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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Heisman Trophy: Do you think it would've been different if...

This is not a whining/arguing thread, so don't come in here with the bullshit. It's just an honest to goodness question. I think that both Bradford and McCoy were deserving of the trophy and it angers me that Tebow got so many first place votes as I've stated in another thread. That's neither here nor there now or relates to this thread. The question is simple...

If the Big 12 used a tiebreaker like other conferences and UT had gone to the conference championship and crushed Mizzou again, do you think Bradford would have still won or do you think it would've been McCoy?

I was at a Christmas party last night, and some guy brought up the point and it had me thinking did the whole tiebreaker deal end up costing McCoy the Heisman too?

Again, this is not meant to be an argument. I feel McCoy got ripped off, but if he had won, I'd feel the same about Bradford. I don't remember a year where I felt that two guys deserved it equally and you couldn't come up with a tiebreak between them that was legit. Thanks for playing along.

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 09:37 PM
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 09:49 PM
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More then likely McCoy would've won.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 09:50 PM
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A lot of things would have made a difference. Most of all, beating Tech would have helped immensely...

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Studly
good conversation piece, but on this web site, this is really old
Like I said, I'm not looking for the same old stuff, just a question. I don't know if it would've come out any differently. There are so many voters across the country that don't get to watch all the games. They see highlights and read box scores/game recaps. There is no question that Bradford's numbers look better. The only numbers that McCoy beat him in were completion percentage, rushing yards, and he had a win over a higher ranked opponent. Even with McCoy accounting for over 70% of his offense, I'm not so sure that another game where he was the only one playing would've made a difference to those voters. I was just curious what others thought.

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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 10:37 PM
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 08:07 AM
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It's an unfortunate tendency that has been going on this decade that in order to win the Heisman, you have to be on a team that is in the Fake BCS National Championship game. Since 2000, only Carson Palmer has won the Heisman with out being in the National Championship game.

The last time a Heisman winner wasn't even in a BCS Bowl Game was in '98 - Ricky Williams.

To me, it was a draw between Bradford and McCoy. I leaned more toward McCoy, but I had a feeling Bradford would get it because he's going to the BCS National Championship game.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 08:44 AM
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with out a doubt not being the big 12 title game hurt mccoy chances, a lot of voters get to watch those games since it one of a few games on that day. But you also have to look at how Mack Brown acted toward the end of the season, and that could have swayed voters to vote for bradford or even tebow.

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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 02:08 PM
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Given the chance to be on center stage in front of the entire Country, I think McCoy would have won the Heisman. As long as he had halfway decent numbers. (250+ passing yards/2-3 Tds) And that would have been fairly likely against Missouri.

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiceweezl
This is not a whining/arguing thread, so don't come in here with the bullshit. It's just an honest to goodness question. I think that both Bradford and McCoy were deserving of the trophy and it angers me that Tebow got so many first place votes as I've stated in another thread. That's neither here nor there now or relates to this thread. The question is simple...

If the Big 12 used a tiebreaker like other conferences and UT had gone to the conference championship and crushed Mizzou again, do you think Bradford would have still won or do you think it would've been McCoy?

I was at a Christmas party last night, and some guy brought up the point and it had me thinking did the whole tiebreaker deal end up costing McCoy the Heisman too?

Again, this is not meant to be an argument. I feel McCoy got ripped off, but if he had won, I'd feel the same about Bradford. I don't remember a year where I felt that two guys deserved it equally and you couldn't come up with a tiebreak between them that was legit. Thanks for playing along.
Stop dealing in the hypothetical and maybe we can talk.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
Stop dealing in the hypothetical and maybe we can talk.
Coming from the moral victory champion of DFWstangs, lol.

Anyway, for once in a million posts I agree with WN8. It is a long enduring trend that the Heisman winner plays in the MNC. Just plain "making it" there drums up a whole bunch of energy around the player. Further, a late season loss hurts the Heisman candidate just as it does a team. Luckily, most voters are more sensible than Cartman and Mack's actions had little negative affect on voters and if anything helped in terms of publicity.
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 04:26 PM
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Are you guys ever going to stop crying about all of this? There are enough whiney fruitcakes in all of these threads to cure an ocean's-worth of scurvy.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 04:54 PM
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Are you guys ever going to stop crying about all of this? There are enough whiney fruitcakes in all of these threads to cure an ocean's-worth of scurvy.
Proof you're just buying into the anti-UT Kool Aid. There is no whining, bitching at all here. Things both BCS and applicable awards are not always perfectly defined and mechanical in nature. It's a reasonable discussion and worth wondering and considering how things play/played out. If only people with perspectives/opinions such as yours could stay out of it...

Come in here and say, "No it wouldn't have changed it for this and that reason" or "Bradford shoulda/woulda still won it because blank". That's fine, that's big boy talk. Come in here with the "stfu winerz" isn't. Hell, WN8 hates UT with a fiery passion in his soul and he came in here with some good information about past trends/winners. You, slow99 even Badass2000GT came in here with no contribution, exactly what the OP asked for you not to. The whining about "whining" is worse than any of the original "whining" at this point.

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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude
Proof you're just buying into the anti-UT Kool Aid. There is no whining, bitching at all here. Things both BCS and applicable awards are not always perfectly defined and mechanical in nature. It's a reasonable discussion and worth wondering and considering how things play/played out. If only people with perspectives/opinions such as yours could stay out of it...

Come in here and say, "No it wouldn't have changed it for and reason" or "Bradford shoulda/woulda still won it because ". That's fine, that's big boy talk. Come in here with the "stfu winerz" isn't. Hell, WN8 hates UT with a fiery passion in his soul and he came in here with some good information about past trends/winners. You, slow99 even Badass2000GT came in here with no contribution, exactly what the OP asked for you not to. The wining about "wining" is worse than any of the original "wining" at this point.
And that's different from anyone buying into the pro-UT Kool Aid?
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 05:23 PM
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And that's different from anyone buying into the pro-UT Kool Aid?
Like I said, I really don't care your opinions on UT. Discuss it either way, hell, discuss what could have made Griffin more in the running. But whining about the whining? -
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 99BRINGIT
Given the chance to be on center stage in front of the entire Country, I think McCoy would have won the Heisman. As long as he had halfway decent numbers. (250+ passing yards/2-3 Tds) And that would have been fairly likely against Missouri.
Great point. I tend to agree with this one and even the one about playing in the MNC. That brings up another question I've always asked. Why do they hold voting until after conference championships (a week when only 2 teams from a conference play) instead of holding it until after the bowls? Theoretically the bowl games SHOULD be one of the toughest games if not the toughest opponents a team will face all year. Wouldn't that atmosphere bring out the true merit of a player? I understand it in pro sports where not many teams make it in (except NBA and NHL), but there are so many bowl games and the nation gets to see practically all of them, so it would seem voting afterwards would make more sense.

On a side note, thanks to those with solid contributions and likewise GTFO to those who whine or whine about whiners. Grow up.

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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 08:23 PM
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Or why not do it before the bowl games to level it for everyone, that way there are no inflated stats and no special highlights?
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 08:40 PM
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[QUOTE=Who Needs 8]It's an unfortunate tendency that has been going on this decade that in order to win the Heisman, you have to be on a team that is in the Fake BCS National Championship game. Since 2000, only Carson Palmer has won the Heisman with out being in the National Championship game.
QUOTE]

Tebow won last year & if im not mistaken, Florida lost 4 games & was nowhere near the National Championship game.
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 09:10 PM
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[QUOTE=BlueThunder99TA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who Needs 8
It's an unfortunate tendency that has been going on this decade that in order to win the Heisman, you have to be on a team that is in the Fake BCS National Championship game. Since 2000, only Carson Palmer has won the Heisman with out being in the National Championship game.
QUOTE]

Tebow won last year & if im not mistaken, Florida lost 4 games & was nowhere near the National Championship game.
Yeah, your right. For some reason I was think McFadden won last year.

