Originally Posted by ALLAN
They never found proof of illegal weapons and the ATF was used because they were looking for sbs, sbr, and machineguns not because of any child abuse. That stuff was added later.
This was just a bunch of JBT's trying to put on a show for the TV cameras.
They fucked up and alot of people died.
The davidians may well have been on the kool-aid, but they were still Americans.
the reasons they went in were fucking retarded. Not that I give a shit about the Davidians, definitely on the good koolaid, but they didn't deserve to be raided by a bunch of jack booted thugs with no proof of any wrong doing.
I would like to see the flir footage to see if the ATF shot first. I find that hard to believe, but when you send that many guys in a truck and trailor- a lot of things can go wrong. Someone could slam a door and then the government thugs think it's a firearm report and assume some return fire. Somewhat understandable from a tense operation.
In a lot of ways the ATF got what they deserved also. They underestimated the number of armed men/women in there and then took all the wrong actions to make people feel the need to defend themselves. Which they did , and many ATF agents died in the begining of the firefight.
The ATF agent I knew said he saw one of his best friends get shot in the head at the front of his truck.
Fact is , they were way overzealous in enforcement, and ran up against people that wouldn't fold like 99% of the populace they walk all over every day enforcing some of the most rediculous laws.
The agent I knew was a very gung ho kind of guy, and probably the biggest racist I have ever met in my life. It rubbed off so much on his son that he had problems for life. starting fights with many black people just cause he couldn't keep his mouth shut. Some how it didn't surprise me this guy was in the ATF, years later.
There was a million other ways to have this go down. THE ATF CHOSE THIS COURSE OF ACTION and I think they rightly suffered. Maybe not enough.
Otherwise that other wack job wouldn't have bombed the OKC building. Man that was fucked up too.
Law enforcement needs to act on facts they have, not SUSPICION of wrongdoing. Which is all they had to risk everyone's life involved.
You have to wonder what the Dividians could have testified about , if they had lived or their children?
Would you realease your child , having just been attacked by gun bearing government agents ? NOPE. wouldn't do it. They'll just crucify you in jail anyway.
The dividians knew they were coming , and they were sick of their shit. They had been harrassed for months before this and knew government agents were watching their every move. BUT the agents refused to talk with them, refused to discuss anything with them. Basically they wanted a pitched battle that was big and they brought it. If the ATF did not think they were god damned superheroes they would have realized any one can shoot a gun and defend themselves. No amount of gear or jack booted thugs can beat preparation. They were prepared to defend their way of life.
I really think if all the ATF agents had died in the initial firefight, we would be having a much different government now. We would be talking about how it was such a botched operation against legit gun owners that wouldn't be walked all over. They should have just sent one man, to serve a warrant, and inspect the premises completely. Peacefully. If that went wrong , bomb the whole place for all i care. If they won't come out PEACEFULLY after the warrant. Then who cares?
The point is you shouldn't threaten people at gunpoint, THEN show the warrant .
It's the other way around.
All these no knock warrants are equally stupid in the 'war on some drugs'
Do they do no knock warrants for stock embezellers ? no , even though people lose millions, and put out hits on each other (enron 'suicide'). They are equally dangerous, but they just have more money to defend themselves from frivilous prosecution by government entities. We're talking about people losing their life savings, not smoking weed. Yet the results are vastly different by law enforcement. hell white collar crime is hardly enforced