At what point will patriotism equal domestic terrorism? - DFWstangs Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 09:38 PM Thread Starter
v2004 rebooted.
 
talisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 30,955
Question At what point will patriotism equal domestic terrorism?

Or vice versa depending on your viewpoint. Just for arguements sake of course.
talisman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 09:42 PM
not exclude
 
exlude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,838
I wonder this regularly. I definetely don't support hurting innocent people, but at what line do we define innocent people? This really made me wonder with the guy in Austin vs. the IRS. I wholly think what he did what was wrong, but I'm sure in his mind he was acting on patriotic duty vs. the enemy/government. And hell, I agree with a few things he believed in. In all honesty I don't know how I could ever participate in a revolution of any sort or how it would realistically come about, but it's interesting to wonder about.
exlude is offline  
post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 09:49 PM Thread Starter
v2004 rebooted.
 
talisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 30,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude View Post
I wonder this regularly. I definetely don't support hurting innocent people, but at what line do we define innocent people? This really made me wonder with the guy in Austin vs. the IRS. I wholly think what he did what was wrong, but I'm sure in his mind he was acting on patriotic duty vs. the enemy/government. And hell, I agree with a few things he believed in. In all honesty I don't know how I could ever participate in a revolution of any sort or how it would realistically come about, but it's interesting to wonder about.


I was really conflicted when that happened; still am in fact, which is why I don't think I made any posts on the subject. I almost started this thread about 6 months ago, but after today, well, fuck it. I'll probably end up on a list somewhere...
talisman is offline  
 
post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 10:07 PM
Aspiring Bean Counter.
 
Slowhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Howard Johnson's Earthlight Room
Posts: 12,279
That's an interesting question you raise. The only answer I have is that we'll probably know it when we see it.

Slowhand is offline  
post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 10:29 PM
PAN
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under a rock
Posts: 20,154
I would wager that it already does, as so many of the tenets this country was founded can already be labeled as such.

When I look at my own views on what patriotism means, balance them against the values that were held so highly when this country was founded (they are one and the same imo, fwiw), then compare them with the direction that this country is seemingly headed, I realize that I could be quite easily be branded/labeled a terrorist.

Wonder what our forefathers would say if they were labeled as terrorists? Wait, weren't they, in so many words?
Fox466 is offline  
post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
v2004 rebooted.
 
talisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 30,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox466 View Post
I would wager that it already does, as so many of the tenets this country was founded can already be labeled as such.

When I look at my own views on what patriotism means, balance them against the values that were held so highly when this country was founded (they are one and the same imo, fwiw), then compare them with the direction that this country is seemingly headed, I realize that I could be quite easily be branded/labeled a terrorist.

Wonder what our forefathers would say if they were labeled as terrorists? Wait, weren't they, in so many words?


Basicly, yes. The DoI actively encourages us to rise up and overthrow the government if it ignores the will of the people or becomes tyrannis. I'm not going to sit here and say it is going to happen, but I can't recall any other time in my life where I've seen our country just outright give its' near entire populace the finger.
talisman is offline  
post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 10:34 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hell
Posts: 562
Ask the dude who flew his plane into the Austin IRS building.

2003 White GT
Current N/A Best
[email protected] (2-7-09)

BBk Headers and X-Pipe
Mac ProDumps
4.10 Gears, Eaton Diff and 31 spline axles
Diet (currently 2885 without me in it)
Everything else stock (paper filter even)

03WhiteGT is offline  
post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 10:36 PM
not exclude
 
exlude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03WhiteGT View Post
Ask the dude who flew his plane into the Austin IRS building.
And we're back at post #2.
exlude is offline  
post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 10:59 PM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude View Post
I wonder this regularly. I definetely don't support hurting innocent people, but at what line do we define innocent people? This really made me wonder with the guy in Austin vs. the IRS. I wholly think what he did what was wrong, but I'm sure in his mind he was acting on patriotic duty vs. the enemy/government. And hell, I agree with a few things he believed in. In all honesty I don't know how I could ever participate in a revolution of any sort or how it would realistically come about, but it's interesting to wonder about.
I agree with what you said. I tried saying something similar after the plane incident and people tried to grill me for it. I guess I didn't do a very good job of saying it. People reach the end of their rope and they no longer think logically. The plane pilot was lashing out at the IRS with the biggest impact he could make. We're going to begin to see a lot more incidents like this in the future and every little incidence is going to be scrutinized and labeled as terrorism until the spineless people are hollaring for our guns and rights are removed.
line-em-up is offline  
post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 11:09 PM
makin' bacon
 
Stevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Longview,TX
Posts: 5,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox466 View Post
I would wager that it already does,
\

This. I'm sure many, many people in our country are already tagged as possible future domestic terrorists (probably a few in this thread).

