I have been PMing Phillystang for quite some time now. We have gone back and forth about doctrine, and more specifically, free-will. Phillystang refuses to answer my scenario no matter how many times I ask him to answer it. Therefore, I have told him I will call him out right here in the forums, and if he does not answer the scenario, he is admitting he is wrong.
Your scenario is flawed from the beginning. It is on par with asking someone if they are still beating their wife.
Your scenario clearly does not match the real situation because you either paint man as an innocent creature (though he is described as a slave to sin in the Bible) and you paint God as just being all about love. Though He is about love, God is also about holiness and wrath and judgment. You have taken one attribute of God and overshadowed all the other attribute mentioned in the Bible.
I don't think you have an accurate view of the state of man or of the holiness of God, based upon your scenarios.
Philly believes that God chooses if we're saved or not, and we have no free-will in the matter. I gave the verse in Psalms 41:14-16 which says, "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him...and I will show him My salvation." Which means God's choosing us is based upon whether we choose Him of our own free-will. He knows we will choose Him ahead of time, and therefore chooses us ahead of time.
Sorry Brian, there is much more to it than that. Why does one man love God and one man doesn't? God must first sovereignly change the person's heart to love Him.
1 John 4:19
"We love because he first loved us."
Despite your free will tradition, there are 2 crystal clear passages from scriptures that say specifically that it is not because of our "wills" that we are saved.
Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
By whose doing are we in Christ?
1 Cor. 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption
Are some appointed for eternal life?
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
All that the Father gives, come.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
What about those that don't come? They weren't given.
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jesus says He dies for the sheep
John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
He says there are some that aren't sheep.
John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
Belief is something given by God
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him
Repentance is granted by God
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
The challenge I've given Philly is to show that his view of God makes God a cruel, unloving God. Love is a choice, and if we have not the free-will to choose to love God, it is impossible for us to do so. Love cannot be forced, and yet Philly believed God forces us to love Him by choosing us against our free-will. Without choice, we do not have the capability to love. This is contradictory to God being "love" as He says He is. Which brings me to the challenge.
Here Brian argues from philosophy and not from the Bible. The reason is that Brain cannot find any biblical support for this understanding of free will and the nature of love. Why is this? Because the Bible makes no mention of free will when it comes to salvation.
Here's the scenario I asked him to write:
Since humans were created by God, it means that all humans are God's children, technically. Sure, figuratively, we are called children of the devil if we have yet to choose God, but that is figurative, not literal. We are all God's children. Therefore, here is the scenario.
Write this scenario as if you were given God's duty of choosing who goes to hell and who goes to heaven (which is what you believe God does). Here are the guidelines for the scenario:
You are in a God-like position. List out the 10 most important family members and friends you have. Calvinists such as you (Philly) believe the majority of the world is going to hell.
Jesus says few will find the road that leads to life, and many the road to destruction. You can either keep your philosophical view, or go with what Jesus said. I'll stick with Jesus.
Matthew 7:13
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Therefore, pick 70% of the 10 people to go to hell, and 30% to go to heaven. The ones who go to hell will suffere for eternity in horrible pain and they have no choice in the matter. It is solely your choice if they go to hell or not when they die. List the 7 that go to hell and the 3 that go to heaven. After you do this, explain how your doing this shows that you are a loving, compassionate God.
Why does a loving compassionate God create people that He knows will go to hell? Wouldn't they be better off having not been created in the first place?
There is no true option of salvation when from eternity past God knew that they would never accept Him. They cannot suddenly do something that God already knew they would never do.
Your scenario is flawed from the beginning because it is foolish for anyone to put themselves in God's place and be His judge based upon how you think His attributes should be displayed.
Despite your clever scenario meant to trap me, Peter says that some men are appointed to doom.
1 Peter 2:7-9
7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
If you do not do this scenario, I will assume you realized you are wrong about God but do not want to expose that here in the forum. If you answer, well... this will get real interesting. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for you and your doctrines.
lol... only in your scenario'd make-believe world... hah!
Your flawed scenarios do not match the real situation because you either paint man as an innocent creature (though he is described as a slave to sin in the Bible) and you paint God as just being all about love. Though He is about love, God is also about holiness and wrath and judgment.
My scenario for Brian:
Let's say you have a toddler playing near a crowded street. He is there because you placed him near there (creation). As he starts to go into the street, instead of rescuing Him (God interfering, grace) out of love, you decide to let him choose for himself rather to come to you or to continue towards the dangerous traffic (free will). Since toddlers rarely obey (sin nature), he gets hit by oncoming traffic and dies.
Except in our case it is not being hit by a car, it is everlasting torment. Once again, in your view God loves choice more than He loves people.
Why do some people decide to get saved while others don't Brian?
Are they better than the others, or smarter?
Isn't this something that they can now boast in?
"I was smarter than those other heathens that didn't believe in Jesus, that's why I'm in heaven now."
Does God just see things and responds to them, or does He decree them?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
Isaiah 14:24
The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.
Isaiah 14:27
For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Isaiah 46:11
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
I think your view of man and God is skewed, namely that God is fair with everyone or that everyone is on a level playing field.
I know this is not true because God says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."
What this means is that it is up to God to have mercy and he doesn't have it upon everyone... it also doesn't depend on man... even though your view says it depends upon man.
Mercy cannot be mercy and grace cannot be grace if it is earned by something I do. Then it is merely my wages... something earned. Grace and mercy are truly grace and mercy when they are undeserved, unearned, and not as a result of something someone does.
Please let me know the logical order of these passages...
Appointment comes first... then belief
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Jesus says that some aren't sheep and that the reason for their unbelief is that they are not sheep... Being a sheep comes first, and then belief.
John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep
Jesus died for the sheep
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.