reverse, you could use one of those type of fans as a kitchen hood or bathroom exhaust fan, but since it isn't designed to ventilate the whole house, you couldn't discharge it to the attic. The exception is for a whole-house ventilation-type attic fan, not a whole-house-ventilation type attic fan, as in, it is the type of fan used for ventilation for the entire house. A whole house attic fan is a fan that is used to ventilate the whole house when the cooler ambient temperatures will allow it. It is basically the same thing as an economizer on a large HVAC unit. Draws in cooler outside air to remove the heat from inside a space. If you use it on 100 degree days, you are not doing that at all, it makes no sense to, it is stupid.

Bottom line, he can not use that fan unelss he wants to waste energy by running the a/c at the same time, or make his house uncomfortably hot in the dog days of summer so he can work in the garage in 110 degree heat and then go inside to possibly even warmer temperatures and some pissed off people, just so he can keep the garage at 110*.

A floor fan would cost 1/10 of that, not piss anyone off, and he could get the conductive cooling effect from the air blowing on him and the evaporative cooling effect from his sweat evaporating.

Now go run to daddy for more HVAC advice because you clearly need it.

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post #36 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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Lol, I worked with my father doing HVAC for 7 years before joining the military my friend.

3) He leaves the a/c on, keeps the door between the garage and the house closed. Then the fan can not be used in this application because it then becomes a ventilation fan for the garage and by code, can not be discharged into the attic.


You dont quit understand, There is no code saying doors have to be open or wich rooms have to receive circulation. Its the same as if he had one in his bedroom and closed his door to the rest of his house.

BUT just to show your a complete fucktard and to help you realise that code is not up for interpretation as its meant to be followed as written I contacted The TEXAS STATE BUILDING CODE AND INSPECTIONS OFFICE @ Oak Cliff Municipal Center, 320 E. Jefferson Blvd. Room 118, Dallas, TX 75203 and asked how the code is to be interpreted.

Interpretation as follows:

Mr. McClay,

Thank you for your recent request for information regarding code and procedure for installing a Ceiling mounted fan in your garage. I have reviewed the code as well as spoken to a few of our in-house inspectors as I really can't say this is a question I have been asked before. Now to your answere, Yes you can mount your fan in your garage and allow it to be vented into your attic as long as you do not share an open attic with an ajoining home. Now after review of the type of fan you had linked in your E-Mail I would say that an inspection or permit is also not required for installation unless there is extensive electrical work involved "Wich I am told there is not" or unless it is of personal preference. You would not be in any violation of housing code or ordinance. Now as to your last question it would also not be in violation if you used said fan to remove any smoke build up that may occure while working in said garage as your attics vents will vent said fumes. Mind you I would suggest you use good common sense and caution if using fan for the pourpose of venting toxic fumes as it just does not seem safe. Anymore questions feel free to contact our office anytime.

Last edited by Brianm2004; 07-08-2009 at 03:24 PM.
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post #37 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
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Lol, I worked with my father doing HVAC for 7 years before joining the military my friend.

3) He leaves the a/c on, keeps the door between the garage and the house closed. Then the fan can not be used in this application because it then becomes a ventilation fan for the garage and by code, can not be discharged into the attic.


You dont quit understand, There is no code saying doors have to be open or wich rooms have to receive circulation. Its the same as if he had one in his bedroom and closed his door to the rest of his house.

BUT just to show your a complete fucktard and to help you realise that code is not up for interpretation as its meant to be followed as written I contacted The TEXAS STATE BUILDING CODE AND INSPECTIONS OFFICE @ Oak Cliff Municipal Center, 320 E. Jefferson Blvd. Room 118, Dallas, TX 75203 and asked how the code is to be interpreted.

