What exactly are the bad pts to healthcare ( no opinion) - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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What exactly are the bad pts to healthcare ( no opinion)

Lets discuss what really is bad about this bill. ( Without opinions). I am totally against the bill and its socialistic style... but that does not help convince people that are for it.

People keep talking about the goods: ( this is just some of the stuff that has come up in discussion)

Easier for self employed to get insurance, insurance companies can't cancel my coverage at will if I get "too" sick, there's no cap to how much they will cover over my life span as long as I pay my... premium, and kids can't be descriminated from coverage for pre existing conditions to name a few

So without crying socialism... what are the bad points.

I am against the bill but I am curious because all of the threads on here seem to be merely opinion.

I will use the response to argue back which is why i would like opinions left out.
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post #2 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:48 PM
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They are forcing you to purchase insurance or face a penalty

This is giving more handouts to lazy ass people who dont do things for themself.

This will cause more people to waste money on ER visits instead of a Dr office for treatment because its more convenient.

More red tape and paperwork

Health care costs will increase with all the governments bullshit hoops to jump through for filing reimbursement costs to health care facilities.

Hiring of more office/hospital staff to deal with the more paperwork (increase costs)

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post #3 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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This will cause more people to waste money on ER visits instead of a Dr office for treatment because its more convenient.

)
I agree with everything except this one. I always thought people went to ER's because they DIDN'T have insurance and the ER can not turn you down. Now that they will have gubment insurance they can go to the doctor meaning lines will be even worse now at your family doctor.
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post #4 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:51 PM
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Hiring of more office/hospital staff to deal with the more paperwork (increase costs)
GASP it creates more jobs! And it only cost what, $940 Billion?

I wonder when they will make politicians pass a math test before swearing in?
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post #5 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:54 PM
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BTW you can re-state one con to be...
You're required to purchase it. If you do not you face a "penalty", which is worded as a 2% tax.
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post #6 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:55 PM
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I agree with everything except this one. I always thought people went to ER's because they DIDN'T have insurance and the ER can not turn you down. Now that they will have gubment insurance they can go to the doctor meaning lines will be even worse now at your family doctor.
So, what will you do when you are insured, you get sick, call your family doctor, and it takes 6-8 weeks to see him?

You are going to go to ER, that is what you will do.

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post #7 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:15 PM
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After reading this, I wonder if it really will force the purchase of insurance?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c111gfgFZw::




H.R.3590
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



SEC. 1555. FREEDOM NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN FEDERAL HEALTH INSURANCE PROGRAMS.

No individual, company, business, nonprofit entity, or health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall be required to participate in any Federal health insurance program created under this Act (or any amendments made by this Act), or in any Federal health insurance program expanded by this Act (or any such amendments), and there shall be no penalty or fine imposed upon any such issuer for choosing not to participate in such programs.
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post #8 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:18 PM
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I agree with everything except this one. I always thought people went to ER's because they DIDN'T have insurance and the ER can not turn you down. Now that they will have gubment insurance they can go to the doctor meaning lines will be even worse now at your family doctor.
I just do not get this comment, "people went to ER's because they DIDN'T have insurance". I hear it all the time. When I was working at Nokia, my local DR office did not take my work insurance, so I would pay out of pocket and then get the money from insurance by filling paper work. The DR office visit is $50. Just $50. The only thing I get is they have a sign that states you must pay at time of visit, unlike the ER were people skip out on paying.
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post #9 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:41 PM
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After reading this, I wonder if it really will force the purchase of insurance?
After reading this, I hope you read harder
The issue most people are worried about it that the current health care cost is going to go up and entice you to switch the government program. You're required to have health insurance, just not reuqired to have the government's version.

Sorry for the full text post, but didn't want to post the summary

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...fgFZw:e406299:

CHAPTER 48--MAINTENANCE OF MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE

`Sec. 5000A. Requirement to maintain minimum essential coverage.

`SEC. 5000A. REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE.

`(a) Requirement To Maintain Minimum Essential Coverage- An applicable individual shall for each month beginning after 2013 ensure that the individual, and any dependent of the individual who is an applicable individual, is covered under minimum essential coverage for such month.

`(b) Shared Responsibility Payment-

`(1) IN GENERAL- If an applicable individual fails to meet the requirement of subsection (a) for 1 or more months during any calendar year beginning after 2013, then, except as provided in subsection (d), there is hereby imposed a penalty with respect to the individual in the amount determined under subsection (c).

