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post #1 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Stupid cop

This fat fuckstick is calling a Mossberg pump an "assault weapon".

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/loca...Chief_Guns_NRA

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post #2 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 09:56 AM
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well can u assult someone with it?? and it is a weapon??

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post #3 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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well can u assult someone with it?? and it is a weapon??
Let me get my frying pan out!

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post #4 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:07 AM
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post #5 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:09 AM
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What a dumb ass, but that is somewhat redundant since he is in New Jersey. Sometimes New Jersey makes California look sane. If it makes no sense then one can figure (as a default) it comes from New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, California, and Chicago. It's not just guns either. Texas may not be perfect but I am sooooo fortunate not to live in those states.

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post #6 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:20 AM
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He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else is. I completely disagree with him however.

I will never understand someone thinking "illegal" guns being used in a crime will be solved by taking "legal" guns off the street.

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post #7 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else is. I completely disagree with him however.

I will never understand someone thinking "illegal" guns being used in a crime will be solved by taking "legal" guns off the street.
When an "opinion" is just wrong ( any college student in a logic course could figure this one out) or it done on purpose to distort things for political reasons then I do not think he is entitled to his opinion as it then become unethical and possibly harmful to the public. This goes double for someone in public service, and triple for those in Law Enforcement.


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post #8 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:55 AM
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I agree!
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post #9 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
He's entitled to his opinion just like everyone else is. I completely disagree with him however.

I will never understand someone thinking "illegal" guns being used in a crime will be solved by taking "legal" guns off the street.
Well put.

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Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
When an "opinion" is just wrong ( any college student in a logic course could figure this one out) or it done on purpose to distort things for political reasons then I do not think he is entitled to his opinion as it then become unethical and possibly harmful to the public. This goes double for someone in public service, and triple for those in Law Enforcement.


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Just curious, what part of his opinion is wrong?

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post #10 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 11:54 AM
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Maybe his police officers need better training if 5 of them where hit to his 1.

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post #11 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by slow06 View Post
Well put.


Just curious, what part of his opinion is wrong?

1. "We need help to stop these weapons from hitting the street," said Police Chief Thomas Comey. " this weapon is manufactured for nothing other than to hunt man."

2.At a news conference Thursday afternoon, Comey said he considers that type of shotgun an "assault weapon" that should be used by law enforcement and no one else.

3."We should stop being afraid of the NRA and start being afraid [for] our own rights," Comey said.

All three of those fall into one of two categories: Wrong or totally illogical. An opinion is worthless (and not really an opinion) if it is illogical, untruthful, or deceitful. Even the first sentence in #1 is questionable (incomplete) even with the context of the article.
I am aware of the first amendment as well as the rest but when people give an opinion it should be logically supportable and not just BS. People should be responsible for what they say, particularly public servants that we are supposed to trust.

An example:

Guns hurt people
All guns should be banned

Then:
Guns hurt people
Guns save people
Guns have a place in society (people)

Thus:
Guns are not the problem; some other factor is the problem. (this statement would be worth a night of arquing and drinking beer on just a logical basis)

This can be fun and can deteriorate into some real academics but the bullshit meter should go off (as it did with Allan) almost immediately when you hear or read such statements.

Wayne in FW
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post #12 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 12:07 PM
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WTF do they mean by "in the South"

Who cares what region it was sold in, the seller should be the issue.
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post #13 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 12:34 PM
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WTF do they mean by "in the South"

Who cares what region it was sold in, the seller should be the issue.
The government of New York and New Jersey (mostly big city Mayors) say that many or most firearms (since you can't buy firearms easily in those states) used in crimes come from Virginia, Georgia, Florida and so on. This is true based on FBI traces and makes sense considering the availability of firearms in the first place in those states. This is where it begins to fall apart. If guns come from "The South" then the South must be the problem.

A few years ago there was a map produced by the FBI or Department of Justice (not the feared NRA taking away your rights) that showed gun crime as a nation wide occurrence. At a large scale it was obvious that gun crime mostly occurred in certain places, like East and West Coast big cities. Furthermore it showed that most came from lower socio-economic areas. It's not that gun crime doesn’t happen in other places it's just that statistically it disappears outside of poor minority enclaves in big cities.

So, the question to be asked is not where are the guns coming from, but why are they using the guns in a criminal way. No one wants to point the finger at minorities and no one what to point the finger at a society that created the problem in the first place. It just hard for a politician to say our problem is with minorities and that we as a society have really done everything wrong in dealing with minorities, poverty, drugs, and of course guns.

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post #14 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 01:03 PM
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Seems to me that too many of them think that only police officers should have guns... which I think would be fine IF only police officers were attacked by violent criminals.

Like wearing a t-shirt that says "Please don't attack me I am not armed, please visit and attack a police officer"

Maybe then it would be ok for them to take these malicious weapons away from law abiding citizens.

See if I were not carrying or able to own any "assault weapons" I would be better able to give the criminals attacking me, attacking family, stealing, etc a hug that they obviously need.


Is that the Democrat way of thinking or what?

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post #15 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 01:32 PM
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Another fucking idiot.
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post #16 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
When an "opinion" is just wrong ( any college student in a logic course could figure this one out) or it done on purpose to distort things for political reasons then I do not think he is entitled to his opinion as it then become unethical and possibly harmful to the public. This goes double for someone in public service, and triple for those in Law Enforcement.


Wayne in FW
What if someone thinks you are not entitled to your opinion?

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post #17 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 03:49 PM
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What if someone thinks you are not entitled to your opinion?

They can think what they want. No harm done in the darkness of the mind. There is a difference when someone poses a thought as an opinion when it is in fact wrong or an outright lie. There is some responsibility that comes with speaking publicly with an opinion. If you don't know for sure or do not have reasonable evidence to believe something then just STFU. This Police Chief in NJ is not stupid and I suspect he has greater aspirations in the political arena.

I think we carry the “everyone has a right to an opinion” a bit far. Its somewhat like the yelling fire in a theater, it is speech but not protected by the 1st amendment. I would not suggest that one should prosecuted for wrong or false opinions but they should be accountable in his case to the public they serve. When it comes to the Second amendment people can be harmed by enough people trusting someone like the chief or President Obama to be honest and logical. Gun laws can hurt the honest citizen.

Wayne in FW
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post #18 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
1. "We need help to stop these weapons from hitting the street," said Police Chief Thomas Comey. " this weapon is manufactured for nothing other than to hunt man."
With you on this one. One of the dumbest gun-related statements that I have ever heard. What is a barrel shroud again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
2.At a news conference Thursday afternoon, Comey said he considers that type of shotgun an "assault weapon" that should be used by law enforcement and no one else.
As far as I know there is no official definition of the term Assault Weapon. I disagree with the term in general because I think it is used to inspire fear, but I think a shotgun could fit the definition in his mind, a valid opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
3."We should stop being afraid of the NRA and start being afraid [for] our own rights," Comey said.
Owning guns is our right, tard. (Him, not you)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
All three of those fall into one of two categories: Wrong or totally illogical. An opinion is worthless (and not really an opinion) if it is illogical, untruthful, or deceitful. Even the first sentence in #1 is questionable (incomplete) even with the context of the article.
I am aware of the first amendment as well as the rest but when people give an opinion it should be logically supportable and not just BS. People should be responsible for what they say, particularly public servants that we are supposed to trust.
An opinion is still an opinion, no matter how illogical. The rest I agree with you on. His position does put him in a position of "authority", and I do believe that he has a responsibility to be factual and not misleading with his statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
An example:

Guns hurt people
All guns should be banned
I agree with you 100%.
Just Kidding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
They can think what they want. No harm done in the darkness of the mind. There is a difference when someone poses a thought as an opinion when it is in fact wrong or an outright lie. There is some responsibility that comes with speaking publicly with an opinion. If you don't know for sure or do not have reasonable evidence to believe something then just STFU. This Police Chief in NJ is not stupid and I suspect he has greater aspirations in the political arena.

I think we carry the “everyone has a right to an opinion” a bit far. Its somewhat like the yelling fire in a theater, it is speech but not protected by the 1st amendment. I would not suggest that one should prosecuted for wrong or false opinions but they should be accountable in his case to the public they serve. When it comes to the Second amendment people can be harmed by enough people trusting someone like the chief or President Obama to be honest and logical. Gun laws can hurt the honest citizen.

Wayne in FW
I wish America believed enough in the 2nd Amendment that his stupid opinion didn't matter.

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post #19 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 04:48 PM
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Jersey City Police Department

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Thomas J Comey

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Tell him what you think bout his statement
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post #20 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
They can think what they want. No harm done in the darkness of the mind. There is a difference when someone poses a thought as an opinion when it is in fact wrong or an outright lie. There is some responsibility that comes with speaking publicly with an opinion. If you don't know for sure or do not have reasonable evidence to believe something then just STFU. This Police Chief in NJ is not stupid and I suspect he has greater aspirations in the political arena.

