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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-31-2010, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Protecting someone elses property

So over the weekend, my girlfriends parents had a cookout. Her family was inside and her dad ran to the grocery store and was gone for 15 minutes. Left the garage open and some brown people stole a weedeater and a leaf blower from the garage. Her dad pulls up seeing the two guys in the garage trying to unhook the equipment from the wall hooks and he tried to box them in in the front of their car. They grab the equipment and run to their car. THey are able to back out and take off. He tried to write down the license plate but didnt read it right with all the excitement.

Anyways, my girlfriend and I got there literally 20 seconds to late. Her father was on the phone with the police.

Now being that I carry everyday, how does defending someone elses property come about? A POS leaf blower and a broken weadeater is not worth shooting and killing over, but I would have drawn and held them at gun point until the police arrived. When protecting someone elses property, do you just have to have an expressed consent? I have thought about this many times because when you go to someone elses house and you have a carry weapon, Im sure you can get in trouble if you used your weapon and the owner wished you didnt.

I know the old case where the older man shoots the two robbers next door because the police didnt come was ok, it was a legal kill. Did he have to have expressed consent from the neighbor.

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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 12:02 AM
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I'm pretty sure you would be Ok to draw your gun if they were stealing and the owner of the property was cool with it.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 12:06 AM Thread Starter
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While I appreciate the reply... I would draw regardless of owner consent. If they went in the house, Id have shot without hesitation because they are basically my family.

The problem comes down to say my next door neighbor is getting robbed...never talked to them about the situation. Knowing my neighbors, they would love for me to stop/shoot, but you never know without asking. What do you do when you go to relatives/coworkers/strangers/neighbors/etc?

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 12:25 AM
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Although they are your relatives/co-workers/strangers/neighbors, etc. The best thing to do is get a good description of the subjects and def get the description of the car and LP. That's the best way to avoid the courts and trying to defend yourself on why you shot some asshole who was afraid to go out and get a job to pay for his own shit.

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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 03:56 AM
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Family: Family that you know and trust, I suspect it is reasonable to do this action and be okay.

Friends/Neighbors: I made this decision during my CHL class, I'm not protecting someone else. Liability goes up too much. I may assist andother friend who has already drawn/shot (CHL or not), but I'm not going to be the primary trigger puller.

Hell, I have family (that were born and raised in Texas) that hate guns and don't have any. This is a situation where I'd be very hesitant to use a gun (we don't get along so as it is) to protect them and they are family. I would not put it past them to sue me after the fact.

I just noticed I did not answer your questions really. However, I think I was trying to say it really is null and void (at least to me) since these days the same people you're trying to help may testify that you murdered someone instead of helped them.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg View Post
While I appreciate the reply... I would draw regardless of owner consent. If they went in the house, Id have shot without hesitation because they are basically my family.

The problem comes down to say my next door neighbor is getting robbed...never talked to them about the situation. Knowing my neighbors, they would love for me to stop/shoot, but you never know without asking. What do you do when you go to relatives/coworkers/strangers/neighbors/etc?
You would be justified, but it would still be a hairy mess.

Look up Texas Penal Code Section 9.42. It outlines the use of deadly force in defense of property.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 09:29 AM
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I dont understand how you can carry, and still have doubts on what you can, and cannot do.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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I dont understand how you can carry, and still have doubts on what you can, and cannot do.
I have no doubt on stopping/shooting someone with a gun or a knife that is trying to hurt someone. Someone elses' property is a different story. Lets hear your expert opinion.

You cannot tell me you have the whole damn book memorized.

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, smartass...here it is from the penal code on deadly force:

Quote:
Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.
It says that you have to "believe" that the 3rd party has requested the consent. Now the word believe is open to interpretation. Does that mean they have to verbally express this, or can you believe that they would want you to?

I knew you can use deadly force...the question is consent.

Now 9.42 talks about protecting your own property with deadly force:
Quote:
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
So in 9.42, it would have justified killing 2 people inside the garage to protect property of a 3rd party on the belief that my father in law would have wanted me to stop people in his house. I wouldnt have, but it would have been legal

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 10:13 AM
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In my opinion you put too much thought into the situation.

All you need to do is go to the thieves car and put yourself between it and their escape. Make it so they can't get away. If they try to force you out of the way you can defend yourself. Defending yourself is a lot easier to justify than defending a weed eater.