`(2) INCLUSION WITH RETURN- Any penalty imposed by this section with respect to any month shall be included with a taxpayer's return under chapter 1 for the taxable year which includes such month.

`(3) PAYMENT OF PENALTY- If an individual with respect to whom a penalty is imposed by this section for any month--

`(A) is a dependent (as defined in section 152) of another taxpayer for the other taxpayer's taxable year including such month, such other taxpayer shall be liable for such penalty, or

`(B) files a joint return for the taxable year including such month, such individual and the spouse of such individual shall be jointly liable for such penalty.

`(c) Amount of Penalty-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The penalty determined under this subsection for any month with respect to any individual is an amount equal to 1/12 of the applicable dollar amount for the calendar year.

`(2) DOLLAR LIMITATION- The amount of the penalty imposed by this section on any taxpayer for any taxable year with respect to all individuals for whom the taxpayer is liable under subsection (b)(3) shall not exceed an amount equal to 300 percent the applicable dollar amount (determined without regard to paragraph (3)(C)) for the calendar year with or within which the taxable year ends.

`(3) APPLICABLE DOLLAR AMOUNT- For purposes of paragraph (1)--

`(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the applicable dollar amount is $750.

`(B) PHASE IN- The applicable dollar amount is $95 for 2014 and $350 for 2015.


`(C) SPECIAL RULE FOR INDIVIDUALS UNDER AGE 18- If an applicable individual has not attained the age of 18 as of the beginning of a month, the applicable dollar amount with respect to such individual for the month shall be equal to one-half of the applicable dollar amount for the calendar year in which the month occurs.

`(D) INDEXING OF AMOUNT- In the case of any calendar year beginning after 2016, the applicable dollar amount shall be equal to $750, increased by an amount equal to--

`(i) $750, multiplied by

`(ii) the cost-of-living adjustment determined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar year, determined by substituting `calendar year 2015' for `calendar year 1992' in subparagraph (B) thereof.

If the amount of any increase under clause (i) is not a multiple of $50, such increase shall be rounded to the next lowest multiple of $50.
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post #10 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:03 PM
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REALLY?

the list is huge but heres a thought.


it will decrease doctors on site and increase wait time.

service will go straight to shit.

but most importantly they just pulled there dicks out and pissed on our constitution.(yes polosi probably has a dick)

if we let them do that once they will never stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!


say by by to the bill of rights my friend.(unless this is shot down quick)

THIS IS HIGH TREASON!!!! PEOPLE USED TO HANG IN PUBLIC FOR THIS KIND OF SHIT!!!

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post #11 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:07 PM
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17,000 more IRS agents will have to be hired.
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post #12 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:12 PM
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17,000 more IRS agents will have to be hired.
and they just bought 16,500 shotguns and combat training for the IRS agents now.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
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post #13 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:18 PM
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The absolute worst thing about the bill is that the federal government *way* overstepped their power in enacting this bill. If it isn't stopped by SCOTUS, it sets a dangerous precedent for additional laws like this that the democrats are craving. All of these kinds of bills spend "other people's money". Hopefully the law will be killed, the dems will be slapped back down, and the Constitution will be reaffirmed.
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post #14 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:30 PM
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i just do not get this comment, "people went to er's because they didn't have insurance". I hear it all the time. When i was working at nokia, my local dr office did not take my work insurance, so i would pay out of pocket and then get the money from insurance by filling paper work. The dr office visit is $50. Just $50. The only thing i get is they have a sign that states you must pay at time of visit, unlike the er were people skip out on paying.
$0 < $50 ?
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post #15 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:59 PM
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AdamLX, there is no public option in the bill passed so there is no govt provided insurance. Just mandates and further taxes and spending. More punishing the haves and giving handouts to the have-nots.
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post #16 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:13 PM
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obama needs to be impeached.like now.

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post #17 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:56 PM
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I agree with everything except this one. I always thought people went to ER's because they DIDN'T have insurance and the ER can not turn you down. Now that they will have gubment insurance they can go to the doctor meaning lines will be even worse now at your family doctor.
I don't understand where all these new doctors are coming from



My private practice MD quit taking on new patients several years ago. He will take a new one now and again do to someone dying, but most of the time he won't.
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post #18 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:56 PM
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You guys don't get the full picture.

