Neil Armstrong is pissed - DFWstangs Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 02:01 AM Thread Starter
Meeeeooowww
 
ALLAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: the MCO airport
Posts: 20,309
Neil Armstrong is pissed

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36476183...science-space/

msnbc.com and NBC News
updated 7:26 p.m. ET, Tues., April 13, 2010

The first man to walk on the moon blasted President Barack Obama’s decision to cancel NASA’s back-to-the-moon program on Tuesday, saying that the move is “devastating” to America’s space effort.

Apollo 11 commander Neil Armstrong’s open letter was also signed by Apollo 17 commander Eugene Cernan, the last man to walk on the moon; and Apollo 13 commander Jim Lovell, who is marking the 40th anniversary of his famous lunar non-landing this week.

The letter was released to NBC News just two days in advance of Obama’s trip to NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida for a space policy summit. Obama is expected to flesh out his vision for the space agency's future during his speech at the summit.

ALLAN is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 02:38 AM
not exclude
 
exlude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,838
Do we really need to be going back to the moon? Especially with our current financial situation?
exlude is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 07:55 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
I have a great amount of admiration for Neil Armstrong but I think he's wrong. Buzz Aldrin thinks he's wrong too. This is one of the few things that Obama has come close to getting right. The Constellation program wasn't going to get us to the Moon or anywhere else. The Ares I rocket was a financial disaster waiting to happen. IMO the President's plan puts us on the path to a sustainable space program that actually focuses on manned exploration. Something NASA hasn't done since Apollo 17.

The President's original plan was to take NASA out of the manned "Launching" business and put them back into the manned "exploration" business. To start this is to be done by having private companies provide access to Low Earth Orbit. One company, SpaceX is well on its way to having that capability. The other part of the plan was to start using NASA resources (like the Space Station) to start developing the technologies needed for deep space exploration. Forget the Moon, we're talking about technology for going to Mars, the Asteroids, and beyond.

The problem with President Obama's plan is that it provided little direction. There was also a bit of uncertainty. But the main problem is that it cuts jobs in states like Florida, Alabama, and Texas. To me, the question is whether NASA should be considered a jobs program or should it be a space exploration program. Almost all politicians think of it as a jobs program..


BUT a compromise is in the works..


The details are supposed to be announced tomorrow but this is what they are looking at..

1 - The Orion space craft, from the Constellation project, will not be canceled. It will be converted into a cargo ship / escape pod for the Space Station and use existing rockets to reach orbit. This is called Orion Lite. Doing this puts pressure on the commercial companies to perform to expectations because it gives NASA a back up plan if they fail.

2 - Save the current Space Shuttle infrastructure and convert it into a Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle (HLLV). The President had originally sought to develop an entirely new HLLV based on the latest technology. This would have reduced launching costs in the long run but I think Obama realized that he couldn't get this plan through Congress if he didn't save some shuttle based jobs. IMO it is a good compromise.

3 - Convert existing Space Station hardware (that is still on the ground) into a test bed for deep space exploration. Many believe that this will consist of taking the "Habitation Module" that was built but never launched and converting it into a craft that can be used for multiple deep space sorties. Basically it would stay docked at the space station when not in use and then hook up with a propulsion unit of some sort when heading out of Earth Orbit.. This is actually one of Buzz Aldrin's ideas..

4 - One other possibility is the addition of 3 or 4 or maybe more Space Shuttle missions at the rate of 1 or 2 per year. This would preserve NASA heavy lift and manned launch capability until the new HLLV is ready. But NASA would continue to use Russian Soyuz space craft for shift rotations at the Space Station (which we have been doing since the Columbia accident)..

5 - A clear destination would be announced. The word is that the first target would be near Earth Asteroids. Especially those Asteroids that pose a potential threat to hitting Earth in the future. The main destination would be Mars.

Now the REAL question is, will Congress fund it..

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 07:59 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude View Post
Do we really need to be going back to the moon? Especially with our current financial situation?
I don't think we "need" to specifically go back to the moon. But we do need a manned space exploration program. That type of program will spur new technology development.

Also, NASA isn't exactly expensive (in relative terms). At its height it was only 5% of the budget. But now it is less than 1%.

But in terms of need. We DO need to start looking at these Asteroids from a manned level. We're going to need to figure out how to move one of the bastards in the future and we had better get started. Otherwise, in the long run, the entire human race is going to be fucked..

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 08:11 AM
not exclude
 
exlude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
I don't think we "need" to specifically go back to the moon. But we do need a manned space exploration program. That type of program will spur new technology development.

Also, NASA isn't exactly expensive (in relative terms). At its height it was only 5% of the budget. But now it is less than 1%.