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 10:32 AM
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In this situation I think you have answered your own question, with the backing of several experts in this thread

A) It is not worth taking someones life (despite them being a low-down dirtbag) over hand-held lawn equipment

B) You are justified as long as you know your FIL is not an anti-gun nut, the "believe" clause would probably fly in court

C) You would have made the right choice (to me) by drawing down and putting out the "stop" hand motion and telling them to kiss pavement and they would get the picture.

To me, you have a cool head on your shoulders.




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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg View Post
I have no doubt on stopping/shooting someone with a gun or a knife that is trying to hurt someone. Someone elses' property is a different story. Lets hear your expert opinion.

You cannot tell me you have the whole damn book memorized.
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Originally Posted by 8mpg View Post
Ok, smartass...here it is from the penal code on deadly force:



It says that you have to "believe" that the 3rd party has requested the consent. Now the word believe is open to interpretation. Does that mean they have to verbally express this, or can you believe that they would want you to?

I knew you can use deadly force...the question is consent.

Now 9.42 talks about protecting your own property with deadly force:


So in 9.42, it would have justified killing 2 people inside the garage to protect property of a 3rd party on the belief that my father in law would have wanted me to stop people in his house. I wouldnt have, but it would have been legal
I'm expert, and a smartass?

If i had a CHL, yes, I would know EXACTLY when to, or when not to, pull it out.
"memorizing the whole damn book" or knowing the sections that pertain to deadly force isnt much of a huge task. As a matter of fact, it should be your duty as a CHL holder, to know the law.

Or, you could always live by: "When in doubt, whip it out"

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 11:28 AM
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So over the weekend, my girlfriends parents had a cookout. Her family was inside and her dad ran to the grocery store and was gone for 15 minutes. Left the garage open and some brown people stole a weedeater and a leaf blower from the garage. Her dad pulls up seeing the two guys in the garage trying to unhook the equipment from the wall hooks and he tried to box them in in the front of their car. They grab the equipment and run to their car. THey are able to back out and take off. He tried to write down the license plate but didnt read it right with all the excitement.

Anyways, my girlfriend and I got there literally 20 seconds to late. Her father was on the phone with the police.

Now being that I carry everyday, how does defending someone elses property come about? A POS leaf blower and a broken weadeater is not worth shooting and killing over, but I would have drawn and held them at gun point until the police arrived. When protecting someone elses property, do you just have to have an expressed consent? I have thought about this many times because when you go to someone elses house and you have a carry weapon, Im sure you can get in trouble if you used your weapon and the owner wished you didnt.

I know the old case where the older man shoots the two robbers next door because the police didnt come was ok, it was a legal kill. Did he have to have expressed consent from the neighbor.

Did this happen to be in Park Meadows in Crowley? Someone came by my house yesterday evening to let us know to keep the garage door closed because those items had been stolen out of their garage. And if so there has been alot of strange people roaming the neighborhood this last week or so.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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I'm expert, and a smartass?

If i had a CHL, yes, I would know EXACTLY when to, or when not to, pull it out.
"memorizing the whole damn book" or knowing the sections that pertain to deadly force isnt much of a huge task. As a matter of fact, it should be your duty as a CHL holder, to know the law.

Or, you could always live by: "When in doubt, whip it out"
Have you ever read laws? They are somewhat complicated in their writings and often refer to other sections that define areas and parameters. The deadly force section is 13+pages and there is just no way you can memorize the whole thing. All the sections and subsections and clauses to the subsections is just not something you can memorize every bit of. You think cops memorize it?

The comment doubting my abilities to carry without knowing everything is ridiculous. Do you know all the laws and statutes of driving a vehicle? No, you know the basics and try and abide by them the best you can.

I understand the basics of the CHL law but if you read though it, you cannot know it all. Also, as stated above, parts of it are open to interpretation.

edit/// The deadly force section is 13 or so pages, the CHL booklet with all the laws including the definitions and laws concerning the CHL with the deadly force statuates is 73 pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90stang View Post
Did this happen to be in Park Meadows in Crowley? Someone came by my house yesterday evening to let us know to keep the garage door closed because those items had been stolen out of their garage. And if so there has been alot of strange people roaming the neighborhood this last week or so.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 12:02 PM
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I'm expert, and a smartass?

If i had a CHL, yes, I would know EXACTLY when to, or when not to, pull it out.
"memorizing the whole damn book" or knowing the sections that pertain to deadly force isnt much of a huge task. As a matter of fact, it should be your duty as a CHL holder, to know the law.

Or, you could always live by: "When in doubt, whip it out"

I'm sure you've never given it any real consideration, because if you had, you'd know that use of force or deadly force is never black and white and that it isn't just a simple matter of memorizing statutes.