17k more armed IRS agents. Think about that for a min.
You will have a new deduction on your pay check. Just like FICA, Med. care. (how much do you think that will be?)
You will be told what doctor you can go to... Ever been to a bad doctor? I have, it sux.

IRS will have 24/7 access to you banking account. (Just in case you have any ideas about buying food instead of paying the doc this month.)
Federal government will have full access to your medical records. (And we all know how good they will guard your info)

They cut medicare all ready, to cut down on expenses. How well do you think they will care for you by the time you get old?

You will be helping pay for killing baby's! (abortion) Yes I said killing Baby's, because that's exactly what it is!

Need more bad news?


This is not about health care, it's about power and control.



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post #19 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:59 PM
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and they just bought 16,500 shotguns and combat training for the IRS agents now.

Gee, you think they know they have gone too far?



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post #20 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:07 PM
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It empowers a power hungry man, that will now attempt to multi-penetrate us with Cap'n'trade, immigration reform and whatever else he sees fit.

Watch for gun control legislation and getting rid of that pesky right to vote.

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post #21 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:22 PM
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sons of bitches.

who comes up with this shit,Obama? really?

i want the new american agenda authors name/names.

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post #22 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:25 PM
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sons of bitches.

who comes up with this shit,Obama? really?

i want the new american agenda authors name/names.
Stop looking for the puppets
START LOOKING FOR THE PUPPET MASTERS! These people are freedoms enemy.

Follow the money to find these people



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post #23 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:44 PM
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The plan in its currently form also states, that you can NOT be turned down or have your premiums cost more for having a pre-existing condition.

This alone will RAISE the cost of health insurance.

Not that I will do the following, but there are "Welfare" people who will.

Currently there isn't really anyway for them to enforce the health insurance thing. So some people will NOT get health care until they get hurt.

Example : Mr. Oak Cliff Resident, doesn't get insurance. He saids I'd rather buy my 40oz Malt Beer than buy health insurance. He goes walking across the street starts puking. He goes to Parkland and they run some tests on him and finds out he has Cancer (Or whatever else you can think wrong in here). He now calls up a insurance provider and states he wants health insurance NOW. He pays 1 month worth of premiums and is FULLY COVERED FOR ALL THE CANCER TREATMENTS IMMEDIATELY. Once he's done with treatments (If the docs state he doesn't have to come back for 6 months, he cancels his policy and waits the day before he has to go back. Then he buys it again).

Its like not having car insurance, but when you get in a wreck, immediately call get insurance and have them cover your car... BULLSHIT.

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post #24 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:49 PM
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Currently there isn't really anyway for them to enforce the health insurance thing.
I guess you missed this part:

Quote:
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`(1) IN GENERAL- If an applicable individual fails to meet the requirement of subsection (a) for 1 or more months during any calendar year beginning after 2013, then, except as provided in subsection (d), there is hereby imposed a penalty with respect to the individual in the amount determined under subsection (c).
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post #25 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 12:24 AM
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I agree with everything except this one. I always thought people went to ER's because they DIDN'T have insurance and the ER can not turn you down. Now that they will have gubment insurance they can go to the doctor meaning lines will be even worse now at your family doctor.
You need to walk into an ER and see the people that come in. Lots of people still have insurance yet come to an ER, pay a higher deductible for and earache.

The ER is used as a clinic by people with or without insurance and always will be. This is why most decent sized ERs have a fast track section that treats non emergency illnesses.

While we get people without insurance (our hospital is in a higher class area where more people pay their bills and/or have insurance), the hospital is used as a doctors office. People who flood to the ER for nonsense are people who are on medicaid. I understand many PCPs do not deal with medicaid (because they dont want to deal with the govt bullshit), how do you think its going to be now? Dr's offices refusing to see patients with certain insurance (due to low reimbursements and taking forever to process the bills) is going to force even more crappy insurance policy holders to places where they take ANY insurance...the ER.

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post #26 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 12:45 AM
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the masters need to show there faces. pussies!

