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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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Time for new optics...need collective thoughts

Well, I've decided that I need a little more range on my scope than my Leupold Vari-X III 2.5x10 can supply. The rifle is my 24" .223 AR-15, and because it's a .223 the 10x magnification makes my target hits just barely visible, you really have to strain to see them. I usually don't have someone to sit on my spotting scope, and I'd rather not have to depend on one. The rifle is capable of more, so the scope is lacking. Also I've had some issues with eye relief and I've never quite been pleased with it on my rifle. Also the scope does not have turrets which is something I'd really like to have for windage adjustments. The price of sending the scope back to Leupold to install turrents exceeds what I'm willing to spend on 10x magnification, so I've decided it's best to get a new scope.

I'd like to know what you guys would suggest moving up to. I'm looking for quality optics that are durable. At the moment I'm looking at upgrading to a Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 LR/T. I've also been looking at the taller Nikon Monarch-X's, and Swarovski's. Size and weight don't concern me too much, the rifle is already pretty heavy.

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/prod...1-front-focal/

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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 01:48 PM
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What's your main use? bench/target?
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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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What's your main use? bench/target?
It's a hunting rifle which usually only does bench/target shooting. At least, that's what I tell myself. I do take it hunting regularly, but usually end up walking around with it for several miles, haha.
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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 03:04 PM
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A 4.5-14x scope covers a lot of territory for general hunting. But is lacking over 100 yards for target shooting.

I talked to a guy on youtube that used the Leupold Mk IV 4.5-14x scope for 600 yard shooting with his Rem 700 PSS. He said it was plenty.

The varmint/target scope 6-20x or 8-32x are hard to sight in 50-100 yards shots.
Leupold adjustable MK IV scopes have reputation of problematic controls for the cost.

1000 yard F t/r champ of Britain use Leupold 8.5-25x VXIII scope to win. Also, he uses a Choate (cheap comparatively) stock in his 32in barreled 308 Win.

Sightron is big up and comer in Target shooting. SIII Big Sky.
Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20 is a 1in scope that is bad ass.

Burris and Leupold make medium height turrets for hunting that are easy to adjust.

Weaver 36x is 400$. I was told by bench shooter to get from Bruno Shooter Supply and have Lester Bruno hand pick the Weaver, as QC can be lacking, but a good one is a good one. If you wanted to run 2 scopes, just get some quick release rings.

Burris quick release have worked well for me, although on the AR, they can interfere somewhat, with a brass catcher. I use them to swap between YHM iron sights and scope.

Recommendation: Burris Black Diamond or Sightron SIII in 6.5-24 or 8.5-32x. For < 800$ plus rings.

or get some quick release rings and use the current scope for hunting and Weaver 36x for target. 500$ including rings.

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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 04:35 PM
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CJ,

20x is a LOT on a .223. The scope is going to outsee what the rifle can shoot.

I'd stick with a 14-15 range, but ultimately it's your choice.

I need to let you shoot my 4.5-15x Nightforce out at Alpine. Granted 100 yards is child's play, but you can get a feel for the magification.
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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 04:51 PM
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Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20 is a 1in scope that is bad ass.
I looked through this scope yesterday on a friends .308. His had a RapidZ reticle and was a damn fine scope. The 1k price tag is a high ticket of admission, but it's on my shopping list for 2010.

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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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CJ,

20x is a LOT on a .223. The scope is going to outsee what the rifle can shoot.

I'd stick with a 14-15 range, but ultimately it's your choice.

