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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 09:08 AM
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 09:09 AM
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 09:46 AM
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haha nice.
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 09:48 AM
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 10:10 AM
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there better be rifling on those bullets!
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 10:39 AM
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LMAO

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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 10:43 AM
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I liked the ad in general until the nut job started his rant on Waco.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
I liked the ad in general until the nut job started his rant on Waco.
Yeah I didn't really get his reference to branch dividians being shot. They were not shot, they were burned.

What was your beef with his statements?
I happen to know a bit about Waco . I had some knowledge it was even going to happen a month before it did. I have also seen the truck the ATF agents drove in there.
SWISS CHEESE.

Those mother fuckers put up a serious fight.
Was sad how it ended though. Poorly executed is an understatement.
Then again who would have estimated such resistance from brainwashed morons?
A sad day for the ATF. They lost a good number right off the bat.

The truck did not provide cover, you could see where the bullets passed through various parts of the cab.

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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 07:14 PM
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
Yeah I didn't really get his reference to branch dividians being shot. They were not shot, they were burned.

What was your beef with his statements?
I happen to know a bit about Waco . I had some knowledge it was even going to happen a month before it did. I have also seen the truck the ATF agents drove in there.
SWISS CHEESE.

Those mother fuckers put up a serious fight.
Was sad how it ended though. Poorly executed is an understatement.
Then again who would have estimated such resistance from brainwashed morons?
A sad day for the ATF. They lost a good number right off the bat.

The truck did not provide cover, you could see where the bullets passed through various parts of the cab.
Here is a quote from the ad "the thousands of FBI sniper bullets used to kill scores of children at the Waco Compound, resulting in the tragic Oklahoma City bombing." I think this statement tells me the guy who made this ad is nuts.
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 09:19 PM
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I think that whole ad tells me the guy is just kidding.


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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
Yeah I didn't really get his reference to branch dividians being shot. They were not shot, they were burned.

What was your beef with his statements?
I happen to know a bit about Waco . I had some knowledge it was even going to happen a month before it did. I have also seen the truck the ATF agents drove in there.
SWISS CHEESE.

Those mother fuckers put up a serious fight.
Was sad how it ended though. Poorly executed is an understatement.
Then again who would have estimated such resistance from brainwashed morons?
A sad day for the ATF. They lost a good number right off the bat.

The truck did not provide cover, you could see where the bullets passed through various parts of the cab.
it doesnt help that they were using memeber of the national gaurd form the 536 wearing atf jackets to help out either

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
Yeah I didn't really get his reference to branch dividians being shot. They were not shot, they were burned.

What was your beef with his statements?
I happen to know a bit about Waco . I had some knowledge it was even going to happen a month before it did. I have also seen the truck the ATF agents drove in there.
SWISS CHEESE.

Those mother fuckers put up a serious fight.
Was sad how it ended though. Poorly executed is an understatement.
Then again who would have estimated such resistance from brainwashed morons?
A sad day for the ATF. They lost a good number right off the bat.

The truck did not provide cover, you could see where the bullets passed through various parts of the cab.
It is also clear on the FLIR footage taken during the campaign that the ATF fired at them unprovoked. What was the ATF doing executing a warrant for child abuse anyways?! I think that they (ATF) were trying to gain recognition and funding at the Texans expense. Especially after the bad press at Ruby Ridge. Why else did they(government) make sure the news cameras were there and not medical personnel to care after ATF wounded during the assault?

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 02:28 PM
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I guess I look at the Waco thing differently...sucks the good guys died but good that every fucking one of the bad guys cooked and didn't waste money on trials!



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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 03:25 PM
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I guess I look at the Waco thing differently...sucks the good guys died but good that every fucking one of the bad guys cooked and didn't waste money on trials!
This about how I feel. The Branch Davidians were ignorant dipshits but shame on the fucking ATF for putting their people's lives at risk for a publicity stunt. As far as I am concerned the agency should have been done away with after that debacle.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P
This about how I feel. The Branch Davidians were ignorant dipshits but shame on the fucking ATF for putting their people's lives at risk for a publicity stunt. As far as I am concerned the agency should have been done away with after that debacle.
The saddest part was the children. The Davidians should have been released the children. There were pics of the kids all shriveled up due to the reaction to the chemicals in the gas.

That was one of the biggest events that opened my eyes to the inaccuracies of the media. That and the difference between what my brother told me about the Desert Storm war and what the news reported.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aggie97
I guess I look at the Waco thing differently...sucks the good guys died but good that every fucking one of the bad guys cooked and didn't waste money on trials!
You mean all the ATF guys died?

Lets burn everything down because we think you might have a sbr.
Then plant our flag in the burned out building.