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post #27 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 02:39 AM
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By 2016 just 5 and a half years away fines will be 695 dollars per uninsured adult.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/24...ex.html?hpt=T1
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post #28 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 08:19 AM
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I'm really in the middle on this. I do have an issue with Big Brother forcing you to buy insurance, which is the underlying problem most people have. With that said, I think there is something to the notion that preventive care could save millions if everyone does have access to a doctor. Insurance companies have to turn a profit, the influx of XX millions of customers might be incentive enough for more companies to jump in the loop. The market's may be more competitive. Who knows?
With the raising cost of care, it seemed like some reform was needed. Why force us to buy into something we may not feel like we need? Why not target one of the biggest drivers of costs, the pharmaceutical industry, that's where the real reform was needed. My father is a retired veteran & uses the VA's health coverage regularly. Seems to be a circus there. Kind of a scary thought of what could be.....

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post #29 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 09:00 AM
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Once the government controls your healthcare they will control every aspect of your life.
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post #30 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 09:19 AM
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Once the government controls your healthcare they will control every aspect of your life.
I'm guessing this was meant to be sarcastic? The same can be said about your earned income & taxes.....

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post #31 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 10:27 AM
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I'm guessing this was meant to be sarcastic? The same can be said about your earned income & taxes.....
The HCL does more though. In the name of improving health, a number of taxes can come about.

Taxes on:
high sugar drinks
high cal foods
high chol foods
high fat foods
fast foods
drive throughs
all-you-can eat places
being over BMI surcharge
being a smoker surcharge
being a drinker surcharge
at risk activities: racing, ski diving, owning motocycle, ect.
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post #32 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 10:36 AM
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What about all of the illegals being treated in hospitals on our dime already? Isn't this a big reason health insurance costs keep rising? How come citizens keep having to pay and will now be forced to buy insurance and illegals don't? Does the gomnt expect the illegals to pay and how can costs go down if they don't?
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post #33 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 11:19 AM
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By 2016 just 5 and a half years away fines will be 695 dollars per uninsured adult.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/24...ex.html?hpt=T1
That's a minimum. $695 or 2.5% of your income, whichever is more.

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post #34 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 11:52 AM
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That's a minimum. $695 or 2.5% of your income, whichever is more.
So my fine will be 2625... That is nuts.

Isnt' there a figure on the average cost of insurance based on income? or has that changed as well?

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post #35 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 12:18 PM
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So my fine will be 2625... That is nuts.

Isnt' there a figure on the average cost of insurance based on income? or has that changed as well?
six figure salary, eh? Is that mainly commission from home sales? Just guessing by your screenname.....

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post #36 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 01:04 PM
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What about all of the illegals being treated in hospitals on our dime already? Isn't this a big reason health insurance costs keep rising? How come citizens keep having to pay and will now be forced to buy insurance and illegals don't? Does the gomnt expect the illegals to pay and how can costs go down if they don't?
Yes, notice that right after he signed the Health Care bill, he said that he wanted to tackle immigration??? In there lies the point, you pass the Health Care Bill, and then go for an Immigration Bill. You see how they were able to pass the bill without ANY Republican support? Well, they'll have an easier time passing an Immigration Bill.

The Dems will be too afraid to vote against it because they don't want to "betray" their Hispanic base, while the Republicans won't want to vote against it inorder to keep from losing what Hispanic vote they haven't already lost, and to keep making inroads towards removing the Democrats from office in Nov.

Don't be suprised if they get an Immigration Bill passed in a last ditch effort to "go crazy" and pass everything they can pass before the elections..
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post #37 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 01:26 PM
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So my fine will be 2625... That is nuts.
Of course it will be.
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post #38 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 01:36 PM
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This is all about more and more control of our lives. Our criminal government has wanted this for a long time. There are so many things they can build off this health care horse shit. It's merely a platform to be able to do many other devious things to us under the guise of something helpful.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
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post #39 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Got5onIt View Post
I'm really in the middle on this. I do have an issue with Big Brother forcing you to buy insurance, which is the underlying problem most people have. With that said, I think there is something to the notion that preventive care could save millions if everyone does have access to a doctor. Insurance companies have to turn a profit, the influx of XX millions of customers might be incentive enough for more companies to jump in the loop. The market's may be more competitive. Who knows?
With the raising cost of care, it seemed like some reform was needed. Why force us to buy into something we may not feel like we need? Why not target one of the biggest drivers of costs, the pharmaceutical industry, that's where the real reform was needed. My father is a retired veteran & uses the VA's health coverage regularly. Seems to be a circus there. Kind of a scary thought of what could be.....
Dude..come on. Preventative care has shown to be MORE EXPENSIVE than treating people who are actually sick. Now you will have MILLIONS of more women getting mammograms and pap smears when they have no signs or family evidence of risk. While I think its a good idea, the costs have already been calculated and shown preventative care for all the people who would have never gone to begin with will cost much much more.