Stevo

Animal whisperings

Intoxicate the night

Hypnotize the desperate

Slow motion light

Wash away into the rain

Blood, milk and sky


Stevo is offline  
post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-22-2010, 11:19 PM
PAN
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under a rock
Posts: 20,154
I'm tagged and ready to lay waste.

Sure wish we had a leader to step forth and lead the charge.
Fox466 is offline  
post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 12:38 AM
Lifer
 
jnobles06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lake Worthless
Posts: 2,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox466 View Post
I'm tagged and ready to lay waste.

Sure wish we had a leader to step forth and lead the charge.
thats the problem, the organizational factor. anyone who stands up to lead will just be labled by the govt. as crazy, have them killed, or both; then all their credibility to the general public goes out the window.

1995 Cobra

8.8 1/8th mile on stock motor (225k miles) w/exhaust 3.73's and drag radials.
jnobles06 is offline  
post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:04 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: tail end of where the hell are we road
Posts: 807
you can raise all the hell you want, tear up all the gov shit you can find but when you harm another person you just crossed the line .

" dont mess with the porchdog........ he bites "
Bubbaearl is offline  
post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:19 AM
Factory Issue
 
Yale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Shippensburg, PA
Posts: 12,295
A direct martial confrontation would have a very low chance of succeeding. What's needed is a large, grassroots movement to really change America. That would bring a level of subtlety that would more or less leave those in the government powerless to stop it. The teaparty movement is interesting, but extremely flawed idealogically. If the system we have is failing to the point that we need to scrap it, why not start from scratch?

Give me a dollar.
Yale is offline  
post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:32 AM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbaearl View Post
you can raise all the hell you want, tear up all the gov shit you can find but when you harm another person you just crossed the line .
If you don't get rid of the problem, then your just wasting your time.
line-em-up is offline  
post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 07:36 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Ft Worth
Posts: 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox466 View Post
I'm tagged and ready to lay waste.

Sure wish we had a leader to step forth and lead the charge.
We do.... Ted Nugent... And I bet in giving time he will stand up and ask us(the people) to stand with him.
big pappa pump is offline  
post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:07 AM
dead
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 14,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by talisman View Post
I was really conflicted when that happened; still am in fact, which is why I don't think I made any posts on the subject. I almost started this thread about 6 months ago, but after today, well, fuck it. I'll probably end up on a list somewhere...
i think everyone venturing into this thread are on the same chapter, if not the same page.
momo stallion is offline  
post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 08:58 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: tail end of where the hell are we road
Posts: 807
you want to change it vote in november. if the dems get their ass kicked you can bet the rep will walk a little softer. all this talk of armed confrontation is bs. it will never happen in this country. that is what separates us from the rest. the dumb fucks who voted for obama and the ones who wasted votes on those without hope of winning caused this shit. now it is time to get out the vote to remove the dems in congress and senate. hopefully this mess can be reversed somewhat.

" dont mess with the porchdog........ he bites "
Bubbaearl is offline  
post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:11 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hell
Posts: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude View Post
And we're back at post #2.
LOL...... Sorry, drunk Iphone post....

2003 White GT
Current N/A Best
[email protected] (2-7-09)

BBk Headers and X-Pipe
Mac ProDumps
4.10 Gears, Eaton Diff and 31 spline axles
Diet (currently 2885 without me in it)
Everything else stock (paper filter even)

03WhiteGT is offline  
post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:26 AM
Banned
 
DOHCTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Waco
Posts: 5,539
Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
DOHCTR is offline  
post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 09:36 AM
BELIEVE, IT'S TIME!!!!
 
Who Needs 8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: A little here, a little there . . .
Posts: 14,997
Wait, wait, wait . . . I thought this board agreed that the guy who crashed the plane in Austin was a Communist Liberal????


Who Needs 8 is offline  
post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:32 AM
Lifer
 
VETTKLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: TX Panhandle
Posts: 1,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who Needs 8 View Post
Wait, wait, wait . . . I thought this board agreed that the guy who crashed the plane in Austin was a Communist Liberal????


In your attempt of smartassery, you've touched on a good point...that guy was an asshole quitter that believed he was entitled to live a successful life without paying his taxes. A false sense of entitlement breeds terrorist traits.

OP, et al...Don't believe the hype that the liberal media portrays everyone against the current administration is a soon-to-be domestic terrorist.

