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post #1 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 10:55 PM Thread Starter
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Forming a trust

I plan on picking up a Walther P22 at the gun show in a few weeks... then putting a can on it.

I don't really want to mess with CLEO signatures and stuff, so I might do a trust.


Anyone want to school me?



What is involved? Is there a cost associated with it? What are the different kinds and what are the pros/cons?


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post #2 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 10:59 PM
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I would like to know as well. I plan on getting one for my 9mm and my .22. I am not sure which way would be better.

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post #3 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 11:40 PM
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The easiest way to create a trust is to go buy Quicken Willmaker.

Use the basic revocable living trust option and it will guide you through the setup.

Once the trust has been created all you do is mail in a copy of the certificate of trust with 2 Form 4s and a $200.00 check to the ATF. The forms are filled out to the trust ie:Stroked71Bowtie's Revocable Living Trust. You sign the form as Stroked71Bowtie, Trustee. Texas doesnt require any filing of the trust.

Then wait the normal time. Once the item is transferred to the trust, it gets added to teh trust inventory schedule.

Pros: No CLEO signature, fingerprints, or photos.

Cons: Many believe the ATF can and eventually will at anytime do away with the trust route. Many also believe that while using a $50.00 program to get your items is a good way, you get what you pay for. There's no wording in there specifically dealing with NFA stuff.
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post #4 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
Cons: Many believe the ATF can and eventually will at anytime do away with the trust route. Many also believe that while using a $50.00 program to get your items is a good way, you get what you pay for. There's no wording in there specifically dealing with NFA stuff.

Knowing this, do you think I should try for the CLEO sigs and do the other route first, then do a trust if that falls through?


If I have supressors, SBRs, etc in the name of my trust and then the ATF does away with the trust route, woud I have to go back and get CLEO sigs for every item like I would have had to do originally? Or would everything be grandfathered?


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post #5 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
Knowing this, do you think I should try for the CLEO sigs and do the other route first, then do a trust if that falls through?


If I have supressors, SBRs, etc in the name of my trust and then the ATF does away with the trust route, woud I have to go back and get CLEO sigs for every item like I would have had to do originally? Or would everything be grandfathered?
Personally Id try for the signatures first.

No one can say if the previous trust approvals will be grandfathered etc. Some feel that when the trust route is done away with, registration will have to be done all over thus making you get a CLEO signature.

But right now it's all skepticism, like a new AWB.
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post #6 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:13 AM Thread Starter
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In Arlington, without knowing a judge, I would have to go to the chief of police? Judges in other cities/counties don't count do they?

What are my options as far as CLEO's go? And what exactly do I take to them? Just the Form 4 (two copies?)

Also, will the signatures "expire" if not put to use in a reasonable time? I'd like to get all the necessary paperwork in order for two supressors, but will only be able to afford to buy one right now.


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post #7 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
In Arlington, without knowing a judge, I would have to go to the chief of police? Judges in other cities/counties don't count do they?

What are my options as far as CLEO's go? And what exactly do I take to them? Just the Form 4 (two copies?)

Also, will the signatures "expire" if not put to use in a reasonable time? I'd like to get all the necessary paperwork in order for two supressors, but will only be able to afford to buy one right now.
Arlington Chief of Police,'sDallas County District Judges, Game Warden, Dalllas County's dike ass sheriff;State Police Chief etc. Only CLEOs who reside over your place of residence have the authority to sign for you.

When you go to them, Id have my fingerprint cards and photos already taken care of. Most dont understand what any of it means. Showing them the depth that is involved may help.
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post #8 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
Arlington Chief of Police,'sDallas County District Judges, Game Warden, Dalllas County's dike ass sheriff;State Police Chief etc. Only CLEOs who reside over your place of residence have the authority to sign for you.

When you go to them, Id have my fingerprint cards and photos already taken care of. Most dont understand what any of it means. Showing them the depth that is involved may help.
If you get denied by one, say the APD chief, can you go to the next CLEO on the list? Or is the first denial the end of the line?


Fingerprint cards, photos (passport photos?), the actual Form 4 that needs the sig... am I missing anything?
Do I need to already have the item waiting at a dealer and have a specific serial number and things before I start this?


Thanks for the info. I'm going to start gathering my paperwork this weekend.


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post #9 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
If you get denied by one, say the APD chief, can you go to the next CLEO on the list? Or is the first denial the end of the line?


Fingerprint cards, photos (passport photos?), the actual Form 4 that needs the sig... am I missing anything?
Do I need to already have the item waiting at a dealer and have a specific serial number and things before I start this?


Thanks for the info. I'm going to start gathering my paperwork this weekend.
If you get denied by one CLEO, go to the next. Try to get the denial in writing. After, I think 3 tries, you can submit a letter to the ATF asking for personal approval because a CLEO wouldnt sign. But they want proof you tried.

The actual Form 4s get the signature. You send one to the ATF, the other comes back to you or your dealer with a tax stamp attached to it.

Yes the item should already be at your dealers. The Form 4 requires specific serial numbers and item descriptions and cant be processed without the specific info.

If said item is in state you dont need a dealer, but still require the signature of the seller on your Form 4 that you submit to the ATF. If the item is out of state, it transfers on a Form 3 between dealers, in which instance your dealer fills out the necessary Form 4 info and then you sign and get signed to submit to the ATF.
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post #10 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
Arlington Chief of Police,'sDallas County District Judges, Game Warden, Dalllas County's dike ass sheriff;State Police Chief etc. Only CLEOs who reside over your place of residence have the authority to sign for you.

When you go to them, Id have my fingerprint cards and photos already taken care of. Most dont understand what any of it means. Showing them the depth that is involved may help.
Probably a dumb question, but if you move out of the city/county where you had all this signed(after its all done and over with), do you need to report a change of address or anything like that?

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post #11 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 09:19 AM
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Think I will make this a sticky.

Thans for al the info

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post #12 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooterWS6
Probably a dumb question, but if you move out of the city/county where you had all this signed(after its all done and over with), do you need to report a change of address or anything like that?
If you're changing permanent residences you should notify the ATF through a simple letter stating you're moving and give them the new location.

If you're moving interstate, you have to file a 5320.20, which is an application to move the items interstate. This has to be done for permanent address change or temporary ie: you're just going to another state for a shoot.

Suppressors are exempt from needing a 5320.20 just for temporary interstate movement, however if the move is permanent you need to file the 5320.20.
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post #13 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Since we're asking questions...

What's the deal with SBRs. Say I want a short barreled AR. The S/N is on the lower, but the upper is the reason for needing the signoff. How are the upper and lower connected in the eyes of the law, since you can't just permanently pin them together? Would an SBR upper have it's own unique S/N?


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post #14 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
If you're changing permanent residences you should notify the ATF through a simple letter stating you're moving and give them the new location.

If you're moving interstate, you have to file a 5320.20, which is an application to move the items interstate. This has to be done for permanent address change or temporary ie: you're just going to another state for a shoot.

Suppressors are exempt from needing a 5320.20 just for temporary interstate movement, however if the move is permanent you need to file the 5320.20.
Ok, cool. So even if you go for a shoot you need to send that form in?
What kind of leeway do you think youd need to give on something like that, or is it more or less a form you send in and dont need to wait for a reply?
Im also assuming you need to check the state laws before you want to move to see if theyre allowed and if theres any other paperwork/hoops to jump thru.


Im also curious about the SBR stuff Matt posted too...


Change the thread title to the "Ask David" thread....

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post #15 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
Since we're asking questions...

What's the deal with SBRs. Say I want a short barreled AR. The S/N is on the lower, but the upper is the reason for needing the signoff. How are the upper and lower connected in the eyes of the law, since you can't just permanently pin them together? Would an SBR upper have it's own unique S/N?
With SBRs it's the exact same thing with normal guns. The receiver is the registered part.

When someone wants to SBR a firearm, they fill out a Form 1. A Form 1 is an application to make and register a firearm (this is to apply to make anything besides machine guns for the general public).

Form 1s are handled the same way as Form 4s for the most part. Form 1s require CLEO signature, photo, and fingerprints plus a $200 check, or $5 for AOWs.

The SBR thing, and same with anything else you make, you list the current manufacturer of the lower, then add any additional new info to the rifle. This is where you'd place "Stroked71Bowtie, Arlington, TX". This makes you the new manufacturer. This must also be engraved on your lower.
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post #16 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PooterWS6
Ok, cool. So even if you go for a shoot you need to send that form in?
What kind of leeway do you think youd need to give on something like that, or is it more or less a form you send in and dont need to wait for a reply?
Im also assuming you need to check the state laws before you want to move to see if theyre allowed and if theres any other paperwork/hoops to jump thru.


Im also curious about the SBR stuff Matt posted too...


Change the thread title to the "Ask David" thread....
You're allowed to move the item anywhere in your home state without ATF approval. Once you move across state lines, you must get ATF approval. Supressors are exempt from needing approval.

Generally, approval will never be denied. UNless on the form you state it's to kill millions of people or some stupid shit. Also it will be denied if you're planning on traveling to a state that doesnt like machine guns such as California etc.
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post #17 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
With SBRs it's the exact same thing with normal guns. The receiver is the registered part.

When someone wants to SBR a firearm, they fill out a Form 1. A Form 1 is an application to make and register a firearm (this is to apply to make anything besides machine guns for the general public).

Form 1s are handled the same way as Form 4s for the most part. Form 1s require CLEO signature, photo, and fingerprints plus a $200 check, or $5 for AOWs.

The SBR thing, and same with anything else you make, you list the current manufacturer of the lower, then add any additional new info to the rifle. This is where you'd place Stroked71Bowtie, Arlington, TX. This makes you the new manufacturer. This must also be engraved on your lower.

But nothing has to be engraved on the upper?

Does that mean that I could go through the Form 1 process the first time i SBR a rifle... but once it's approved and goes through, I could buy any number of SBR uppers as long as they are only used on that specific lower that was approved?


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post #18 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 11:02 AM
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All the necessary forms can be found below so everyone knows what Im referring to to get an idea. They're in fillable PDF format. Just remember when you fill them out and print them off, the forms have to be front and back.

http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm
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post #19 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
But nothing has to be engraved on the upper?

Does that mean that I could go through the Form 1 process the first time i SBR a rifle... but once it's approved and goes through, I could buy any number of SBR uppers as long as they are only used on that specific lower that was approved?
Nothing get engraved on the upper, it's not the registered part.

That's one thing Im not 100% on. Some say you can, others say you need to notify the ATF. You use to be able to fill out the Form 1 and say in the length category and list "multiple" and same for the caliber. But now they're wanting specifics it seems.
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post #20 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
You're allowed to move the item anywhere in your home state without ATF approval. Once you move across state lines, you must get ATF approval. Supressors are exempt from needing approval.

Generally, approval will never be denied. UNless on the form you state it's to kill millions of people or some stupid shit. Also it will be denied if you're planning on traveling to a state that doesnt like machine guns such as California etc.
Ah, ok, I just wasnt sure if its a big long process, or pretty easy...
That doesnt sound too bad.

Thanks for the info David

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post #21 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:39 PM
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Ah, ok, I just wasnt sure if its a big long process, or pretty easy...
That doesnt sound too bad.

Thanks for the info David
Nah, it's easy. You just fill it out, give where you're going, what excuse, what items you're taking, the location, and time frame then sign. I fax mine in and have it back in a week, if IM not in a hurry I'll mail it and have it back in 14 days.
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post #22 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:40 PM
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if i form a trust

what am i going to write in #17 on form 4?

also what do i put as the reason i need this for #15? i dont think i can write "it will be cool to have."

do i need an ffl transfer on a supressor?
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post #23 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sp33dfr3ak
if i form a trust

what am i going to write in #17 on form 4?

also what do i put as the reason i need this for #15? i dont think i can write "it will be cool to have."

do i need an ffl transfer on a supressor?
Section 17 is left blank since it's the area for the CLEO signature.