On the side of pharmaceutical companies...I just dont see how you can blame them. They spend years and years and millions and millions of dollars on the development of medications. The R&D side of it takes years, then they have to do lots of testing, then jump through all the FDA loops to try and market the medicine. Then, if 10 years later they find out that the drug might cause a higher chance of something else going wrong, they pull the medicine (losing their profits), then people go sue crazy for MILLIONS of dollars for damages. Pharmaceutical companies have lots of risk and that is why WHEN they do finally come up with a good medicine that will help people, 5-10 years after the R&D starts, they turn a profit. This is also why they get patents on their medications so people dont rip them off and start selling the same thing. You cant pop a new medicine out of your ass, push it through the FDA, market it for nothing and turn millions in profits.

If you think they are the crooks, just wait until there are no pharmaceutical companies out there willing to develop new medications for illnesses because there is no profit to be made. Then we are all fucked.

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post #40 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 02:16 PM
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Myth 1: This is a universal health care bill.

Fact: The bill is neither universal health care nor universal health insurance. According to the Congressional Budget Office:

Total uninsured in 2019 with no bill: 54 million

Total uninsured in 2019 with Senate bill: 24 million


Myth 2: Insurance companies hate this bill.
Fact: This bill is almost identical to the plan written by AHIP, the insurance company trade association, in 2009.
The original Senate Finance Committee bill was authored by a former Wellpoint vice president. Since Congress released the first of its health care bills on October 30, 2009, health care stocks have risen 28.35%.

Myth 3: The bill will significantly bring down insurance premiums for most Americans.

Fact: The bill will not bring down premiums significantly, and certainly not the $2,500/year that President Obama promised during his campaign.


Annual premiums in 2016: status quo / with bill:
Small group market, single: $7,800 / $7,800
Small group market, family: $19,3oo / $19,200
Large Group market, single: $7,400 / $7,300
Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300
Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800
Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200

(The cost of premiums in the individual market goes up somewhat due to subsidies and mandates of better coverage. The CBO assumes that cost of individual policies goes down 7-10%, and that people will buy more generous policies.)

Myth 4: The bill will make health care affordable for middle class Americans.

Fact: The bill will impose a financial hardship on middle class Americans who will be forced to buy a product that they can't afford to use.

A family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $5,243 per year for insurance. After basic necessities, this leaves them with $8,307 in discretionary income -- out of which they would have to cover clothing, credit card and other debt, child care and education costs, in addition to $5,882 in annual out-of-pocket medical expenses for which families will be responsible.

Myth 5: This plan is similar to the Massachusetts plan, which makes health care affordable.

Fact: Many Massachusetts residents forgo health care because they can't afford it. A 2009 study by the state of Massachusetts found that:

21% of residents forgo medical treatment because they can't afford it, including 12% of children

18% have health insurance but can't afford to use it


Myth 6: This bill provides health care to 31 million people who are currently uninsured.
Fact: This bill will mandate that millions of people who are currently uninsured purchase insurance from private companies, or the IRS will collect up to 2% of their annual income in penalties. Some will be assisted with government subsidies.

Myth 7: You can keep the insurance you have if you like it.

Fact: The excise tax will result in employers switching to plans with higher co-pays and fewer covered services.
Older, less healthy employees with employer-based health care will be forced to pay much more in out-of-pocket expenses than they do now.

Myth 8: The "excise tax" will encourage employers to reduce the scope of health care benefits, and they will pass the savings on to employees in the form of higher wages.

Fact: There is insufficient evidence that employers pass savings from reduced benefits on to employees.

Myth 9: This bill employs nearly every cost control idea available to bring down costs.

Fact: This bill does not bring down costs and leaves out nearly every key cost control measure, including:

Public Option ($25-$110 billion)

Medicare buy-in

Drug re-importation ($19 billion)

Medicare drug price negotiation ($300 billion)

Shorter pathway to generic biologics ($71 billion)


Myth 10: The bill will require big companies like Wal-Mart to provide insurance for their employees.
Fact: The bill was written so that most Wal-Mart employees will qualify for subsidies, and taxpayers will pick up a large portion of the cost of their coverage.

