DFW Mustang Forums banner

Calling Out Phillystang

4K views 66 replies 9 participants last post by  BrianC 
#1 ·
I have been PMing Phillystang for quite some time now. We have gone back and forth about doctrine, and more specifically, free-will. Phillystang refuses to answer my scenario no matter how many times I ask him to answer it. Therefore, I have told him I will call him out right here in the forums, and if he does not answer the scenario, he is admitting he is wrong.

Philly believes that God chooses if we're saved or not, and we have no free-will in the matter. I gave the verse in Psalms 41:14-16 which says, "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him...and I will show him My salvation." Which means God's choosing us is based upon whether we choose Him of our own free-will. He knows we will choose Him ahead of time, and therefore chooses us ahead of time.

The challenge I've given Philly is to show that his view of God makes God a cruel, unloving God. Love is a choice, and if we have not the free-will to choose to love God, it is impossible for us to do so. Love cannot be forced, and yet Philly believed God forces us to love Him by choosing us against our free-will. Without choice, we do not have the capability to love. This is contradictory to God being "love" as He says He is. Which brings me to the challenge.

Here's the scenario I asked him to write:

Since humans were created by God, it means that all humans are God's children, technically. Sure, figuratively, we are called children of the devil if we have yet to choose God, but that is figurative, not literal. We are all God's children. Therefore, here is the scenario.

Write this scenario as if you were given God's duty of choosing who goes to hell and who goes to heaven (which is what you believe God does). Here are the guidelines for the scenario:

You are in a God-like position. List out the 10 most important family members and friends you have. Calvinists such as you (Philly) believe the majority of the world is going to hell. Therefore, pick 70% of the 10 people to go to hell, and 30% to go to heaven. The ones who go to hell will suffere for eternity in horrible pain and they have no choice in the matter. It is solely your choice if they go to hell or not when they die. List the 7 that go to hell and the 3 that go to heaven. After you do this, explain how your doing this shows that you are a loving, compassionate God.

If you do not do this scenario, I will assume you realized you are wrong about God but do not want to expose that here in the forum. If you answer, well... this will get real interesting. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for you and your doctrines.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I have been PMing Phillystang for quite some time now. We have gone back and forth about doctrine, and more specifically, free-will. Phillystang refuses to answer my scenario no matter how many times I ask him to answer it. Therefore, I have told him I will call him out right here in the forums, and if he does not answer the scenario, he is admitting he is wrong.
Your scenario is flawed from the beginning. It is on par with asking someone if they are still beating their wife.

Your scenario clearly does not match the real situation because you either paint man as an innocent creature (though he is described as a slave to sin in the Bible) and you paint God as just being all about love. Though He is about love, God is also about holiness and wrath and judgment. You have taken one attribute of God and overshadowed all the other attribute mentioned in the Bible.

I don't think you have an accurate view of the state of man or of the holiness of God, based upon your scenarios.


Philly believes that God chooses if we're saved or not, and we have no free-will in the matter. I gave the verse in Psalms 41:14-16 which says, "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him...and I will show him My salvation." Which means God's choosing us is based upon whether we choose Him of our own free-will. He knows we will choose Him ahead of time, and therefore chooses us ahead of time.
Sorry Brian, there is much more to it than that. Why does one man love God and one man doesn't? God must first sovereignly change the person's heart to love Him.

1 John 4:19
"We love because he first loved us."

Despite your free will tradition, there are 2 crystal clear passages from scriptures that say specifically that it is not because of our "wills" that we are saved.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

By whose doing are we in Christ?
1 Cor. 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption

Are some appointed for eternal life?
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

All that the Father gives, come.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What about those that don't come? They weren't given.
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus says He dies for the sheep
John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

He says there are some that aren't sheep.
John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Belief is something given by God
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him

Repentance is granted by God
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."


The challenge I've given Philly is to show that his view of God makes God a cruel, unloving God. Love is a choice, and if we have not the free-will to choose to love God, it is impossible for us to do so. Love cannot be forced, and yet Philly believed God forces us to love Him by choosing us against our free-will. Without choice, we do not have the capability to love. This is contradictory to God being "love" as He says He is. Which brings me to the challenge.
Here Brian argues from philosophy and not from the Bible. The reason is that Brain cannot find any biblical support for this understanding of free will and the nature of love. Why is this? Because the Bible makes no mention of free will when it comes to salvation.

Here's the scenario I asked him to write:

Since humans were created by God, it means that all humans are God's children, technically. Sure, figuratively, we are called children of the devil if we have yet to choose God, but that is figurative, not literal. We are all God's children. Therefore, here is the scenario.

Write this scenario as if you were given God's duty of choosing who goes to hell and who goes to heaven (which is what you believe God does). Here are the guidelines for the scenario:

You are in a God-like position. List out the 10 most important family members and friends you have. Calvinists such as you (Philly) believe the majority of the world is going to hell.
Jesus says few will find the road that leads to life, and many the road to destruction. You can either keep your philosophical view, or go with what Jesus said. I'll stick with Jesus.

Matthew 7:13
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Therefore, pick 70% of the 10 people to go to hell, and 30% to go to heaven. The ones who go to hell will suffere for eternity in horrible pain and they have no choice in the matter. It is solely your choice if they go to hell or not when they die. List the 7 that go to hell and the 3 that go to heaven. After you do this, explain how your doing this shows that you are a loving, compassionate God.
Why does a loving compassionate God create people that He knows will go to hell? Wouldn't they be better off having not been created in the first place?

There is no true option of salvation when from eternity past God knew that they would never accept Him. They cannot suddenly do something that God already knew they would never do.

Your scenario is flawed from the beginning because it is foolish for anyone to put themselves in God's place and be His judge based upon how you think His attributes should be displayed.

Despite your clever scenario meant to trap me, Peter says that some men are appointed to doom.

1 Peter 2:7-9

7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

8and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.


