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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-10-2010, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Polish leader, 95 others dead in Russia jet crash

In Russia, huh?
Didn't this guy hate the Russians with a passion, and fight for the NATO missile defense system to protect them from Russia?

Sounds shady as heck.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_russia_plane_crash

MOSCOW – Polish President Lech Kaczynski and some of the country's highest military and civilian leaders died on Saturday when the presidential plane crashed as it came in for a landing in thick fog in western Russia, killing 96, officials said.

Russian and Polish officials said there were no survivors on the 26-year-old Tupolev, which was taking the president, his wife and staff to events marking the 70th anniversary of the massacre in Katyn forest of thousands of Polish officers by Soviet secret police.

The crash devastated the upper echelons of Poland's political and military establishments. On board were the army chief of staff, national bank president, deputy foreign minister, army chaplain, head of the National Security Office, deputy parliament speaker, civil rights commissioner and at least two presidential aides and three lawmakers, the Polish foreign ministry said.

Although initial signs pointed to an accident with no indication of foul play, the death of a Polish president and much of the Polish state and defense establishment in Russia en route to commemorating one of the saddest events in Poland's long, complicated history with Russia, was laden with tragic irony.

Reflecting the grave sensibilities of the crash to relations between the two countries, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin personally assumed charge of the investigation. He was due in Smolensk later Saturday, where he would meet Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who was flying in from Warsaw.

"This is unbelievable — this tragic, cursed Katyn," Kaczynski's predecessor, Aleksander Kwasniewski, said on TVN24 television.

It is "a cursed place, horrible symbolism," he said. "It's hard to believe. You get chills down your spine."

Andrei Yevseyenkov, spokesman for the Smolensk regional government, said Russian dispatchers asked the crew to divert from the military airport in North Smolensk and land instead in Minsk, the capital of neighboring Belarus, or in Moscow because of the fog.

While traffic controllers generally have the final word in whether it is safe for a plane to land, they can and do leave it to the pilots' discretion.

"The crew made an independent decision to land in Smolensk," Yevseyenkov said in televised remarks.

Russia's Emergency Ministry said there were 96 dead, 88 of whom were part of the Polish state delegation. Poland's Foreign Ministry spokesman, Piotr Paszkowski, said there were 89 people on the passenger list but one person had not shown up for the roughly 1 1/2-hour flight from Warsaw's main airport.

Some of the people on board were relatives of those slain in the Katyn massacre. Also among the victims was Anna Walentynowicz, whose firing in August 1980 from the Lenin Shipyards in Gdansk sparked a workers' strike that spurred the eventual creation of the Solidarity freedom movement. She went on to be a prominent member.

"This is a great tragedy, a great shock to us all," former president and Solidarity leader Lech Walesa said.

The deaths were not expected to directly affect the functioning of Polish government: Poland's president is commander in chief of its armed forces but the position's domestic duties are chiefly symbolic. Most top government ministers were not aboard the plane.

According to the Aviation Safety Network, there have been 66 crashes involving Tu-154s, including six in the past five years. The Russian carrier Aeroflot recently withdrew its Tu-154 fleet from service.

Poland has long discussed replacing the planes that carry the country's leaders but said they lacked the funds.

The presidential plane was fully overhauled in December, the general director of the Aviakor aviation maintenance plant in Samara, Russia told Rossiya-24. The plant repaired the plane's three engines, retrofitted electronic and navigation equipment and updated the interior, Alexei Gusev said. He said there could be no doubts that the plane was flightworthy.

The plane tilted to the left before crashing, eyewitness Slawomir Sliwinski told state news channel Rossiya-24. He said there were two loud explosions when the aircraft hit the ground.

Rossiya-24 showed footage from the crash site, with pieces of the plane scattered widely amid leafless trees and small fires burning in woods shrouded with fog. A tail fin with the red and white national colors of Poland stuck up from the debris.

Polish-Russian relations had been improving of late after being poisoned for decades over the Katyn massacre of some 22,000 Polish officers.

Russia never has formally apologized for the murders but Putin's decision to attend a memorial ceremony earlier this week in the forest near Katyn was seen as a gesture of goodwill toward reconciliation. Kaczynski wasn't invited to that event. Putin, as prime minister, had invited his Polish counterpart, Tusk.

Putin and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev both called Tusk to express their condolences and they promised to work closely with Poland in investigating the crash. Tusk said they had been the first to offer condolences.