Myth 11: The bill "bends the cost curve" on health care.

Fact: "Bends the cost curve" is a misleading and trivial claim, as the U.S. would still spend far more for care than other advanced countries.

In 2009, health care costs were 17.3% of GDP.

Annual cost of health care in 2019, status quo: $4,670.6 billion (20.8% of GDP)

Annual cost of health care in 2019, Senate bill: $4,693.5 billion (20.9% of GDP)


Myth 12: The bill will provide immediate access to insurance for Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition.
Fact: Access to the "high risk pool" is limited and the pool is underfunded. Only those who have been uninsured for more than six months will qualify for the high-risk pool. Only 0.7% of those without insurance now will get coverage, and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services report estimates it will run out of funding by 2011 or 2012.

Myth 13: The bill prohibits dropping people in individual plans from coverage when they get sick.

Fact: The bill does not empower a regulatory body to keep people from being dropped when they're sick. There are already many states that have laws on the books prohibiting people from being dropped when they're sick, but without an enforcement mechanism, there is little to hold the insurance companies in check.

Myth 14: The bill ensures consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to challenge new insurance plan decisions.

Fact: The "internal appeals process" is in the hands of the insurance companies themselves, and the "external" one is up to each state.

Ensuring that consumers have access to "internal appeals" simply means the insurance companies have to review their own decisions. And it is the responsibility of each state to provide an "external appeals process," as there is neither funding nor a regulatory mechanism for enforcement at the federal level.

Myth 15: This bill will stop insurance companies from hiking rates 30%-40% per year.

Fact: This bill does not limit insurance company rate hikes. Private insurers continue to be exempt from anti-trust laws, and are free to raise rates without fear of competition in many areas of the country.

Myth 16: When the bill passes, people will begin receiving benefits under this bill immediately

Fact: Most provisions in this bill, such as an end to the ban on pre-existing conditions for adults, do not take effect until 2014.

Six months from the date of passage, children could not be excluded from coverage due to pre-existing conditions, though insurance companies could charge more to cover them. Children would also be allowed to stay on their parents' plans until age 26. There will be an elimination of lifetime coverage limits, a high risk pool for those who have been uninsured for more than 6 months, and community health centers will start receiving money.

Myth 17: The bill creates a pathway for single payer.

Fact: Bernie Sanders' provision in the Senate bill does not start until 2017, and does not cover the Department of Labor, so no, it doesn't create a pathway for single payer.

Obama told Dennis Kucinich that the Ohio Representative's amendment is similar to Bernie Sanders' provision in the Senate bill, and creates a pathway to single payer. Since the waiver does not start until 2017, and does not cover the Department of Labor, it is nearly impossible to see how it gets around the ERISA laws that stand in the way of any practical state single payer system.

Myth 18: The bill will end medical bankruptcy and provide all Americans with peace of mind.

Fact: Most people with medical bankruptcies already have insurance, and out-of-pocket expenses will continue to be a burden on the middle class.

In 2009, 1.5 million Americans declared bankruptcy

Of those, 62% were medically related

Three-quarters of those had health insurance

The Obama bill leaves 24 million without insurance

The maximum yearly out-of-pocket limit for a family will be $11,900 (PDF) on top of premiums

A family with serious medical problems that last for a few years could easily be financially crushed by medical costs


Real health care reform is needed. But this bill falls short of that on many levels.
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post #41 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 02:58 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLX View Post
After reading this, I hope you read harder
The issue most people are worried about it that the current health care cost is going to go up and entice you to switch the government program. You're required to have health insurance, just not reuqired to have the government's version.

Sorry for the full text post, but didn't want to post the summary

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...fgFZw:e406299:

CHAPTER 48--MAINTENANCE OF MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE

`Sec. 5000A. Requirement to maintain minimum essential coverage.

`SEC. 5000A. REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE.

`(a) Requirement To Maintain Minimum Essential Coverage- An applicable individual shall for each month beginning after 2013 ensure that the individual, and any dependent of the individual who is an applicable individual, is covered under minimum essential coverage for such month.

`(b) Shared Responsibility Payment-

`(1) IN GENERAL- If an applicable individual fails to meet the requirement of subsection (a) for 1 or more months during any calendar year beginning after 2013, then, except as provided in subsection (d), there is hereby imposed a penalty with respect to the individual in the amount determined under subsection (c).