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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AL P
This about how I feel. The Branch Davidians were ignorant dipshits but shame on the fucking ATF for putting their people's lives at risk for a publicity stunt. As far as I am concerned the agency should have been done away with after that debacle.
What a debacle that was. Thank you, Janet Reno.

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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ALLAN
You mean all the ATF guys died?

Lets burn everything down because we think you might have a sbr.
Then plant our flag in the burned out building.
I totally believe in the right to bear what ever arms I want, but the branch dividians were a serious group of wack jobs that just happened to be gun enthusiasts...

I don't claim to know much about the gun concerns at Waco, but if they had weapons illegally...they got what they deserved. Either way it was a complete debacle and a sad lesson on how to deal with those types of groups in that situation.

The sad part is that once again the rights of the majority are compromised by a very small minority of assholes...



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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLAN
You mean all the ATF guys died?

Lets burn everything down because we think you might have a sbr.
Then plant our flag in the burned out building.
That's not true. The warrant mostly about child abuse. As far as I know, ATF does not have jurisdiction over child abuse.
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by aggie97
I totally believe in the right to bear what ever arms I want, but the branch dividians were a serious group of wack jobs that just happened to be gun enthusiasts...

I don't claim to know much about the gun concerns at Waco, but if they had weapons illegally...they got what they deserved. Either way it was a complete debacle and a sad lesson on how to deal with those types of groups in that situation.

The sad part is that once again the rights of the majority are compromised by a very small minority of assholes...
There was never any proof of any illegal weapons. After the raid, no one ever provided proof that any of the guns there were illegal.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 66Deuce
There was never any proof of any illegal weapons. After the raid, no one ever provided proof that any of the guns there were illegal.
I would guess that the ATF was there because the BD's may have had registered SBR's and Autos and expected a problem if they were trying to take the children. Like I said, it was all very poorly executed.

If CPS was going to go in and remove the children and the answer was "over our charred dead bodies"....the outcome probably wouldn't have been much different.



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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 66Deuce
There was never any proof of any illegal weapons. After the raid, no one ever provided proof that any of the guns there were illegal.
they probably said they were illegal to get the liberals on their side to make it look less poorly done than it was. It's always easiest to pass the blame when you fuck up bad!



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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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They never found proof of illegal weapons and the ATF was used because they were looking for sbs, sbr, and machineguns not because of any child abuse. That stuff was added later.

This was just a bunch of JBT's trying to put on a show for the TV cameras.
They fucked up and alot of people died.

The davidians may well have been on the kool-aid, but they were still Americans.

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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 10:05 AM
 
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someone buy this guy a beer!
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLAN
They never found proof of illegal weapons and the ATF was used because they were looking for sbs, sbr, and machineguns not because of any child abuse. That stuff was added later.

This was just a bunch of JBT's trying to put on a show for the TV cameras.
They fucked up and alot of people died.

The davidians may well have been on the kool-aid, but they were still Americans.
X2
the reasons they went in were fucking retarded. Not that I give a shit about the Davidians, definitely on the good koolaid, but they didn't deserve to be raided by a bunch of jack booted thugs with no proof of any wrong doing.

I would like to see the flir footage to see if the ATF shot first. I find that hard to believe, but when you send that many guys in a truck and trailor- a lot of things can go wrong. Someone could slam a door and then the government thugs think it's a firearm report and assume some return fire. Somewhat understandable from a tense operation.

In a lot of ways the ATF got what they deserved also. They underestimated the number of armed men/women in there and then took all the wrong actions to make people feel the need to defend themselves. Which they did , and many ATF agents died in the begining of the firefight.
The ATF agent I knew said he saw one of his best friends get shot in the head at the front of his truck.
Fact is , they were way overzealous in enforcement, and ran up against people that wouldn't fold like 99% of the populace they walk all over every day enforcing some of the most rediculous laws.
The agent I knew was a very gung ho kind of guy, and probably the biggest racist I have ever met in my life. It rubbed off so much on his son that he had problems for life. starting fights with many black people just cause he couldn't keep his mouth shut. Some how it didn't surprise me this guy was in the ATF, years later.

There was a million other ways to have this go down. THE ATF CHOSE THIS COURSE OF ACTION and I think they rightly suffered. Maybe not enough.
Otherwise that other wack job wouldn't have bombed the OKC building. Man that was fucked up too.
Law enforcement needs to act on facts they have, not SUSPICION of wrongdoing. Which is all they had to risk everyone's life involved.
You have to wonder what the Dividians could have testified about , if they had lived or their children?
Would you realease your child , having just been attacked by gun bearing government agents ? NOPE. wouldn't do it. They'll just crucify you in jail anyway.

The dividians knew they were coming , and they were sick of their shit. They had been harrassed for months before this and knew government agents were watching their every move. BUT the agents refused to talk with them, refused to discuss anything with them. Basically they wanted a pitched battle that was big and they brought it. If the ATF did not think they were god damned superheroes they would have realized any one can shoot a gun and defend themselves. No amount of gear or jack booted thugs can beat preparation. They were prepared to defend their way of life.
I really think if all the ATF agents had died in the initial firefight, we would be having a much different government now. We would be talking about how it was such a botched operation against legit gun owners that wouldn't be walked all over. They should have just sent one man, to serve a warrant, and inspect the premises completely. Peacefully. If that went wrong , bomb the whole place for all i care. If they won't come out PEACEFULLY after the warrant. Then who cares?
The point is you shouldn't threaten people at gunpoint, THEN show the warrant .
It's the other way around.
All these no knock warrants are equally stupid in the 'war on some drugs'
Do they do no knock warrants for stock embezellers ? no , even though people lose millions, and put out hits on each other (enron 'suicide'). They are equally dangerous, but they just have more money to defend themselves from frivilous prosecution by government entities. We're talking about people losing their life savings, not smoking weed. Yet the results are vastly different by law enforcement. hell white collar crime is hardly enforced

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Last edited by futant; 05-22-2008 at 11:10 AM.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 10:14 AM
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by futant
X2
the reasons they went in were fucking retarded. Not that I give a shit about the Davidians, definitely on the good koolaid, but they didn't deserve to be raided by a bunch of jack booted thugs with no proof of any wrong doing.

I would like to see the flir footage to see if the ATF shot first. I find that hard to believe, but when you send that many guys in a truck and trailor- a lot of things can go wrong. Someone could slam a door and then the government thugs think it's a firearm report and assume some return fire. Somewhat understandable from a tense operation.

In a lot of ways the ATF got what they deserved also. They underestimated the number of armed men/women in there and then took all the wrong actions to make people feel the need to defend themselves. Which they did , and many ATF agents died in the begining of the firefight.
The ATF agent I knew said he saw one of his best friends get shot in the head at the front of his truck.
Fact is , they were way overzealous in enforcement, and ran up against people that wouldn't fold like 99% of the populace they walk all over every day enforcing some of the most rediculous laws.
The agent I knew was a very gung ho kind of guy, and probably the biggest racist I have ever met in my life. It rubbed off so much on his son that he had problems for life. starting fights with many black people just cause he couldn't keep his mouth shut. Some how it didn't surprise me this guy was in the ATF, years later.

There was a million other ways to have this go down. THE ATF CHOSE THIS COURSE OF ACTION and I think they rightly suffered. Maybe not enough.
Otherwise that other wack job wouldn't have bombed the OKC building. Man that was fucked up too.
Law enforcement needs to act on facts they have, not SUSPICION of wrongdoing. Which is all they had to risk everyone's life involved.
You have to wonder what the Dividians could have testified about , if they had lived or their children?
Would you realease your child , having just been attacked by gun bearing government agents ? NOPE. wouldn't do it. They'll just crucify you in jail anyway.

The dividians knew they were coming , and they were sick of their shit. They had been harrassed for months before this and knew government agents were watching their every move. BUT the agents refused to talk with them, refused to discuss anything with them. Basically they wanted a pitched battle that was big and they brought it. If the ATF did not think they were god damned superheroes they would have realized any one can shoot a gun and defend themselves. No amount of gear or jack booted thugs can beat preparation. They were prepared to defend their way of life.
I really think if all the ATF agents had died in the initial firefight, we would be having a much different government now. We would be talking about how it was such a botched operation against legit gun owners that wouldn't be walked all over. They should have just sent one man, to serve a warrant, and inspect the premises completely. Peacefully. If that went wrong , bomb the whole place for all i care. If they won't come out PEACEFULLY after the warrant. Then who cares?
The point is you shouldn't threaten people at gunpoint, THEN show the warrant .
It's the other way around.
All these no knock warrants are equally stupid in the 'war on some drugs'
Do they do no knock warrants for stock embezellers ? no , even though people lose millions, and put out hits on each other (enron 'suicide'). They are equally dangerous, but they just have more money to defend themselves from frivilous prosecution by government entities. We're talking about people losing their life savings, not smoking weed. Yet the results are vastly different by law enforcement. hell white collar crime is hardly enforced
Defend them all you want, that guy needed to die,period, some people do. McViegh was a coward and a terrorist, praise him if you want, I'd rather pee on his grave.

"Interviews with surviving Davidians state that David Koresh was intimately versed in the Bible and "knew it like he wrote it".Koresh taught that the U.S. government was the enemy of the Davidians, and that they would have to defend themselves.

In a video made by the Davidians and released during the siege, Koresh stated he'd been told by God to procreate with the women in the groups to establish a "House of David," his "Special People." This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives. On the tape, Koresh is also shown with several minors who claimed to have had babies fathered by Koresh. In total, Koresh had 14 children who stayed with him in the compound."
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-22-2008, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
Defend them all you want, that guy needed to die,period, some people do. McViegh was a coward and a terrorist, praise him if you want, I'd rather pee on his grave.

"Interviews with surviving Davidians state that David Koresh was intimately versed in the Bible and "knew it like he wrote it".Koresh taught that the U.S. government was the enemy of the Davidians, and that they would have to defend themselves.

In a video made by the Davidians and released during the siege, Koresh stated he'd been told by God to procreate with the women in the groups to establish a "House of David," his "Special People." This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives. On the tape, Koresh is also shown with several minors who claimed to have had babies fathered by Koresh. In total, Koresh had 14 children who stayed with him in the compound."
You should try reading better - maybe the school for kids who can't read so well?
I'm not defending him idiot.
I'm attacking the governments heavy handed tactics against him.
I would have like to see him charged and in jail. NOT 90 men, women, and children dead.
Hate on him all you want, but that doesn't excuse the governments actions.
As brainwashed as they were, are you saying you liked seeing them burn to death?
Who's drinking the koolaid?

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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-26-2008, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLAN
They never found proof of illegal weapons and the ATF was used because they were looking for sbs, sbr, and machineguns not because of any child abuse. That stuff was added later.

This was just a bunch of JBT's trying to put on a show for the TV cameras.
They fucked up and alot of people died.

The davidians may well have been on the kool-aid, but they were still Americans.
The warrant only had a small mention of alleged illegal weapons. It was largely based on alleged child abuse and none of it was proven before or after the raid. It just goes to show that any gun owner could find themselves in a similar situation with an overzealous government.

I agree with the rest of what you stated.
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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-27-2008, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-27-2008, 08:46 AM
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I think he wrote that as quoting Hillary, or at least speaking with the views she does.

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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-27-2008, 09:08 AM
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Link?
http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/waco.html

I did not know koresh and 7 other men led a full on gunfight when they acquired the ranch years before that .

Mother fucking pychos! It doesn't even make sense with that much armament to bring the fight to them just like they wanted!

Here is also a very good LEGAL read of how little /IF ANY probably cause they had to go in :

http://www.davekopel.com/waco/lawrev/warrant.htm

In short, the only evidence that the BATF offered the magistrate that the Davidians were converting semi-automatic guns into machine guns appears to be:

(a) the Davidians had bought the E2 spare parts kit, which BATF falsely claimed was an "EZ" conversion kit;
*20 (b) the Davidians had made unspecified purchases from a company that sells conversion kits, and which also sells thousands of items which are not conversion kits; and
(c) the Davidians owned home workshop equipment such as lathes which can, in addition to many legal uses, be used for illegal fabrication of machine gun components.

79 K5 blazer, 6" lift 38x15" tires d44/12b lockers and chromoly axles ,6.2L GM diesel - Waste Vegetable Oil conversion - cross over steering,14"SAW nitrogen shocks, beefed shackles, shackle flip, winch/ bumpers, diff covers.

94 CBR 600 naked, handbraked, -1 +3 sprockets, one wheel operation mod

"I'm sorry, nothing quite says, "F- You, I'm from Texas" like an all-business, stripped-down K5."

Last edited by futant; 05-27-2008 at 09:45 AM.
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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-27-2008, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/waco.html

I did not know koresh and 7 other men led a full on gunfight when they acquired the ranch years before that .

Mother fucking pychos! It doesn't even make sense with that much armament to bring the fight to them just like they wanted!

Here is also a very good LEGAL read of how little /IF ANY probably cause they had to go in :

http://www.davekopel.com/waco/lawrev/warrant.htm

In short, the only evidence that the BATF offered the magistrate that the Davidians were converting semi-automatic guns into machine guns appears to be:

(a) the Davidians had bought the E2 spare parts kit, which BATF falsely claimed was an "EZ" conversion kit;
*20 (b) the Davidians had made unspecified purchases from a company that sells conversion kits, and which also sells thousands of items which are not conversion kits; and
(c) the Davidians owned home workshop equipment such as lathes which can, in addition to many legal uses, be used for illegal fabrication of machine gun components.
That's only part of the one I saw. It had lots of ramblings about child abuse with minors.
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