"On this difficult day the people of Russia stand with the Polish people," Medvedev said, according to the Kremlin press service.

Putin told Tusk that he would keep him fully briefed on the investigation, his spokesman said.

Rossiya-24 showed hundreds of people around the Katyn monument, many holding Polish flags, some weeping.

Poland's parliament speaker, the acting president, declared a week of national mourning. Tusk called for two minutes of silence at noon (1000GMT) Sunday.

"The contemporary world has not seen such a tragedy," he said.

In Warsaw, Tusk also called an extraordinary meeting of his Cabinet and the national flag was lowered to half-staff at the presidential palace, where several thousand people gathered to lay flowers and light candles. Black ribbons appeared in some windows in the capital.

Kaczynski, 60, was the twin brother of Poland's opposition leader, former Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski. Kaczynski's wife, Maria, was an economist. They had a daughter, Marta, and two granddaughters.

Lech Kaczynski became president in December 2005 after defeating Tusk in that year's presidential vote.

The nationalist conservative had said he would seek a second term in presidential elections this fall. He was expected to face an uphill struggle against Parliament speaker Bronislaw Komorowski, the candidate of Tusk's governing Civic Platform party.

The constitution says the parliament speaker announce early elections within 14 days of the president's death. The vote must be held within another 60 days.

Poland, a nation of 38 million people, is by far the largest of the 10 formerly communist countries that have joined the European Union in recent years.

Last year, Poland was the only EU nation to avoid recession and posted economic growth of 1.7 percent.

It has become a firm U.S. ally in the region since the fall of communism — a stance that crosses party lines.

The country sent troops to the U.S.-led war in Iraq and recently boosted its contingent in Afghanistan to some 2,600 soldiers.

U.S. Patriot missiles are expected to be deployed in Poland this year. That was a Polish condition for a 2008 deal — backed by both Kaczynski and Tusk — to host long-range missile defense interceptors.

The deal, which was struck by the Bush administration, angered Russia and was later reconfigured under President Barack Obama's administration.

Under the Obama plan, Poland would host a different type of missile defense interceptors as part of a more mobile system and at a later date, probably not until 2018.

Kaczynski is the first serving Polish leader to die since exiled World War II-era leader Gen. Wladyslaw Sikorski in a plane crash off Gibraltar in 1943.

In the village of Gorzno, in northern Poland, the streets were largely empty as people stayed home to watch television.

"It is very symbolic that they were flying to pay homage to so many murdered Poles," said resident Waleria Gess, 73.

"I worry because so many clever and decent people were killed," said high school student Pawel Kwas, 17. "I am afraid we may have problems in the future to find equally talented politicians."
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-10-2010, 10:12 AM
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Reflecting the grave sensibilities of the crash to relations between the two countries, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin personally assumed charge of the investigation. He was due in Smolensk later Saturday, where he would meet Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who was flying in from Warsaw.
I think I would be taking the bus.

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-10-2010, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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I think I would be taking the bus.

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-10-2010, 02:24 PM
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Man everything I read on yahoo, I can count on it being posted up here.

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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 01:45 PM
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There's already some sites claiming conspiracy.http://governmentagainstthepeople.wo...n-plane-crash/ Those people are nuts getting on a plane that old.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 02:14 PM
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Conspiracy, or stupidity?

Have you ever heard of the top 2 people of any country flying/traveling together?
Let alone all of the top government officials in one old P.O.S. plane?

My questions:
1. Why would they all of a sudden all fly together?
2. Why would the top brass of Poland fly such a shitty plane? Are you telling me they can not afford to charter a decent plane?
3. Why would a seasoned pilot disregard the airport towers warning of heavy fog?

I'm not saying anything other than what is being reported, is anything other than true. But these questions are valid, and would lead some one to think foul play is a foot, if left unanswered.



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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tazz007 View Post
Conspiracy, or stupidity?

Have you ever heard of the top 2 people of any country flying/traveling together?
Let alone all of the top government officials in one old P.O.S. plane?

My questions:
1. Why would they all of a sudden all fly together?
2. Why would the top brass of Poland fly such a shitty plane? Are you telling me they can not afford to charter a decent plane?
3. Why would a seasoned pilot disregard the airport towers warning of heavy fog?

I'm not saying anything other than what is being reported, is anything other than true. But these questions are valid, and would lead some one to think foul play is a foot, if left unanswered.
I'd say it was way more than the top 2.