`(2) INCLUSION WITH RETURN- Any penalty imposed by this section with respect to any month shall be included with a taxpayer's return under chapter 1 for the taxable year which includes such month.

`(3) PAYMENT OF PENALTY- If an individual with respect to whom a penalty is imposed by this section for any month--

`(A) is a dependent (as defined in section 152) of another taxpayer for the other taxpayer's taxable year including such month, such other taxpayer shall be liable for such penalty, or

`(B) files a joint return for the taxable year including such month, such individual and the spouse of such individual shall be jointly liable for such penalty.

`(c) Amount of Penalty-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The penalty determined under this subsection for any month with respect to any individual is an amount equal to 1/12 of the applicable dollar amount for the calendar year.

`(2) DOLLAR LIMITATION- The amount of the penalty imposed by this section on any taxpayer for any taxable year with respect to all individuals for whom the taxpayer is liable under subsection (b)(3) shall not exceed an amount equal to 300 percent the applicable dollar amount (determined without regard to paragraph (3)(C)) for the calendar year with or within which the taxable year ends.

`(3) APPLICABLE DOLLAR AMOUNT- For purposes of paragraph (1)--

`(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the applicable dollar amount is $750.

`(B) PHASE IN- The applicable dollar amount is $95 for 2014 and $350 for 2015.


`(C) SPECIAL RULE FOR INDIVIDUALS UNDER AGE 18- If an applicable individual has not attained the age of 18 as of the beginning of a month, the applicable dollar amount with respect to such individual for the month shall be equal to one-half of the applicable dollar amount for the calendar year in which the month occurs.

`(D) INDEXING OF AMOUNT- In the case of any calendar year beginning after 2016, the applicable dollar amount shall be equal to $750, increased by an amount equal to--

`(i) $750, multiplied by

`(ii) the cost-of-living adjustment determined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar year, determined by substituting `calendar year 2015' for `calendar year 1992' in subparagraph (B) thereof.

If the amount of any increase under clause (i) is not a multiple of $50, such increase shall be rounded to the next lowest multiple of $50.
Those are the parts I read first. I later found sec 1555 of the 3590. I seems to read clear,but I am unsure about its contradictory purpose.

I did find this elsewhere, it may explain its existence:
"Section 1555 only refers to any "Federal health insurance program", which doesn't exist because they stripped out the public option, it does not mention any private insurance plans. This is just a left over from when the public option was still in the bill and does nothing to stop them from requiring you to have minimum acceptable health insurance.

Section 5000a mentions the requirement to have acceptable minimum health insurance."
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post #42 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog View Post
The HCL does more though. In the name of improving health, a number of taxes can come about.

Taxes on:
high sugar drinks
high cal foods
high chol foods
high fat foods
fast foods
drive throughs
all-you-can eat places
being over BMI surcharge
being a smoker surcharge
being a drinker surcharge
at risk activities: racing, ski diving, owning motocycle, ect.
yeah, wait till they say firearms are a public health hazard. Its only gonna get worse from here. This is just the first step.

its still "we the people"right?

"So this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause"

"a lesson lived is a lesson learned, everyday is a lesson."

obama is a man made disaster
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post #43 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 03:22 PM
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As far as sec 1555, if it is a left over from the public option, it sounds to me it is exempting individual companies, businesses, etc that OFFER insurance. The wording states, if a Federal health insurance program is created under the Act, you don't have to participate in that one. But you are required to have insurance under the Act.
I don't believe the bill creates any new fed health ins, but, due to this bill, would all private and public health care industries will be part of the Federal Program?
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post #44 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 03:46 PM
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I'm loving this:

Quote:
One of the provisions in the new health care law requires small businesses to provide coverage for workers. Such an "employer mandate" has been in place in San Francisco, Calif., for over a year. The mandate has earned mixed reviews at best.

Under the law, businesses with 20 or more employees are required to provide medical coverage, either on their own or by paying into a city-run program. That's what most restaurants are doing -- albeit grudgingly.

To cover the cost, owners are either having to raise their menu prices or tack on a so-called "Healthy Surcharge" onto the tab.
At some places, it's around 4 percent of the check. Others charge a flat fee of a dollar or two.

Either way, customers are footing the bill for the health care of their waitstaff, busboys, and cooks, regardless of whether the workers work part time, live in San Francisco, or are in the U.S. legally.

