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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-10-2010, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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IRS too harsh on taxpayers

Taxpayer advocate to IRS: Don't lien too heavily
By Jeanne Sahadi, senior writerJanuary 7, 2010: 7:47 AM ET


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The tax man has gotten a lot more aggressive in slapping liens on taxpayers who are seriously delinquent in their payments.

In fact, the Internal Revenue Service issued 475% more liens last year than it did in 1999.

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But it hasn't been doing so judiciously, which is causing unnecessary harm to some taxpayers and, ironically, to federal coffers, according to national taxpayer advocate Nina Olson.

"Taxpayers are being greatly harmed for very little benefit to the government," Olson told CNNMoney.

Olson is a government official whose job is to highlight for Congress the most serious problems facing taxpayers. Lien issuance makes her top 5 list.

In her annual report to Congress, released on Wednesday, Olson says the IRS must do more to assess whether the benefits of a tax lien outweigh its harm to the taxpayer.

The IRS imposes a lien on a person's property to ensure the government is first in line to be paid if a delinquent taxpayer sells or refinances property. The lien is issued when an agent determines a taxpayer can't pay up.

But IRS agents only take into account a person's income and expenses and not other debts and assets when sizing up his ability to pay, according to Olson. Then, the decision to issue the lien is typically not reviewed by higher-ups at the agency.

"Employees should look at all the facts and circumstances," said Olson.

That's because issuing a lien against someone who can't pay and who doesn't have any assets can create a "lose-lose" proposition for both the taxpayer and for the government, she noted in her report.

Here's why: A lien slams a taxpayer's credit score and can remain on a credit report anywhere from 10 years to 15 years or more, depending on the policy of the credit bureau.

That means it harms a person's ability to get an affordable loan. And it can hurt his chances of getting a job or an insurance policy since employers and insurers often check credit history. So potentially his costs go up while his earning potential goes down along with his potential to be a source of tax revenue for Uncle Sam in the future.

Worst case scenario: It may mean the taxpayer ends up needing to tap Uncle Sam for cash.

"If the filing of a tax lien drives up a taxpayer's costs and renders him or her unemployed or underemployed, the government may be forced to make outlays in the form of unemployment benefits, food stamps and the like," Olson wrote.

To measure the effectiveness of liens in collecting revenue, Olson's office tracked the cases of 270,000 taxpayers who first had a tax balance due in 2002 and on whom the IRS later put a tax lien.

One of the findings: Lien issuance doesn't boost revenue collection.

Last year the IRS issued 966,000 liens, up from 168,000 in 1999. During the same decade, however, the money the agency collected in delinquent cases fell by 7.4% after adjusting for inflation.

Another finding from the study: In many cases where money is recovered, it's not because of the lien.

More than 80% of the money the IRS collected was the result of of other measures - such as the withholding of a taxpayer's refunds.

The IRS contested Olson's finding. It said the study's methodology - for instance, only considering payments that had been coded as a lien payment - "limits the ability to draw meaningful conclusions" since the study ended up excluding 56% of the payments made.

In addition, liens can spur taxpayers to pay up, the agency said.

"Taxpayer actions such as making installment payments, filing an offer in compromise or paying the liability in full may be motivated" by the filing of a lien or even the threat of one, the IRS said.

And it did not agree with a recommendation that employees get managerial approval for liens in cases where the taxpayer has no current assets.

The story isn't over. Olson said she would continue to press her recommendations with the IRS. And key lawmakers are already weighing in.

"I worry that the IRS is reverting to some old habits to taxpayers' detriment," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, said in a statement. "The IRS has to use its discretion to determine when liens are the best course to improve tax collection and when they are just a knee-jerk enforcement tactic that will do more harm than good." To top of page
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-10-2010, 09:56 PM
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Must watch for every tax paying American http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0303867390173# There is no law, just a lot of people imprisoned under the supreme court ruling that they don't have to prove the law exists. Watch and wonder how this is possible in so called free America. Pack a gun and pay no tax!

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.

Last edited by MR TINFOIL HAT; 01-10-2010 at 10:10 PM.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-10-2010, 10:09 PM
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By always pressing more taxes, causing massive losses of jobs, placing liens on people which means the items mentioned in the story, and engaging in myriad other acts which lessen the depth of our personal coffers, is our government continuing its efforts to widen the gap between the 01WCs of the world and the rest of us?
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR TINFOIL HAT View Post
Must watch for every tax paying American http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0303867390173# There is no law, just a lot of people imprisoned under the supreme court ruling that they don't have to prove the law exists. Watch and wonder how this is possible in so called free America. Pack a gun and pay no tax!
I have been watching the video so I went looking for the laws that require us to pay income taxes, found this. What do you think about this?

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg.../JustNoLaw.htm

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg...taxes/code.htm

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

"A Republic, if you can keep it"
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www.blowoutcongress.com

Last edited by slow06; 01-11-2010 at 09:47 AM.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by slow06 View Post
I have been watching the video so I went looking for the laws that require us to pay income taxes, found this. What do you think about this?

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg.../JustNoLaw.htm

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsieg...taxes/code.htm
I think it's bullshit. The courts never let anyone present all that needs to be shown to explain it. Funny how that works. Here's someone that is fighting it and can explain what they do to suppress any evidence and claims that prove the tax law is a sham. http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp
Did you see in the documentary where he gets the Supervisor at the IRS to do an interview, and then schools him on the laws and that the 16th amend really was never ratified properly like they claim?

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.

Last edited by MR TINFOIL HAT; 01-11-2010 at 10:11 AM.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MR TINFOIL HAT View Post
I think it's bullshit. The courts never let anyone present all that needs to be shown to explain it. Funny how that works. Here's someone that is fighting it and can explain what they do to suppress any evidence and claims that prove the tax law is a sham. http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp
Did you see in the documentary where he gets the Supervisor at the IRS to do an interview, and then schools him on the laws and that the 16th amend really was never ratified properly like they claim?
I am getting farther along in the video and he kind of answers my question.

Bottom line, does anybody here believe in this enough to up your deductions and not file a Tax Return? (I am assuming that would be the best way to not pay taxes).

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

"A Republic, if you can keep it"
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Hell, I haven't filed taxes since 04. I call them every year just to mess with them, it's fun
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 09:26 PM
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I am getting farther along in the video and he kind of answers my question.

Bottom line, does anybody here believe in this enough to up your deductions and not file a Tax Return? (I am assuming that would be the best way to not pay taxes).


In my view this is the ONLY way that we can actually revolt against our out of control government. If we ALL adopt this stance and change our deductions we would have a shot. Can't go after us all and for damned sure can't lock us all up.

Anyone feel like playing Wolverines and Douchebags?
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 11:00 PM
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Hell, I haven't filed taxes since 04. I call them every year just to mess with them, it's fun
Is that because you are playing hooky or because you are living off the government tit? (Not being an ass, I seem to remember reading that you were living on disability from the military???)

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In my view this is the ONLY way that we can actually revolt against our out of control government. If we ALL adopt this stance and change our deductions we would have a shot. Can't go after us all and for damned sure can't lock us all up.

Anyone feel like playing Wolverines and Douchebags?
That is what I was thinking. Although now that I think about it I can't imagine why anyone would straight up say it on the board. No need to advertise.

Another thought, TFH you might have some fun with this one:
If we all took out money out of the bank wouldn't that cripple the banking system run by corrupt bankers?

I'm pretty sure I could live without checks and online bill pay because I (think) I can send money orders for any bills I may get. I get crappy interest from my crappy free account, and I have plenty of places to hide/safely store the cash. Keep 1 credit card for emergencies, live within my means (cash only).

(Disclaimer - this is a half-assed idea that I haven't had time to think through thoroughly. There may be some glaring problems so feel free to point them out.)

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

"A Republic, if you can keep it"
- Benjamin Franklin

The way to peaceably remove elected officials who deviate from the constitution of the United States of America...
www.blowoutcongress.com
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 06:56 AM
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If you don't discuss it, you can't grow and orchestrate it.


Spread the concept!
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, it's because my money is disability based. However, every April 15th, my birthday, I call and say "Hey, I have a question...I haven't paid since 04...is this an issue?" and listen to them fall all over themselves. It's turned into the Super Bowl for me
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 09:23 AM
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Is that because you are playing hooky or because you are living off the government tit? (Not being an ass, I seem to remember reading that you were living on disability from the military???)



That is what I was thinking. Although now that I think about it I can't imagine why anyone would straight up say it on the board. No need to advertise.

Another thought, TFH you might have some fun with this one:
If we all took out money out of the bank wouldn't that cripple the banking system run by corrupt bankers?

I'm pretty sure I could live without checks and online bill pay because I (think) I can send money orders for any bills I may get. I get crappy interest from my crappy free account, and I have plenty of places to hide/safely store the cash. Keep 1 credit card for emergencies, live within my means (cash only).

(Disclaimer - this is a half-assed idea that I haven't had time to think through thoroughly. There may be some glaring problems so feel free to point them out.)

In regards to the banking system, if the health care bill does get signed into law, I'll shut down my bank account and go to cash and carry. Giving the feds lawful access to my finances is not going to happen. I can pay cash for pretty much every monthly obligation.

What we are seeing in this country is convenience over riding liberty. People don't want to be put out, so they put up.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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