Just because the law appears to say one thing doesn't mean you won't be prosecuted involving the use of weapons - whether you actually shoot [at] someone or not. There are huge grey areas that aren't clear. That's why people hire expensive lawyers to argue these things in court when folks don't agree on what the law says.

I think the sentiment is wise; it is good to have a really clear idea of what you would do in a variety of situations. But thinking you will know exactly what to do when something actually happens is unlikely. The best thing is to ask questions, like the OP did, and get feedback from people with varied perspectives on how to handle things.



To the OP,

Liability issues and legal entanglements can far outweigh any perceived good you might have done by engaging the thieves. In situations like that it's probably best to just let the stuff go and be "a good witness". Any number of things can go wrong if you engage, including shooting someone innocent, or causing property damage that costs more to fix than what you are trying to protect, not to mention potential legal costs.

For me, it is almost a matter of fiscal responsibility to not get involved unless lives are at stake. But then that's grey too.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 12:08 PM
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I wouldn't draw for a neighbor unless his life was in danger. Having said that, if you and the neighbor are cool with each other and have had gun-chat, that'd be another matter. I've watched some neighbors homes before (they go on vacation) and asked flat out if they wanted me to defend their home, just so there's no doubt.

With your FIL, if they didn't respond to oral commands, I probably would have drawn. Random neighbor, probably not.

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 12:12 PM
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 06:25 PM
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In my opinion you put too much thought into the situation.

All you need to do is go to the thieves car and put yourself between it and their escape. Make it so they can't get away. If they try to force you out of the way you can defend yourself. Defending yourself is a lot easier to justify than defending a weed eater.
This seems like the simplest solution but you could also end up kissing an axle.

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 07:50 PM
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This seems like the simplest solution but you could also end up kissing an axle.
Yeah, or a prosecutor having a field day since you decided to escalate the situation....

If YOUR property, or someones life isnt on the line, its not worth the risk of jail time.


THAT is one of the main reasons I never leave my garage unattended, only takes a second for some crackheads to get stupid and steal some shit...

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 10:34 PM
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The key phrase they teach in the military is "deadly force." Do you really think this situation requires the use of deadly force? If the answer is yes, then by all means draw. If the answer is no, start finding other options.
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:49 AM
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You would be justified, but it would still be a hairy mess.

Look up Texas Penal Code Section 9.42. It outlines the use of deadly force in defense of property.
Hey Matt wouldnt deadly force be shooting them? Not holding them up on your own property at gunpoint? For example... Someone breaks in to my home, and I hold them until police arrive with a firearm.. is that deadly force?

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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 07:43 AM
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If I were put into that particular situation, I would have drawn and used that threat to try and stop the theft. If they were to flee, I would holster and pursue while calling the police. If they were to attack, then a double tap is in order.

The biggest problem with this particular scenario is that the property being protected ("POS weed eater and leaf blower") weren't worth the hassle/risk of defending yourself in court over the use of deadly force.

Also, my guess is that this took place in daylight, and the laws on the use of deadly force [in protecting property] change exponentially between day and night time.


David
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 08:02 AM
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If I were put into that particular situation, I would have drawn and used that threat to try and stop the theft. If they were to flee, I would holster and pursue while calling the police. If they were to attack, then a double tap is in order.

The biggest problem with this particular scenario is that the property being protected ("POS weed eater and leaf blower") weren't worth the hassle/risk of defending yourself in court over the use of deadly force.

Also, my guess is that this took place in daylight, and the laws on the use of deadly force [in protecting property] change exponentially between day and night time.


David
Pretty much my thought as well, it's a frickin' weed-eater. Call me liberal or whatever, but that's not something to be shot for. Though I do agree with Allan's plan of attack to a point, IT'S A FRICKIN' WEED-EATER. Not worth putting myself in harm's way. Let them have it.

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 08:28 AM
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Pretty much my thought as well, it's a frickin' weed-eater. Call me liberal or whatever, but that's not something to be shot for. Though I do agree with Allan's plan of attack to a point, IT'S A FRICKIN' WEED-EATER. Not worth putting myself in harm's way. Let them have it.
You gotta lay down the law man. Anything stolen is worth something, so hence a shot is in order. That way thieves get smart and decide to do something else for income. Drug dealing for example. That way the penalties are harsher and cops are more on their ass.

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 10:17 AM
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Pretty much my thought as well, it's a frickin' weed-eater. Call me liberal or whatever, but that's not something to be shot for. Though I do agree with Allan's plan of attack to a point, IT'S A FRICKIN' WEED-EATER. Not worth putting myself in harm's way. Let them have it.
I couldn't agree further.
You have to pick and choose your fights
this just isn't one of them
now would i bring a gun and keep it concealed?
Yes, almost definitely, and even maybe intervene given enough time to react
but I would not pull it for this, or give chase.
friggin A, even the cops can barely arrest for this, it's like 50 bucks worth of stuff, maybe 200 at most if they were new

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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If I were put into that particular situation, I would have drawn and used that threat to try and stop the theft. If they were to flee, I would holster and pursue while calling the police. If they were to attack, then a double tap is in order.

The biggest problem with this particular scenario is that the property being protected ("POS weed eater and leaf blower") weren't worth the hassle/risk of defending yourself in court over the use of deadly force.

Also, my guess is that this took place in daylight, and the laws on the use of deadly force [in protecting property] change exponentially between day and night time.


David
Im with you...Like I said, I wouldnt have ever killed someone over a weedeater, just draw to detain until police arrive.

THe night/day law only comes to theft... I would think this would be considered burglary due to the fact he was inside the house. I dunno..This just brings me back to the whole situation with the old guy that shot the two burglars in broad day light in the back I believe and it was justified. Was it worth killing two people...probably not, but without laws to protect your property and the extension of protecting your neighbors, people would be robbing everyone.

Now a question for everyone...at what value of stolen property is shooting justified? If someone is stealing 10,000 in jewelry... is it now ok? Honestly, I wouldnt ever shoot someone over theft outside of the house unless they have a weapon or I feel like Im in danger. Someone is inside your house with or without a weapon, it would be scary shit and I would probably blast away.

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:13 PM
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Im with you...Like I said, I wouldnt have ever killed someone over a weedeater, just draw to detain until police arrive.

THe night/day law only comes to theft... I would think this would be considered burglary due to the fact he was inside the house. I dunno..This just brings me back to the whole situation with the old guy that shot the two burglars in broad day light in the back I believe and it was justified. Was it worth killing two people...probably not, but without laws to protect your property and the extension of protecting your neighbors, people would be robbing everyone.

Now a question for everyone...at what value of stolen property is shooting justified? If someone is stealing 10,000 in jewelry... is it now ok? Honestly, I wouldnt ever shoot someone over theft outside of the house unless they have a weapon or I feel like Im in danger. Someone is inside your house with or without a weapon, it would be scary shit and I would probably blast away.
I personally am a wuss, property isn't worth killing/dying for. Even a 20k+ car.

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P View Post
In my opinion you put too much thought into the situation.

All you need to do is go to the thieves car and put yourself between it and their escape. Make it so they can't get away. If they try to force you out of the way you can defend yourself. Defending yourself is a lot easier to justify than defending a weed eater.
[x] This!


They were thieves...shoot the fuckers. When the police arrive, "you believed you were in danger upon stumbling across the THIEVES ROBBING the home and would like to have a lawyer present before any further statements."

Then pat yourself on the back for removing two worthless pieces of shit from our planet.

Just don't shoot them in the back or the hand and you will get a No Bill. If it's at night, game changes in your favor too....just make sure previously mentioned broken weedeater is still in their hand or on their person/dead body.

That is the version the Plano police have given me in the past when dealing with an attempted burglary at my place.


Oh, and keep the damn Garage door closed!



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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 01:28 PM
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Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg View Post
.

Now a question for everyone...at what value of stolen property is shooting justified? If someone is stealing 10,000 in jewelry... is it now ok? Honestly, I wouldnt ever shoot someone over theft outside of the house unless they have a weapon or I feel like Im in danger. Someone is inside your house with or without a weapon, it would be scary shit and I would probably blast away.
From a legal aspect, I haven't seen any wording showing a set limit on lethal force when protecting property.

That said, I've "heard" (pinch of salt) that there is no value limit spelled out, so if someone is taking [anything] from your car or home - at night, it may then be justified. Lot's of gray area for sure.


David
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 02:19 PM
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If your gonna shoot at someone for stealing something ONLY, might as well be 10K dollars.
if you have to make up some theoretical number....
Because that's how much it's gonna cost you to retain a lawyer when they are dead or injured.
Don't believe me , blast away then! I'm not gonna retain a blood sucking lawyer for you over my property.
shouldn't have shot at them unless you felt threatened.
I doubt any of my neighbors would want me to shoot through their car being stolen!
well maybe one of them!

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