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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-21-2009, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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That hope and change thing...

So.....remember how you libs said Obama was for protecting the little people?

Three provisions of the PATRIOT Act are sceduled to expire at the end of the year. President Barack Obama wants Congress to renew them.


Some Democrats, led by Sen. Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, want to use the renewal as an opportunity to make broader changes in the law because they think it gives the government too much power to snoop.

Proponents of the PATRIOT Act, including many Republicans and the head of the FBI, say the law gives law enforcement much-needed flexibility to track terrorist activity in the U.S.

The elements that are set to expire include one that lets law enforcement attach a court-approved wiretap on an individual as opposed to a particular phone line, another that lowers the court standard of suspicion for allowing law enforcement to collect records in a terrorism investigation and a third that says law enforcement doesn't have to show a suspected terrorist has a connection to a foreign power to set up surveillance.

House and Senate committees will begin working on the issue this week.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-22-2009, 12:35 AM
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Yes, but they are going to amend it to limit the scope of power in many aspects. I'm not an Obama supporter, but I don't think this qualifies as a broken campaign promise. That is because from what I read the proposed reform was endorsed by the ACLU. If the ACLU put their rubber stamp on anything, you know damn well it is liberal friendly in it's language.

Obama knows you can't just make the Patriot Act simply go away in a post 9/11 America. What he can do change the language and make revisions that will appeal to his base.

I believe the Patriot Act is fine in it's current form. We haven't had an attack in 8 years. There is nothing to fear if you aren't pursuing terrorist activities. However, the ACLU and Obama Administration see it differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-22-2009, 04:40 PM
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I don't think you people get it.

Here let obama tell you in his own words what he wants to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uuWVHT1WUY



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-22-2009, 05:05 PM
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i cant wait for the lead to fly.fucking draw a line in the sand and step over it already.


bush/clinton/bush/obama,its all a big sham.americans have been duped.

RON PAUL '08
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangman_2000 View Post
Obama knows you can't just make the Patriot Act simply go away in a post 9/11 America.

Bullshit. He can repeal that unconstitutional piece of $#!+ legislation.

IMO, everyone who is against "gun control", socialized health care, or the government takeover of the auto industry should be just as pissed about the "Patriot" Act. It was just as much of a power grab as anything Obama has done or tried to do. They say that it is for catching terrorists, but we all know that is just the start, and actually sounds a lot like "We just want to protect the children by getting guns off the street".

Open your eyes people, it isn't just Obama here.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

"A Republic, if you can keep it"
- Benjamin Franklin

The way to peaceably remove elected officials who deviate from the constitution of the United States of America...
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow06 View Post
Bullshit. He can repeal that unconstitutional piece of $#!+ legislation.
That "piece of shit legislation" has been instrumental in thwarting several attacks since 9/11/01. That's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 03:48 PM
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Well that's all fine and good. But when does it end? Never? If not, how do we know when it's being abused, or misused? It has to have a stop put to it, someday.

And here is an idea that the pussy politicians would never consider. Kill all the fucking terrorist dogs in the prison. How bout that? Try 'em, if there was sufficient evidence, convict them, then kill em. Problem solved. If you can't convict them, let them go. But I would wager that 90% of the mother fuckers in there, are in there cause there was sufficient evidence that they were a fucking terrorist. The other 10% you can just put on parole for 20 years, and return them to their country. Enforce the parole with an implanted, trackable chip that will be removed at the end of their parole.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 05:43 PM
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it leans to much in the way of the american citizen. big problem but,they don't care.

stand up in mass confront the media and all elected politicians.as well as big business.it won't stop until people get hurt.thats what im affraid of.

RON PAUL '08
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangman_2000 View Post
That "piece of shit legislation" has been instrumental in thwarting several attacks since 9/11/01. That's a fact.
Oh? Got proof? Or are you just repeating what you have been told?

And it don't matter any way. I don't care if it shit gold on every door step in America. It, not only violates your 4th amendment, it all but abolishes it. All they have to do is say they suspect you to be a terrorist, or linked to, and your 4th is gone. No judge, no jury, no nothing.

How may times have you heard that word flying out of the mouths of the dip shits in congress latley, calling for every group that is not liberal in nature, to be put on the terror watch list?

Yeah, it's a P.O.S. legislation.