Keep in mind that the same liberal media appeases types of citizens such as the ones that burned down Los Angeles in 1992, the Watts Riots, etc. Liberal media glorify any wrongdoings of a group of people that believe they're entitled to anything and everything, via welfare, social services (E.G. "Obama's gonna pay my gas bills, my house payment, my car payment...)

Whereas the typical TEA Party goer has a strong belief in what this country was founded upon. Obviously, the liberal media is going to frown upon such a thing and attempt to demonize such a person or group in any way,shape or fashion. Hence, the ideology of a patriot becoming a domestic terrorist, hurting his/her country, rather than helping it grow stronger.


Our patriotism may already be demonized by assholes like Chris Matthews, Keith Olberman and his husband Rachael Maddow, but make no mistake. The ones they appeal to...the ones that think that America owes them anything and everything, just because...Those are the ones to watch like a hawk for terrorist traits.

I think the only terrorism that's going to occur from patriotism is the look of terror on a shitload of state representatives when they lose their fucking jobs for not listening to their constituents.

VETTKLR is offline  
post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 12:39 PM
Lifer
 
MR TINFOIL HAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NAU
Posts: 4,982
I think we are already there, and if we tried a revolution it would be shown on tv as domestic terrorists, not patriots fighting for freedom.. The fucked up thing is people don't realize we are holding this house of cards together. If we wanted to make the house crumble it wouldn't be that hard. We'd need every single person to take their money out of banks, and everyone forget about April 15th. I think they'd get the message real quick with those two scenarios. I know it's not convenient but I've made it for years now without a bank account, and I will never have another one.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
MR TINFOIL HAT is offline  
post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 01:07 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ft worth
Posts: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by talisman View Post
Or vice versa depending on your viewpoint. Just for arguements sake of course.
I believe Janet Napolitano (Sec. of Homeland Security) already did in a memo leak last year.
Please forgive if someone has already brought this up.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy." Winston Churchill
razrbak is offline  
post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 01:09 PM
Resident Epicurean
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Irving
Posts: 23,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by razrbak View Post
I believe Janet Napolitano (Sec. of Homeland Security) already did in a memo leak last year.
Please forgive if someone has already brought this up.
I was just about to post, that if you are a conservative soldier home from the war, you're already a domestic terrorist. Don't blame me, that is straight from the horse's mouth.
bcoop is offline  
post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 02:04 PM
Worship me
 
AL P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 34,345
The leftists who seek power in the dem party try to make this association as much as they can. Outside of remote acts, we have always been a country where people can disagree without killing each other. If that changes then you will see more people labeled as "terrorists".

I honestly don't think it will come to that. We have too many people in this country that understand what the leftists are doing. You'll see a landslide election in November that destroys the democrats for years to come. There are a lot of idiots in this country but there are also a lot of good people who don't easily forget when you piss on them. The poll on the MSNBC website illustrates this perfectly. I can't wait to see Obama's approval ratings in the coming months, he is going to set a new record for the downside.

"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." - Ed Howdershelt
AL P is offline  
post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 01:00 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The hooker Hotel
Posts: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by talisman View Post
Or vice versa depending on your viewpoint. Just for arguements sake of course.

Starting on 4/19/1995 it has been called domestic terrorism ever since.
svo855 is offline  
post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-25-2010, 07:05 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
\

This. I'm sure many, many people in our country are already tagged as possible future domestic terrorists (probably a few in this thread).

Stevo


Wait, not yet...... OK now.



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
tazz007 is offline  
post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-25-2010, 11:21 PM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P View Post
The leftists who seek power in the dem party try to make this association as much as they can. Outside of remote acts, we have always been a country where people can disagree without killing each other. If that changes then you will see more people labeled as "terrorists".

I honestly don't think it will come to that. We have too many people in this country that understand what the leftists are doing. You'll see a landslide election in November that destroys the democrats for years to come. There are a lot of idiots in this country but there are also a lot of good people who don't easily forget when you piss on them. The poll on the MSNBC website illustrates this perfectly. I can't wait to see Obama's approval ratings in the coming months, he is going to set a new record for the downside.
I bet in the next few months, there will be a BIG push to pardon the illegals to increase Obomu's voter base before elections.
line-em-up is offline  
post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 12:11 AM
Lifer
 
Trip McNeely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 29,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by line-em-up View Post
I bet in the next few months, there will be a BIG push to pardon the illegals to increase Obomu's voter base before elections.
Whoops, too late.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...eprint/?page=1

Quote:
President Obama gave a thumbs up Thursday to the outline of a plan to legalize illegal immigrants and create a flow of low-skilled foreign workers for the future, saying the immigration bill being worked on by a Republican and a Democrat is "promising."