Interpretation as follows:

Mr. McClay,

Thank you for your recent request for information regarding code and procedure for installing a Ceiling mounted fan in your garage. I have reviewed the code as well as spoken to a few of our in-house inspectors as I really can't say this is a question I have been asked before. Now to your answere, Yes you can mount your fan in your garage and allow it to be vented into your attic as long as you do not share an open attic with an ajoining home. Now after review of the type of fan you had linked in your E-Mail I would say that an inspection or permit is also not required for installation unless there is extensive electrical work involved "Wich I am told there is not" or unless it is of personal preference. You would not be in any violation of housing code or ordinance. Now as to your last question it would also not be in violation if you used said fan to remove any smoke build up that may occure while working in said garage as your attics vents will vent said fumes. Mind you I would suggest you use good common sense and caution if using fan for the pourpose of venting toxic fumes as it just does not seem safe. Anymore questions feel free to contact our office anytime.
you see, the code IS up for interpretation because what he suggested could be interpreted as violating the code by some people. Is statement is in direct contrast to other sections in the code. Refer to the secition, directly out of the Residental Code, you can not directly exhaust into the attic with anything except a whole-house ventilation-type fan, if it was being used for ventilation of the garage, than it is not being used for the whole house, unless you did one of the stupid options I listed. Not only that, but the code also prohibits using air from the garage as return air, there is a reason for that, so why push it back into your house through the attic? Makes a lot of sense to a complete fucking dolt like yourself I guess.

Regardless of the code issues, that 7 hears of brazing copper pipes and charging HVAC systems didn't give you any knowledge of why installing that fan is a horrible idea, which I explained twice, yet you didn't get it. Yeah, you win on the code issue, congratulations, you happen to interpret the residential code the same as some other people, but you are 100% off base on that being a good idea.

Stick to toating around guns in the desert, installing residential HVAC units and misspelling quite several fucking times, because that is all you are qualified to do, quit giving shitty adivce on things you know nothing about. You have no idea what effects installing a high powered fan basically inside the house would do because if you did, you would realize what a moron you are.

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post #38 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 03:24 PM
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Lol, I worked with my father doing HVAC for 7 years before joining the military my friend.

3) He leaves the a/c on, keeps the door between the garage and the house closed. Then the fan can not be used in this application because it then becomes a ventilation fan for the garage and by code, can not be discharged into the attic.


You dont quit understand, There is no code saying doors have to be open or wich rooms have to receive circulation. Its the same as if he had one in his bedroom and closed his door to the rest of his house.

BUT just to show your a complete fucktard and to help you realise that code is not up for interpretation as its meant to be followed as written I contacted The TEXAS STATE BUILDING CODE AND INSPECTIONS OFFICE @ Oak Cliff Municipal Center, 320 E. Jefferson Blvd. Room 118, Dallas, TX 75203 and asked how the code is to be interpreted.

Interpretation as follows:

Mr. McClay,

Thank you for your recent request for information regarding code and procedure for installing a Ceiling mounted fan in your garage. I have reviewed the code as well as spoken to a few of our in-house inspectors as I really can't say this is a question I have been asked before. Now to your answere, Yes you can mount your fan in your garage and allow it to be vented into your attic as long as you do not share an open attic with an ajoining home. Now after review of the type of fan you had linked in your E-Mail I would say that an inspection or permit is also not required for installation unless there is extensive electrical work involved "Wich I am told there is not" or unless it is of personal preference. You would not be in any violation of housing code or ordinance. Now as to your last question it would also not be in violation if you used said fan to remove any smoke build up that may occure while working in said garage as your attics vents will vent said fumes. Mind you I would suggest you use good common sense and caution if using fan for the pourpose of venting toxic fumes as it just does not seem safe. Anymore questions feel free to contact our office anytime.



Arguments between engineers and people with field experiece (although I think your father's a/c company doesn't really amount to shit in terms of YOUR experience, knowledge, or lack thereof) always make for A+++ entertainment.