Believed to have been on the plane:

* Lech Kaczynski, the President of Poland
* Maria Kaczynska, the first lady
* Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile
* Jerzy Szmajdzinski, Deputy speaker of Sejm (Polish Parliament)
* Wladyslaw Stasiak, Minister of Internal Affairs and Administration
* Aleksander Szczyglo, head of the National Security Bureau
* Pawel Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
* Mariusz Handzlik, Undersectretary of State for International Affairs
* Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
* General Franciszek Gagor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff
* Andrzej Przewoznik, Secretary-General of Rada Ochrony Pamie;ci Walk i Me;czen'stwa
* Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
* Przemyslaw Gosiewski, Deputy Prime Minister of Poland
* Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
* Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman
* Slawomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland
* Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance
* Bishop Tadeusz Ploski
* Gen. Bronislaw Kwiatkowski (Commander Operations)
* Gen. Andrew Blasik (Air Force Commander in Chief)
* Gen. Tadeusz Buk (Commander of Land Forces)
* Gen. Wojciech Potasinski (Commander of Special Forces)
* Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta (Commander in Chief of the Polish Navy)
* Gen. Casimir Gilarski (Commander, Training)

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomos...e_osoby_w.html


.

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 04:35 PM
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Oh, and it seems Medvedev created an investigative committee...


Any guesses who's heading it?








Waaaaaait for it...






Vladimir Putin.


http://lenta.ru/news/2010/04/10/comission/ (in Russian)

Rough translation:
Quote:
The President of Russia Dmitriy Medvedev created special commission for the investigation of the circumstances of plane crash Tu-154 near Smolensk, it reports RIA of the news with the reference for the communication of the press service of the Kremlin. The prime minister of Russia Vladimir Putin headed commission. Furthermore, in the place of incident on the instruction of Medvedev it departed the head MChS (emergency and disaster relief ministry) of Russia to Sergey [Shoyg]. In the place of the fall of aircraft Tu-154 the President of Poland left the inspectors and the criminalists for the investigation administration [SKP] for Smolenskaya Oblast and of transport investigation administration [SKP] of Russia. Furthermore, to the place of incident departed the minister of transportation of Russia Igor [Levitin]. MChS of Russia opened the telephone of " hot of [linii]" information- psychological support in the Russian and Englishes - (495) 626-37-07. The aircraft of the President approached for landing under the conditions of heavy fog. On its board they were located, according to the preliminary data of 132 people. According to the data of MChS, that survived no. On board the aircraft were located the President of Poland [Lekh] [Kachinskiy], his husband and Polish official delegation. The President was bound for the memorial measures for [Katyn].


.

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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 04:36 PM
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Man everything I read on yahoo, I can count on it being posted up here.
I prefer reading it here actually. DFW actually siphons out all of the celebrity bullshit I could give a fuck about.

As far as the crash goes, I am having a hard time understanding why a president of any somewhat decent country doesn't fly on a small private jet. I guess they needed ALL of those ranking individuals at that location at one time so crammed them all on a shitbox. Sounds too weird.

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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by f0ur sixer View Post
I prefer reading it here actually. DFW actually siphons out all of the celebrity bullshit I could give a fuck about.

As far as the crash goes, I am having a hard time understanding why a president of any somewhat decent country doesn't fly on a small private jet. I guess they needed ALL of those ranking individuals at that location at one time so crammed them all on a shitbox. Sounds too weird.
Because Poland isn't a decent country
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 05:34 PM
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First Georgia, then Ukraine, followed by Kyrgyzstan, now Poland, ontop of the biggest Russian build up in 40 years. WOW
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 10:45 PM
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That was the only TU-154M in the Polish inventory and it was the latest model, not one of the 40ish year old ones. It had the newer engines and was one that had all of the latest avionics on it.
They crashed on their 4th attempt to land. Why in the hell was there more than 2 attempts? Sounds to me like it was probably pilot error. Those planes actually have a good mechanical safety record. Most of the mishaps they've been in over the years have been human-factor related.
That really sucks for Poland though. Once again, it is pretty suspicious timing.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 09:02 AM
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First Georgia, then Ukraine, followed by Kyrgyzstan, now Poland, ontop of the biggest Russian build up in 40 years. WOW
Don't forget about their military having joint training excercises with Venezuela in recent years. We've had Soviet nuclear warships sailing around the Caribbean along with their latest jets flying all over the region.

We've been crapping on their lawn for years, you can't expect someone like Putin to stand back and watch us do it forever.

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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 09:08 AM
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Man everything I read on yahoo, I can count on it being posted up here.
Yahoo is the new newspaper/news cast. Didn't you know?

As for the Polish president, I smell a conspiracy.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 11:52 AM
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Russians don't take a dump, son, without a plan.

'Russia engineered air crash that killed President Kaczynski,' claims Polish MP

By Mail Foreign Service
Last updated at 8:09 AM on 13th April 2010

The Russian government prevented the Polish president's plane from landing four times to divert him from a ceremony to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, according to an MP.

Artur Gorski said the Russians 'came up with some dubious reasons' that the aircraft couldn't land because they feared President Leck Kaczynski's presence would overshadow a similar event hosted by the Russian prime minister a few days before.

And their alleged plan ended in disaster when the Polish pilots made one final and disastrous attempt to land, killing Mr Kaczynski, his wife, and 94 others on board the plane.

'One version of events says that the plane approached the airport four times, because every time the Russians refused it permission to land - they wanted to send the plane with the president to an airport in Moscow or Minsk,' Mr Gorski claimed in an interview published in the newspaper Nasz Dziennik.

'They came up with some dubious reasons: that there was fog over the airport, and that the navigation system didn't work as it was under renovation, and that airport had a short landing strip.'

The claims were made as shocking new details emerged of the final minutes of the flight before it crashed into a Russian forest on Saturday morning.

One of the Russian air traffic controllers involved in the tragedy said he believes the Polish air force pilot Arkadiusz Protasiuk, 36, was under severe pressure 'to land at any cost' so that the president would not miss the commemoration of the death of 22,000 Poles slaughtered by Stalin.

But he claims there were also serious language problems between the control tower at the military airport near Smolensk and the crew as the aircraft began its descent, and final approach, 'without our permission'.

The crew failed to report to the ground their altitude readings, said Colonel Anatoly Muraviev, a former pilot.

He believes the captain 'was desperate to land because of the high ranking passengers he was carrying. It killed both the crew and the passengers.'

It was known that Mr Kaczynski once fired a flight crew when they refused to land at Tbilisi - and flew to another airport, he said.

'Now try to imagine yourself in chief pilot's shoes. Fear, false shame, thinking that going to another airport is a disgrace - all this led to the fact that the crew died and killed all the others. I am a former pilot myself, I understand all this very well.'

The tapes of the conversations with the flight crew have not been released - so it is unclear if there is specific evidence of an order to the captain from either the president or the military top brass on board.

Polish investigators said they will probe whether there were 'any suggestions made to the pilots' from other people aboard the plane.

Colonel Muraviev claimed there were a number of specific causes of the crash - 'weather conditions, maybe a mistake of the pilot who did not watch his altitude, and also the pilot's wish to land at any cost'.

He said the controllers and flight crew stumbled in Russian and broken English to understand each other in the final decisive seconds of the flight.

Col Muraviev claimed that the fog 'was worsening' as the Polish president's plane came into land. One flight had landed earlier but another had been redirected to Moscow.

Of Kaczynski's flight, he said: 'At first it was descending OK, according to the rules, no problems. Soon our air traffic controllers began to worry. The head of our group three times ordered the pilots to stop this attempt to land, and try one more time, while also preparing to fly to another airport because of bad visibility.

'The crew did not listen to him. So the traffic control warned them about bad visibility and the necessity to fly to another airport.

'The crew did not obey, so the controllers had only one thing to do - to carry on leading in the plane and see what happens. There was only one attempt to land and the plane crashed.'

Because it was a civilian flight, they did not have the authority to order them to another airport, he said.

He said 'mainly we spoke Russian to the crew, partly bad English. Understanding was hard.'

The Polish pilots 'began to land without our permission' and 'did not report to us with their altitude data', he added.

Another controller Pavel Plyusnin confirmed the understanding was '50-50' as the plane approached its tragic end.

'It was hard to guess here if the pilot understood us properly,' said Col Muraviev. 'The language barrier did not help of course. I think it could have affected the result of this flight along with other circumstances.'

The Polish air force yesterday defended father-of-two Captain Protasiuk, saying he 'often flew with the president and other VIPs'.

A spokesman said it was 'ruled out' that the president could have forced the pilot to land at Smolensk.

The body of Poland's first lady Maria Kaczynska was identified yesterday by her wedding ring - with her husband's name inscribed on the inside - and the colour of her finger nails. Many of the bodies are so badly mangled they will require DNA matching.

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