I think we carry the “everyone has a right to an opinion” a bit far. Its somewhat like the yelling fire in a theater, it is speech but not protected by the 1st amendment. I would not suggest that one should prosecuted for wrong or false opinions but they should be accountable in his case to the public they serve. When it comes to the Second amendment people can be harmed by enough people trusting someone like the chief or President Obama to be honest and logical. Gun laws can hurt the honest citizen.

Wayne in FW
I agree with you that the guy is wrong, but I am a little lost when you claim he has no right to voice his opinion.

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post #21 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 05:52 PM
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You fine Gentlemen of DFWStangs will have to forgive me. I spent 30 years as a wildlife scientist and opinions were never given unless they can be backed up with data or facts.

There are two kinds of opinions: Normative and Positive.

Normative are opinions on what "ought to be" and are not based on facts and are usually not provable. Lots of feeling here but they are meaningless at the least and harmful at the worst.

Positive opinions are based on fact or scientific observation.
Generally thought to be provable. They shouldn't be good or bad, just facts. Legal opinions kind of fall in here but they are probably in between.

I know where you are coming from (Normative opinion) Paladin, but where in the constitution does it say you have a right to an opinion? 1st amendment? (abridging the freedom of speech) Maybe. It depends on what the effects are. That goes back to the yelling fire in a theater legal opinion.
As a polite society we say that people should have an opportunity to express an opinion but I think we have expectations that they are basing their opinions on something more than "feeling". Herein lies the problem and I have a real problem when an "authority" figure uses unsupportable opinions. On DFWstangs it really doesn’t matter one way or another. I know this is all rhetorical but as a Libertarian I feel there should be responsibility in action and words as much as freedom from large government and political correctness.
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post #22 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonnie&clyde View Post
well can u assult someone with it?? and it is a weapon??
Your right I can assault someone with it, but I can also assault someone with a knife to but that doesnt make it a assault knife. Guns cant assault anyone, only people can.



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post #23 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 06:18 PM
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As far as I know there is no official definition of the term Assault Weapon. I disagree with the term in general because I think it is used to inspire fear, but I think a shotgun could fit the definition in his mind, a valid opinion

I thought there was a definition; full auto, medium range caliber, used by military forces for assaulting the enemy and enemy positions. Something like that. In his mind maybe the shotgun is an assult weapon but consider this:

Louisville Slugger
Assault bat.
Defense bat
Recreational bat
Hunting bat
Pry bar bat


Which one is it?

An opinion is still an opinion, no matter how illogical.

Yes, kinda, sorta, maybe. I agree with you.

The rest I agree with you on. His position does put him in a position of "authority", and I do believe that he has a responsibility to be factual and not misleading with his statements

I agree with you 100 percent! Both sides in the 2nd amendment issue use misleading opinions on purpose to persuade you. I just can't look at the anti gun sites like I used to (too disgusting, too wrong) but I do read the pleas and bulletins put out by the NRA, 2nd Amendment Foundation, and others and they do the same thing but they seem to be more factual than not most of the time.



I wish America believed enough in the 2nd Amendment that his stupid opinion didn't matter.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that his opinion does matter as you alluded to earlier. While I don't think writing a letter would do any good, it is the mayor and council that should care that his police chief made their city look like a fool. But wait, perhaps the mayor wants to be governor, and he doesn't care about the truth. It's bad enough here in Texas it's just out of control up there (and not with just guns)

Wayne in FW
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post #24 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
You fine Gentlemen of DFWStangs will have to forgive me. I spent 30 years as a wildlife scientist and opinions were never given unless they can be backed up with data or facts.

There are two kinds of opinions: Normative and Positive.

Normative are opinions on what "ought to be" and are not based on facts and are usually not provable. Lots of feeling here but they are meaningless at the least and harmful at the worst.

Positive opinions are based on fact or scientific observation.
Generally thought to be provable. They shouldn't be good or bad, just facts. Legal opinions kind of fall in here but they are probably in between.

I know where you are coming from (Normative opinion) Paladin, but where in the constitution does it say you have a right to an opinion? 1st amendment? (abridging the freedom of speech) Maybe. It depends on what the effects are. That goes back to the yelling fire in a theater legal opinion.
As a polite society we say that people should have an opportunity to express an opinion but I think we have expectations that they are basing their opinions on something more than "feeling". Herein lies the problem and I have a real problem when an "authority" figure uses unsupportable opinions. On DFWstangs it really doesn’t matter one way or another. I know this is all rhetorical but as a Libertarian I feel there should be responsibility in action and words as much as freedom from large government and political correctness.
I think you are talking this way too far for a simple debate about the man voicing his opinion, just becase you and I disagree with it.

BTW, I think your opinion is something that needs to be kept to yourself. How about that?

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post #25 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
I think you are talking this way too far for a simple debate about the man voicing his opinion, just becase you and I disagree with it.

BTW, I think your opinion is something that needs to be kept to yourself. How about that?
You are correct that perhaps I took it further that needed for a simple DFWstangs discussion. Just tried to give a little clarity on opinions and how we view them. Looks Like I just stirred up a muddy pond.

If I stepped on your toes, I apologize as that was not my intension. What's your opinion on that banana thing anyway? You feel good by dodging telling me to STFU? I could respect that opinion.

Wayne in FW
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post #26 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
1. "We need help to stop these weapons from hitting the street," said Police Chief Thomas Comey. " this weapon is manufactured for nothing other than to hunt man."

2.At a news conference Thursday afternoon, Comey said he considers that type of shotgun an "assault weapon" that should be used by law enforcement and no one else.

3."We should stop being afraid of the NRA and start being afraid [for] our own rights," Comey said.

All three of those fall into one of two categories: Wrong or totally illogical. An opinion is worthless (and not really an opinion) if it is illogical, untruthful, or deceitful. Even the first sentence in #1 is questionable (incomplete) even with the context of the article.
I am aware of the first amendment as well as the rest but when people give an opinion it should be logically supportable and not just BS. People should be responsible for what they say, particularly public servants that we are supposed to trust.

An example:

Guns hurt people
All guns should be banned

Then:
Guns hurt people
Guns save people
Guns have a place in society (people)

Thus:
Guns are not the problem; some other factor is the problem. (this statement would be worth a night of arquing and drinking beer on just a logical basis)

This can be fun and can deteriorate into some real academics but the bullshit meter should go off (as it did with Allan) almost immediately when you hear or read such statements.

Wayne in FW
Good post.\\\

That guy is a stupid fat bastard. WTF is "Lawr Enforcement"? I'd bet he is a tree hugging liberal.
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post #27 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
What if someone thinks you are not entitled to your opinion?
What if someone that makes the rules thinks that you are not entitled to protect yourself?

This guy is another fn idiot. He sounds as dumb as a box of rocks, and then he doens't know facts. Sounds like another liberal Dem to me.
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post #28 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 08:51 PM
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And I am willing to bet, no matter what the law actually states, if he decides he doesn't like what you're doing, you better attorney up because he'll find something to charge you with.
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post #29 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
I agree with you that the guy is wrong, but I am a little lost when you claim he has no right to voice his opinion.

When the person voicing their opinion can use those thoughts to form official policy that is contrary to our god given rights they should not be in a position of power.
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post #30 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
The government of New York and New Jersey (mostly big city Mayors) say that many or most firearms (since you can't buy firearms easily in those states) used in crimes come from Virginia, Georgia, Florida and so on. This is true based on FBI traces and makes sense considering the availability of firearms in the first place in those states. This is where it begins to fall apart. If guns come from "The South" then the South must be the problem.

A few years ago there was a map produced by the FBI or Department of Justice (not the feared NRA taking away your rights) that showed gun crime as a nation wide occurrence. At a large scale it was obvious that gun crime mostly occurred in certain places, like East and West Coast big cities. Furthermore it showed that most came from lower socio-economic areas. It's not that gun crime doesn’t happen in other places it's just that statistically it disappears outside of poor minority enclaves in big cities.

So, the question to be asked is not where are the guns coming from, but why are they using the guns in a criminal way. No one wants to point the finger at minorities and no one what to point the finger at a society that created the problem in the first place. It just hard for a politician to say our problem is with minorities and that we as a society have really done everything wrong in dealing with minorities, poverty, drugs, and of course guns.

Wayne in FW

No one wants to point fingers at minorities because its not true. Minorities do not cause anymore crime than whites and this has been proven in many university type studies. Studies by some of the most respected sociology (phd) professors in the country. When I was studying criminology, we had to due term papers over this subject. We had to document all the violent crimes reported either in the newspaper or television. Visit local criminal courtrooms and sit through trials. Its just a perception of the media. They run or expose these stories to attract readers/viewers etc. So people believe that its all the blacks, but they mean(minorities) that are causing all this gun crime. The problem is that a lot of violent gun crime occurs in all poor communities. It doesn't matter whether they are in the mountains of West Virginia/Kentucky or the South-side of Chicago. Violent gun crimes are not predisposed to matters of race, its mostly due to drugs. Because our government can't (or won't) keep drugs from entering the U.S. As long as we have broken borders allowing drugs to enter the country, we are going to continue to see violent gun crimes etc. Its a cycle that involves the dealers who make a lot of money from addicts. The addicts, who rob, cheat, and steal to get money for their habit.

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post #31 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 08:12 AM
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No one wants to point fingers at minorities because its not true. Minorities do not cause anymore crime than whites and this has been proven in many university type studies. Studies by some of the most respected sociology (phd) professors in the country. When I was studying criminology, we had to due term papers over this subject. We had to document all the violent crimes reported either in the newspaper or television. Visit local criminal courtrooms and sit through trials. Its just a perception of the media. They run or expose these stories to attract readers/viewers etc. So people believe that its all the blacks, but they mean(minorities) that are causing all this gun crime. The problem is that a lot of violent gun crime occurs in all poor communities. It doesn't matter whether they are in the mountains of West Virginia/Kentucky or the South-side of Chicago. Violent gun crimes are not predisposed to matters of race, its mostly due to drugs. Because our government can't (or won't) keep drugs from entering the U.S. As long as we have broken borders allowing drugs to enter the country, we are going to continue to see violent gun crimes etc. Its a cycle that involves the dealers who make a lot of money from addicts. The addicts, who rob, cheat, and steal to get money for their habit.
I agree with you as a whole about crime, drugs, and economic status. The source I was quoting had nothing to do with the media just national compiled gun crime statistics (which also included suicides if I recall). It also was at a national scale and from that scale it looked like gun crime did not exist in Middle America (which we know it does). It could be that the Department of Justice made a mistake as it was about 5-6 years ago. I know I was startled when I saw it. After some searching, I couldn’t find it on the DOJ/FBI website and I suspect it has been removed. In looking at 2007 data (the latest complete data for all crime) whites commit a higher percentage of crime in any category except gambling and prostitution. Didn’t matter what community it was in, whites commit most of the crime. If one adjusts (which they do not) for percentage of population, crime rate looks way different by race. Another point is that the data makes no distinction between whites and Hispanics, they are lumped together ( I find that realy interesting). Get your calculator out and look at the data. It changes, so make your on conclusion.

I won't dispute your class work because I really don't know what is taught in Criminology these days and I may stand corrected The classes I had years 35 years ago (when I wanted to be a CSI type biologist) didn't deal with race or economic status.

I will say this, in the scientific world; the Sociologist is the lowest level of scientific scrutiny. Meaning they sometimes distort their studies to fit their agendas or their studies are just poorly done. It’s not that this doesn’t happen in all of the sciences, just more prevalent in the Social Sciences. Also be aware that not everything taught in a university is accurate or true, particularly in the social or behavioral sciences.

Having said all of that I still feel that we as a nation do not deal with drugs, race, poverty, and social well being very effectively. What ever we have done is not working very well. That should tell us something about where to go next.

Wayne in FW
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post #32 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 08:34 AM
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You are correct that perhaps I took it further that needed for a simple DFWstangs discussion. Just tried to give a little clarity on opinions and how we view them. Looks Like I just stirred up a muddy pond.

If I stepped on your toes, I apologize as that was not my intension. What's your opinion on that banana thing anyway? You feel good by dodging telling me to STFU? I could respect that opinion.

Wayne in FW
I have no hard feelings or animosity towards you dude, so no apology needed. You seem to throw out some pretty well thought out posts.

The dancing banana was a way to convey it was lighthearted and silly. You seem to take things way serious, and around here, that isn't necessary unless someone threatens you or calls you names.

Where did you get that I was telling you to STFU?

I also did not intend to offend, so sorry if I did.

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post #33 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 08:35 AM
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What if someone that makes the rules thinks that you are not entitled to protect yourself?

This guy is another fn idiot. He sounds as dumb as a box of rocks, and then he doens't know facts. Sounds like another liberal Dem to me.
That is a completely different topic. Valid and all, but different.

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post #34 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 08:36 AM
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When the person voicing their opinion can use those thoughts to form official policy that is contrary to our god given rights they should not be in a position of power.

LMAO! Like it never happens on either side.

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post #35 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 08:50 AM
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I have no hard feelings or animosity towards you dude, so no apology needed. You seem to throw out some pretty well thought out posts.

The dancing banana was a way to convey it was lighthearted and silly. You seem to take things way serious, and around here, that isn't necessary unless someone threatens you or calls you names.

Where did you get that I was telling you to STFU?

I also did not intend to offend, so sorry if I did.
Paladin,


You did not offend me, I was just yanking your chain a bit and I was suggesting that you should have told me to STFU (light heartedly). I get wordy at times and those debate classes I took just get the best of me sometimes. I like to win a debate and I always wonder what I did wrong when I lose a debate. I have to admit that my first post or two on the board, in the garage section, was victim to DFWstang ribbing and chain yanking. Someone explained it to me in a private message. I expect it now and take no offence. I spend more time on DFWstangs that just about any other site as it covers most all of my interests (except women).

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post #36 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 08:57 AM
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Paladin,


You did not offend me, I was just yanking your chain a bit and I was suggesting that you should have told me to STFU (light heartedly). I get wordy at times and those debate classes I took just get the best of me sometimes. I like to win a debate and I always wonder what I did wrong when I lose a debate. I have to admit that my first post or two on the board, in the garage section, was victim to DFWstang ribbing and chain yanking. Someone explained it to me in a private message. I expect it now and take no offence. I spend more time on DFWstangs that just about any other site as it covers most all of my interests (except women).

Wayne in FW
Okay, it was sort of difficult downshifting with you after those first posts I saw.

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post #37 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 09:09 AM
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I think he is nuts to make a comment that it's "manufactured to hunt man." Mossberg ought to press charges for slander. He is saying that Mossberg as a company manufactures the Mossberg 500 Tactical pump-action shotgun to hunt man. So is he saying they use the same weapon to do the same thing by his own words? Oh, I bet not, they use it for entry purposes.

So which is it, manufactured for entry or to hunt man?
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post #38 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 09:25 AM
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I think he is nuts to make a comment that it's "manufactured to hunt man." Mossberg ought to press charges for slander. He is saying that Mossberg as a company manufactures the Mossberg 500 Tactical pump-action shotgun to hunt man. So is he saying they use the same weapon to do the same thing by his own words? Oh, I bet not, they use it for entry purposes.

So which is it, manufactured for entry or to hunt man?
Haha, good point. They could, just to make a point, but I don't think they would get anything out of it.

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Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
As far as I know there is no official definition of the term Assault Weapon. I disagree with the term in general because I think it is used to inspire fear, but I think a shotgun could fit the definition in his mind, a valid opinion

I thought there was a definition; full auto, medium range caliber, used by military forces for assaulting the enemy and enemy positions. Something like that. In his mind maybe the shotgun is an assult weapon but consider this:
I looked for a definition and couldn't really find one, at least nothing consistent. The AWB crazies would stop you at your first point, because they are semi-autos on that list. The definition I found on wikipedia (I know, it isn't the bible)does mention shotguns, which I had never even though of before. In my opinion it isn't even a valid term, tactical would fit better for everything in the "Assault" category.

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Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
Louisville Slugger
Assault bat.
Defense bat
Recreational bat
Hunting bat
Pry bar bat[/B]

Which one is it?
Because I saw a guy get beat up with one time, I think the Louisville Slugger is manufactured to beat people up with. Assault Bat it is!

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post #39 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 09:43 AM
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SLOWO6: looked for a definition and couldn't really find one, at least nothing consistent. The AWB crazies would stop you at your first point, because they are semi-autos on that list. The definition I found on wikipedia (I know, it isn't the bible)does mention shotguns, which I had never even though of before. In my opinion it isn't even a valid term, tactical would fit better for everything in the "Assault" category.

I looked at the wiki site and they make a distinction between assault weapon and assault rifle.

Assault rifle is a rifle designed for combat, with selective fire (capable of shooting in both fully automatic and semi automatic modes). Assault rifles are the standard infantry weapons in most modern armies, having largely superseded or supplemented larger and more powerful battle rifles such as the M14, FN FAL and the Heckler & Koch G3. Examples of assault rifles include the AK-47, the M4 and the Steyr AUG.

Assault weapon is a term that refers to a broad category of firearms, including military-style semiautomatic rifles derived from assault rifles, and also including some pistols and shotguns. Assault weapons are often similar in appearance to military firearms, but are capable of firing only one round each time the trigger is pulled.

There are a variety of different statutory definitions of assault weapon in local, state, and federal laws in the United States that define them by a set of characteristics they possess. Using lists of physical features or specific firearms in defining assault weapons in the US was first codified by the language defining semi-automatic rifles with certain characteristics in the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban.[1] Very generally speaking, a firearm is defined by these laws as an assault weapon if it has both a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, sometimes in conjunction with other features such as a folding stock or a flash suppressor.

The chief was still wrong as the mossberg is not defined as an assault weapon (at least not anymore).
I read another article about the shooting and it seems that the swat team messed up big time. 5 swat shot, two die, one bad guy with a shotgun. They had shields, vests and all of the gear. The bad guy was shot 19 times and his unarmed wife was shot in the head. I suspect their team will be reviewing how to do this different next time. One more bad guy off the streets but it’s a shame that it took the lives of two officers.

Wayne in FW

Last edited by Falcongunner; 07-22-2009 at 09:58 AM.
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post #40 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 10:06 AM
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The Chief was partly right about the mossberg.

I took a look at New Jersey law.

New Jersey Revised Statutes §§ 2C:39-1w and 2C:39-5f prohibit the knowing possession of "assault firearms" (unless the purchaser or possessor is licensed to possess the assault firearm or the weapon is registered or rendered inoperable), defined to include:

More than 50 specified firearms or their copies (§ 2C:39-1w(1), (2));

A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a pistol grip, or a folding stock (§ 2C:39-1w(3));

A semi-automatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 15 rounds (§ 2C:39-1w(4)); and

A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person (§ 2C:39-1w(5)).

Under that definition I suspect that most of us have an assault shotgun. Luck is that we are not in New Jersey.

Wayne in FW
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post #41 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 10:31 AM
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New Jersey government thinks people are too stupid to pump their own gas...so I'm not surprised with this guy's mental capacity.

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post #42 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
The Chief was partly right about the mossberg.

I took a look at New Jersey law.

New Jersey Revised Statutes §§ 2C:39-1w and 2C:39-5f prohibit the knowing possession of "assault firearms" (unless the purchaser or possessor is licensed to possess the assault firearm or the weapon is registered or rendered inoperable), defined to include:

More than 50 specified firearms or their copies (§ 2C:39-1w(1), (2));

A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a pistol grip, or a folding stock (§ 2C:39-1w(3));

A semi-automatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 15 rounds (§ 2C:39-1w(4)); and

A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person (§ 2C:39-1w(5)).

Under that definition I suspect that most of us have an assault shotgun. Luck is that we are not in New Jersey.

Wayne in FW
Where's a pump-action fall under that?

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post #43 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 11:16 AM
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Where's a pump-action fall under that?
Good catch. I missed the "pump" in Allan's original post.

Wayne in FW
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post #44 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobra Commander View Post
No one wants to point fingers at minorities because its not true. Minorities do not cause anymore crime than whites and this has been proven in many university type studies. Studies by some of the most respected sociology (phd) professors in the country. When I was studying criminology, we had to due term papers over this subject. We had to document all the violent crimes reported either in the newspaper or television. Visit local criminal courtrooms and sit through trials. Its just a perception of the media. They run or expose these stories to attract readers/viewers etc. So people believe that its all the blacks, but they mean(minorities) that are causing all this gun crime. The problem is that a lot of violent gun crime occurs in all poor communities. It doesn't matter whether they are in the mountains of West Virginia/Kentucky or the South-side of Chicago. Violent gun crimes are not predisposed to matters of race, its mostly due to drugs. Because our government can't (or won't) keep drugs from entering the U.S. As long as we have broken borders allowing drugs to enter the country, we are going to continue to see violent gun crimes etc. Its a cycle that involves the dealers who make a lot of money from addicts. The addicts, who rob, cheat, and steal to get money for their habit.
Well, that's not in line with what our crime stats show. I'd like to see the hard data (unmanipulated) to make my own decision. I don't like being force fed someone's interpretation of the facts.
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post #45 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
I agree with you as a whole about crime, drugs, and economic status. The source I was quoting had nothing to do with the media just national compiled gun crime statistics (which also included suicides if I recall). It also was at a national scale and from that scale it looked like gun crime did not exist in Middle America (which we know it does). It could be that the Department of Justice made a mistake as it was about 5-6 years ago. I know I was startled when I saw it. After some searching, I couldn’t find it on the DOJ/FBI website and I suspect it has been removed. In looking at 2007 data (the latest complete data for all crime) whites commit a higher percentage of crime in any category except gambling and prostitution. Didn’t matter what community it was in, whites commit most of the crime. If one adjusts (which they do not) for percentage of population, crime rate looks way different by race. Another point is that the data makes no distinction between whites and Hispanics, they are lumped together ( I find that realy interesting). Get your calculator out and look at the data. It changes, so make your on conclusion.

I won't dispute your class work because I really don't know what is taught in Criminology these days and I may stand corrected The classes I had years 35 years ago (when I wanted to be a CSI type biologist) didn't deal with race or economic status.

I will say this, in the scientific world; the Sociologist is the lowest level of scientific scrutiny. Meaning they sometimes distort their studies to fit their agendas or their studies are just poorly done. It’s not that this doesn’t happen in all of the sciences, just more prevalent in the Social Sciences. Also be aware that not everything taught in a university is accurate or true, particularly in the social or behavioral sciences.

Having said all of that I still feel that we as a nation do not deal with drugs, race, poverty, and social well being very effectively. What ever we have done is not working very well. That should tell us something about where to go next.

Wayne in FW
Another good post. I was not aware that we were talking raw numbers, but percentage wise, minorities commit more crimes. That's why there is a disproportionate amount of minorities in our jails. Thats why minority groups cry foul when they look at the percentages of minorities in jail and think it's the whites making it so.

I hate being called a racist, but when you have a black that is accused of a crime, and the victim and witnesses are black, how does that make me a racist for doing my job?
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post #46 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bulldawgs75 View Post
I think he is nuts to make a comment that it's "manufactured to hunt man." Mossberg ought to press charges for slander. He is saying that Mossberg as a company manufactures the Mossberg 500 Tactical pump-action shotgun to hunt man. So is he saying they use the same weapon to do the same thing by his own words? Oh, I bet not, they use it for entry purposes.

So which is it, manufactured for entry or to hunt man?
Remember, this guy's a fat ass idiot. He can't control stuffing food into his mouth, how is he supposed to control anything else? Obviously he has no self discipline, so he's not credible.
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post #47 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 11:55 AM
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Where's a pump-action fall under that?
It should not be included since pump action does not automatically feed the next round. It has to be done manually, so there is no "semi-automatic" action.
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post #48 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 03trubluGT View Post
Another good post. I was not aware that we were talking raw numbers, but percentage wise, minorities commit more crimes. That's why there is a disproportionate amount of minorities in our jails. Thats why minority groups cry foul when they look at the percentages of minorities in jail and think it's the whites making it so.

I hate being called a racist, but when you have a black that is accused of a crime, and the victim and witnesses are black, how does that make me a racist for doing my job?
Why are you so sensitive about it then...

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post #49 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcongunner View Post
I agree with you as a whole about crime, drugs, and economic status. The source I was quoting had nothing to do with the media just national compiled gun crime statistics (which also included suicides if I recall). It also was at a national scale and from that scale it looked like gun crime did not exist in Middle America (which we know it does). It could be that the Department of Justice made a mistake as it was about 5-6 years ago. I know I was startled when I saw it. After some searching, I couldn’t find it on the DOJ/FBI website and I suspect it has been removed. In looking at 2007 data (the latest complete data for all crime) whites commit a higher percentage of crime in any category except gambling and prostitution. Didn’t matter what community it was in, whites commit most of the crime. If one adjusts (which they do not) for percentage of population, crime rate looks way different by race. Another point is that the data makes no distinction between whites and Hispanics, they are lumped together ( I find that realy interesting). Get your calculator out and look at the data. It changes, so make your on conclusion.

I won't dispute your class work because I really don't know what is taught in Criminology these days and I may stand corrected The classes I had years 35 years ago (when I wanted to be a CSI type biologist) didn't deal with race or economic status.

I will say this, in the scientific world; the Sociologist is the lowest level of scientific scrutiny. Meaning they sometimes distort their studies to fit their agendas or their studies are just poorly done. It’s not that this doesn’t happen in all of the sciences, just more prevalent in the Social Sciences. Also be aware that not everything taught in a university is accurate or true, particularly in the social or behavioral sciences.

Having said all of that I still feel that we as a nation do not deal with drugs, race, poverty, and social well being very effectively. What ever we have done is not working very well. That should tell us something about where to go next.

Wayne in FW
There are many variables that I don't even want to get into the study that my group completed back in college. So dispute all you want but there are just as much gun crime being done by low class whites, blacks, and hispanics... But go ahead and blame it on the minorities if it makes you feel better about yourselves.

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post #50 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 12:09 PM
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There are many variables that I don't even want to get into the study that my group completed back in college. So dispute all you want but there are just as much gun crime being done by low class whites, blacks, and hispanics... But go ahead and blame it on the minorities if it makes you feel better about yourselves.
I have had one car vandalized and two cars broken into...

The vandal was a white guy the two thefts were minorities... so far that makes it a 2-1 ratio for my personal experiences.

I have been lucky to not have been personally involved in any gun crimes so I can not comment on that. I think people just to to make generalizations about a higher percentage of criminals being minorities. Well that and prison populations.

The Cobra has run a best of 13.58 ET finally 104 mph on stock engine, no blowers, no turbos, no NOS! Note I said HAS run, now it sits on bald tires in the driveway, but the speedometer and A/C work again!!! 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege Zoom, Zoom, Zoom... It's turboed I get three Zooms biatch!!!!

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