With that out of the way, you don't seem to understand what he's saying. When you pull air out of a room, such as a garage, that air must be made up somewhere, or you have a vacuum. With no make up fan adding more air to the garage, it's going to pull air conditioned air out of the house, through the garage, and up in to the attic.
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post #39 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 03:47 PM
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I have this setup in my garage, I have both an AC vent from the house and a 14" fan mounted in the ceiling with a self closing vent, I have it vented to a 14" insulated hose that goes to a roof mounted turtle back. I crack my garage door about 3-4 inches and kick it on and it circulates the air through the garage. It works very well and does not pull any air from the inside of the home. I have been painting and using carb and brake clean and in the garage and before this was put in the wife screamed like crazy from the fumes in the house. I was going to vent in straight into the attick but I figured it was not good to pass the fumes from the chemicals in the garage through my attick in hopes it would all vent out. I had a sheetmetal company make me a flat plate with 14" circle about 6 inches tall and hung that from the roof under the turtle back vent, and had them make a box with the same circle for the fan and vent. I got the vent at grainger.

Total cost for everything was about 200.00, the fan and turtle back were the combo deal you get at home depot for around 80-100.
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post #40 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:09 PM
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I could be wrong but

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcoop View Post
Arguments between engineers and people with field experiece (although I think your father's a/c company doesn't really amount to shit in terms of YOUR experience, knowledge, or lack thereof) always make for A+++ entertainment.


With that out of the way, you don't seem to understand what he's saying. When you pull air out of a room, such as a garage, that air must be made up somewhere, or you have a vacuum. With no make up fan adding more air to the garage, it's going to pull air conditioned air out of the house, through the garage, and up in to the attic.
I don't think he ever had any intention of running a whole house type fan in the garage ceiling without the garage door open some for the makeup air.

written by the Oak Ridge
National Laboratory
Buildings Technology Center
for U.S. Department of
Energy

I think that trumps anything Studley might have to say:

A whole house fan is a simple and inexpensive method of cooling a house. The fan draws cool outdoor air inside through open windows and exhausts hot indoor air through the attic to the outside. Running a whole house fan whenever outdoor temperatures are lower than indoor temperatures will cool a house.

In summer, the air inside a home is heated during the hot part of the day. During the morning, late evening, and night, the outside air is often cooler and can be used to replace the inside air. Operating the whole house fan at these times will cool interior materials. As daytime temperatures rise, the whole house fan
can be turned off. The cool materials (along with ceiling or circulating fans, which create an additional cooling effect) will help keep the interior more comfortable.

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...rica/26291.pdf
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post #41 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
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I don't think he ever had any intention of running a whole house type fan in the garage ceiling without the garage door open some for the makeup air.

It wasn't specified, so I just took a guess. I know where both sides are coming from, it just seemed to me that the Brian dude wasn't fully getting what he was saying.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jyro View Post
A whole house fan is a simple and inexpensive method of cooling a house. The fan draws cool outdoor air inside through open windows and exhausts hot indoor air through the attic to the outside. Running a whole house fan whenever outdoor temperatures are lower than indoor temperatures will cool a house.

In summer, the air inside a home is heated during the hot part of the day. During the morning, late evening, and night, the outside air is often cooler and can be used to replace the inside air. Operating the whole house fan at these times will cool interior materials. As daytime temperatures rise, the whole house fan
can be turned off. The cool materials (along with ceiling or circulating fans, which create an additional cooling effect) will help keep the interior more comfortable.

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...rica/26291.pdf
I'm not arguing any of that.
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post #42 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyro View Post
I don't think he ever had any intention of running a whole house type fan in the garage ceiling without the garage door open some for the makeup air.

written by the Oak Ridge
National Laboratory
Buildings Technology Center
for U.S. Department of
Energy

I think that trumps anything Studley might have to say:

A whole house fan is a simple and inexpensive method of cooling a house. The fan draws cool outdoor air inside through open windows and exhausts hot indoor air through the attic to the outside. Running a whole house fan whenever outdoor temperatures are lower than indoor temperatures will cool a house.

In summer, the air inside a home is heated during the hot part of the day. During the morning, late evening, and night, the outside air is often cooler and can be used to replace the inside air. Operating the whole house fan at these times will cool interior materials. As daytime temperatures rise, the whole house fan
can be turned off. The cool materials (along with ceiling or circulating fans, which create an additional cooling effect) will help keep the interior more comfortable.

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...rica/26291.pdf
seriously? are you that fucking stupid? Not only does that say exactly what I said a whole house exhaust fan is supposed to do, it reiterates the fact that it is just flat out stupid as hell to do here in Texas. Did you even read it? You do realize that there are other parts of the country besides Texas? Why don't you check the low in the morning, I think it is supposed to be 76 degrees, now take that and use it as ventilation to cool your house at night where you would be lucky to get it 5* above that in the house, 81* fucking degrees, and you probably would have created a wind tunnel in your house to do so. Don't believe me? Take the tonnage of your a/c unit, multiply it by 12,000, divide by 1.08 and then again by 5 and tell me if you want that much air blowing through your house. It would probably suck your doors off the hinges, just to get a nice cool 81 degrees in the house during the coldest part of the night here in Texas. Congratulations on continuing to be a fuck tard.

Oh yea, and if you knew anything about the DOE, especially who is in charge out at Y-12, then you would know to take anything they say with a grain of salt.

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post #43 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:47 PM
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everybody is wrong but you, lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Studly View Post
Don't believe me? Take the tonnage of your a/c unit, multiply it by 12,000, divide by 1.08 and then again by 5 and tell me if you want that much air blowing through your house. It would probably suck your doors off the hinges, just to get a nice cool 81 degrees in the house during the coldest part of the night here in Texas
for my 2 1/2 ton unit that would be 5000 cfm
equal to this whole house fan
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3C374
no, it wouldn't even make my screens bow in with all the windows open. You assume the weather in Texas is always hot. Many mounths out of the year I don't use AC because my attic is vented great. As a matter of fact, I only use the AC from June to September the rest of the year the windows are open and the house is as cool or cooler than ambient. the wife and I are lucky not to have allergys, many can't do that or don't live in areas where they feel safe with windows open. Shade from trees and hedges also help to make a house cooler.

With cap and trade on the horizon a fan like this may be one of the only affordable options for cooling in the near future. sad isn't it

Last edited by jyro; 07-08-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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post #44 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
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for my 2 1/2 ton unit that would be 5000 cfm
equal to this whole house fan
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3C374
no, it wouldn't even make my screens bow in with all the windows open. You assume the weather in Texas is always hot. Many mounths out of the year I don't use AC because my attic is vented great. As a matter of fact, I only use the AC from June to September the rest of the year the windows are open and the house is as cool or cooler than ambient. the wife and I are lucky not to have allergys, many can't do that or don't live in areas where they feel safe with windows open. Shade from trees and hedges also help to make a house cooler
I was simply basing everything on the summer, since in the original question, he was talking about the garage being too hot, which would only happen in the summer. Running a whole house exhaust fan in the summer is 100% against its design intent and flat out stupid. The IECC does not require economizers (which is what a whole house vent fan is) on HVAC units in this climate zone for a reason, because they don't pay off. Ventilation only takes care of the sensible heat, in fact, often times, it increases the latent heat. That is another reason that venting for cooling in Texas is not a common practice.

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post #45 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 10:14 PM
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With cap and trade on the horizon a fan like this may be one of the only affordable options for cooling in the near future. sad isn't it
I think you will start seeing a new line of residential HVAC units with more intricate control systems. Economizers, different compressors options for unloading, some new technology that mimics hot gas by pass. They have already rolled out the new refrigeration, R-410, Puron, etc..which hurts the COP of the units actually because they aren't as efficient as R-22 or R-134a. The tree huggers want it both ways, save the environment with less efficient refrigerants yes they want you to reduce energy usage at the same time. Total contradiction in my opinion. Unfortunately for the masses, they are uninformed on how to actually save energy. They want to skimp on capital cost items to keep the initial hit to the wallet low or to keep the price of the home down, yet in the long run, they have a home that is very energy inefficient. People are cashing in on these tankless water heaters and radiant barriers because people are uninformed too. Because of the uninformed masses, we have these legislators, who are also uninformed trying to pass laws to correct the wrong problems. The problems should be fixed at the root problem, which is the building envelopes and mechanical equipment.