But in terms of need. We DO need to start looking at these Asteroids from a manned level. We're going to need to figure out how to move one of the bastards in the future and we had better get started. Otherwise, in the long run, the entire human race is going to be fucked..
That was kinda my point. Going to the moon seems like a waste of time and money to me. It's not really spurring grand new technologies like deeper exploration could provide. I just think we need to move on to bigger better goals if we are going to spend any money at all.
exlude is offline  
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 08:11 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lafayette, IN
Posts: 1,063
Waits for TinfoilHat to chime in with "we never went to the moon"...

Regarding Slo3gt:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS Junk View Post
Whining about someone disclosing their salary on a message forum usually leads to said whiner being a broke dick. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.
hedkutter18 is offline  
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 08:30 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,089
what gets me is we have built this massive space station, and spent billions of dollars on it, and now, the the shuttle program retired, if we want to send our astronauts up to it, we have to pay the Russians 51 million dollars per astronaut per trip.

cannonball996 is offline  
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 08:38 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
what gets me is we have built this massive space station, and spent billions of dollars on it, and now, the the shuttle program retired, if we want to send our astronauts up to it, we have to pay the Russians 51 million dollars per astronaut per trip.
Well, you can blame Congress and GW for that. If they had given NASA the promised funding needed for Constellation, then we wouldn't be in this situation. I know Obama likes to blame the past administration a lot but at least this time he would have some justification for it..

BTW, it cost about $1.2BILLION for NASA to send up 7 astronauts on the Shuttle. The Dragon capsule from Space X is expected to do the same for $20 to $30MILLION per flight.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 10:12 AM
Worship me
 
AL P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 34,345
Can we just privatize this shit already? I mean fuck!

Really, as soon as someone figures out how to make money off of going into space we will all be better off. NASA can stop spending ridiculous amounts of money, private industry can takeover, we'll probably get a nice stock market bubble out of it too. I'm ready.

"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." - Ed Howdershelt
AL P is offline  
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 11:13 AM
Token Troll
 
GhostTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sherman
Posts: 4,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P View Post
Can we just privatize this shit already? I mean fuck!

Really, as soon as someone figures out how to make money off of going into space we will all be better off. NASA can stop spending ridiculous amounts of money, private industry can takeover, we'll probably get a nice stock market bubble out of it too. I'm ready.
More X-Prize, please.

'05 Redfire Mustang

"Self-government won't work without self-discipline." - Paul Harvey
GhostTX is offline  
post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 11:36 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P View Post
Can we just privatize this shit already? I mean fuck!

Really, as soon as someone figures out how to make money off of going into space we will all be better off. NASA can stop spending ridiculous amounts of money, private industry can takeover, we'll probably get a nice stock market bubble out of it too. I'm ready.
Isn't that kinda what Obama is doing? Or at least putting us in a position to do that in the future. That said, even I don't think there is currently a business case for space exploration..

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 11:38 AM
T5-T56-Tremec specialist
 
thesource's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Heading back to Plentywood
Posts: 8,389
I agree, more of it needs to be privatized. Its pretty clear that a private company can do the same task for a lot less money. I wouldn't give the Russian jack shit for a ride to space. Keep the money here in the U.S. and spend it with companies here to spur growth.
thesource is offline  
post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 12:03 PM
Worship me
 
AL P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 34,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
Isn't that kinda what Obama is doing? Or at least putting us in a position to do that in the future. That said, even I don't think there is currently a business case for space exploration..
No, there isn't any money to be made at all. I just wish someone would figure out a way. The only thing I can think of that is obvious is mining asteroids.

"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." - Ed Howdershelt
AL P is offline  
post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 12:14 PM
makin' bacon
 
Stevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Longview,TX
Posts: 5,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
BTW, it cost about $1.2BILLION for NASA to send up 7 astronauts on the Shuttle. The Dragon capsule from Space X is expected to do the same for $20 to $30MILLION per flight.
How much weight can that capsule take into orbit as compared to the shuttle?

Stevo

Animal whisperings

Intoxicate the night

Hypnotize the desperate

Slow motion light

Wash away into the rain

Blood, milk and sky


Stevo is offline  
post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 12:16 PM
makin' bacon
 
Stevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Longview,TX
Posts: 5,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLAN View Post

Apollo 11 commander Neil Armstrong’s open letter was also signed by Apollo 17 commander Eugene Cernan, the last man to walk on the moon; and Apollo 13 commander Jim Lovell, who is marking the 40th anniversary of his famous lunar non-landing this week.
Like Obama gives a shit about what smart old white people say him.

Stevo

Animal whisperings

Intoxicate the night

Hypnotize the desperate

Slow motion light

Wash away into the rain

Blood, milk and sky


Stevo is offline  
post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 02:01 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
How much weight can that capsule take into orbit as compared to the shuttle?