How well the plan is going over seems to depend on where the restaurant is located. Management at many neighborhood bistros and cafes say customers don't seem to mind paying the extra surcharge. But folks running downtown restaurants -- many of which depend on visitors -- say the mandate is hurting their bottom line.

At the venerable Fior D'Italia in North Beach, Calif., owner Bob Larive says he's having to tax his customers to fund a political mandate. "It makes doing business here much more expensive, which makes the city less attractive in the long run to the visitors and the locals," he says.

Some eateries worry they'll have to let people go, or cut shifts. But Mayor Gavin Newsom gives a different view. A former restaurant owner himself, who lobbied hard for this universal health care program, Newsom argues it's saving restaurants and taxpayers money, by offering workers preventative care. Newsom argues that this in turn keeps them out out emergency rooms, and on the clock.

"Businesses get the benefit in the back end," Newsom says. "We have a more robust work force, greater productivity and output because employees have health care." He adds the program is providing healthcare to 50,000 people who don't have insurance.

But in a city that lost more than 200 restaurants in the past 4 years, critics say the extra expense is costing jobs and revenue San Francisco can't afford. What's more, the local restaurant lobby, the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, has filed suit, claiming the "employer mandate" violates federal law. The U.S. Supreme Court is now deciding whether to hear the case.
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2...s-health-care/

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post #45 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hass View Post
What about all of the illegals being treated in hospitals on our dime already? Isn't this a big reason health insurance costs keep rising? How come citizens keep having to pay and will now be forced to buy insurance and illegals don't? Does the gomnt expect the illegals to pay and how can costs go down if they don't?
If the big problem was illegals then why don't we deny illegals (except pregnant, and kids under 6) at the ER. Have a ICE on scene, and that will slowly weed of the problem.

Fuck that just makes too much sense for the government to do that!

What happens to Afliac??? Aren't they a company that offers health care at no cost to the employer?

Doors Done Rite
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post #46 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 03:56 PM
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Here are a few of mine:

Why would people who don't pay for insurance now (like homeless, or the un/under-employed, or the mentally incompetent, etc) start paying for insurance after the bill?

How can insurance be cheaper for me and my family (like Obama and the Dems claim it will) after the insurance company is forced to insure the smokers, poor eaters, people who don't take care of themselves, etc who get into the pools at much lower rates?

How do the insurance companies pay for the very sick people while being forced to accept them?

The reality is that not everyone can pay a low monthly premium and get millions of dollars of insurance coverage while paying the same rate as the others who do not have the major medical issues. Imagine any business being regulated to have to include customers that are costing the business money and not making the business a legitimate profit.

This socialized system can only be sustained by a not for profit entity, and that is the government. Who else can run a business in the red and keep it open? The government at every level does it routinely.

This is the first step towards complete government control of health care and unless we get it repealed, we will all suffer terribly.

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #47 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 04:03 PM
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the point is,we just alowed this goverment to shit on our constitution and they will do it again because we are a bunch of complacent idiots.

shit like this hc bill are not going to stop until we kick all these fuckers out.doesnt matter if dem or rep. the shit will keep coming.only way to stop it is a serious, "REVOLUTION".most likely a bloody one.do you honestly think this us goverment will stop taking from us and forcing shit down our throats?

voting doesn't work.
dem./rep doesn't work
eliminating the problem is the only thing that will work.
we have alot of treasonist mother fuckers in power.we need to flush washington.
any other ideas?

RON PAUL '08
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post #48 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 04:17 PM
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How about the fact that the IRS will be the primary agency enforcing the new rules that we all must follow?

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #49 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 04:55 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
How about the fact that the IRS will be the primary agency enforcing the new rules that we all must follow?
yeh,i can't wait to hear ALL the IRS stories.

RON PAUL '08
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post #50 of 63 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Got5onIt View Post
six figure salary, eh? Is that mainly commission from home sales? Just guessing by your screenname.....
so because I have a six figure income it has to be from some means other than something not on my back? Good grief.



Quote:
Originally Posted by davbarcus
Myth 1: This is a universal health care bill.

Fact: The bill is neither universal health care nor universal health insurance. According to the Congressional Budget Office:

Total uninsured in 2019 with no bill: 54 million

Total uninsured in 2019 with Senate bill: 24 million.....

Thanks...I had seen this (the whole myth thing) before but lost track of it.....

"Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine." Elvis Presley

Dana
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