I need to let you shoot my 4.5-15x Nightforce out at Alpine. Granted 100 yards is child's play, but you can get a feel for the magification.
I can barely see hits at 100 yards at 10x, I'd like to take a look at your nightforce for sure. Currently at 400+ yards I simply cannot be effective without more magnification.
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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 05:03 PM
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I have had good luck with Nightforce. You can score them used at a good price on Ebay. Are you just trying to see the hit on paper or do you need more magnification for a longer range shot? I don't shoot .223 at long ranges so I am not sure what it would take to see the hole at 500m or so. With a 20x I can see my hits with a .308 if I use those targets that flake off some ink around the hole.
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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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I have had good luck with Nightforce. You can score them used at a good price on Ebay. Are you just trying to see the hit on paper or do you need more magnification for a longer range shot? I don't shoot .223 at long ranges so I am not sure what it would take to see the hole at 500m or so. With a 20x I can see my hits with a .308 if I use those targets that flake off some ink around the hole.
I built the rifle to be very long range, and my loads are capable of that accuracy, but not my optics. I'd like to see the hits on paper, I can barely see them with a 10x at 100 yards. I want a 20x for out to 500+ yards.
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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 07:26 PM
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I built the rifle to be very long range, and my loads are capable of that accuracy, but not my optics. I'd like to see the hits on paper, I can barely see them with a 10x at 100 yards. I want a 20x for out to 500+ yards.
Spotting scope?
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post #11 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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Spotting scope?
I have one, I just rarely have someone to spot me. I see no reason to avoid having magnification if it's there?
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post #12 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:13 PM
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With the technology today there is nothing wrong at all with a 4-16 or 5-20 scope. Or if you spend the big bucks the 2.5-16. I like you like to be able to see very clearly my target at 100 yards. My AR is wearing a 16.5x and my .308 a 16x both rifles are hunting rifles so I'm not sure why you'd want less power. As long as you know the range you are attempting to shoot you should be fine.

I still can't justify anywhere near that kind of money as the MARK iV but to each his own. My ar is shooting 1/2" groups with my cheapo Monarch i paid $260 for.
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post #13 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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I still can't justify anywhere near that kind of money as the MARK iV but to each his own. My ar is shooting 1/2" groups with my cheapo Monarch i paid $260 for.
It's the quality of the glass, light transmission - Being able to see a few hundred yards out in pitch black is something you can only do with good glass.
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post #14 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:25 PM
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The Bushnell Elite 4200 and 6500 are supposed to be one of the brightest scopes as far as light gathering capabillities. I have also been looking into the Counter Sniper scopes they are supposed to be pretty good also.
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post #15 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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The Bushnell Elite 4200 and 6500 are supposed to be one of the brightest scopes as far as light gathering capabillities. I have also been looking into the Counter Sniper scopes they are supposed to be pretty good also.
Hmm, I've never quite trusted Bushnell scopes, I've had some bad experiences with them. However, I do use a bushnell spotting scope and binoculars. Does anyone own one of these scopes to give an opinion on?


On another note - here is some glass I'd love to own:



Doesn't matter how much cash you have, you probably couldn't get one :/
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post #16 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:45 PM
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I have several of the 3200 elite's between me and my dad and as far as I'm concerened they hands down beat Leopold at a cheaper price. They are extremely bright and the 4200 and 6500 are supposed to be even brighter.
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post #17 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:47 PM
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Hmm, I've never quite trusted Bushnell scopes, I've had some bad experiences with them. However, I do use a bushnell spotting scope and binoculars. Does anyone own one of these scopes to give an opinion on?


On another note - here is some glass I'd love to own:



Doesn't matter how much cash you have, you probably couldn't get one :/
What kind of scope is that? The writing on top makes me think Ziess or S&B.
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post #18 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:50 PM
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I'm interested in this thread too. Thinking about a Remington 700 SPS tactical .223, mainly for range use @ 100yds.

No idea what kind of scope to get, but would like to keep it under 300. Maybe it's lame, but I also do like the long scopes.
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post #19 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:57 PM
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My SPS-t is wearing a bushnell 4200 4-16x40mm scope.

Glass is amazingly clear. Not a huge difference on the light transmission compared to the monarch though. Haven't had it real long but traded a stripped down model 1 upper for it and I think I got a great deal.

I just don't see how that leupold is going to improve 600 dollars scope wise and that is while I'll keep shooting for the 300 dollar range scopes and adding more guns to the safe.
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post #20 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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What kind of scope is that? The writing on top makes me think Ziess or S&B.
It's a Hensoldt ZF 4-16x56mm FF, Zeiss's military only division.

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I just don't see how that leupold is going to improve 600 dollars scope wise and that is while I'll keep shooting for the 300 dollar range scopes and adding more guns to the safe.
I have enough guns in my safe, i'm now concerned with the quality. I usually abide by the old saying you should spend the same on your optics as you do on your rifle. I have yet to really see some optics that are impressive, I suppose camera quality glass has made me a little hard to please. My Vari-X III is a good scope, it has excellent light transmission, but it doesn't have enough magnification. I'm looking to have the tools necessary to hit paper at 1000 yards - that's what I've been after for some time.
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post #21 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 09:03 PM
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I've had a vari-x iii 4.5-14 on my .308 and the bushnell is a significant improvement in the right direction.
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post #22 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 09:04 PM
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It's a Hensoldt ZF 4-16x56mm FF, Zeiss's military only division.



I have enough guns in my safe, i'm now concerned with the quality. I usually abide by the old saying you should spend the same on your optics as you do on your rifle. I have yet to really see some optics that are impressive, I suppose camera quality glass has made me a little hard to please. My Vari-X III is a good scope, it has excellent light transmission, but it doesn't have enough magnification.
I thought they looked like Zeiss markings.
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post #23 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 09:11 PM
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My SPS-t is wearing a bushnell 4200 4-16x40mm scope.

Glass is amazingly clear. Not a huge difference on the light transmission compared to the monarch though. Haven't had it real long but traded a stripped down model 1 upper for it and I think I got a great deal.

I just don't see how that leupold is going to improve 600 dollars scope wise and that is while I'll keep shooting for the 300 dollar range scopes and adding more guns to the safe.
Not a bad deal at all... the cheapest I see them is at about 400. Do you have pics of your setup?
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post #24 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 09:17 PM
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post #25 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 09:24 PM
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Thats a pretty good deal but I don't think its as good as the one you got.
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post #26 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 09:52 PM
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Not a bad deal at all... the cheapest I see them is at about 400. Do you have pics of your setup?







this rifle is on its 5th scope slowly upgrading each time.
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post #27 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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http://www.snipercentral.com/bushnell4200.phtml

Here is a review of the 4200. Unfortunately what i've read (and this review also confirms) it lacks the vertical compensation for long range shooting, it requires a canted base and then it just barely has enough. For shorter range shooting it appears to be a good scope.
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post #28 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-20-2009, 11:24 PM
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this rifle is on its 5th scope slowly upgrading each time.
Looks very nice, thank you for posting up the pics.

I'm looking around budsgunshop right now trying to get some ideas. I figure if I drop a little more on the setup and push back the handgun, then maybe I won't have to upgrade later.

Overkill for a SPS .223? http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/41984

I really like the look of a long scope on a tactical rifle. I don't want to have something just for show though, I want it to be able to perform at the range, pending my own skills.
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post #29 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 01:05 AM Thread Starter
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I like Nikon scopes, I've never had the opportunity to look at their tactical higher end scopes, I think I might take a trip to see one first hand. Does CTD carry the higher end Nikon scopes, or only the mid range Monarchs?
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post #30 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 01:29 AM Thread Starter
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Here is a new player in the game as of late - Premier

http://www.snipercentral.com/premier525.phtml

Now that is a very nice piece of glass.
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post #31 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 05:18 AM
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I'm looking to have the tools necessary to hit paper at 1000 yards - that's what I've been after for some time.
That sentence is somewhat of an oxymoron. "1000 yards" and ".223 Remington" just don't go together.

At 1000 yards, the trajectory of a .223 is going to be more than -100" and maybe 250 lb-ft of energy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0

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post #32 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 05:22 AM
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Here is a new player in the game as of late - Premier

http://www.snipercentral.com/premier525.phtml

Now that is a very nice piece of glass.
For $2700 it better be!
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post #33 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 12:35 PM
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After shooting your rifle, I don't think your are going to be satisfied with a 14x scope. Also a fan of Nikon scopes, but have don't have any trigger time with any of their high end stuff. I would check out SWFA in Red Oak and see what they have.
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post #34 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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That sentence is somewhat of an oxymoron. "1000 yards" and ".223 Remington" just don't go together.

At 1000 yards, the trajectory of a .223 is going to be more than -100" and maybe 250 lb-ft of energy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0
On a regular AR yes it would. I built this one for those kinds of ranges. It is well capable of 1000 yard accuracy. I plan on shooting it in the 1000 yard F class, in which their are numerous AR-15's competing. Currently I'm using 80 gr JLK VLD's with a measured muzzle velocity of 2978fps, all the way up to 90gr VLD's for magazine feed, and 105/110 breach loads. I'm separated off from the bolt guns, but they are also shooting 1moa @ 1000 yards w/ a .223 Savage 12FVSS.

I enjoyed the video, he is shooting a similar rifle to mine, I have a little heavier barrel than the DPMS super bull - and he's shooting relatively accurate a ~900 yards. It's certainly attainable.

I am shooting a Sabre Defense 24" heavy bench target rifle. http://www.sabredefence.com/commercial.php You can find the specs on their page here.

Last edited by CJ; 12-21-2009 at 02:01 PM.
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post #35 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 01:27 PM
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That sentence is somewhat of an oxymoron. "1000 yards" and ".223 Remington" just don't go together.

At 1000 yards, the trajectory of a .223 is going to be more than -100" and maybe 250 lb-ft of energy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0
80gr and 90gr .223 Remington compete and win, when no wind is present, against 308 Win at 1000 yards in F t/r class.

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post #36 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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After shooting your rifle, I don't think your are going to be satisfied with a 14x scope. Also a fan of Nikon scopes, but have don't have any trigger time with any of their high end stuff. I would check out SWFA in Red Oak and see what they have.
I'm also thinking a 14x scope on this rifle would again leave me in the same situation with the gun out-shooting the optics. And when you're shooting long range like I plan on, you really need to buy some good equipment, or you'll just burn money and get frustrated on the bench. I'm going to need a large diameter scope tube to accommodate the drop of a .223 at long ranges, which generally means I'm going to be spending some money. I'd like to try out Matt's Nightforce @ 15x and see how it looks.
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post #37 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 02:14 PM
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On a regular AR yes it would. I built this one for those kinds of ranges. It is well capable of 1000 yard accuracy. I plan on shooting it in the 1000 yard F class, in which their are numerous AR-15's competing. Currently I'm using 80 gr JLK VLD's with a measured muzzle velocity of 2978fps, all the way up to 90gr VLD's for magazine feed, and 105/110 breach loads. I'm separated off from the bolt guns, but they are also shooting 1moa @ 1000 yards w/ a .223 Savage 12FVSS.

I enjoyed the video, he is shooting a similar rifle to mine, I have a little heavier barrel than the DPMS super bull - and he's shooting relatively accurate a ~900 yards. It's certainly attainable.

I am shooting a Sabre Defense 24" heavy bench target rifle. http://www.sabredefence.com/commercial.php You can find the specs on their page here.
I guess I didn't fully understand the specs of your AR, and how heavy you were going with the projectiles.

For the mere mortal run-of-the-mill AR, a 1k yard shot is a pipe dream.

Hell, even in the Marines, the M16 is effective at up to 800 yards on an area target.
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post #38 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 02:15 PM
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I'm also thinking a 14x scope on this rifle would again leave me in the same situation with the gun out-shooting the optics. And when you're shooting long range like I plan on, you really need to buy some good equipment, or you'll just burn money and get frustrated on the bench. I'm going to need a large diameter scope tube to accommodate the drop of a .223 at long ranges, which generally means I'm going to be spending some money. I'd like to try out Matt's Nightforce @ 15x and see how it looks.

If you ever want to borrow it, come by the house. I'll clean it up and break out the pelican case. You can take it to Alpine if you want.

Hell, if I trust you with a $3,200 lens, you are more than welcome to my PSS.
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post #39 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 04:19 PM
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Do hear a range day this week?

CJ I have a Mark IV 6.5-24x50 on my .308 700 that you can take a look at.
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post #40 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 05:26 PM
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Nightforce with a Uni Mount
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post #41 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Do hear a range day this week?

CJ I have a Mark IV 6.5-24x50 on my .308 700 that you can take a look at.
Now that I am interested in - the exact scope I was looking at. What do you think of it?
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post #42 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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If you ever want to borrow it, come by the house. I'll clean it up and break out the pelican case. You can take it to Alpine if you want.

Hell, if I trust you with a $3,200 lens, you are more than welcome to my PSS.
LOL, I think I'd rather coerce you into actually coming out to shoot with me - you need to get out of the house more!
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post #43 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 07:12 PM
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Now that I am interested in - the exact scope I was looking at. What do you think of it?
I liked it until I shot my Dad's US Optics but that is to be expected. You will have a hard time comparing a $1500 scope to a $2500 one.

When is the range day?
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post #44 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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I liked it until I shot my Dad's US Optics but that is to be expected. You will have a hard time comparing a $1500 scope to a $2500 one.

When is the range day?
Hmm, yeah I'm thinking I'll probably end up spending that kind of money. If you plan on upgrading to a US optics some day, maybe we can work something out with that Mark IV, help you fund a new scope.

Last edited by CJ; 12-21-2009 at 07:27 PM.
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post #45 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ View Post
LOL, I think I'd rather coerce you into actually coming out to shoot with me - you need to get out of the house more!
That's the fukking problem. I'm never home. I spend all my time working and can't even enjoy my own house.

With that said, I'd love to take the .308 out and play.

Last edited by 03trubluGT; 12-21-2009 at 07:56 PM.
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post #46 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-21-2009, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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That's the fukking problem. I'm never home. I spend all my time working and can't even enjoy my own house.

With that said, I'd love to take the .308 out and play.
I hear that, I spend all day working, and when I get off I come home and work on stuff. haha
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post #47 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-22-2009, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ View Post
I hear that, I spend all day working, and when I get off I come home and work on stuff. haha
Single much?
lol

I was just thinking about how some of you guys posses knowledge of guns/optics etc.. is impressive, very impressive in fact, and it would take me years to even get close to that. I would be so kicked out of the house, I could apply for an internship as monk.

I know which end the bullet goes in and which end it comes out, and that about sums up my knowledge in one statement.
And BTW - whenz range day?


David
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post #48 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-22-2009, 10:42 AM
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Single much?
lol

I was just thinking about how some of you guys posses knowledge of guns/optics etc.. is impressive, very impressive in fact, and it would take me years to even get close to that. I would be so kicked out of the house, I could apply for an internship as monk.

I know which end the bullet goes in and which end it comes out, and that about sums up my knowledge in one statement.
And BTW - whenz range day?


David
when??

I am in town until next Wednesday.....damn blood pressure meds have to get okay'd by my medical department before I can fly back.
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post #49 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-22-2009, 10:52 AM
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when??

I am in town until next Wednesday.....damn blood pressure meds have to get okay'd by my medical department before I can fly back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Patton
Blood pressure, what blood pressure? Get back in that hole sissy!!!
LOL

I'd love to get some more range time before Sean & I take the CHL class, but that's on Tuesday the 29th, and I have an extremely busy schedule with helping move my fiancÚ's flower shop the next two weeks.

I'll see if I can break away on the weekend or maybe Monday.
Will let you know. You can invite pops too, if he wants to go again.


David
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post #50 of 76 (permalink) Old 12-22-2009, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cobrajet69 View Post
LOL

I'd love to get some more range time before Sean & I take the CHL class, but that's on Tuesday the 29th, and I have an extremely busy schedule with helping move my fiancÚ's flower shop the next two weeks.

I'll see if I can break away on the weekend or maybe Monday.
Will let you know. You can invite pops too, if he wants to go again.


David
Pops went back to Florida where he belongs.

I would love to get back into the hole........I am not making any money sitting on my ass.

I think it is written somewhere in the Man Laws "Men are not allowed to work in flower shops"

As far as optics go, I will bring the .308 with the Mark IV on it.
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