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post #46 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 10:27 PM
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Big Studly, I see what you are saying but you are being very myopic in your argument and I think that you are just sticking to it now because you are so far entrenched.

Of course the whole house fan would be stupid to use when the outside air is hotter than your desired indoor temp, but as already said, the idea is to use it when outside temps are cooler than your desired indoor temp. With the exception of the hottest 2 - 3 months you could actually get a lot of use out of it. Without that type of alternative I have to run my AC for 2-3 extra months per year where I could use the fan instead, which surely draws much less electricty.

As for the garage, it may still be a benefit in the heat of the summer, especially early in the day and into the evening. My garage is probably 90+ degrees right now while the outside air is 81. I can open my garage door but that doesn't bring very much air in without help. If I had one of those fans in the ceiling it would draw the air in and cool the garage down. That is even true if it is 105 outside during the day because during that time the garage is probably 110 plus. If anything it will create some airflow as opposed to no breeze (kind of like what Ceyko was saying he does with fans). In any case I can only see it as an improvement over doing nothing.

BTW, I wouldn't use one of the fans in my house only because I have a high efficiency AC system and dirt cheap electricty cost. It's going to be 72 degrees all summer with a monthly electricty bill under $200!

I like the idea for the garage though.

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post #47 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by White_lightning View Post
so more info

my computer room has a portable ACunit that vents hot air into the garage.. making it hotter then ambient. Im not so much looking to make the garage cool for when i work in there as to get that hot air out of it.. the garage was the only place i could vent this unit.
I would just dump that vent into the attic.

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post #48 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 11:50 PM
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Big Studly, I see what you are saying but you are being very myopic in your argument and I think that you are just sticking to it now because you are so far entrenched.

Of course the whole house fan would be stupid to use when the outside air is hotter than your desired indoor temp, but as already said, the idea is to use it when outside temps are cooler than your desired indoor temp. With the exception of the hottest 2 - 3 months you could actually get a lot of use out of it. Without that type of alternative I have to run my AC for 2-3 extra months per year where I could use the fan instead, which surely draws much less electricty.

As for the garage, it may still be a benefit in the heat of the summer, especially early in the day and into the evening. My garage is probably 90+ degrees right now while the outside air is 81. I can open my garage door but that doesn't bring very much air in without help. If I had one of those fans in the ceiling it would draw the air in and cool the garage down. That is even true if it is 105 outside during the day because during that time the garage is probably 110 plus. If anything it will create some airflow as opposed to no breeze (kind of like what Ceyko was saying he does with fans). In any case I can only see it as an improvement over doing nothing.

BTW, I wouldn't use one of the fans in my house only because I have a high efficiency AC system and dirt cheap electricty cost. It's going to be 72 degrees all summer with a monthly electricty bill under $200!

I like the idea for the garage though.
I don't think you do see what I am saying. My first suggestion was to use a wall fan in the garage, or something that would take the outside air directly into the garage and directly exhaust it outside, yes it would have a benefit. It still wouldn't be comfortable, but it would be a benefit. Where the argument started was to just put it in the ceiling and let it blow into the attic. There is no way to tell the repercussions of that. You would be drawing air from your house, blowing possibly contaminated air into your attic to be drawn back into the house since it is at a negative pressure, etc. Do you really think it is a good idea to draw air from inside your house to the hot ass garage, only to have it made back up by contaminated garage air, or 100+ degree air? I say 100+ degree air because he is probably going to want to use the garage in the summer.

Now to your numbers, a 9 degree difference and a 5 degree difference? The garage will NEVER get cooler than the outside air, so the actual temperature difference you would feel would be less than 9 degrees and 5 degrees respectfully. Is it really worth the cost and effort for that? Go ahead and say you can get the breeze effect from the fans....you can also do that with a $50 floor fan from Wal Mart.

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post #49 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 11:52 PM
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I would just dump that vent into the attic.
I am going to go out on a limb and say you didn't read any of this thread, or you are being tongue-in-cheek.

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post #50 of 57 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 06:21 AM
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Sooooo, back to my 3 fan implementation. With sweat feels like a 9.5* difference! No shit!

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