In their broad blueprint, Sens. Charles E. Schumer, New York Democrat, and Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican, call for illegal immigrants to be put on a path to citizenship, offer green cards to keep high-skilled foreign university graduates and would create a temporary program for low-skilled workers, with some also getting the chance to become citizens.

The senators also proposed to turn all Social Security cards into tamper-proof IDs to be checked by employers when they are about to hire a worker. The cards would include biometric information designed to prevent counterfeiting -- but the senators said the information would not be stored in a government database.

"I congratulate Senators Schumer and Graham for their leadership, and pledge to do everything in my power to forge a bipartisan consensus this year on this important issue so we can continue to move forward on comprehensive immigration reform," Mr. Obama said in a statement soon after the two senators published their blueprint in a column submitted to The Washington Post.

The carefully orchestrated rollout came just three days before immigrant-rights advocates expect at least 50,000 supporters to rally and march in Washington, D.C., calling for Congress to act. The organizers of the rally had met with Mr. Obama last week and told him he needed to embrace a bill or else the thousands of marchers would be told that he had failed to live up to his promises on this issue.

But the outline is just a first step in what's still a very rocky legislative path.

Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, the top Republican on the House Judiciary Committee, said flatly that it can't pass.

"The bill doesn't have a prayer, because the American people oppose rewarding lawbreakers, which then encourages illegal immigration," he said. "Allowing millions of illegal immigrants to stay and take jobs away from citizens is like giving a burglar a key to the house. Illegal immigrants should return home and play by the rules like millions of legal immigrants."

And adding to the bill's troubles, Mr. Graham has warned Democrats and Mr. Obama that if they use the budget process to push health care through Congress -- known as reconciliation -- that could poison any chance for bipartisan cooperation on immigration.

Also, the blueprint is broad, and doesn't delve into many key details that could still split the coalition of labor, business, religious and ethnic groups that have joined together to try to pass a bill.

Still, Ali Noorani, executive director of the National Immigration Forum, said backers have now checked off the first several steps on their to-do list: The senators have published their outline, Mr. Obama endorsed it, and earlier this week Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick J. Leahy, Vermont Democrat, said he was looking forward to moving a bill through his committee.

Mr. Noorani said the next challenges are to see if more Republicans will jump onboard the effort, and to get commitments from House Democrats to move legislation through their chamber.

"We have a bipartisan framework that is going to define a piece of legislation. From here onward, it's a political and legislative battle to get the 60 votes we need [to pass the Senate] and the 218 in the House," Mr. Noorani said.

Congress last took up immigration in 2007, when President George W. Bush joined with Democratic leaders to write a bill. But a bipartisan majority of senators joined a filibuster to block the bill.

The supporters of the 2007 effort concluded that Americans didn't trust the government to secure the borders and enforce the laws, even as they were offering legalization, particularly since illegal immigration has only grown since a 1986 amnesty.

To combat that impression, Mr. Graham and Mr. Schumer said they'll include new enforcement at both the border and in the country's interior.

"Once it is clear that in 20 years our nation will not again confront the specter of another 11 million people coming here illegally, Americans will embrace more welcoming immigration policies," they wrote.

They have been working on the proposal for months, sorting out competing interests from business groups, labor unions and immigration advocates. They said their plan has four key components: a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, a program to let in future workers, the improvements in enforcement and the biometric Social Security cards to help employers weed out illegal workers.

The senators said their legalization would be a "tough but fair" program that would require illegal immigrants to admit they broke the law and make them perform community service and pay a fine.

Illegal immigrants would also have to demonstrate they are proficient at English and pass background checks to gain citizenship.

The plan would offer permanent legal status to foreign students who earn a post-graduate degree from an American university, and creates a future program for low-skilled workers. Businesses could only hire them if no American worker is available, and the number allowed would fluctuate depending on the U.S. economy's needs. Workers who have kept jobs for a long time and have proved valuable members of their community could earn permanent legal status.

CANADIANS = DOUCHERS

Trip McNeely is offline  
post #31 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 05:52 AM
Rockin' da fumanchu
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the straight and narrow,stumbling at best, only by Gods grace.
Posts: 7,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip McNeely View Post
Make it stop!





Listen to my buddy, Jeff Bolton, from 6-9 AM Mon-Fri.

Obamanomics = Trickle Up Poverty

Think you need to format/reinstall your OS(XP), read this first.
Tx Redneck is offline  
post #32 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 10:51 AM
Lifer
 
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: DFW
Posts: 13,083
any president who pushes to help illegal immigrants is not looking out for the USA and needs to go. we are giving this country away what a joke

98 Brokra
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome