Holy crap moment shooting today. - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Holy crap moment shooting today.

Dumbass with a CETME now?


Me and some friends went out shooting today, I was using the day to sight in my CETME. I had it locked in pretty good, and I had a friend spotting me. I had been firing tracers out to around 600yards trying to zero in the scope. I had finally got in zeroed, however the grouping was pretty poor with the tracers, so a friend of mine had some expensive winchester silver ballistic tip .308 rounds. I loaded one in, fired it off and I just grazed the target, much better it would seem. I checked the gun, looked light it fired just fine. I popped another round off, the brass flew off 20 feet away (as usual) and it seemed to extract properly, this shot was a miss. Now, the mystery starts. I'm just about to fire again but I made sure to check the bolt, and curiously it was not fully engaged. I pulled the bolt back and dropped it again and once again it was not engaging all the way, very odd. I pulled the mag out, inspected the rifle and nothing seemed out of the ordinary, it just wasn't funny engaging the bolt. I pulled the stock off, the trigger group, stripped it down, took a peak through the muzzle after I ran a rod down, and I could see it was completely clear, no bullet or debris in the barrel. I reassembled the gun, grabbed another one of the pretty winchester rounds. This time I pulled the bolt back, dropped the round in and slammed it forward, looked like it engaged properly this time... until I took a real careful look and it was just barely out of fulled engaged, I pulled the bolt back and ejected the round. Me and some friends stood around for a while trying to figure out what the fuck happened, and then I took a closer look at the shell... check this shit out:





I'm assuming the expansion of the (weak) case stuck in the flutes, and the (harsh) ejector ripped the back of the shell off, yeah it actually RIPPED the shell in half, ejected the rear of the case. When I slammed the next round down, it actually slid the front of the other case OVER this round, and then I was able to extract it... that is some scary shit.

no more silver tips!
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 06:41 PM
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wow! what are the fucking odds??!?!?
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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yeah no shit, and I bet it would have fired if I pulled the trigger also. I'm glad I was able to extract it without knowing it was even in there. I normally shoot 155grain, this round was a 168grain. now I've shot even higher grain rounds than that a few times, but I'm careful. I think, it just had a weak case and expanded so much it got stuck, and then (crazily) it was ripped in half.. I couldn't find the other half of the shell, but I did look for a while.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 10:21 PM
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You may want to get that chamber checked. It looks like your chamber could be slightly eroded at the throat and causing the problem. I know it's a old surplus gun, but it can happen.

I've shot lots of winchester silvertips out of my M1A and never had a issue like your rifle is showing. I've known people having issues similar with M1 Garands that have shot thousands of rounds. The fix was to rebarrel the rifle.

.308 and 7.62x51 are slightly different bullets. The Military version (7.62x51) actually has a thicker brass case.

Just for safety, I think you should get your rifle check by a gunsmith. I've had one of the CETME's a long time ago and had to get if fixed because of a jamming issue. Shortly after getting it fixed, I sold it and bought my M1a.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 10:34 PM
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It could have a headspace issue, which would allow the brass to stretch too much and pull apart - when a cartridge is fired, the counter force of the bullet and gases going down the end of the barrel first stretches the case back to the boltface, and this pushes the bolt back; the brass does shrink back close to its original size in most cases, but if it has to stretch too far, it can separate.

Also, I can't tell from your post if you're aware of this or not, but the 155/168/whatever grains is the bullet weight and not the powder charge; more grains (a heavier bullet) doesn't necessarily mean higher chamber pressures.


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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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This gun is quite different from your M1's, M14's etc.. This has a fluted barrel design, it's meant to fire steel cased rounds and uses the flutes as a further gas assisted extractor.. those cuts you see in the previous brass are from the flutes. You actually don't even need an extractor in a CETME, it will blow the shell right out of the chamber just from the flutes. The weak thin cased commercial rounds cause problems in CETME's and G3's, since they expand and cut themselves into the flutes, then the extractor snaps it off, it's not entirely out of the ordinary for this to happen with commericial ammo, the interesting part is it slid another round over the collar. The barrel in my CETME is german new old stock, I welded the trunion together a few weeks ago and set the proper bolt gap - the rifle is actually in perfect order. The mistake was mine when I decided to shoot the ammo, I assumed since it was silver it was a steel cased round, when in fact it's just coated (thin) brass. Most commercial ammo is just too thin cased to work in the gun, steel cased Monarch ammo works great though. I'll just have to keep to military NATO round with the thicker brass. But yeah as for the grain I guess I was a little ambiguous as to what I meant. The .308 winchester commercial round is hotter than a standard 155 grain 7.62x51 NATO round, coupled with the thinner brass makes it a bastard on the flutes.

Last edited by CJ; 03-31-2008 at 12:01 AM.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ
This gun is quite different from your M1's, M14's etc.. This has a fluted barrel design, it's meant to fire steel cased rounds and uses the flutes as a further gas assisted extractor.. those cuts you see in the previous brass are from the flutes. You actually don't even need an extractor in a CETME, it will blow the shell right out of the chamber just from the flutes. The weak thin cased commercial rounds cause problems in CETME's and G3's, since they expand and cut themselves into the flutes, then the extractor snaps it off, it's not entirely out of the ordinary for this to happen with commericial ammo, the interesting part is it slid another round over the collar. The barrel in my CETME is german new old stock, I welded the trunion together a few weeks ago and set the proper bolt gap - the rifle is actually in perfect order. The mistake was mine when I decided to shoot the ammo, I assumed since it was silver it was a steel cased round, when in fact it's just coated (thin) brass. Most commercial ammo is just too thin cased to work in the gun, steel cased Monarch ammo works great though. I'll just have to keep to military NATO round with the thicker brass. But yeah as for the grain I guess I was a little ambiguous as to what I meant. The .308 winchester commercial round is hotter than a standard 155 grain 7.62x51 NATO round, coupled with the thinner brass makes it a bastard on the flutes.
Think what you wish, I owned a CETME before. (Read my post above.). I fired many many rounds out of it (.308 commercial) and primarily the 150 grain winchester silvertips. I never had a issue with a shell being ripped apart like yours is doing. Again I think you probably have a headspace issue with yours. It will probably be fine with military brass due to it being sightly thicker, but I would still get the gun checked. I personally would not want it to explode in my face.

Again, the only reason I got rid of my CETME was a jamming issue, which I fixed by welding a extension on the follower that guides the bolt. A month or so later I sold the rifle and bought a M1A.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dacotua
Think what you wish, I owned a CETME before. (Read my post above.). I fired many many rounds out of it (.308 commercial) and primarily the 150 grain winchester silvertips. I never had a issue with a shell being ripped apart like yours is doing. Again I think you probably have a headspace issue with yours. It will probably be fine with military brass due to it being sightly thicker, but I would still get the gun checked. I personally would not want it to explode in my face.

Again, the only reason I got rid of my CETME was a jamming issue, which I fixed by welding a extension on the follower that guides the bolt. A month or so later I sold the rifle and bought a M1A.
It's well documented that commercial .308 causes problems, not always but it can. I've fired probably 50 or 60 commercial rounds through it, and 3 silver tips before this happened. Not to mention thousands upon thousands of steel cased monarch rounds. If you visit militaryfirearm.com and view the cetme section, I posted this up there as well, and there is about 20 posts following mine of similiar stories and people absolutely flaming anyone for firing commercial ammo.

Last edited by CJ; 03-31-2008 at 10:43 AM.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 11:14 AM
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that is some crazy shit.
I keep thinking there is no way that should have slid into the broken piece of brass.
I would think chamber erosion (if there is a such thing) , orheadspace.

fuck fluted chambers - a solution to a non problem!

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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 03-31-2008, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by futant
fuck fluted chambers - a solution to a non problem!
I couldn't agree more.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-01-2008, 12:35 AM
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x2, it really only makes sense if your first and foremost priority is positive ejection with a steel cased round.

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-01-2008, 12:48 AM
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scary as hell!!!!!!!!!

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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-02-2008, 02:45 PM
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Winchester silvertip. Lower tier crap and contract rejects. French owned, Israeli made, dumped in massive lots by Italian exporters and sold to Arkansas distributers
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