Section 15 you can put whatever you feel. I put "For All Lawful Purposes", just to cover all legal spectrums. As long as it doesnt say "for the eventual overthrow of the US government" or "to kill many peoples", they'll approve you. My next Form 4 will have "Because chicks dig them and all lawful purposes".

If the supressor is out of state, you need to have a dealer who is licensed in NFA items do a transfer for you to bring it into the state etc.
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post #24 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
Section 17 is left blank since it's the area for the CLEO signature.

Section 15 you can put whatever you feel. I put "For All Lawful Purposes", just to cover all legal spectrums. As long as it doesnt say "for the eventual overthrow of the US government" or "to kill many peoples", they'll approve you. My next Form 4 will have "Because chicks dig them and all lawful purposes".

If the supressor is out of state, you need to have a dealer who is licensed in NFA items do a transfer for you to bring it into the state etc.
I take it most shops are not class 3 dealers? Do you have a list, or know where I can find a list, of shops around DFW?



FWIW, the title of the thread should probably be changed to something like "NFA/Class 3 info."


Also, I found this. It seems pretty comprehensive for the NFA noobs like myself.





Steps for buying NFA (Class III) Weaponry

Including but not limited to: machine guns, silencers, Destructive Devices, All Other Weapons (AOW: cane guns, pen guns, etc.), short-barreled rifles (SBR), short-barrel shotguns (SBS).

1. You must be at least 21 old and legal buy a handgun (meaning no felonies, violent misdemeanors, dishonorable discharges, etc.).

2. Call your local CLEO (sheriff, police chief, etc.) and ask what his procedure is for signing Form 4 (federal applications for NFA transfer and ownership, supplied by your Class III dealer). SEE STEP 5*

Make sure that he will sign for you BEFORE you buy the firearm. If he won't sign, you can't get the gun. Make sure you can own it BEFORE you buy it, as payment must usually be made in full before the weapon is ordered. (You have to have the serial number before any paperwork can be processed to begin the transfer.)

3. Get two 2" X 2" passport photographs. Attach one to the reverse side of each of the two copies of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) Form 4 given to you. These photos typically cost $5 to $10.

4. Complete a small section on the reverse side of the BATF Form 4 that declares why you wish to possess the item. Most folks say "Collector of firearms".

5. Take the two copies of the Form 4, with pictures attached and your section completed, to your local law enforcement agency. Also take the two FBI FD-258 fingerprint cards given to you by your dealer. Ask the agency to officially take your fingerprints. This will usually cost $10 to $15.

You have to get a local to sign off and complete the section of the reverse side of the Form 4. This merely attests that you are not wanted locally and that the official knows of no law which will be broken if you are approved by the government. The official signing should be made aware that they are not held liable if you do something stupid or break the law.

*Locals that can be asked to sign off are: police chiefs or local law enforcement officers of the same rank, sheriffs, city or town police chiefs, state police commanders, district attorneys, state attorney generals, and judges of state courts that preside over felony trials.

If you own a corporation: you can transfer the NFA firearm to the corporation and no CLEO signature is necessary.

6. Bring your dealer the two copies of the Form 4 and both completed fingerprint cards with a money order or certified check made out to the BATF ($5.00 for an "AOW" or $200.00 for silencer, machine-gun, destructive device, SBR, SBS). This is a one time fee for life!!

The dealer will complete the front of the forms, put the two copies of the completed Form 4, the two completed fingerprint cards and the money order (or certified check) in an envelope and send it to the BATF.

7. You also have to mail a form (supplied by your dealer) to the Department of the Treasury. This form is called the Certification of Compliance, 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B), ATF Form 5330.20, which simply states that you are a United States citizen. You fill it out, your dealer gives you the address, and you send it in.

8. The BATF will first remove the money order and examine the paperwork for completeness. It will be assigned to an agent, who will have a nationwide FBI background check performed on you. Once you pass this (all legal folks over 21 pass it), the BATF will mail your dealer one certified copy of of the Form 4 sent them. On this copy will be a stamp that looks like a postage stamp. This is a Federal tax stamp indicating the transfer tax is paid and the item is officially yours.

9. When your dealer receives this Form 4 with the stamp on it (about 90-120 days after you originally mail it), your dealer will call you to come in and complete a BATF Form 4473 (supplied by your dealer) and give you the product along with the Form 4.

You should immediately make several copies of the Form 4 and carry one with you at all times when you have the NFA product with you. Be sure to put the original in a safe place.

ALL THIS SOUNDS COMPLICATED, BUT your dealer should WALK YOU THROUGH EACH PHASE SO YOU CAN GET THE WEAPONRY YOU DESIRE.



Legal Terms of NFA (Class III) Weaponry Ownership

Once you have legal possession of the Class III item you may not take the item across state lines unless you notify the BATF in writing before doing so. These forms are available on the Internet, or we can make a copy for you. You are not asking for their approval but, instead, merely letting them know you are taking a Class III item across state lines and when you will depart and return.

You may not loan this Class III item to anyone.

You may not store this item at a friend's home who has access to it.

This is a restricted distribution item. To possess it requires (at the very least) an extensive background check. You are obligated by law (and common sense) to prevent unqualified people from gaining access to it. You may let others use the item if they remain in your physical presence.

If you decide to sell the item you must bring the item to a Class III dealer and the buyer to legally effect the transfer. The buyer then has to go through all the steps described above and pay the required transfer tax.




Also, ATF NFA Handbook: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_...ndbook-rev.pdf


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Last edited by Stroked71Bowtie; 12-23-2007 at 01:22 PM.
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post #25 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Some more stuff I found: http://publicrights.org/NFA/FedForms.html


All links should be active and go to the documents.

An Overview of the NFA Federal Forms

General Forms Link

The following forms require the sign-off. All the sign-offs are worded the same way except for #1 which substitutes the word maker in it for transferee. All the forms are non-libelous for the LEO.


ATF F 5320.1
Form 1 is for an individual to register his own manufactured suppressor, short barrel rifle or shotgun $200 tax due. -application to register a weapon as a NFA item REQUIRES THE SAME SIGN OFF (use the word maker because it has to do with manufacturing)-THIS FORM IS UTILIZED WHEN SOMEONE IS MAKING A WEAPON AND THEY WANT TO REGISTER IT WITH THE FEDS (NEEDLESS TO SAY BEFORE THEY MAKE IT) EXAMPLE: A PERSON WANTS TO CUT DOWN THE BARREL OF HIS SHOTGUN FROM 18" TO 7". HE WOULD FILL OUT THIS FORM, GET THE SIGN OFF, SEND IT TO THE FEDS FOR APPROVAL

Form 3 is for transfer between SOT dealers with no tax due


ATF F 5320.4
Form 4 application for a tax paid transfer of a NFA item for the transfer of a gun or suppressor from you to an instate individual. $200 tax REQUIRES THE SAME SIGN OFF-THIS FORM IS UTILIZED WHEN SOMEONE IS BUYING A WEAPON AND THEY WANT TO REGISTER IT WITH THE FEDS EXAMPLE: JOHN DOE WANTS TO BUY A WEAPON IN MARYLAND AND HE LIVES IN SC-GOES TO A CLASS III DEALER GETS THE FORM 4 FILLS IT OUT GETS THE SIGN-OFF THEN SENDS THE WHOLE PACKET OFF

Complete the F4 with the Corp info in the Transferee box, DO NOT put your name there. On the back in section 15, put your name & corp title there. Attach a copy of your articles on incorporation. Fill out the 5330.20 with the Corp on the first line, your name on the second line, sign & date. That's it.


ATF F 5320.5
Form 5-application for Tax-exempt transfer and Registration of firearm REQUIRES THE SAME SIGN OFF-THIS FORM IS USED WHEN SOMEONE DIES IN THE HOUSE AND THEY HAD AN NFA WEAPON. EXAMPLE: I DIE MY WIFE WOULD THEN FILL OUT THIS FORM, ENCLOSED A DEATH CERTIFICATE, GET THE SIGN-OFF AND SEND IT TO THE FEDS WHEREBY SHE WOULD GET CONTROL OF THE NFA WEAPONRY. NFA branch in Washington to get questions answered about the inheritance 1-202-927-8330 ask for Tammy this is for the average person not a dealer inheritance either put the guns in a will or fill out a form 5. needed with form 5 is a: 1. need a copy of death certificate,attachments for more than one item add to the form

THESE DO NOT REQUIRE SAID SIGN-OFFS:
Form 2-ATF F 5320.2
Form 3-ATF F 5320.3
Form 6-ATF F 5320.3A
Form 9-ATF F 5320.9
Form 10-ATF F 5320.10


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Last edited by Stroked71Bowtie; 12-23-2007 at 01:46 PM.
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post #26 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
I take it most shops are not class 3 dealers? Do you have a list, or know where I can find a list, of shops around DFW?



FWIW, the title of the thread should probably be changed to something like "NFA/Class 3 info."

Yeah, not all FFLs/gun stores are licensed to deal in NFA items. They have to pay a Special Occupation Tax to have the extension to their standard FFL.

Here's a list of dealers off of subguns:

http://www.subguns.com/c2c3/c3state.htm#Texas

Ive had friends whove dealt with Wayman and Tilotta.

Last edited by Good_Ole_Red; 12-23-2007 at 02:01 PM.
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post #27 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Ole_Red
Yeah, not all FFLs/gun stores are licensed to deal in NFA items. They have to pay a Special Occupation Tax to have the extension to their standard FFL.

Here's a list of dealers off of subguns:

http://www.subguns.com/c2c3/c3state.htm#Texas

Ive had friends whove dealt with Wayman and Tilotta.
Ooooooh, just checked out Western Firearms' site (Tilotta).

Coastal Gun can for a P22, with the threaded bbl adapter, in stock. I think I'll give them a call after Christmas.


EDIT: Still learning here... when it comes to me buying something, what's the difference between something (like this supressor) being a Form 3 or a Form 4 item?
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post #28 of 58 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroked71Bowtie
Ooooooh, just checked out Western Firearms' site (Tilotta).

Coastal Gun can for a P22, with the threaded bbl adapter, in stock. I think I'll give them a call after Christmas.


EDIT: Still learning here... when it comes to me buying something, what's the difference between something (like this supressor) being a Form 3 or a Form 4 item?
Definately call Tilotta, his site is rarely updated if ever.

A Form 3 is a tax free form used to transfer an item from one dealer to another.

If the item is in stock on a Form 4 here in Texas. It transfers to you Form 4 with a $200 tax. If the item is on a Form 3 with your dealer, it's the same as Form 4 to Form 4.

If the item is on a Form 4 say in Oklahoma. You pay one $200 tax for the seller to transfer the item from a Form 4 to his Dealers Form 3. Then your dealer and his dealer will transfer the item on a Form 3. At which time you'd pay another $200 tax to have the item transfer from your dealers Form 3 to your Form 4.

Stuff already being on a Form 3 just makes the transfer process easier. If Im buying an item out of state, Im always hoping it will be on a Form 3 just to save $200.

Form 3s are also used for Sample guns.
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post #29 of 58 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 12:52 PM
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Just to update on this.

Some examiners are now requiring you to mail in your Declaration of Trust along with everything else. Apparently the ATF is looking into trust purchases a lot more in depth. Some examiners are requiring the declaration, others aren't. So it may be a good thing to include to keep the process flowing if your examiner happens to be one who wants the thing.
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post #30 of 58 (permalink) Old 05-03-2008, 04:56 PM
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I'm thinking the "to kill many peoples" blurb would be kind of cool.

Unfortunately, someone will probably attempt this route in order to hold it up as an example of why the whole thing should be revamped (revamped in government speak means something different than improved). Like a mIchael Moore type.
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post #31 of 58 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 02:29 PM
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What does your background have to look like for these "CLEOs" to sign off on you? What are they looking for etc? I have some misdemeanors, nothing serious, no felonies, no assaults etc.
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post #32 of 58 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue88Coupe
What does your background have to look like for these "CLEOs" to sign off on you? What are they looking for etc? I have some misdemeanors, nothing serious, no felonies, no assaults etc.
It totally varies by the CLEO.

Some do a thurough background check, some automatically sign and dont do anything. Afterall, the ATF has the last choice on whether or not you are approved to own the item.

But like I said it varies. They can sign all they want, or only sign for people with clean records, or not sign at all.

Odds are if right this second you could go in and buy a pistol, you could get a signature etc.
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post #33 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 08:18 AM
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Newbie question: Can someone list out what all the acronyms stand for?

thanks
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post #34 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Newbie question: Can someone list out what all the acronyms stand for?

thanks
Which acronyms? There's plenty that's for sure.

CLEO=Certified Law Enforcement Official
NFA=National Firearms Act
SBR=Short Barreled Rifle
SBS=Short Barreled Shotgun
AOW=Any Other Weapon
MG=Machine Gun
DD=Destructive Device
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post #35 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Which acronyms? There's plenty that's for sure.

CLEO=Certified Law Enforcement Official
NFA=National Firearms Act
SBR=Short Barreled Rifle
SBS=Short Barreled Shotgun
AOW=Any Other Weapon
MG=Machine Gun
DD=Destructive Device
Thank you, that covered the ones I was curious about.
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post #36 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 07:56 AM
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I'm wanting to pick up an AOW Dlask Arms Remington 870 Shorty ..

So I need to get quicken will maker and use the basic revocable living trust option.

Which form do I need to fill out?

"His tricked out trans am guzzles every dime he brings home"

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Buy my F-150 Vortech Setup! - Link
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post #37 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:54 AM
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An AOW only carries a $5 transfer tax. Just pay the $5 and be done with it.

Never wrap it up, never pull out. Just grind up the morning after pill in her scrambled eggs at sunrise, she'll appreciate that you made her breakfast.
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post #38 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyb0b81
An AOW only carries a $5 transfer tax. Just pay the $5 and be done with it.
Yeah I understand that, but I still have to do a trust right?

Do I need to fill out any other forms?

"His tricked out trans am guzzles every dime he brings home"

2004 RC SWB F150 5.4 - Saleen S/C'd 5.4 3V
1979 Pace Car - Not the usual mods
1984 Gt-350 - Trickflow'd 302
1992 Coupe - Vortech'd 393
1997 Viper GTS - H/C and Giggles

Buy my F-150 Vortech Setup! - Link
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post #39 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FATHERFORD
Yeah I understand that, but I still have to do a trust right?

Do I need to fill out any other forms?
You're dealer or individual seller willl have you fill out a Form 4.
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post #40 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:24 AM
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cool so the way I understand it is the process goes like this..

trust
pay for gun
transfer to dealer
dealer will mail YOU the form 4's and citizenship form with info already on it. you sign
mail to atf +$5
wait
pick up gun

"His tricked out trans am guzzles every dime he brings home"

2004 RC SWB F150 5.4 - Saleen S/C'd 5.4 3V
1979 Pace Car - Not the usual mods
1984 Gt-350 - Trickflow'd 302
1992 Coupe - Vortech'd 393
1997 Viper GTS - H/C and Giggles

Buy my F-150 Vortech Setup! - Link
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post #41 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FATHERFORD
cool so the way I understand it is the process goes like this..

trust
pay for gun
transfer to dealer
dealer will mail YOU the form 4's and citizenship form with info already on it. you sign
mail to atf +$5
wait
pick up gun
That's pretty much it.
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post #42 of 58 (permalink) Old 11-27-2008, 07:50 AM
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My trust was just finished. Now to get home and buy a silencer or two maybe even a sbr while I am at it.
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post #43 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-17-2009, 12:17 PM
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So Form 1 for an SBR, can I assign to a trust? I have a suppressor and SBR in my name, but would like to do this next round through a trust. I have the quicken software, just need guidance. :-)

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post #44 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 06:33 PM
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Purchased three suppressors today.
Gemtech Outback II for the P22 Walther
Gemtech Tundar 9mm for the XD9 5" - I need to order threaded barrells now
Gemtech G5 for the AR15s - I need to submitt for a SBR on my M&P and order a 10.5" barrell for it

The paper work is being drawn up today and I am signing it tomorrow along with my checks for the ATF Stamps
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post #45 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 06:20 PM
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I just formed a trust this week.

I used this lady-
http://nfa-trusts.com/


Her name is Misty Barajas and she specifically drafts NFA trusts for a living. Let me tell you, from a legal standpoint this thing is bullet proof. There is 12 pages of legal mumbo jumbo, half of which specifically deals with NFA items!

There is all kinds of wording specifically addressing machine guns, suppressors, etc.


I would highly recommend using her. She was very helpful and described the process of buying an item very well. It was unusual hearing a woman spout off information about SBRs and destructive devices, but very cool. I would highly recommend using Misty if you want to cut down on wait time for your NFA items, or if you dont want to mess with a CLEO signature.
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post #46 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
I just formed a trust this week.

I used this lady-
http://nfa-trusts.com/


Her name is Misty Barajas and she specifically drafts NFA trusts for a living. Let me tell you, from a legal standpoint this thing is bullet proof. There is 12 pages of legal mumbo jumbo, half of which specifically deals with NFA items!

There is all kinds of wording specifically addressing machine guns, suppressors, etc.


I would highly recommend using her. She was very helpful and described the process of buying an item very well. It was unusual hearing a woman spout off information about SBRs and destructive devices, but very cool. I would highly recommend using Misty if you want to cut down on wait time for your NFA items, or if you dont want to mess with a CLEO signature.
whats she gonna run you??

god bless.

You don't have to earn my respect, you have to earn my disrespect.

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Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Standing in a cell with tears running down your face and blood down your legs is no way to protest.
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post #47 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
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whats she gonna run you??

god bless.
'Bout $600

It is however, much better than using willmaker. Like I mentioned, much of the wording deals specifically with NFA tranfers. All that is required is a notarization and the signatures of 2 witnesses. Also, the trustees must be present during the notarization.

All in all I have 20 pages of elaborate paperwork making it all air tight.
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post #48 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 06:52 PM
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that really sounds like the way to go. i assume she is in waco. anyone she could recommend in the metroplex?

god bless.

You don't have to earn my respect, you have to earn my disrespect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Standing in a cell with tears running down your face and blood down your legs is no way to protest.
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post #49 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELVIS View Post
that really sounds like the way to go. i assume she is in waco. anyone she could recommend in the metroplex?

god bless.
Shes actually based out of Houston. I corresponded with her via e-mail and the phone. She sent me a questionnaire, which I filled it out promptly. She drafted the trust in about 3-4 days via the info I sent her and then sent me back both the Trust and the Certification of Trust. Also, she provided a sample of a form 4 filled out by a trust, which is a bunch of help.

I can honestly say that it was a good and informative experience. The Waco CLEO is hesitant to sign anything because of the Waco siege so this route was the best for me. It really was a painless and quick process. Visit her website (posted above) for some more info.
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post #50 of 58 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
Shes actually based out of Houston. I corresponded with her via e-mail and the phone. She sent me a questionnaire, which I filled it out promptly. She drafted the trust in about 3-4 days via the info I sent her and then sent me back both the Trust and the Certification of Trust. Also, she provided a sample of a form 4 filled out by a trust, which is a bunch of help.

I can honestly say that it was a good and informative experience. The Waco CLEO is hesitant to sign anything because of the Waco siege so this route was the best for me. It really was a painless and quick process. Visit her website (posted above) for some more info.
perfect man, thank you for the info.

god bless.

You don't have to earn my respect, you have to earn my disrespect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Standing in a cell with tears running down your face and blood down your legs is no way to protest.
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