If you do not do this scenario, I will assume you realized you are wrong about God but do not want to expose that here in the forum. If you answer, well... this will get real interesting. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for you and your doctrines.
lol... only in your scenario'd make-believe world... hah!

Your flawed scenarios do not match the real situation because you either paint man as an innocent creature (though he is described as a slave to sin in the Bible) and you paint God as just being all about love. Though He is about love, God is also about holiness and wrath and judgment.


My scenario for Brian:
Let's say you have a toddler playing near a crowded street. He is there because you placed him near there (creation). As he starts to go into the street, instead of rescuing Him (God interfering, grace) out of love, you decide to let him choose for himself rather to come to you or to continue towards the dangerous traffic (free will). Since toddlers rarely obey (sin nature), he gets hit by oncoming traffic and dies.

Except in our case it is not being hit by a car, it is everlasting torment. Once again, in your view God loves choice more than He loves people.


Why do some people decide to get saved while others don't Brian?

Are they better than the others, or smarter?

Isn't this something that they can now boast in?

"I was smarter than those other heathens that didn't believe in Jesus, that's why I'm in heaven now."



Does God just see things and responds to them, or does He decree them?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Isaiah 14:24
The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.

Isaiah 14:27
For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Isaiah 46:11
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


I think your view of man and God is skewed, namely that God is fair with everyone or that everyone is on a level playing field.

I know this is not true because God says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."

What this means is that it is up to God to have mercy and he doesn't have it upon everyone... it also doesn't depend on man... even though your view says it depends upon man.

Mercy cannot be mercy and grace cannot be grace if it is earned by something I do. Then it is merely my wages... something earned. Grace and mercy are truly grace and mercy when they are undeserved, unearned, and not as a result of something someone does.


Please let me know the logical order of these passages...

Appointment comes first... then belief
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Jesus says that some aren't sheep and that the reason for their unbelief is that they are not sheep... Being a sheep comes first, and then belief.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep

Jesus died for the sheep
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
 
#10 ·
My scenario for Brian:
Let's say you have a toddler playing near a crowded street. He is there because you placed him near there (creation). As he starts to go into the street, instead of rescuing Him (God interfering, grace) out of love, you decide to let him choose for himself rather to come to you or to continue towards the dangerous traffic (free will). Since toddlers rarely obey (sin nature), he gets hit by oncoming traffic and dies.
This really isn't applicable as the toddler has no knowledge of danger. As adults, we have some sense of finality. We KNOW that we will die someday and that we either can choose to believe in something, or believe in nothing.

That is an apples/oranges scenario there.
 
#4 ·
Phillystang is a coward and won't do the scenario

Wow, Philly, I've never seen someone struggle so much to get out of answering a scenario. I've answered your scenario before, and yet you ask it again? While your scenario is really stupid, sure, I'll answer it again as soon as you answer mine.

Here's the deal. My scenario is not flawed. You just made up a lot of things that are not true about my scenario. Here are the facts (as YOU believe them):

1. God loves every one of His children (For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son...)

2. God will judge the world in the end.

3. Every person will end up either with God for eternity, or apart from Him in hell for eternity.

4. Because of the passage that the path of destruction is wide and many there are that find it, you believe most people are going to hell.

5. God must choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

(Just because you believe these things doesn't mean I do not believe them. I might believe some of them and I might not believe some of them. And this is NOT about my beliefs. It's about yours)

All of those things have been included in this scenario, and all of these things are parts of your belief system.

You said I paint man as an innocent creature. That is a bold-faced lie. I did no such thing. The people in this scenario are your friends and relatives and they are sinners just like you and me. And I have just expressed that now, so you cannot use that excuse again.

Secondly, you accuse my scenario of painting God as being JUST about love. That is also a lie! I did no such thing. God is judging these people and sending most of them to hell. That is about judgment and wrath! They will suffer for eternity totally against their free-will! There is no love in that when God is the one choosing. That's why I asked you to explain HOW God is merciful and loving in doing this.

I have just proven that the scenario is not flawed in any way, shape or form. On top of that, there WILL be a judgment day, and by your religious beliefs, you know how it will go down, and so all you would have to do to answer the scenario is say, "Well, I think it will happen more like this, so I'll write the scenario from this direction." But you don't do that, Philly. You just weasle your way out of it, because you know you're screwed.

Now, stop being a coward and answer the scenario!
 
#11 ·
Your scenario proves nothing Brian. I cannot believe you are being so immature about this, but this has been your tendency on these boards.

You cannot argue your points from the Scriptures so you turn to make believe scenarios to argue them. Sorry, that doesn't work buddy.

You are asking me to go beyond Scripture in your scenario. Sorry, I won't do that...

-No where are we told why God chooses some to save and some to leave to themselves. We are not told why, but we are told that He does this and the reason is not because of something good in man. It's because of His mercy and grace.

-No where are we told to put ourselves into God's shoes in order to understand what is true based upon how we would act in a given situation. That's not how theology is done. We look at what the Word says, not at what we would do in a given situation if we were God.

You have proven that you have emotion-based arguments and nothing else. You will not handle any of the Scriptures I provided because they prove you wrong. Period!

You will not answer my scenario on why God would create people whom He knows will never believe in Jesus, and yet in your eyes, this still somehow fits into an all loving, compassionate view of God. Can you explain that? Why did He create them in the first place?
 
#19 ·
As for your question: why did God create a world knowing many people will go to hell, and how is that loving?

I have answered this for you before, and I'll do so again, because I'm not a coward like you are.

Free-will is required for love to be a possibility. Love cannot be forced, period. For one to love, they must have the free-will to choose. Without the free-will to choose God, we are robots and incapable of love.

So, God created us with free-will, knowing that some of us would not choose Him. He knew that He would need to persuade us as much as possible, but knew that not everyone would choose Him. But it is more loving to allow us to choose on our own rather than to force some to be with us for eternity and force even more into hell. That is absolute tyrrany. It is what a dictator like Stalin does. In fact, your belief of who God is is much like Stalin. For the "greater good", some people need to die, and the dictator chooses who dies, isn't that right?