Stevo
Of course not nearly as much. That's why they want to build the HLLV. It will have more capacity than even the Shuttle. Also, the Shuttle isn't exactly known for its glowing safety record, unless you count the glow of one blown up shuttle and another streaking over Texas in pieces. That's the main reason they are looking to retire it to begin with..

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 04:25 PM
Musician for the deaf
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Euless, TX
Posts: 9,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude View Post
That was kinda my point. Going to the moon seems like a waste of time and money to me. It's not really spurring grand new technologies like deeper exploration could provide. I just think we need to move on to bigger better goals if we are going to spend any money at all.
I think the underlying issue is that it takes funding away from political hacks within the agency who are set on using it to back greenhouse gas studies in order to recommend changes to tax law on the air we breathe.
Casper is offline  
post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 04:50 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Well the official plan is out.. Not quite what I had heard. Still a decent plan but not nearly as good as it could be..

You can read it here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ostp

Here are the Cliffs notes -

-NASA's budget increases by $6BILLION over the next 5 years.
-"Begins major work" on a new HLLV rocket sooner than Obama had originally planned but says that there won't be a commitment to an HLLV until 2015.
- Converts the Orion spacecraft into a Crew Rescue Vehicle and cargo transport for the Space Station.
- A much more solid exploration plan. 1st stop is near Earth asteroids. 2nd stop are the moons of Mars (very easy to land there). 3rd stop is Mars. But no time table is set..
- more robotic probes, other technology programs.. yadda yadda yadda..

So the Orion part was exactly like I heard. They will use Atlas and Delta rockets to launch it to the space station with cargo. Then it can stay on station for several months and act as a rescue craft. That does a couple of things. It gives the commercial sector some competition because this Orion capsule can be converted for manned spaceflight. It keeps us from having to put all our eggs in one basket. It also lets Lockheed Martin have a vehicle that they can use to compete with SpaceX.

The plans for an HLLV are kinda fucked. Putting it off until 2015 means we have no HLLV after the Shuttle retires this year. It appears that they want to build an all new rocket from the ground up. There are some real benefits to this but the development cost of building a Space Shuttle derived HLLV would definitely be lower. Basically it seems that Obama's people are pushing the HLLV decision off to another administration.

There is no mention of extending the Space Shuttle program and shortening the manned space access gap. SpaceX says they can get a manned rocket ready by 2012 but everyone things 2014 or 2015 is more realistic because that will give SpaceX several more years of launch experience with the Falcon9 and Dragon. I could see them speeding things up if SpaceX teams up with another company like Orbital to develop the escape rocket system. Orbital was already building one for the Orion capsule and has said they believe it could be used for the Dragon Capsule.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 06:38 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,089
there may not be any known commodities in space, at least not ones that are feasible. but it is un regulated, and in a world of growing government regulations eventually people are going to want to escape from the regulations and that might mean going to outer space. imagine space as a tax haven.

cannonball996 is offline  
post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 11:20 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Watauga Tx
Posts: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
what gets me is we have built this massive space station, and spent billions of dollars on it, and now, the the shuttle program retired, if we want to send our astronauts up to it, we have to pay the Russians 51 million dollars per astronaut per trip.
Applies to our whole country aswell. We used to be able to pay our own bills, then we outsourced our own jobs and have to borrow billions from china just to run the country.

Id say this is about right for our governments way of thinking!

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
Slammy is offline  
post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 11:51 PM
UNFUCKWITHABLE
 
Strychnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Putting the sensual in nonconsensual since 1984
Posts: 12,482
Neil deGrasse Tyson's take on it.




For anyone unfamilar w/ Tyson:
Quote:
Neil deGrasse Tyson (born October 5, 1958) is an American astrophysicist and, since 1996, the Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History in Manhattan. Since 2006, he has hosted PBS's educational television show NOVA scienceNOW.

Tyson has written a number of popular books on astronomy. In 1995, he began to write the "Universe" column for Natural History magazine. In a column for the magazine he authored in 2002, Tyson coined the term "Manhattanhenge" to describe the two days annually on which the evening sun aligns with the cross streets of the street grid in Manhattan, making the sunset visible along unobstructed side streets.

In 2004, he hosted the four-part "Origins" miniseries of PBS's Nova,[8] and co-authored with Donald Goldsmith the companion volume for this series, Origins: Fourteen Billion Years Of Cosmic Evolution.[9] He again collaborated with Dr. Goldsmith as the narrator on the documentary 400 Years of the Telescope which premiered on PBS in April 2009.