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Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tazz007 View Post
Oh? Got proof? Or are you just repeating what you have been told?
Foiled Plots Since 9/11

In the days after 9/11, America immediately went to work to prevent another act of terrorism by reassessing U.S. counterterrorism abilities. Lessons emerged, including the need for more information sharing down to the state and local level and with our allies, more intelligence-gathering abilities, and greater integration among the U.S. government agencies and with state and local governments, industry, and private citizens. The U.S. addressed these needs by:

* Developing terrorism-fighting legal and investigatory tools, including the PATRIOT Act[1] and the expansion of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), to help to identify, prosecute, and convict terrorists.
* Increasing information sharing and collective security around the globe through assistance programs, information-sharing agreements, and the sharing of counterterrorism best practices.
* Developing law enforcement partnerships from the grassroots level up, which have enabled the U.S. to disrupt the flow of money and resources to terrorist groups and to prevent acts of terrorism across the United States. The creation of Joint Terrorism Task Forces has been a key part of this effort.

However, not everyone agrees that these efforts have been successful. A September 2008 report from the American Security Project challenged the notion that the U.S. is better prepared for a terrorist attack.[2] However, given that there has not been another attack on U.S. soil since 9/11, it is difficult to argue that America is no safer. A review of publicly available information shows that 23 attacks have been thwarted.

Richard Reid, December 2001. A British citizen and self-professed follower of Osama bin Laden, Reid hid explosives inside his shoes before boarding a flight from Paris to Miami and attempted to light the fuse with a match. If detonated, the explosives would have damaged the plane. Reid was caught in the act and apprehended on board the plane by the flight attendants and passengers. FBI officials took Reid into custody after the plane made an emergency landing at Boston's Logan International Airport.[3]

In 2003, Reid was found guilty on charges of terrorism, and a U.S. federal court sentenced him to life imprisonment.[4]

Jose Padilla, May 2002. U.S. officials arrested Padilla in May 2002 at O'Hare Airport in Chicago as he returned to the United States from Pakistan. He was initially charging as an enemy combatant and for planning to use a "dirty bomb" (an explosive laced with radioactive material) in an attack against America.[5] Prior to his conviction, Padilla brought a case against the federal government claiming that he had been denied the right of habeas corpus (the right of an individual to petition against unlawful imprisonment). In a 5-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court found that the case against him had been filed improperly.[6] In 2005, the government indicted Padilla for conspiring with Islamic terrorist groups.

In August 2007, Padilla was found guilty by a civilian jury after a three-month trial. He was later sentenced by the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida to 17 years and four months in prison.[7]

Lackawanna Six, September 2002. When the FBI arrested Sahim Alwan, Yahya Goba, Yasein Taher, Faysal Galab, Shafal Mosed, and Mukhtar al-Bakri, the press dubbed them the "Lackawanna Six," the "Buffalo Six," or the "Buffalo Cell." Five of the six had been born and raised in Lackawanna, New York.[8] These six American citizens of Yemeni descent were arrested for conspiring with terrorist groups. They had stated that they were going to Pakistan to attend a religious training camp, but instead attended an al-Qaeda jihadist camp.

All six pleaded guilty in 2003 to providing support to al-Qaeda. Goba and al-Bakri were sentenced to 10 years in prison, Taher and Mosed to eight years, Alwan to seven and a half years, and Galab to seven years.[9]

Iyman Faris, May 2003. Faris is a naturalized U.S. citizen originally from Kashmir and lived in Columbus, Ohio. He was arrested for conspiring to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge.[10] The New York City Police Department learned of the plot and increased police surveillance around the bridge. Faced with the additional security, Faris and his superiors decided to cancel the attack.[11]

Faris pleaded guilty to conspiracy and providing material support to al-Qaeda and was later sentenced in federal district court to 20 years, the maximum allowed under his plea agreement.[12]

Virginia Jihad Network, June 2003. In Alexandria, Virginia, 11 men were arrested for weapons counts and for violating the Neutrality Acts, which prohibit U.S. citizens and residents from attacking countries with which the United States is at peace. Four of the 11 men pleaded guilty. Upon further investigation, the remaining seven were indicated on additional charges of conspiring to support terrorist organizations. They were found to have connections with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Lashkar-i-Taiba, a terrorist organization that targets the Indian government. The authorities stated that the Virginia men had used paintball games to train and prepare for battle. The group had also acquired surveillance and night vision equipment and wireless video cameras.[13]

Ali al-Timimi, the spiritual leader of the group, was found guilty of soliciting individuals to assault the United States and sentenced to life in prison. Ali Asad Chandia received 15 years for supporting Lashkar-i-Taiba, but maintains his innocence.[14] Randoll Todd Royer, Ibrahim al-Hamdi, Yong Ki Kwon, Khwaja Mahmood Hasan, Muhammed Aatique, and Donald T. Surratt pleaded guilty and were sentenced to prison terms. Masoud Khan, Seifullah Chapman, and Hammad Adur-Raheem were found guilty at trial and later sentenced.[15]

Dhiren Barot, August 2004. Members of a terrorist cell led by Dhiren Barot were arrested for plotting to attack the New York Stock Exchange and other financial institutions in New York, Washington, and Newark, New Jersey. They were later accused of planning attacks in England. The plots included a "memorable black day of terror" that would have included detonating a dirty bomb.[16] A July 2004 police raid on Barot's house in Pakistan discovered a number of incriminating files on a laptop computer, including instructions for building car bombs.[17]

Dhiren Barot pleaded guilty and was convicted in the United Kingdom for conspiracy to commit mass murder and sentenced to 40 years.[18] However, in May 2007, his sentence was reduced to 30 years.[19]

James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj, August 2004. James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj were arrested for plotting to bomb a subway station near Madison Square Garden in New York City before the Republican National Convention.[20] An undercover detective from New York City Police Department's Intelligence Division infiltrated the group, providing information to authorities, and later testified against Elshafay and Siraj.[21]

Siraj was convicted and sentenced to 30 years in prison. Elshafay, a U.S. citizen, pleaded guilty and received a lighter, five-year sentence for testifying against his co-conspirator.[22]

Yassin Aref and Mohammad Hossain, August 2004. Two leaders of a mosque in Albany, New York, were charged with plotting to purchase a shoulder-fired grenade launcher to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat.[23] An investigation by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and local police contributed to the arrest. With the help of an informant, the FBI set up a sting that lured Mohammed Hossain into a fake terrorist conspiracy. Hossain brought Yassin Araf, a Kurdish refugee, as a witness. The informant offered details of a fake terrorist plot, claiming that he needed the missiles to murder a Pakistani diplomat in New York City. Both agreed to help.[24]

Aref and Hossain were found guilty of money laundering and conspiracy to conceal material support for terrorism and later sentenced to 15 years in prison.[25]

Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, June 2005. Umer Hayat, a Pakistani immigrant, and Hamid Hayat, his American son, were arrested in Lodi, California, after allegedly lying to the FBI about Hamid's attendance at an Islamic terrorist training camp in Pakistan.

Hamid was found guilty of supporting terrorism and was sentenced to 24 years.[26] Umer's trial ended in a mistrial. He later pleaded guilty to lying to customs agents in his attempt to carry $28,000 into Pakistan.[27]

Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson, Hammad Riaz Samana, and Kevin James, August 2005. The members of the group were arrested in Los Angeles and charged with conspiring to attack National Guard facilities, synagogues, and other targets in the Los Angeles area. Kevin James allegedly founded Jamiyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheeh (JIS), a radical Islamic prison group, and converted Levar Washington and others to the group. The JIS allegedly planned to finance their operations by robbing gas stations. After Washington and Patterson were arrested for robbery, police and federal agents began a terrorist investigation, and a search of Washington's apartment revealed a suspicious target list.[28]

James and Washington pleaded guilty in December 2007. James was sentenced to 16 years in prison and Washington to 22 years. Patterson received 151 months, while Samana was found unfit to stand trial and detained in a federal prison facility.

Michael C. Reynolds, December 2005. Michael C. Reynolds was arrested by the FBI and charged with involvement in a plot to blow up a Wyoming natural gas refinery; the Transcontinental Pipeline, a natural-gas pipeline from the Gulf Coast to New York and New Jersey; and a Standard Oil refinery in New Jersey.[29] He was arrested while trying to pick up a $40,000 payment for planning the attack.[30] Shannen Rossmiller, his purported contact, was a Montana judge who was working with the FBI. The FBI later found explosives in a storage locker in Reynolds's hometown of Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.[31] Reynolds claimed that he was working as a private citizen to find terrorists.[32]

Reynolds was convicted of providing material support to terrorists, soliciting a crime of violence, unlawful distribution of explosives, and unlawful possession of a hand grenade. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison.[33]

Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, and Zand Wassim Mazloum, February 2006. Amawi, El-Hindi, and Mazloum were arrested in Toledo, Ohio, for "conspiring to kill or injure people in the Middle East" and providing material support to terrorist organizations. They allegedly intended to build bombs for use in Iraq. The investigation was begun through the help of an informant who was approached to help to train the group.[34]

In June 2008, all three were convicted of conspiring to commit acts of terrorism against Americans overseas, including U.S. military personnel in Iraq and other terrorism-related violations. Their sentencing is scheduled for August 2009.[35]

Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, April 2006. Ahmed and Sadequee, from Atlanta, Georgia, were accused of conspiracy, having discussed terrorist targets with alleged terrorist organizations. They allegedly met with Islamic extremists and received training and instruction in gathering videotape surveillance of potential targets in the Washington, D.C., area, including the U.S. Capitol and the World Bank headquarters, and sent the videos to a London extremist group.[36]

Both were indicted for providing material support to terrorist organizations and pleaded not guilty.[37] In June 2009, a federal district judge found Ahmed "guilty of conspiring to provide material support to terrorists here and overseas."[38] Sadequee was denied bail and is awaiting trial.

Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augustine, June 2006. Seven men were arrested in Miami and Atlanta for plotting to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago, followed by FBI offices and other government buildings around the country. The arrests resulted from an investigation involving an FBI informant. Allegedly, Batiste was the leader of the group and first suggested attacking the Sears Tower in December 2005.[39]

All of the suspects pleaded not guilty. On December 13, 2007, Lemorin was acquitted of all charges,[40] but the jury failed to reach a verdict on the other six. The second trial ended in a mistrial in April 2008.[41] In the third trial, the jury convicted five of the men on multiple conspiracy charges[42] and acquitted Herrara on all counts. Sentencing is set for July 26, 2009.

Assem Hammoud, July 2006.Conducting online surveillance of chat rooms, the FBI discovered a plot to attack underground transit links between New York City and New Jersey. Eight suspects including Assem Hammoud, an al-Qaeda loyalist living in Lebanon, were arrested for plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels. Hammoud, a self-proclaimed operative for al Qaeda, admitted to the plot.[43] He was held by Lebanese authorities, but was not extradited because the U.S. does not have an extradition treaty with Lebanon. In June 2008, Lebanese authorities released him on bail.[44] He is awaiting trial before a Lebanese military court.

Liquid Explosives Plot, August 2006. British law enforcement stopped a terrorist plot to blow up 10 U.S.-bound commercial airliners with liquid explosives.[45] Approximately 24 British persons were arrested in the London area. The style of the plot raised speculation that al-Qaeda was behind it, but no concrete evidence has established a link.

The United Kingdom initially charged 15 of the 24 arrested individuals on charges ranging from conspiring to commit murder to planning to commit terrorist acts.[46] Eventually, only eight men were brought to trial in April 2008. In September, the jury found none of the defendants guilty of conspiring to target aircraft,[47] but found three guilty of conspiracy to murder. It was unable to reach verdicts on four of the men. One man was found not guilty on all counts.[48] Those convicted are still awaiting sentencing.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, March 2007. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, captured in 2003, was allegedly involved in a number of terrorist plots and was one of the most senior of Osama bin Laden's operatives to have been captured.[49] He is being held at the U.S. military detention facility in Guantanamo Bay. In March 2007, Mohammed admitted to helping to plan, organize, and run the 9/11 attacks and claimed responsibility for the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and the bombings of nightclubs in Bali in 2002 and a Kenyan hotel. He has stated that he decapitated American journalist Daniel Pearl and took responsibility for helping to plan the failed attack by Richard Reid, along with plots to attack Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf, Big Ben, targets in Israel, the Panama Canal, Los Angeles, Chicago, the Empire State building, and U.S. nuclear power stations. He had also plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II and former President Bill Clinton.

In December 2008, Mohammed and his four co-defendants (Ramzi Binalshibh, Mustafa Ahmad al-Hawsawi, Ali Abd al-Aziz Ali, and Walid Bin Attash) told the military tribunal judge that they wanted to confess and plead guilty to all charges.[50] The judge has approved the guilty plea of Mohammed and two co-defendants, but has required mental competency hearings before allowing the other two conspirators to plead guilty.

Fort Dix Plot, May 2007. Six men were arrested in a plot to attack Fort Dix, a U.S. Army base in New Jersey. The plan involved using assault rifles and grenades to attack and kill soldiers. Five of the alleged conspirators had conducted training missions in the nearby Pocono Mountains. The sixth helped to obtain weapons. The arrests were made after a 16-month FBI operation that included infiltrating the group. The investigation began after a store clerk alerted authorities after discovering a video file of the group firing weapons and calling for jihad. The group has no known direct connections to any international terrorist organization.[51]

In December 2008, all five were found guilty on the conspiracy charges, but acquitted of charges of attempted murder.[52] Four were also convicted on weapons charges. All are awaiting sentencing.

JFK Airport Plot, June 2007. Four men plotted to blow up "aviation fuel tanks and pipelines at the John F. Kennedy International Airport" in New York City. They believed that such an attack would cause "greater destruction than in the Sept. 11 attacks." Authorities stated that the attack "could have caused significant financial and psychological damage, but not major loss of life."[53]

Russeel Defreitas, the leader of the group, was arrested in Brooklyn. The other three members of the group--Abdul Kadir, Kareem Ibrahim, and Abdel Nur--were detained in Trinidad and were extradited in June 2008. Kadir and Nur have links to Islamic extremists in South America and the Caribbean. Kadir was an imam in Guyana, former member of the Guyanese Parliament, and mayor of Linden, Guyana. Ibrhaim is a Trinidadian citizen, and Nur is a Guyanese citizen. The men pleaded not guilty to the charges and are awaiting trial.[54]

Mohammed Jabarah, January 2008. Mohammad Jabarah was involved in plots to bomb U.S. embassies in Singapore and the Philippines and mass transit frequented by U.S. military personnel. He was convicted of filming U.S., Australian, and Israeli embassies and conducting surveillance of U.S. warships. He is suspected of training in al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and spending time with Osama bin Laden. Jabarah was arrested in 2002 by Omani police and was later transferred to American custody. In January 2008, Jabarah was sentenced to life in prison after pleading guilty to terrorism charges.[55]

Hassan Abujihaad, March 2008. Hassan Abujihaad, a former U.S. Navy sailor from Phoenix, Arizona, was convicted of supporting terrorism and disclosing classified information, including the location of Navy ships and their vulnerabilities to Azzam Publications, a London organization that provided material support and resources to terrorists. Abujihaad was arrested in March 2007 and pleaded not guilty to charges of supporting terrorism in April 2007. In May 2008, he was convicted by a jury and sentenced to 10 years in prison.[56]

Christopher Paul, June 2008. Christopher Paul is a U.S. citizen from Columbus, Ohio. He joined al-Qaeda in the 1990s and was involved in conspiracies to target Americans in the United States and overseas. In 1999, he became connected to an Islamic terrorist cell in Germany, where he was involved in a plot to target Americans at foreign vacation resorts. He later returned to Ohio and was subsequently arrested for conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, specifically explosive devices, "against targets in Europe and the United States." Paul pleaded guilty to the charges and was sentenced to 20 years in prison.[57]

Synagogue Terror Plot, May 2009. On May 20, 2009, the New York Police Department announced the arrest of James Cromite, David Williams, Onta Williams, and Laguerre Payen for plotting to blow up area Jewish centers and shoot down planes at a nearby Air National Guard Base.[58] The four had attempted to gain access to Stinger missiles and were caught in the act of placing bombs in the buildings and in a car. (The bombs were duds, because undercover agents sold them fake explosives as part of an ongoing sting operation). All four men have pleaded not guilty.[59]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-23-2009, 09:52 PM
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And read this. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...c-terror-plot/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-24-2009, 12:29 AM
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Ok. Then 30 years from now, when some shit happens that no one could know about now, they use it on americans and all it what the will. Maybe it had it's usage, but it still needs to be gotten rid of, for the good of all.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-24-2009, 05:06 PM
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Mustang man. Yes I know about all of those. Prove the patriot act had anything to do with it.

The CIA and the other alphabet thugs have had those people, and more under surveillance for years.

And I still don't give a rats ass. An entire country loosing rights to catch a few bad guys is not worth it.

What was it Ben Franklin said? Those that would trade a little freedom for security, deserve neither.

I consider those that do trade freedom for anything to be traitors to the constitution and the American people. The people that passed these laws/acts should be tried for treason.



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-27-2009, 08:58 PM
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it's warrantless and therefore it's illegal.
that is the bottom line.
If you support this, you support everything warrant less........there is no difference.
Isn't it bad enough that there a rubber stamp judges all over america?
the feds never had problems getting warrants before believe me.
Now they can just snoop on any body any where , and for any thing they want to.
And all the reports generated by them clearly illustrate they do just that, it is an ALL ENCOMPASSING program. They look for key words
If this catches any terrorists, they are only the stupidest terrorist ever.
Like that guy they caught in Dallas the other day . this kid was a fucking idiot and lacked much of what he needed to ever accomplish building a legitimate bomb. They just need these arrests to constitute big government snooping. There will be a day where people of differing political views are the terrorists, and then they will use their big databasing to round em up and exterminate . Just like commies have done before . They'll sell it like its for every one's good and people will believe it.

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 12:36 PM
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to clarify ........ I am glad for the people they have caught already like the dumbass kid that 'tried ' to bomb the building in dallas
but they take these arrests, as ill planned as some are, and perpetuate that this program is absolutely necessary.
Our real enemies know they capture all communication accross data networks and would not be stupid enough to use keywords they will flag. It's deception, the basis for war in general. Only a fool believes this program catches our real enemies, if it does in your opinion, at the very least only the dumbest of dumbest ones.
This program (which i used to support) is a total data mining operation, completely elimating private communication on the internet everywhere. Sure 'we have nothing to hide' , and people will say that up to the bitter end. But you have to understand the legal precedence behind this. There is no difference in them opening up everyones mail before it gets to you. It is exactly the same - warrantless. With this precipise (spic) , they can do just that too. The fucked up thing is FEDS have never had any problems getting warrants for ANYTHING they wanted any way. So this is a huge overstepping of your rights as guaranteed by the constitution.
Again i am glad they catch the bad guys, I just don't want to be treated like one. Read the reports on this program about how much is datamined . IT IS EVERYTHING, there is no focus here like a warrant has. Even drug dealers aren't stupid enough to communicate in a manner so easily caught.

79 K5 blazer, 6" lift 38x15" tires d44/12b lockers and chromoly axles ,6.2L GM diesel - Waste Vegetable Oil conversion - cross over steering,14"SAW nitrogen shocks, beefed shackles, shackle flip, winch/ bumpers, diff covers.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 12:46 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangman_2000 View Post
That "piece of shit legislation" has been instrumental in thwarting several attacks since 9/11/01. That's a fact.
That's an opinion. I see your list, and as said above they probabaly had enough on those cases to get a warrant anyway. Yeah, it takes time, but it also keeps you from needlessly harassing citizens whose rights are protected by the constitution.

I am all for cutting the red tape and getting the bad guys, but this is outright illegal.

I am sure a lot of people could be considered "domestic terrorists" for the opinions they hold in relationship to the government, even though ose opinions are 100% in line with the constitution. That label can and will be thrown around to attack whoever they want. All enemies of the governemnt can then be easily defeated. I know you are not stupid, you know this has been done in the past.

I would love to be wrong on all of this, but absolute power without checks and balances (what are those???) will corrupt. And it has.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 12:55 PM
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The Patriot act was written before 9/11 and is a complete violation of our rights. We don't need it, but big bro will tell you a different tale.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by slow06 View Post
That's an opinion. .
Fact.

Your refutations are moot. The Justice Department has charged over 300 defendants as a result of terrorism investigations since 9/11. Shoe bomber Richard Reid was one of them.

I'm not saying I was happy about the warrant-less wiretap debacle, but it has made our country safer as a result. And the Patriot Act legislation is much much more than just roving wire taps. It has worked to thwart many possible terrorist activities on US soil. And if the Obama Administration revises the Patriot Act it will no longer contain some of the broad scope of powers it once had.

You can argue against it all you want. However, at the end of the day it has proven to be an invaluable tool to law enforcement. It has resulted in arrest of people who demonstrated intent to due harm to Americans. If you feel that it is an opinion that is because you choose to ignore the plethora of news articles citing the Patriot Act being a factor in intercepting communications by potential terrorist (sleeper cells). If you can't accept it, then that's your problem.

It has created a path of communication between departments that was not there prior to 9/11. There is also a lot of misunderstanding about how it works and who are designated people of interests. Law abiding citizens having nothing to worry about. Have you had the FBI knock on your door in the last 8 years? Not I.

Why worry about it at this point anyway. Obama is going to neuter the shit out of it before they renew it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 01:16 PM
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Now if you're going to use the patriot act to spy on Americans, you have to use it on "suspected terrorists" of course, so then the American people will allow it to be used on them unsuspectingly. You can only claim it to be a useful tool because "THEY" told you it's an effective tool. "They" have lost all credibility a long time ago. Did you know only 25% of people held for terrorist activity are ever tried? The other 75% are released due to lack of evidence.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 01:21 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
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Was it because of the Patriot Act or is the past 8 years of finding terrorists the result of getting bitch slapped on 9/11 and finally having being in the intelligence community waking up and doing their job (without regards to the Patriot Act?)

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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 01:55 PM
Lifer
 
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The only way this could be made right is if they have to obtain a warrant.
end of story.
with no checks and balances, it will be used against innocent people. That's assuming it hasn't already.
I hear what youre saying mustang man , but there is little evidence this particular piece of legislation is instrumental in bringing down these cases. They just want to hang on to their already totally overzealous powers.

I for one am just glad we don't see any cases of abuse of power .

yet

think about it, they were granted sneak and peek power. That is fucking totally overzealous in it's most obvious form. You say it's for our own safety . I say you need to remember that big government is just as big of a problem and history supports me. I've seen first hand how law enforcement works , and I have little trust in them unfortunately.

79 K5 blazer, 6" lift 38x15" tires d44/12b lockers and chromoly axles ,6.2L GM diesel - Waste Vegetable Oil conversion - cross over steering,14"SAW nitrogen shocks, beefed shackles, shackle flip, winch/ bumpers, diff covers.

94 CBR 600 naked, handbraked, -1 +3 sprockets, one wheel operation mod

"I'm sorry, nothing quite says, "F- You, I'm from Texas" like an all-business, stripped-down K5."
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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 04:05 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangman_2000 View Post
Fact.

Your refutations are moot. The Justice Department has charged over 300 defendants as a result of terrorism investigations since 9/11. Shoe bomber Richard Reid was one of them.

I'm not saying I was happy about the warrant-less wiretap debacle, but it has made our country safer as a result. And the Patriot Act legislation is much much more than just roving wire taps. It has worked to thwart many possible terrorist activities on US soil. And if the Obama Administration revises the Patriot Act it will no longer contain some of the broad scope of powers it once had.

You can argue against it all you want. However, at the end of the day it has proven to be an invaluable tool to law enforcement. It has resulted in arrest of people who demonstrated intent to due harm to Americans. If you feel that it is an opinion that is because you choose to ignore the plethora of news articles citing the Patriot Act being a factor in intercepting communications by potential terrorist (sleeper cells). If you can't accept it, then that's your problem.

It has created a path of communication between departments that was not there prior to 9/11. There is also a lot of misunderstanding about how it works and who are designated people of interests. Law abiding citizens having nothing to worry about. Have you had the FBI knock on your door in the last 8 years? Not I.

Why worry about it at this point anyway. Obama is going to neuter the shit out of it before they renew it.
You are totally missing the point, and IMO are quite naive if you really think "Law abiding citizens having nothing to worry about." No, the FBI has not shown up at my door, and I highly doubt they are going to. This isn't about me being scared or looking over my shoulder. This isn't about our country being safer from foreign enemies. This is about the law, what is legal and what isn't, what is constitutional and what isn't. This is about the domestic enemies.

Are you going to wait until the FBI does show up at your door to start second guessing the agenda of the government, even though time and time again they have proven themselves liars and cheats? Why do you trust their stated intentions?

Do you really think a benevolent end (if it is one) justifies an illegal means?

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

"A Republic, if you can keep it"
- Benjamin Franklin

The way to peaceably remove elected officials who deviate from the constitution of the United States of America...
www.blowoutcongress.com
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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 04:07 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
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When the FBI shows up at my door I offer them a beer.

Ok, he is a neighbor and a good friend.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
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