So, since God wants our sincere love, He needed to give us free-will to choose or reject Him. So, in Genesis 1:26-28, He gives us free-will by giving us dominion/sovereignty over the entire world and everything on it (including us and our souls, obviously). In other words, He cannot affect our free-will by His own orders. Otherwise, He is a sinner, completely going against what He commanded.

Now that we have free-will, He manipulates everything He can to get every one of us to accept Him. And those He knows will accept Him, He chooses them ahead of time. It's very simple.

To prove this, He says, "for those He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINED" (meaning He knew they would choose Him ahead of time, and so He chose them ahead of time to show His omniscience). He proves this also by Psalm 90:14-16:


14 “BECAUSE he has set his love upon Me, THEREFORE I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name...
15 ...I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”

That's a cause and effect. The cause is someone chose to love God of their own free-will. The effect is that God will deliver them. God calls, yes, but it is our choice whether to accept the call or not. God says the reason many do not hear the car is because they have hardened their hearts. Not He hardened their hearts. He says THEY hardned their hearts of their own free-will. When He says He raised Pharoah for His purpose, He says He hardened Pharoah's heart. Well, of course He did. He manipulated all kinds of things in Pharoah's life and He then reigned down all kinds of plagues on his nation and killed his first born! Obviously, those events all hardened Pharoah's heart. NEVER does it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. You must assume that all on your own because of your bad doctrinal beliefs.

Now, you say the word free-will is no where in the Bible, but that's not true. Not only is the word there in the Law because of the "free-will offering", but it is also displayed ALL throughout scripture. NEVER ONCE does God force anyone to do anything in scripture. Instead, God persuades everyone of what He wants them to do. Jonah is the perfect example of this. If God could control Jonah's free-will, God would've forced Jonah to go to Ninevah. And yet God did not. Instead, God persuaded Jonah by putting him in the belly of a whale till Jonah gave in and agreed to do what God wanted. I don't know what world you live in, but in the real world, that's called persuasion, not taking over someone's free-will.

You cannot find a single place in the entire Bible where God takes over someone's free-will, making them do something against it. And yet you constantly find God asking and persuading people to do His will. Obviously, I have a MUCH stronger case in scripture than you could ever begin to have with your beliefs. You claimed I never back-up my beliefs with scripture, and yet I gave you tons of scripture as we discussed this. You, my friend, are a liar. You've lied quite a few times in your above replies, which I have exposed. Be a man! Answer the scenario! Who cares if you think it's flawed?? Just answer it!

I answered your questions. Now answer mine!

Oh, and to make sure there's no confusion, God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will. There's nothing unmerciful about that, because we can choose where we go: heaven or hell. It is OUR choice. He puts out the call, but WE choose. He says MANY are called, but FEW are chosen, meaning that He calls everyone, but only some choose Him and so He only chooses those. What kind of idiot would God be if He called tons of people, but only chose to save some that He called?? Your belief system makes the Bible contradict itself specifically in that verse. And it contradicts the free-will constantly displayed all over the Bible. Our blood is on our own hands due to free-will. God had sacrificed everything, done all the work, and now all we do is choose to love Him or not. It's THAT simple, and that's OUR free-will to do. Otherwise, there is absolutely no meaning to life. If God were going to choose for us, He woud've just created us and then sent a bunch to hell and kept a bunch in heaven. No meaning to life whatsoever except for God's sick entertainment.

Also, consider that in in the end, we're not going to heaven alone. He says He will make the heaven AND earth new again. Not just heaven. Therefore, we will be able to come and go to both places. That may be off-topic, though.
 
#21 ·
As for your question: why did God create a world knowing many people will go to hell, and how is that loving?

I have answered this for you before, and I'll do so again, because I'm not a coward like you are.
Your "Christian" love is overflowing here Brian. Your question warrants no answer because it is irrational. That is like me asking you to be in a God-like position and then asking you to decide which of your family members will get cancer, which will die in a car wreck, or which will have children with major disablities... while upholding the view of a loving, compassionate God. Those are all in God's control, hopefully you agree with that, but are you going to say you can make that choice?


Free-will is required for love to be a possibility. Love cannot be forced, period. For one to love, they must have the free-will to choose. Without the free-will to choose God, we are robots and incapable of love.
Then answer my scenario. Is it loving for the parent to step in against the child's will to run in the street, or is it more loving to let the child choose of its free will if it wants to run into traffic?


So, God created us with free-will, knowing that some of us would not choose Him. He knew that He would need to persuade us as much as possible, but knew that not everyone would choose Him. But it is more loving to allow us to choose on our own rather than to force some to be with us for eternity and force even more into hell. That is absolute tyrrany. It is what a dictator like Stalin does. In fact, your belief of who God is is much like Stalin. For the "greater good", some people need to die, and the dictator chooses who dies, isn't that right?
Why didn't God just create those He knew He would be able to persuade then? Therefore my question stands unanswered- Why did He create those for whom He knew He couldn't persuade???


So, since God wants our sincere love, He needed to give us free-will to choose or reject Him. So, in Genesis 1:26-28, He gives us free-will by giving us dominion/sovereignty over the entire world and everything on it (including us and our souls, obviously). In other words, He cannot affect our free-will by His own orders. Otherwise, He is a sinner, completely going against what He commanded.
This is complete unbiblical hogwash. Where is free will in that passage? It's not. Where do we have free will over our souls? That is in God's hands. He can effect our will if He wants.

"the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing" 2 Chronicles 36:22

"I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight." Leviticus 26:36

"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled." Revelation 17:17


Now that we have free-will, He manipulates everything He can to get every one of us to accept Him. And those He knows will accept Him, He chooses them ahead of time. It's very simple.

To prove this, He says, "for those He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINED" (meaning He knew they would choose Him ahead of time, and so He chose them ahead of time to show His omniscience).
So now you are arguing that manipulation is love! Hah! You are confused my friend. True love = manipulation. I love it, this is cracking me up.

You are clearly adding to what the text says Brian. It doesn't say that God foreknew their actions, it says He foreknew them. That is an intimate picture, the way that Adam "knew" Eve.


He proves this also by Psalm 90:14-16:


14 “BECAUSE he has set his love upon Me, THEREFORE I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name...
15 ...I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”

That's a cause and effect. The cause is someone chose to love God of their own free-will. The effect is that God will deliver them. God calls, yes, but it is our choice whether to accept the call or not. God says the reason many do not hear the car is because they have hardened their hearts. Not He hardened their hearts. He says THEY hardned their hearts of their own free-will. When He says He raised Pharoah for His purpose, He says He hardened Pharoah's heart. Well, of course He did. He manipulated all kinds of things in Pharoah's life and He then reigned down all kinds of plagues on his nation and killed his first born! Obviously, those events all hardened Pharoah's heart. NEVER does it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. You must assume that all on your own because of your bad doctrinal beliefs.
Your cannot answer why some love God and why some don't. God must first work in someone's heart for them to love Him.

Once again you keep bringing up free-will. Of course it doesn't it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. Why? Because free will isn't in the Bible.

Why doesn't Pharaoh let the people go? Because God declared before it all began that He would harden Phraoh's heart. Cause and Effect!

Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.



Now, you say the word free-will is no where in the Bible, but that's not true. Not only is the word there in the Law because of the "free-will offering", but it is also displayed ALL throughout scripture. NEVER ONCE does God force anyone to do anything in scripture. Instead, God persuades everyone of what He wants them to do. Jonah is the perfect example of this. If God could control Jonah's free-will, God would've forced Jonah to go to Ninevah. And yet God did not. Instead, God persuaded Jonah by putting him in the belly of a whale till Jonah gave in and agreed to do what God wanted. I don't know what world you live in, but in the real world, that's called persuasion, not taking over someone's free-will.
You don't understand do you. Why does God show up so strong in Jonah's situation and not everyone else in the world? God's ways of making sure His will is done is not always the same. It is not always "by force" as you try to portray it. How come there is no situation in the Bible where God wanted to do something and yet fails? Because His perfect will is always done.

You cannot find a single place in the entire Bible where God takes over someone's free-will, making them do something against it. And yet you constantly find God asking and persuading people to do His will. Obviously, I have a MUCH stronger case in scripture than you could ever begin to have with your beliefs.
You are the one who started all this Brian, with all your pm's and your callout post. I have proven you wrong time and again with Scripture, and yet you continue to bring up made up scenarios and misusing Scripture. Very sad.


You claimed I never back-up my beliefs with scripture, and yet I gave you tons of scripture as we discussed this. You, my friend, are a liar. You've lied quite a few times in your above replies, which I have exposed. Be a man! Answer the scenario! Who cares if you think it's flawed?? Just answer it!

I answered your questions. Now answer mine!
I'm a liar? Becuase the majority of your argumentation is based upon emotional scenarios and on terms never mentioned in the Bible in the context of salvation? Please. Your use of Scripture is very surface level at the least... getting free will out of Genesis 1. Show me any Christian in history that has used Genesis 1 to defend the notion of free will.

Your most cherished doctrine of "free will" is not taught in the entire Bible, very dangerous if you ask me.


You didn't answer my question Brian. Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?


Oh, and to make sure there's no confusion, God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will.
More philosophy. Where in the Scriptures does is say that "God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will". It doesn't! Yet that is your major argument. Incredible.


There's nothing unmerciful about that, because we can choose where we go: heaven or hell. It is OUR choice.
Someone that God knows will not choose Him cannot make the choice for heaven Brian, and yet God still creates them.


He puts out the call, but WE choose. He says MANY are called, but FEW are chosen, meaning that He calls everyone, but only some choose Him and so He only chooses those.
Where does it say those that choose God, God then in turn chooses them? It doesn't. It says the opposite, that God chooses us before the foundation of the world.


What kind of idiot would God be if He called tons of people, but only chose to save some that He called?? Your belief system makes the Bible contradict itself specifically in that verse.
It contradicts your wild interpretation of the verse, that's for sure.

And it contradicts the free-will constantly displayed all over the Bible. Our blood is on our own hands due to free-will. God had sacrificed everything, done all the work, and now all we do is choose to love Him or not. It's THAT simple, and that's OUR free-will to do. Otherwise, there is absolutely no meaning to life. If God were going to choose for us, He woud've just created us and then sent a bunch to hell and kept a bunch in heaven. No meaning to life whatsoever except for God's sick entertainment.
Once again,
Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?
 
#29 · (Edited)
Ok Brian, adjusting for your qualification.

You're in a God-like position, and Satan comes to you for permission to inflict punishment, death, and suffering on 4 out of 10 family members. Please name who Satan can hurt and why.

(see how dumb that is)

I have no further desire to go down your rabbit trails of what-if scenarios and Scripture twistings. When you want to have a grown up conversation, let me know.
 
#32 ·
Ok Brian, adjusting for your qualification.

You're in a God-like position, and Satan comes to you for permission to inflict punishment, death, and suffering on 4 out of 10 family members. Please name who Satan can hurt and why.

(see how dumb that is)
So now you're calling God stupid?? Because the scenario you just laid out is almost exactly what happened in Job!

I can answer your scenario, but your scenario has no purpose. WHY am I picking 4 of 10 family members to be punished? Is this about salvation? I'd take the four family members that do not believe in God, but I cannot do that if I believe what you believe. I have to just pick randomly, because their choices don't matter. Therefore, I would take all of their names, throw them in a hat, and then draw names one at a time. That's only if I absolutely MUST pick four of them to go to hell, assuming that's what you are asking me to do.

Now, if this follows suit with my scenario, I have to show how that's merciful, compassionate and loving. Sorry, no way to show that. A God that picks people to go to hell against their will is a tyrannical sycophant, a murdering psychopath that likes to play twisted games. That's not God, though... that's Satan. Have fun with your "god".

However, IF I had a choice in the matter (which God does, by the way), I would place the responsibility upon each of those 10 people to choose me. I would give them free-will and tell all of them, "Hey, I came and died for your sins so that all you have to do is choose Me. What do you choose?" And if they choose me, fine. If they don't, fine. The point is that that is the only fair way to do it. However, in your belief, that is not an option. You believe God, and God alone, chooses. And thus, their blood is on God's hands, not their own hands. That just doesn't make any sense unless God is a sociopath whom enjoys killing people for sport.

I have no further desire to go down your rabbit trails of what-if scenarios and Scripture twistings. When you want to have a grown up conversation, let me know.
Oh!! So you just bailed on the scenario, right?? So you admit you're not man enough to answer the scenario?? I answered all your scenarios and I laid out all the scriptures necessary, proved my points and did everything asked of me, and yet you are too cowardly to answer one simple scenario??

Then you, my friend, are wrong. That's all there is to it. Otherwise, you'd have no problem answering the scenario. The problem is, you will have to show that your "god" is basically a sociopath if your god randomly picks most of the people in the world to go to hell. Nice "god" ya' got there, pal. You can have him. I'll stick with Jesus.
 
#35 ·
Philly, have you noticed how no one in this thread is on your side, and no one is agreeing with you? If your case were so air-tight, as you believe it is, don't you think they'd be siding with you and defending your beliefs? And yet they're not... Hmmmmm.... wonder why that is? I guess they're smart enough to figure out Calvanism is absurd. You should jump on the bandwagon. Otherwise, you'll keep getting pwned by people like me.

Oh, ummm... wanna' have some guts now and answer my scenario?
 
#37 ·
Despite your erroneous assumption, truth is not based upon how many groupies you can rally on your side. The day you stop twisting Scriptures according to your own preconception is the day you "own" me. Hah! I used to foolishly believe the same things you are spewing to me now, so I know how it is to be confused and wrong.

When you're ready to step toe-to-toe with the Scriptures, you will abandon your scenarios and free will fantasies.
 
#36 ·
Brian, you bring your preconception of free will onto every text of the Bible, even if the text says the complete opposite, and even if free will isn't even in the Scriptures... as I have shown.

For every clear text I've given you, you impose your preconception of free will on to them. Even though the Scriptures don't say it. As you can see, it is impossible to get anywhere in that situation.

I could say the Scriptures teach that Mary had other children, but if a Catholic had the preconception that Mary was a perpetual virgin (not in the Bible just like free will), then the Catholics will impose their preconception on those Scripture passages to make them say the opposite of what they actually say.

Again, arguing with you from the Scriptures is on par with arguing with a Jehovas Witness or a Morman. There preconception is that the Watchtower Society or Joseph Smith holds the truth, and that is imposed upon any Scripture I would try to bring up to the contrary.

You have argued that manipulation is ok for a true love relationship. Although I'm still single, would it be loving and compassionate for me to manipulate a future woman into loving me back? Surely you see how absurd that is.

You have wrongly accused me of saying God "forces" people to do stuff in some sort of violent way. I've never said that. All I'm saying is that when God does want something to happen, It will happen. If God wants to save someone, he'll save them.

Grace is irresistible. There is no account in the Scriptures of God wanting to save someone, yet failing. Or wanting to do something, yet failing.

God will not be frustrated because He couldn't get something He wanted. That would be a rather weak god.
 
#38 ·
You have argued that manipulation is ok for a true love relationship. Although I'm still single, would it be loving and compassionate for me to manipulate a future woman into loving me back? Surely you see how absurd that is.
Stop twisting what I say by changing words. I said manipulation and persuasion are the same thing, but that one has a bad implication to it. I said God persuades people to be saved, but that He manipulates the spiritual realm to cause things to happen in the physical realm. There's nothing wrong with that no matter how you try to twist it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with persuading someone. And yes, you are free to persuade a girl to love you. That's what most people do. But she has to choose of her own free-will to love you in return. And with your obvious disposition of aburd dryness, stubbornnes and pride, I wish you luck. lol Women don't care for any of those traits, which could be why you're still single. Who knows?

You have wrongly accused me of saying God "forces" people to do stuff in some sort of violent way. I've never said that. All I'm saying is that when God does want something to happen, It will happen. If God wants to save someone, he'll save them.
There you go twisting what I said again, as you always attempt to do, making it as if I'm some evil manipulator. lol I never accused you of saying God forces people to do stuff in a violent way. I accused you of claiming God forces people to do stuff against their will. He never does anything like that. He always asks and persuades until they agree. That's free-will at work. Any other assessment of that would be a stupid assessment. And there is nothing violent about how He persuades people that I can think of right off the top of my head.

This all goes to show how you lack reading comprehension. What I was conveying is that if God were to force people against their will to do things, that would make God evil and tyrannical, and I would not care to know that God. I never said He forces people in a violent way, though. You misunderstand because you're not reading closely or you're purposely twisting. Not sure which. There's the option that you're just plain stupid, but I don't buy that. You clearly show a capacity ot think and reason, at least to some degree. lol

[quore]
Grace is irresistible. There is no account in the Scriptures of God wanting to save someone, yet failing. Or wanting to do something, yet failing.
[/quote]
We've been over this earlier. Did you not read my response? As I said before, God knows the future. What and idiot He would be to try to save someone He knew was going to reject Him ahead of time, and why would He attempt something at which He knew He would fail ahead of time? He wouldn't! That's absurd! So of course there are no examples in the Bible where God tried to save someone and they didn't accept. He doesn't try to save someone that doesn't want to be saved and will never choose it.

HOWEVER, He did die for ALL of the sins of the world so that EVERYONE has the CHOICE to be saved if they so desire it. Now the ball is in their court. He will save absolutely anyone that chooses to be saved. But He's only going to attempt saving those He knows will accept His salvation by choice.

Salvation IS NOT irresistible. That's just a stupid comment you used for your argument. Everyone whom has rejected Jesus and His salvation knows full well what salvation is and they clearly resisted it. LOL So that's just an idiot argument that is easily disprovable. May as well drop that one before you look even more stupid for continuing to argue that point. Besides, look at Nicodemus. Jesus talked to him for a while, and yet Nicodemus did not accept salvation that we know of. He defended Jesus in the Sanhedrin, but never are we told that he converted. He have no clue if he did or didn't. The point is, if salvation were so irresistible, why didn't Nicodemus jump right on the bandwagon? Sorry, but your arguments are clearly not well thought out or reasonsed. Spend more time on them, please.

God will not be frustrated because He couldn't get something He wanted. That would be a rather weak god.
I never said God would be frustrated. But I guarantee God is not getting what He wants. God wants everyone to be saved. He says it plain as day in scripture:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I know, I know... you will say, "Oh, but that's addressed to Christians and it's only about them." BS. Why does God need time to save all the Christians if He knows they are going to be saved regardless because He can make it so instantly? Why does He need to be longsuffering? He can snap His fingure and change their will instantly, according to you. Your beliefs once again cause a verse to make no sense. Yes, I've heard you argue this verse absurdly before, so I saved you the time.

That verse is God telling His people that He is patient with the world, as a whole, because He wants as many of them to choose repentance as possible, and therefore, they need to sit tight and trust the Lord and His plan and stop being impatient, waiting for Him to come back, because it will be quite a while before that happens.

My point is that He wants everyone to accept Him and His salvation. But He can't have that, because of the free-will He gave them which was required for love and fairness. He had no choice but to let everyone choose for themselves, and that's why He will never get what He wants - everyone's love.

And if you say God does not desire that everyone be saved, then you just admitted that God is a sick individual who desires that most people suffer and die at His hand. Well, sorry, man... I don't want your god anywhere near me if that's who he is, because he's nothing like my God. You can have your god. Enjoy! I want nothing to do with that tyrannt you worship whom is very similar to Satan in many ways. Have fun telling people there's no home for them to be saved because God hates them. Sounds like a great way to convert people. Oh wait... why try to convert anyone? God's gonna' do that, right? You can just sit back and tell people that if they aren't saved, they're screwed so they may as well live it up in the meantime. I mean, you can't persuade anyone to accept Him, right? He has to force them to love Him, right? So you don't have to do a thing, right? Nice... real nice...

If you cannot see how incredibly unloving that is, then I know exactly why you are single. No woman wants a man (in your case a boy) that does not know what love really is or who to treat others with respect. I'm harsh on you for sheer sport. You are so easy to disprove and I just want to see you be a man for once and answer one simple scenario which you refuse to do. And yet, you won't be a man and answer! You sit back and preach and preach about how you're right and I'm wrong, but you can't answer a simple scenario because you know it would prove your god is evil and knows no love. Pride is an awful thing. Good luck finding a woman like that. Better yet, take a queue from your god and force a woman to love you by tying her up and keeping her in your basement. LOL :p

By the way, when god forces someone to love him, as you say, you call it love and mercy. But when a person tries to force someone to love them, it's not called love and mercy... it's called sick. Your god is sick if that's how he behaves. You should go try it and see if you'r not labelled as sick. See if you don't end up in jail for it. Good luck.
 
#39 ·
Commentary on God's "foreknowledge"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aBu2J25k62Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aBu2J25k62Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
 
#40 ·
That's one of the worst argument I've heard so far. There is SOOOOO much assumption and adding to what the scriptures mean in order to come up with those conclusions. Not one video has addressed Psalm 91:14-16, because Calvinists won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. They have to come up with some absurd, circumventing logic for it which makes no sense.

You post videos of people that have arguments just as absurd as yours. What's the point? I don't post videos for you. I speak for myself. I'm not a dupe that learns his doctrine from videos. I did my own reading and research and asked God to show me the truth while doing so. I don't go by what a set of doctrines says. I go by what God teaches me.

All you do is repeat exactly what Calvinists teach. I'm much more along the lines of Anibaptists, but would never say I learned anything from them nor that I am one. I just agree with most of their beliefs. Oh, and guess what... Calvinists of the past martyred the Anabaptists. Great church history there, man.

And the video you just showed further proves that your god is a selfish, unloving, self-satisfying, self-centered tyrannt that couldn't care less about what people want, but rather, only what He wants. Well sorry... I don't want anything to do with your sick, twisted god. You can have him. Have fun telling people they're destined for hell and there's nothing they can do about it. I'm sure that'll help.
 
#41 ·
Yes, they used the Scripture to see how a word is used and to see what it means. Scripture defines Scripture, a common biblical principle. They didn't go to scenarios, they didn't define what foreknow means based upon unbiblical presuppositions imposed upon the text. They looked at how the language is used in other contexts to define its meaning.

My theology is God-centered, yours is man-centered. In mine, God gets the glory. In your, man's will gets the glory.

It's as simple as that, and your emotion based reactions to what you think that means doesn't phase me in the least. Most people have a god that they've created in their own image, that is subservient to them. Most people hate the real God described in the Bible. So it doesn't surprise me that you don't want anything to do with that God either.
 
#53 ·
So, what you're telling me is that you don't know much about God's ways, right?

You see, any Christian knows that their job is to get closer to God in relationship and learn what His will is so that we know the mind and heart of God as much as possible. That's what relationship is all about. He says He cannot answer our prayers unless we pray in accordance with His will. Therefore, we MUST know His will in order to pray properly and have our prayers answered.

Therefore, if your lame excuse is that you cannot step into the shoes of God, that's just a cop-out. I have never see anyone fight so hard not to answer a scenario. That's how twisted your devotion to your denominational beliefs has made you. It's sick if you ask me.

By the way, it's the Calvanists whom were murdering/martyring the Anabaptists in the past. The Anabaptists were telling them it wasn't right to persecute or kill people with whom you disagreed with doctrinally. They were showing love, and it got them killed. Your religion has a great background there. Thanks to Anabaptists, though, you won't get killed if you stop believing what the Calvanists believe. lol
 
#49 ·
I don't mean to intrude but I found this conversation interesting. From what I gathered is that according to phillystang we are subject to predetermined salvation. So to have free will is to sin and in-turn betray god. Did god know he would be betrayed by Lucifer? I mean, he had to decide to betray god in order to become the devil. Suggesting he has free-will. If god knew he was no good why would he create him? god is perfect.

Also, it is unfair for someone that does not know about god to be damned for eternity. That is absurd. How is this loving and merciful? There is no judgment involved.

I am not saying there is no god, but that we have portrayed the wrong image of god in scriptures. God, didn't write them, man did. Based on this, philly has no solid backing in his argument where as others have used philosophy.

Bottom line is the bible is pretty vague and will always be controversial, all we can rely on in our lives is our logic, instinct, and what we perceive and live accordingly.
 
#50 ·
I don't mean to intrude but I found this conversation interesting. From what I gathered is that according to phillystang we are subject to predetermined salvation.
Those that will believe upon Jesus are... The Bible is clear on this. They are referred to as the elect often in Scriptures.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

So to have free will is to sin and in-turn betray god.
I don't follow your reasoning here. Having free will is not a sin in itself. That was not the point of any of the discussions here. My argument is that man's will is not autonomous, in other words, man's will does not supercede God's will.

Did god know he would be betrayed by Lucifer? I mean, he had to decide to betray god in order to become the devil. Suggesting he has free-will.
Yes God knew He would be betrayed. Apart from God's grace creatures tend to disobey Him, though we know little about the nature of Angel's possibility of sinning prior to the rebellion. We know however, that there are elect angels as described in 1 Timothy 5:21 that were no doubt kept from following Satan in the rebellion.

If god knew he was no good why would he create him? god is perfect.
Yes God is perfect, but He makes all things for His own purposes. You have no basis to demand that in order for God to be perfect He must make perfect creatures.

Also, it is unfair for someone that does not know about god to be damned for eternity. That is absurd. How is this loving and merciful? There is no judgment involved.
The judgment is against their sin. Even remote jungle tribes have an internal sense of right and wrong, and they know when they have done wrong.

I am not saying there is no god, but that we have portrayed the wrong image of god in scriptures. God, didn't write them, man did. Based on this, philly has no solid backing in his argument where as others have used philosophy.
The question of the inerrancy of Scriptures is another topic of which I would heartily disagree with you. Of course if you deny the Scriptures as being the Word of God you would by default see my arguments from them to be without backing.

Bottom line is the bible is pretty vague and will always be controversial, all we can rely on in our lives is our logic, instinct, and what we perceive and live accordingly.
I'm confused how you can give a "bottom line" that the Bible is not to be trusted, yet your prescription of what we can trust in is to be taken as some sort of universal truth.
 
#62 · (Edited)
Once again I knew Brian would not be able to stand toe to toe with the Scriptures.

If you look that up in the original Hebrew, it means sovereign rulership, which means not even God Himself can interfere here unless we ask Him too
Wrong.

Who did God ask permission from to flood the earth back in Noah's time?

Your use of this passage as a proof for man's free will is careless and your explanation of it is downright silly.

God does not have to ask man permission for anything. When I said that your view was man-centered... this is what I'm talking about. When the creator has to ask permission from the creation. Lol.

Your tradition has clearly blinded you my friend.

First of all, you cannot find one single place where God possesses someone in the Bible to make them do something. Instead, you find God persuading people to do His will, and they eventually accept His proposal and do it.
When did I ever argue that God possesses people? You are surely creating straw-men here.

If God were in control of free-will in regard to salvation, God would simply present Himself to each person or flat-out make them choose Him whenever He so desires. And yet, that's not what happened.
God does not have to be violent in how He does His will. Example: MAKE THEM CHOOSE.

You are implying something in my belief that is not true and something I never argued for.

God uses means to get to His ends. He uses the preaching of the Word to bring about faith in men and women.

It is the Lord that opens hearts when the message is preached. Lydia didn't open her own heart, God did.

Acts 16:14
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

If it were on your side, you'd have lots more people in here defending you.
Where is the standard that says majority = truth?

There are certainly more Roman Catholics than Calvary Chapel Christians (Chuck Smith). Does that mean that Roman Catholocism is more true than the Calvary Chapel folks?

Cause and effect: beCAUSE people received Him and believed in His name, He GAVE them the right to become children of God.
It is a cause and effect, but I believe you have them backwards. The sentence structure shows the effect first, then the explanation of the effect.

Receiving Christ is a human decision in your "free will" view.

Later it says they were born not of human decision.

Therefore the receiving of Christ is because God first caused them to be born of Himself, and not of human decision.

Elsewhere Jesus speaks of the mystery of being born again in the same way that the wind blows.

You do not control the wind. You do not control your first birth. Your free will does not control the new birth in Christ.
 
#63 ·
Once again I knew Brian would not be able to stand toe to toe with the Scriptures.


Wrong.

Who did God ask permission from to flood the earth back in Noah's time?
All it takes is for one person to pray God's will into existence and God can do it. Any of God's people can pray for it, and it would appear Methusela's father was okay with this revelation and probably prayed for God's will. Why? Because Methusela's name, in Hebrew, means "When he dies, it comes." The day Methusela died is the day the fountains of the deep broke forth starting the flood. We know he didn't die as a result of the flood, because it took nearly seven days after the flood waters started for the water to reach the ark. It's not that God needs to ask permission. It's that God cannot interfere unless we first ASK for His help. He doesn't ask permission for anything. He tells His people what is best, and if they trust Him, they know He's right and they will pray His will and He will grant it.

Explain to me this: why does God say in scripture for us to pray at all? If He can do as He pleases here, what is the purpose of prayer? You have just completely caused prayer to be pointless. Good job. And for future reference, prayer is so that God's will can be brought into the earth.

Your tradition has clearly blinded you my friend.
You really don't read what I type, do you? Or is your reading comprehension really that bad? I have no tradition. I didn't learn what I know through a church or anything like that. What I know is from my own study of the Bible, asking God to show me truth. I am not a member of any denomination nor do I ascribe solely to any denomination's believes exclusively. Therefore, I am quite the opposite of a traditional person.

When did I ever argue that God possesses people? You are surely creating straw-men here.
This is not straw-man argument here. If mankind has no free-will, then God could possess a person if He needs them to do something, or He could force their will, making them do it completely against their choice. And by that, I don't mean someone reluctantly agreeing to do something like Jonah did. I'm talking about God literally making someone do somethin completely against their free-will. That's either forceful oppression or complete possession. If there is no free-will whatsoever, then you should be able to show me that in the Bible. I mean, think about it. If God REALLY wanted His will to be done, then He would just make people do things they refuse to do, right? Why don't we see Him doing that in scripture? Show me just one place in the Bible where God MAKES someone do something which they never agreed to do in any way, shape or form. Can you? If you can't, then you need to show SOME sort of example in the Bible where someone's free-will has been completely taken away from them. Right now, I've seen absolutely no scripture as examples so far.

God does not have to be violent in how He does His will. Example: MAKE THEM CHOOSE.
Violent? What are you going on about now? There's nothing violent about that. Making someone do something doesn't imply violence. Can't you come up with a better argument than that?

You are implying something in my belief that is not true and something I never argued for.

God uses means to get to His ends. He uses the preaching of the Word to bring about faith in men and women.
Hmmmm... okay, so God uses preaching the Word to BRING ABOUT faith in men and women, right? Well, gee... wouldn't that be persuasion? How is that forcing someone to believe and accept Him regardless of their will? Thanks for arguing for my beliefs. I appreciate it. :) But I don't need the help. I'm tearing you up just fine on my own.

It is the Lord that opens hearts when the message is preached. Lydia didn't open her own heart, God did.

Acts 16:14
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
Oh, back on this again, eh? You've already shot yourself in the foot on this one many times, posting scripture that proves my point. Here, I'll post one you have posted to me before.

Matthew 13:14-16 (NKJV)
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

Last time you used this verse, in all your genius wonder, you used the few verses before it to say God MADE them not see or hear the truth, hardened their hearts and that it was not their free-will, and I pointed out that it clearly says here that they shut their own eyes, and that He says IF they would see with their eyes and hear with their ears, they would undersatnd with their hearts and turn so that He would save them. This completely centers around THEIR choice to open their hearts, not God's choice to open their hearts.

A person has to WANT to know God before He will "open their heart" to understand Him and know Him. Lydia wanted to know the Lord, and so He granted knowledge of Him to her by opening her heart to see Him. He could not have done this with someone whom had closed their heart off to God, just as the verse I posted above states. Again, I've displayed Jesus showing free-will in regard to salvation, and you will completely disregard it and twist it in some way... Why don't you take your own advice and actually accept what the words say instead of reading into it something that's not there and makes the passage contradict itself?

Where is the standard that says majority = truth?
You tell me! You're the one that once argued that most Protestant religions believe that there is no free-will regarding salvation, and so they agree with you. So now you're saying that the majority doesn't equal truth? Well, that means you just argued against one of your old arguments, smartguy. Nice going. Great way to contradict yourself. I never said the majority must know the truth. I said the majority is smart enough to figure it out and actually just wants to know the the truth instead of simply "be right". I didn't say the majority's belief in it meant it was true. Again, learn reading comprehension.

There are certainly more Roman Catholics than Calvary Chapel Christians (Chuck Smith). Does that mean that Roman Catholocism is more true than the Calvary Chapel folks?
Again, I was making fun of one of YOUR arguments, and you completely misunderstood the point of what I was saying, like you frequently do. This, again, does not speak well to your reading comprehension. You'd waste a lot less time respond if you'd actually learn to understand what's actually being stated.

It is a cause and effect, but I believe you have them backwards. The sentence structure shows the effect first, then the explanation of the effect.
Oh, nice job there, not posting all of my quote in order to shield the fact that you're not responding to what I actually said. Very nice. Let me repost it for you.

John 1:12-13
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Again, you completely missed the point of the passage. It's not trying to tell us that people are not born of God out of their own free-will. It's simply explaining that this is a birth which is different from natural birth, because it is a spiritual birth that God has a part in.

ASK ANYONE HERE! They'll all tell you exactly what I just said! Maybe then you'll believe me when I say your reading comprehension is horrific!

Receiving Christ is a human decision in your "free will" view.

Later it says they were born not of human decision.

Therefore the receiving of Christ is because God first caused them to be born of Himself, and not of human decision.
You completely butchered that passage. I can cut and paste parts of passages like you just did all day long and it doesn't mean it's in context! I've already proven you wrong on this. Do yourself a favor and move on, because now you're just making yourself look more ridiculous.

Elsewhere Jesus speaks of the mystery of being born again in the same way that the wind blows.

You do not control the wind. You do not control your first birth. Your free will does not control the new birth in Christ.
Gee, you didn't post the verse. I wonder why... Is it maybe because in context, the verse doesn't mean what you are claiming it means?

John 3:4,7-9 (New American Standard Bible)

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jesus is did not say that the Spirit of God saves people like the wind flows freely, unpredictably. He said that "EVERYONE" who is born of the spirit is like the wind. The wind is free, unchained, and goes where it pleases, just as believers are free from sin and do as they please without spiritual the fear of losing their salvation. Jesus, like Paul, encouraged them to not sin with this freedom from sin they get from His salvation so that they would not get enslaved to sin again.

So, let's recap - the sentence says the PEOPLE that are born again of the Spirit are like the wind, not the Spirit and His giving of salvation. Therefore, it is explainig the freedom of the people from sin, not the lack of free-will in salvation you so strongly promote.

Thank you for once again proving that your reading comprehension is horrendous. You're making my point for me quite well and very quickly discrediting yourself. I appreciate it, but I really don't need the help. :)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top