In 2001, President George W. Bush appointed Tyson to serve on the Commission on the Future of the United States Aerospace Industry and in 2004 to serve on the President's Commission on Implementation of United States Space Exploration Policy, the latter better known as the "Moon, Mars and Beyond" commission. He was soon afterward awarded the NASA Distinguished Public Service Medal, the highest civilian honor bestowed by NASA.[10]

As director of the Hayden Planetarium, Tyson bucked traditional thinking to keep Pluto from being referred to as the ninth planet in exhibits at the center. Tyson has explained that he wanted to look at commonalities between objects, grouping the terrestrial planets together, the gas giants together, and Pluto with like objects and to get away from simply counting the planets. He has stated on The Colbert Report, The Daily Show and BBC Horizon that this decision has resulted in large amounts of hate mail, much of it from children.[11] In 2006, the I.A.U. confirmed this assessment by changing Pluto to the "dwarf planet" classification. Daniel Simone wrote of the interview with Tyson describing his frustration. "For a while, we were not very popular here at the Hayden Planetarium."

Tyson has been Vice-President, President, and Chairman of board of the Planetary Society. He is the new host of the PBS program NOVA scienceNOW.[12]

He attended and was a speaker at the Beyond Belief symposium on November 2006. In 2007, Tyson, who is known for his colorful character, cheerful demeanor, and awe of the vastness of the universe itself, was chosen to be a regular on The History Channel's popular new series The Universe.

In 2009, he started hosting with comedienne Lynne Koplitz a one-hour radio show called Star Talk. The show is syndicated Sunday afternoons on KTLK AM in Los Angeles and WHFS in Washington DC.


.

Audentes Fortuna Juvat
Strychnine is offline  
post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 12:44 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Keep in mind that Neil deGrasse Tyson made these comments before the revised plan was announced today.

Today he tweeted this after President Obama's speach. Sounds like he is generally supportive of it.
Quote:
Obama seems to get the message. New NASA plan is generally sensible & even doable. Mars, asteroids, tech development, etc.
I totally dig Tyson. He is a not only a brilliant man but someone that is able to communicate science in a way that doesn't bore people. He also does so without sounding like Bill Nye, who IMO dumbs things down a little.

I'm pretty much in support of the new plan because the old plan wasn't being implemented as originally envisioned. It was also VERY questionable as to whether or not it would actually get us back to the moon, let alone getting beyond LEO..

My only real problem with it is that the development of an HLLV is pretty open ended. The original plan was the even more open ended because there was no funding for it at all. At least this time there appears to be funding (assuming Congress goes along with it).

The other thing I would have liked to see is the extension of the Space Shuttle Program for another year or two or three. Just one or two flights a day. But President Obama correctly pointed out that the plans to cancel STS were made SIX years ago. President Bush followed the suggestions of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board (CAIB) and decided to retire those birds at the end of 2010. There are good arguments to be made for extending but the arguments for ending the program are just as good if not better.

So this is how it looks:

After this year, we lose our ability to fly to ISS from American soil. EVERYONE is hitchhiking on Soyuz.

SpaceX starts flying the Falcon9 rocket and Dragon capsule as early as next month. But that is an unmanned cargo version. They designed it with the intent to upgrade it to a manned version in the future but they have to build an escape rocket and add all sorts of stuff to the rocket to get it "manned rated". NASA will be the regulatory body that issues the rules on what a "manned rated" space craft and rocket is. SpaceX says that manned flights COULD be accomplished by 2012 but 2015 is more likely at current funding levels. On the positive side, that gives them five years of flight experience to work out the kinks..

The Orion capsule (originally part of the canceled Constellation program) will not be canceled. It will become a rescue ship as I mentioned before. That gives us a fall back plan if SpaceX fails and give Lockheed something to work with if they decide to start providing manned spaceflight services (and they very well might)...

All that said, things are gonna be very quiet at Cape Canaveral after just three more shuttle flights.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 12:48 AM
UNFUCKWITHABLE
 
Strychnine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Putting the sensual in nonconsensual since 1984
Posts: 12,482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
Keep in mind that Neil deGrasse Tyson made these comments before the revised plan was announced today.

Today he tweeted this after President Obama's speach. Sounds like he is generally supportive of it.
Agreed.
Privatizing low earth orbit will be great... as long as NASA continues to set further goals and not become stagnant.

Quote:
I totally dig Tyson. He is a not only a brilliant man but someone that is able to communicate science in a way that doesn't bore people. He also does so without sounding like Bill Nye, who IMO dumbs things down a little.
If you haven't, go get a copy of Death By Black Hole


.

Audentes Fortuna Juvat
Strychnine is offline  
post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-2010, 01:19 AM
Lifer
 
Mustangman_2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: D/FW
Posts: 8,912
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedkutter18 View Post
Waits for TinfoilHat to chime in with "we never went to the moon"...
Don't tell Buzz Aldrin that we didn't go to the moon. He'll knock your ass out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
Mustangman_2000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome