I think that they did the "public insurance" option wrong - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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I think that they did the "public insurance" option wrong

This could have been such a great deal for taxpayers. Having the full weight of the US government involved in negotiating contracts could have knocked the bottom out of prices for medicine and hospital care, and thus lowered insurance costs and medical costs across the board. Just the lower negotiated prices would have lowered the cost of healthcare without spending an additional penny in taxes for the plan.

If they would have only left it alone with just those provisions........

Instead, they decided to force people onto the plan using devious methods, and use non-negotiated prices so that the costs didn't change, and then they have penalties for the non purchase of insurance. And of course the inclusion of illegals and the hidden tax increases.

Perhaps some senators were in the pockets of the drug companies?

Idiots
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 10:13 PM
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you know it did not pass the senate, right?

NO NO NO, it should be DFWLS1's, CUMMINS, C6 VETTES.net
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 89gt-stanger View Post
you know it did not pass the senate, right?
Well, rightly so. Like I said I think that they screwed it up. It was a flawed bill.

The average senator is out of touch with the needs of the average american.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-29-2009, 11:46 PM
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Well, rightly so. Like I said I think that they screwed it up. It was a flawed bill.

The average senator is out of touch with the needs of the average american.
whenever you are filthy stinky rich and dont actually have to work you cant imagine someone not having a atleast a couple of grand in the bank. Yet these people think just like that, while the majority lives paycheck to paycheck. So yea, they are completely clueless.

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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whenever you are filthy stinky rich and dont actually have to work you cant imagine someone not having a atleast a couple of grand in the bank. Yet these people think just like that, while the majority lives paycheck to paycheck. So yea, they are completely clueless.
Yep. Try self employment. In addition to the self employment tax you get to pay (15%), the federal tax you get to pay (25-35%), and the state tax you get to pay (about 6-9% here in kalifornia) (thats about 50-60% of gross pay if you were keeping score), you get to pay for outrageous health insurance, or go without. They really soak the self employed.

The last quote I got was about $1200/month for a family of 4 with no significant health issues. Ridiculous. I see this as an area where the federal government could do something - by outlawing redlining and other illegal health insurance practices. IMO it will take getting senators out of the pockets of the healthcare industry before we'll ever see this legislation pass.

Anyway, it will eventually self correct. People will go to mexico to get procedures done that they cannot afford here (already happening). People will forego prescriptions (already happening) and people will forego procedures (already happening), and so on. Generic drugs are selling like popcorn, with wal marts $4 prescriptions. Eventually the insurance industry will weed out all of the unhealthy people as customers, and only healthy people will have health insurance. And since they won't be using it much, health industry profits will soar, while medical industry profits will flop.

What will happen at that point? I see an eventual consolidation in the medical industry simply to survive. With their high prices they are also opening the door for low cost medical businesses to open, exploiting that price gap, and providing a low cost service for the uninsured. You are already seeing this with the walk in clinics in wal mart. I also see the medical industry making moves to "go around" the health insurance companies. by establishing their own co-ops and so on.

In short, I believe that the health insurance industry is slowly pricing the US medical system out of reach for many, many US citizens, and a new low cost business model is slowly arising to replace the old model.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 03:35 PM
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Why do you trust that the government will stop once they get something under their control that you agree with? If they get control over something small, they will inevitably want more control, and then it will be something you disagree with.

They claimed it would not involve free choice abortions or illegal aliens getting health care, and we have proven that as a complete lie, so why trust them with anything?

If we get a government insurance plan there will be long waits for covered care and illegal clinics giving medical care to those who can afford immediate and expensive care. It has happened in every country that has government contolled health care.

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-30-2009, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Why do you trust that the government will stop once they get something under their control that you agree with? If they get control over something small, they will inevitably want more control, and then it will be something you disagree with.

They claimed it would not involve free choice abortions or illegal aliens getting health care, and we have proven that as a complete lie, so why trust them with anything?

If we get a government insurance plan there will be long waits for covered care and illegal clinics giving medical care to those who can afford immediate and expensive care. It has happened in every country that has government contolled health care.
I think you missed my point. I'm not advocating for the "public option" as was recently expressed in the health care bill (really bad idea!). What I think should have happened is that the government begin to compete with private insurers by issuing their own plan, and perhaps contracting with health providers for services, using their bargaining power to reduce costs. It would just be another option for people to choose from. Private health insurers would be forced to compete, and you'd see a lot of sudden cost cutting and better management of their business. Sort of like preferred pool for the health care industry, with lower prices. You'd have to figure out how to keep the government plan from driving private insurers out of business, but having such a plan out would put at least put some competition into healthcare insurance, and would help keep the insurers honest.

If the government oversteps their authority or engages in activities that you disagree with, you could simply switch to another carrier (and pay more).

However, it's all just a pipe dream, and a missed opportunity to really fix healthcare.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 01:20 PM
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Yep. Try self employment. In addition to the self employment tax you get to pay (15%), the federal tax you get to pay (25-35%), and the state tax you get to pay (about 6-9% here in kalifornia) (thats about 50-60% of gross pay if you were keeping score), you get to pay for outrageous health insurance, or go without. They really soak the self employed.

The last quote I got was about $1200/month for a family of 4 with no significant health issues. Ridiculous. I see this as an area where the federal government could do something - by outlawing redlining and other illegal health insurance practices. IMO it will take getting senators out of the pockets of the healthcare industry before we'll ever see this legislation pass.

Anyway, it will eventually self correct. People will go to mexico to get procedures done that they cannot afford here (already happening). People will forego prescriptions (already happening) and people will forego procedures (already happening), and so on. Generic drugs are selling like popcorn, with wal marts $4 prescriptions. Eventually the insurance industry will weed out all of the unhealthy people as customers, and only healthy people will have health insurance. And since they won't be using it much, health industry profits will soar, while medical industry profits will flop.

What will happen at that point? I see an eventual consolidation in the medical industry simply to survive. With their high prices they are also opening the door for low cost medical businesses to open, exploiting that price gap, and providing a low cost service for the uninsured. You are already seeing this with the walk in clinics in wal mart. I also see the medical industry making moves to "go around" the health insurance companies. by establishing their own co-ops and so on.

In short, I believe that the health insurance industry is slowly pricing the US medical system out of reach for many, many US citizens, and a new low cost business model is slowly arising to replace the old model.
You NEED to get with a good accountant and attorney and get you business incorporated or at least into an LLC or LLP. What ever fits your situation. You are leaving money "on the table" by not being proactive.

I am not a financial planner but you could get the health insurance as a part of the company offering it to the employee(you). That makes it a business expense. Lots of other ways to lower you taxable income that are business expenses.

Rich

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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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You NEED to get with a good accountant and attorney and get you business incorporated or at least into an LLC or LLP. What ever fits your situation. You are leaving money "on the table" by not being proactive.

I am not a financial planner but you could get the health insurance as a part of the company offering it to the employee(you). That makes it a business expense. Lots of other ways to lower you taxable income that are business expenses.
Yes, you are correct.

But that also means that I have to start keeping books and all of the million other things that you have to do (register with the state of texas, pay taxes on equipment used for the business, run a "payroll" for myself, keep up with depositing payroll taxes, keep up with asset depreciation, buy professional liability insurance, etc) when you run a business. A sole proprietorship is a lot easier, but it will cost me more.

Going to a LLC/LLP arrangement does provide a lot more protection for personal assets though, I will give you that.

Honestly, when I started this contracting gig I had no idea that it would go on and on, it was supposed to be a 6 month stepping stone between my old job which involved owning and running a 15 employee business and my future job, which hopefully WILL NOT BE owning another business.

I owned/ran my old business for 20 years and I got really burned out on that concept.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 05:46 PM
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Yes, you are correct.

But that also means that I have to start keeping books and all of the million other things that you have to do (register with the state of texas, pay taxes on equipment used for the business, run a "payroll" for myself, keep up with depositing payroll taxes, keep up with asset depreciation, buy professional liability insurance, etc) when you run a business. A sole proprietorship is a lot easier, but it will cost me more.

Going to a LLC/LLP arrangement does provide a lot more protection for personal assets though, I will give you that.

Honestly, when I started this contracting gig I had no idea that it would go on and on, it was supposed to be a 6 month stepping stone between my old job which involved owning and running a 15 employee business and my future job, which hopefully WILL NOT BE owning another business.

I owned/ran my old business for 20 years and I got really burned out on that concept.
There are plenty of places that will do all that and more. It does cost but as the adage goes ya gotta spend money to make money. How about someone who can do the actual labor you do to free you up for other things. Sounds like it is just another job with a lot of extra head aches.

Check out the Cash Flow Quadrant by R. Kyosaki Might help you to get out of the rat race.

The best think I did when I was running a business for my dad was to hire some good help. Freed me up to go get more business.

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
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How about someone who can do the actual labor you do to free you up for other things. Sounds like it is just another job with a lot of extra head aches.
I'm an IT architect working on a sql/.net/SOA application running in a posix environment on a HP nonstop system. There are very few of us around with that skillset.

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Freed me up to go get more business.
Great, now i have visions of our old general partner telling us to go out and "work our network" to find more business, and the scathing reviews he would hand out for not generating enough business. Nevermind the fact that i'm an engineer and I don't do sales or management, but he never grasped the difference. And I never got credit for the things that I did do well.

That is one of the reasons I wanted out of business ownership, the stress was just too much, and trying to be someone that i'm not made it far worse. You see i've been there and done that before, and i'm in no hurry to go back to it
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 07:32 PM
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Nevermind the fact that i'm an engineer and I don't do sales or management, but he never grasped the difference.
You said it all right there. Let me bow down to the almighty engineer. Dude, train somebody. You aren't the only person who can do what you do. If you are the smartest person you employ, you aren't doing it to its fullest. In case you aren't aware, there are people out there that are smarter than you. Not bashing, just pointing out fact.

I stand by my advice. What you have is a ball and chain not a business.

Rich

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 08:03 PM
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I'm kind of interested in a privatized non-profit system, like Switzerland's.

Give me a dollar.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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You said it all right there. Let me bow down to the almighty engineer. Dude, train somebody. You aren't the only person who can do what you do. If you are the smartest person you employ, you aren't doing it to its fullest. In case you aren't aware, there are people out there that are smarter than you. Not bashing, just pointing out fact.

I stand by my advice. What you have is a ball and chain not a business.
Well, I like my ball and chain. I just need to work on getting some more tax deductions. I may look at a LLC/LLP later on, but right now I just want to work for awhile and be free of the 20 years of crap that I just got out of.

My point is that some people are better at managing things, and some people are better at designing things, and so on. Trying to make a salesman out of an engineer, or trying to make an engineer out of a manager - well, good luck with that. It's like trying to make a football coach out of jerry jones.

Train someone for what I do? How do you train someone to have 25 years of relevant IT experience? As an architect, a lot of my decisions are made using my years of experience and knowledge of what works, and what does not work. You cant "train" that into someone. You can't "buy" that experience. It comes from years of attending the school of hard knocks.

Do I know it all? No, not by a long shot. Am I good at what I do? I think so, and my customers think so, which is the situation I usually find myself in. I may not be the smartest person out there (as you so graciously pointed out), but I still manage to stay employed.

Just pointing out a fact
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 10:01 AM
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MY Opionion : I did not read all the posts above FYI:

1. Government SHOULD NOT BE IN HEALTHCARE AT ALL. Look at Canada, they are running here for healthcare because they can't do it right. Look at VA Hospitals. Vets only go there for a LAST FUCKING RESORT.

2. Look at Social Security, its fucking dying. Government run pension is going to be broke soon.

3. Look at the Post office, its fucking dying. Government run shipping company is failing.

4. Look at the Bailouts. Save big business but leave the tax payers high and dry. Why not have the government talk to the FUCKING MEDIA and have them tone down the "Cry Wolf Syndrome". The media cries wolf enough, people do exactly what they want. The fucking recession was started by the liberal media trying to take the sails out of the republican party. Remember the saying, are you better off than you were 4 (or 8) years ago? We are a capitalist society. If you run a business into the ground, it should go bankrupt. GM and Chrysler would have been A LOT better off going into bankruptcy than take the bailout..... Now they are going to pay by the government running what type of cars they can build.

Here's the BIG REASON:

Do you want the government to control what banks you can use, what cars you can buy, what healthcare you can use, what company you can use to ship things, and what retirement package you can have?

Um.... Sounds scary to me.

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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 06:35 PM
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Well, I like my ball and chain. I just need to work on getting some more tax deductions. I may look at a LLC/LLP later on, but right now I just want to work for awhile and be free of the 20 years of crap that I just got out of.

My point is that some people are better at managing things, and some people are better at designing things, and so on. Trying to make a salesman out of an engineer, or trying to make an engineer out of a manager - well, good luck with that. It's like trying to make a football coach out of jerry jones.

Train someone for what I do? How do you train someone to have 25 years of relevant IT experience? As an architect, a lot of my decisions are made using my years of experience and knowledge of what works, and what does not work. You cant "train" that into someone. You can't "buy" that experience. It comes from years of attending the school of hard knocks.

Do I know it all? No, not by a long shot. Am I good at what I do? I think so, and my customers think so, which is the situation I usually find myself in. I may not be the smartest person out there (as you so graciously pointed out), but I still manage to stay employed.

Just pointing out a fact
I'm glad we have the facts straight.

OK, so you are the only one who can do what you do. Hire someone to do the other ancillary tasks that can be done by others.

Everything you do should be a 'writeoff'. If it has any remote relation to you making money in your "business" it needs to be used as a business expense.
I am glad you are employed and paying taxes. How else am I going to collect my food stamps and welfare.

Rich

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 08:04 PM
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The best think I did when I was running a business for my dad was to hire some good help. Freed me up to go get more business.

Nice! The kid with the silver spoon in his mouth is trying to lecture MikeyB...

Dipshit. Do you have any idea what Mike has accomplished? Umm, no. You're trying to pass judgement on a couple statements, which illustrates quite well your ignorance...
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 09:22 PM
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I think you missed my point. I'm not advocating for the "public option" as was recently expressed in the health care bill (really bad idea!). What I think should have happened is that the government begin to compete with private insurers by issuing their own plan, and perhaps contracting with health providers for services, using their bargaining power to reduce costs. It would just be another option for people to choose from. Private health insurers would be forced to compete, and you'd see a lot of sudden cost cutting and better management of their business. Sort of like preferred pool for the health care industry, with lower prices. You'd have to figure out how to keep the government plan from driving private insurers out of business, but having such a plan out would put at least put some competition into healthcare insurance, and would help keep the insurers honest.

If the government oversteps their authority or engages in activities that you disagree with, you could simply switch to another carrier (and pay more).

However, it's all just a pipe dream, and a missed opportunity to really fix healthcare.
I guess I missed your response.

The problem I have with the government getting involved is that the government is the big dog of all companies. They have tax money guaranteed and they can act like a business in some ways, but surely not when it comes to revenue. The governments revenue is guaranteed and it makes for a bad business model.

I see your point but you are trusting the government to not continue to grow and fight fairly, they won't. They will run their insurance operation in the red and then no company will be able to compete. The insurance companies will go under and then we will only have the government.

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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2009, 08:14 AM
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Nice! The kid with the silver spoon in his mouth is trying to lecture MikeyB...

Dipshit. Do you have any idea what Mike has accomplished? Umm, no. You're trying to pass judgement on a couple statements, which illustrates quite well your ignorance...
Hey chief, I was just throwing out some free advise, It's worth what it costs.

I'm glad Mike does well. I hope he continues to. This isn't a pissing match. Just trying to help him and his business "be all it can be". I have a few years of experience, too.

Rich

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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2009, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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Me and TexasT have swapped PMs and all is good.
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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2009, 09:25 PM
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Sorry your having a hard time. Wish I could help. I.T., just is not my thing.

How ever. I can point out something to the original posters subject.

Why are they messing with health care?

Well lets see, the AMA has had a hand in getting laws passed that restrict insurance company's from offering their services across State lines, (this does not promote competition, what happens to prices when there is limited competition?), they have also limited what a RN can do, so now the Doctors have to do it, and Doctors charge more right, and limited what a nurse mad's can do. And there is a hole slew of restrictions that all of them have helped drive the cost of everything up. So what does this mean.... It means the feds have slowly created this problem, and now they want to fix it?

They know full well what is really wrong. So why do they want to step in and take over? Control and money, pure and simple.



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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2009, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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MikeB.
Sorry your having a hard time. Wish I could help. I.T., just is not my thing.

How ever. I can point out something to the original posters subject.

Why are they messing with health care?

Well lets see, the AMA has had a hand in getting laws passed that restrict insurance company's from offering their services across State lines, (this does not promote competition, what happens to prices when there is limited competition?), they have also limited what a RN can do, so now the Doctors have to do it, and Doctors charge more right, and limited what a nurse mad's can do. And there is a hole slew of restrictions that all of them have helped drive the cost of everything up. So what does this mean.... It means the feds have slowly created this problem, and now they want to fix it?

They know full well what is really wrong. So why do they want to step in and take over? Control and money, pure and simple.
Like you said, the fix is probably pretty simple, and doesn't cost bazillians of dollars. Change some legislation and most of the problems will go away. Use the government's purchasing position to negotiate lower costs on drugs and services (hell, they need to do this with medicare anyway) instead of the current arrangement, which protects drugmaker's profits.

Instead, we'll get a bloated bill that will cost us a lot more money going forward, for less service, and senators & congressmen's bank accounts will be filled.

You know what happens when a committee (ie: senate & congress) designs a horse? We get a camel instead.
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-11-2009, 02:36 PM
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You said it all right there. Let me bow down to the almighty engineer. Dude, train somebody. You aren't the only person who can do what you do. If you are the smartest person you employ, you aren't doing it to its fullest. In case you aren't aware, there are people out there that are smarter than you. Not bashing, just pointing out fact.

I stand by my advice. What you have is a ball and chain not a business.
Glad you think that people directly responsible for REVENUE GENERATION are worthless. Glad you're not my boss.



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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-11-2009, 02:39 PM
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Hey chief, I was just throwing out some free advise, It's worth what it costs.

I'm glad Mike does well. I hope he continues to. This isn't a pissing match. Just trying to help him and his business "be all it can be". I have a few years of experience, too.
Outsource all the talent, right? It works if only a few people do it. When everyone has to do it to compete, the gradual realization of how many good paying jobs have left, and the buying power that goes along with it comes crashing down when there's nobody left to purchase goods or services from your business...



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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-11-2009, 06:45 PM
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Glad you think that people directly responsible for REVENUE GENERATION are worthless. Glad you're not my boss.
At what point did I say anybody in an organization is worthless?

As far as the original subject, the government needs no extra authority for anything else. The track record of the failures is long and growing.

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