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 09:25 PM
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You, slow99 even Badass2000GT came in here with no contribution, exactly what the OP asked for you not to.
My sincerest apologies to the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Studly
Not to mention the UT vs. OU thing has everyone not only in these forums, but in the entire free world, beaten into submission. I would stand up for Sooner Nation until I am blue in the face, but I am even tired of the controversy, arguments and speculation.

The bottom line is, we don't know if McCoy would have won, nobody knows, therefore there shouldn't be a discussion.
Yeah, that was my thought.
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 09:03 AM
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Bradford deserved it.
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 09:26 AM
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Bradford deserved it.
Of course he did...you're from OKC.

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueThunder99TA

Yeah, your right. For some reason I was think McFadden won last year.
I only wished he did

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 08:28 AM
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Great point. I tend to agree with this one and even the one about playing in the MNC.
I think it would be pretty easy to say, that when Oklahoma got the nod over Texas in the final BCS rankings...it pretty much cost Texas.....


1. Big 12 Title
2. Heisman Trophy
3. Nat'l Title


I think thats pretty significant. And I honestly believe that is the only differenciator. Whoever ended up higher in that final BCs rankings was the difference between getting 3 of those 3, or 0 of those 3.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99BRINGIT
I think it would be pretty easy to say, that when Oklahoma got the nod over Texas in the final BCS rankings...it pretty much cost Texas.....


1. Big 12 Title
2. Heisman Trophy
3. Nat'l Title


I think thats pretty significant. And I honestly believe that is the only differenciator. Whoever ended up higher in that final BCs rankings was the difference between getting 3 of those 3, or 0 of those 3.
Quite possibly so. I think it would've been a sweep for UT if they had won the tiebreak. The Heisman is the only thing in question. Like I said earlier, Bradford is certainly deserving and has put on a show all season, but especially the last few weeks when he was on national TV each weekend -- much like McCoy did for that stretch in the middle of the season. Bradford may have still won it anyway. I'm just still angered that Tebow got more first place votes than either guy. Do the people that voted him first actually watch football outside of Florida and the SEC?

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude
Coming from the moral victory champion of DFWstangs, lol.

Anyway, for once in a million posts I agree with WN8. It is a long enduring trend that the Heisman winner plays in the MNC. Just plain "making it" there drums up a whole bunch of energy around the player. Further, a late season loss hurts the Heisman candidate just as it does a team. Luckily, most voters are more sensible than Cartman and Mack's actions had little negative affect on voters and if anything helped in terms of publicity.
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-18-2008, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl
Quite possibly so. I think it would've been a sweep for UT if they had won the tiebreak. The Heisman is the only thing in question. Like I said earlier, Bradford is certainly deserving and has put on a show all season, but especially the last few weeks when he was on national TV each weekend -- much like McCoy did for that stretch in the middle of the season. Bradford may have still won it anyway. I'm just still angered that Tebow got more first place votes than either guy. Do the people that voted him first actually watch football outside of Florida and the SEC?
ok man, I understand you are mad mccoy didn't win, we all get that. But so many of the so called experts of college football agree that Tebow might be the best player ever to play on the college level in terms of pure talent. I think he will be another VY in the NFL, but in college he can win a game on his own.

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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-18-2008, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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ok man, I understand you are mad mccoy didn't win, we all get that. But so many of the so called experts of college football agree that Tebow might be the best player ever to play on the college level in terms of pure talent. I think he will be another VY in the NFL, but in college he can win a game on his own.
1) If he were so great, he wouldn't have gotten the most 1st place votes and finished THIRD!!! His season was not even in the same vicinity as Bradford, McCoy, and even Harrell.

2) I'm not mad that McCoy didn't win or rather that Bradford won. I personally think he had an equally as deserving of a season, but it is what it is. I was just wondering if the BCS tie break for the Big 12 would've made a difference. I'm not convinced it would have.

3) Tebow is a great college player, but the "experts" are over-hyping Tebow to title him the "best player to ever play on the college level in terms of pure talent." He's nowhere near the top of the list. Heck, Harvin, his own teammate has more talent than him. McFadden did last year. I think McCoy is more talented this year and beyond -- he's a better passer, faster runner, and more prolific. Bradford by fat outshines him in the passing game. You can't question Tebow's heart and the fact that he's a great kid, but that has nothing to do with on field talent.

4) Don't even begin to compare him to VY. Tebow was on a championship team 2 years ago as a solid contributor, but in a gimmic kind of way. You can look at just 2 games and see what kind of player VY was in college. Pick either of the UT Rose Bowl victories and you'll see what he can bring to the table. Tebow is nowhere close to that level. He had a great year against the worst teams the SEC has put on the field in a decade or more. Even at that, it wasn't close to what the Big 12 guys did. Heck, Charlie Ward was just as good if not better. So were SEC guys like Walker and Bo.

If Tebow gets a chance to play in the pros, I'm not sure how he'll do. His head is much better suited for the game than VY, but he'll have to change his game completely. He's used to being bigger, stronger, and often faster than everyone else on the field (much like VY was), and that will change. There's no question he's a great leader, but I don't know how that translates into the NFL. He may be a great and elite collegiate player, but no way is he anywhere close to the "best ever."

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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-18-2008, 05:07 PM
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I heard Hitzges talking about this yesterday on his show, and he discussed some of the stupidity voters used when voting. The Heisman has become a fraud. It's been that way for years, apparently. There were guys giving first-place votes to people that aren't even close to being one of the top players in the NCAA.

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl
1) If he were so great, he wouldn't have gotten the most 1st place votes and finished THIRD!!! His season was not even in the same vicinity as Bradford, McCoy, and even Harrell.

2) I'm not mad that McCoy didn't win or rather that Bradford won. I personally think he had an equally as deserving of a season, but it is what it is. I was just wondering if the BCS tie break for the Big 12 would've made a difference. I'm not convinced it would have.

3) Tebow is a great college player, but the "experts" are over-hyping Tebow to title him the "best player to ever play on the college level in terms of pure talent." He's nowhere near the top of the list. Heck, Harvin, his own teammate has more talent than him. McFadden did last year. I think McCoy is more talented this year and beyond -- he's a better passer, faster runner, and more prolific. Bradford by fat outshines him in the passing game. You can't question Tebow's heart and the fact that he's a great kid, but that has nothing to do with on field talent.

4) Don't even begin to compare him to VY. Tebow was on a championship team 2 years ago as a solid contributor, but in a gimmic kind of way. You can look at just 2 games and see what kind of player VY was in college. Pick either of the UT Rose Bowl victories and you'll see what he can bring to the table. Tebow is nowhere close to that level. He had a great year against the worst teams the SEC has put on the field in a decade or more. Even at that, it wasn't close to what the Big 12 guys did. Heck, Charlie Ward was just as good if not better. So were SEC guys like Walker and Bo.

If Tebow gets a chance to play in the pros, I'm not sure how he'll do. His head is much better suited for the game than VY, but he'll have to change his game completely. He's used to being bigger, stronger, and often faster than everyone else on the field (much like VY was), and that will change. There's no question he's a great leader, but I don't know how that translates into the NFL. He may be a great and elite collegiate player, but no way is he anywhere close to the "best ever."
you are missing the point, some or even most voters have no idea of most of these players that are being voted on, they do some last second research and based on what they read or see is how they vote. If you read all the things written about tebow it would be hard to not see why some voted him number 1.

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