Thoughts on the new Tariff put on Chinese Tires? - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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Thoughts on the new Tariff put on Chinese Tires?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oba...res-2009-09-11

Obama trying to help the American tire industry. Better stock up on your cheap chinese tires the price is going up!

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post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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This will just back fire.

Do you think the Chinese will just set idly by and do nothing in response?
They will either stop our imports, or tax the crap out of our stuff being sent there. This will result in less exports from us to them.



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post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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protectionism here we come...

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post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 08:51 AM
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So OK let me get this straight. Run up trillions in debt and piss off the only country buying your paper who has already been reluctant to buy latley. Sounds like a fine plan to me.



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post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 09:57 AM
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Lets piss off the only people buying our debt. Good Idea

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post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 10:36 AM
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If I did not know any better, I would say this current administration is trying to plunge our country into something worse than the great depression. Or to completely destroy capitalism.

Oh wait, I don't know any better. Hummmmmm



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post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 11:04 AM
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protectionism here we come...
I wonder if he is just trying to see if he can follow FDR's every rolled step?

Not to mention, shouldn't this have gone through Congress?

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post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 01:40 PM
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Not to mention, shouldn't this have gone through Congress?

Details Sean. Details.

He's not gonna let a little thing like checks and balances get in his way.
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post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 02:33 PM
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I'll be honest for a sec.

When I first heard about this, I thought it was an okay decision in an effort to save American jobs.


Then I realized what jobs it would save and/or create...UNION.

Not to mention all of the global free trade violations.

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post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 02:50 PM
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Eventually, we'll have to tell China to kiss our collective asses. I say do it sooner rather than later to get this shitstorm started so it ends quicker.

I'm not sure if this is the way to start it, but it is what it is.

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post #11 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 09:44 PM
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Eventually, we'll have to tell China to kiss our collective asses. I say do it sooner rather than later to get this shitstorm started so it ends quicker.

I'm not sure if this is the way to start it, but it is what it is.
You better pray to GOD, we do not go to war with China. The man power alone would kill us.


Edit: Crap. Didn't Japan attack us for monkeying with their goods?



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Last edited by tazz007; 09-12-2009 at 09:51 PM.
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post #12 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 09:59 PM
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And didn't we send them into the dark ages for a bit?

We need to level China and Iran and any other country that is an issue as a display of power
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post #13 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 10:02 PM
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Damn, I just figured it sucks, cuz, now I gotta spend more money on tires.
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post #14 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 10:02 PM
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protectionism here we come...
Exactly, not good.
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post #15 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 10:12 PM
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Exactly, not good.
PM me a list of affordable hedges to get me through the next 12 years

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post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 10:59 PM
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PM me a list of affordable hedges to get me through the next 12 years
You know that I'm not thrilled about the way our economy is currently headed. Doesn't mean I'm convinced we're doomed, just definitely some concerns. So many thoughts...the next year or so I see as being as stock picker's paradise (meaning I think US equities will trade basically sideways). Any FCX tick in the 50's I think is a screaming buy, particularly if you're willing to hold long-term. That level is when I add to my holdings. The fundamentals make FCX an excellent long-term hold in my opinion. Additionally it gives all you Armageddon guys (it's a copper play) a nice place to hang out.
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post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 11:26 PM
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And didn't we send them into the dark ages for a bit?

We need to level China and Iran and any other country that is an issue as a display of power

Japan did not have nukes to fight back with. China does.



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post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 11:36 PM
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That's why you make sure it's a good job. One strike, with all our forces deployed to intercept...oh wait. Obama shut down our missile shield.
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post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 11:40 PM
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Makes you wonder don't it.



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post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 10:22 AM
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It appears to me that Obama is boxing us in. If they tax imports coming in from China, this will raise the prices on those items. You can make the argument that it will help American manufactoring until you realize that the cap and trade laws will force those companies to raise the prices on the goods they produce. Either way, the American consumer loses.
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post #21 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 11:28 AM
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You better pray to GOD, we do not go to war with China. The man power alone would kill us.
Do you really think they are capable of landing combat troops en mass on our soil? They can't even take Taiwan! Give them 10-15 years to build a few aircraft carriers and several thousand more troop carriers and they might be able to land something in California one day if our troops in Hawaii didn't sink everything first.

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post #22 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 06:19 PM
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Who was that chinese guy who said it would be pointless to try to go to war with us cause the first thing we would do is kill their power? It's some big undersea cable that would shut off the electricity to half their country or something like that. If it's true, you can bet we got a few big guns pointed right at the cable.
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post #23 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 07:23 PM
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Who was that chinese guy who said it would be pointless to try to go to war with us cause the first thing we would do is kill their power? It's some big undersea cable that would shut off the electricity to half their country or something like that. If it's true, you can bet we got a few big guns pointed right at the cable.
A great deal of the population still live in huts and have never heard of indoor plumbing or electricity.

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post #24 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 08:11 PM
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I call it a good start, do that to all the goods and we might actually start bringing jobs back. Sure it will suck for a bit while we put things back how they used to but it sure as shit beats the path we are on now.

Free trade doesnt work for the majority, look at how broke the country is and all the people out of work. They dont buy shit from us in comparision, hell they steal the one big thing america has going for it, entertainment and when we bitch about it their government laughs at us. Why this country has to rely on any other baffles me, we used to do everything ourselves and then you guys bitch about peple being lazy and whatnot....doesnt make sense. Time to reverse this shit, america needs to ALSO be the worlds economic center, not just military power cause without the economy we will lose the military power in time.

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post #25 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 07:44 AM
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And now it begins..

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/bu...er=rss&emc=rss

Looks like China is going to go after chicken and cars. However I'm kinda surprised that they would. China can't feed its own people so I'm amazed they would ever consider any sort of foodstuff. Car wise, most US cars sold in China are actually built in China. Buick and VW are the two biggest brands. To my knowledge, the only Buick that is actually imported to China is the Enclave CUV.

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post #26 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Its a magic trick. Remove the focus on healthcare by starting a new shit storm. politics is easy...

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post #27 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 09:02 AM
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It is in Barry's best interest for the country to have big problems so he can continue to ram through his left agenda. "Never let a crisis go to waste."
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post #28 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 12:33 PM
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China's angry:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/bu...rade.html?_r=1

Fox article, saying will cost us 20,000 jobs:
http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/...riff-decision/

Modern Tire says it'll cost jobs:
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/Blog...the-night.aspx

So...we're pissing off our biggest debt holder, increasing our costs (tire prices will rise) AND it'll cost jobs.

Hmmm...

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post #29 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 12:56 PM
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Okay, I have to say this and it hurts to do it. If Obama had let things go with China importing things wihtout a tariff, then it could be said he was working for the Communists, and if he put a tariff, this happens.
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post #30 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 12:58 PM
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Okay, I was wrong...THIS is retarded

For the most part, Chinese officials have grumbled but done little, preferring to preserve a trade relationship in which the United States buys $4.46 worth of Chinese goods for every $1 worth of American goods sold to China.
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post #31 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 01:19 PM
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A great deal of the population still live in huts and have never heard of indoor plumbing or electricity.
Yeah but those aren't the people we would be fighting
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post #32 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 03:50 PM
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Okay, I was wrong...THIS is retarded

For the most part, Chinese officials have grumbled but done little, preferring to preserve a trade relationship in which the United States buys $4.46 worth of Chinese goods for every $1 worth of American goods sold to China.
I was wondering when this info was going to surface. In my mind, tariffs like this are long over due. If trade were remotely close to equal, I'd be against it. As it is, these type of imports are pushing US companies (and thus employees) out of business. No matter how much we try here, we can't compete with cheap Chinese labor. Face the facts. Likewise, there aren't enough committed "Buy American!" types out there to sustain American products at the higher prices. There are too many dfwstangs type ballers out there that want everything free or cheap. This is simply leveling the playing field.

I'm wondering if those of you posting against it read this part of the article:

U.S. imports of Chinese tires have risen from 14.6 million in 2004 to 46 million last year, accounting for about one-sixth of the U.S. market. Four U.S. tire plants have closed in the past two years, and more than 5,000 workers have lost their jobs.

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post #33 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 03:59 PM
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I was wondering when this info was going to surface. In my mind, tariffs like this are long over due. If trade were remotely close to equal, I'd be against it. As it is, these type of imports are pushing US companies (and thus employees) out of business. No matter how much we try here, we can't compete with cheap Chinese labor. Face the facts. Likewise, there aren't enough committed "Buy American!" types out there to sustain American products at the higher prices. There are too many dfwstangs type ballers out there that want everything free or cheap. This is simply leveling the playing field.

I'm wondering if those of you posting against it read this part of the article:

U.S. imports of Chinese tires have risen from 14.6 million in 2004 to 46 million last year, accounting for about one-sixth of the U.S. market. Four U.S. tire plants have closed in the past two years, and more than 5,000 workers have lost their jobs.
Where to begin with this post?

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post #34 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 04:01 PM
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Where to begin with this post?
How about the part where you explain the tire plants closing and loss jobs while imports sky rocketed?

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post #35 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 04:17 PM
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How about the part where you explain the tire plants closing and loss jobs while imports sky rocketed?
The solution isn't going to be found in tariffs. The solution is going to be found in those workers who were laid off finding something to do that the Chinese can't compete with.

We will never be able to compete in manufacturing so long as we continue to pay our workers fair wages. The solution to this is not to enact tariffs, but to specialize in something that you don't blow at. Tariffs do little more than raise costs for consumers and put further stress on an already strained trade relationship.

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post #36 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 04:23 PM
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Damn, I need to buy them tires for my daily that Ive been holding off on.
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post #37 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 04:30 PM
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The solution isn't going to be found in tariffs. The solution is going to be found in those workers who were laid off finding something to do that the Chinese can't compete with.

We will never be able to compete in manufacturing so long as we continue to pay our workers fair wages. The solution to this is not to enact tariffs, but to specialize in something that you don't blow at. Tariffs do little more than raise costs for consumers and put further stress on an already strained trade relationship.
One, I hardly call our current trade status with China a relationship. Their shit comes in and a minimal amount of ours goes out. Two, as long as labor is cheap and there are no barriers to going to China for manufacturing, NOTHING we can make here will hold an advantage very long. There are so many startup costs, R&D, etc. in coming up with something the Chinese can't compete with. Then, as soon as someone does it, it's a race to China to duplicate it without the R&D costs, without the startup costs, and without the higher priced labor.

You say we'll never be able to compete in manufacturing as long as we continue to pay our workers fair wages. What do you propose? $5/day salaries? Slave labor? Seriously? There are two ways to reverse the trend. 1) Consumers must start buying American, even at a higher price. I don't see this happening now or in the near future. We've become a "I want it now and I want it cheap" society. 2) The playing field is leveled by imposing tariffs on goods coming in from overseas. I don't mean such tariffs that put them at a disadvantage, but ones that level the playing field.

My company battles this crap daily because of the Buy American Act. We have orders in had for several military jobs, but we have to turn them down because we have some products that come in from China. We were manufacturing domestically, but our costs were at best 40% higher no matter what we did. Everyone else in the industry was importing stuff. We just couldn't compete. For a while we were just importing stuff too, but now we've opened our own plant there. We are imposing our standards and quality control, but it's still coming from China.

I'm all for a better solution, but I don't think it exists.

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post #38 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 06:52 PM
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Okay, I have to say this and it hurts to do it. If Obama had let things go with China importing things wihtout a tariff, then it could be said he was working for the Communists, and if he put a tariff, this happens.
By that argument, George Bush is Carl Marx himself...

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post #39 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 07:48 PM
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By that argument, George Bush is Carl Marx himself...
I would not argue with this.



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post #40 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 09:00 PM
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One, I hardly call our current trade status with China a relationship. Their shit comes in and a minimal amount of ours goes out. Two, as long as labor is cheap and there are no barriers to going to China for manufacturing, NOTHING we can make here will hold an advantage very long. There are so many startup costs, R&D, etc. in coming up with something the Chinese can't compete with. Then, as soon as someone does it, it's a race to China to duplicate it without the R&D costs, without the startup costs, and without the higher priced labor.

You say we'll never be able to compete in manufacturing as long as we continue to pay our workers fair wages. What do you propose? $5/day salaries? Slave labor? Seriously? There are two ways to reverse the trend. 1) Consumers must start buying American, even at a higher price. I don't see this happening now or in the near future. We've become a "I want it now and I want it cheap" society. 2) The playing field is leveled by imposing tariffs on goods coming in from overseas. I don't mean such tariffs that put them at a disadvantage, but ones that level the playing field.

My company battles this crap daily because of the Buy American Act. We have orders in had for several military jobs, but we have to turn them down because we have some products that come in from China. We were manufacturing domestically, but our costs were at best 40% higher no matter what we did. Everyone else in the industry was importing stuff. We just couldn't compete. For a while we were just importing stuff too, but now we've opened our own plant there. We are imposing our standards and quality control, but it's still coming from China.

I'm all for a better solution, but I don't think it exists.
You really don't get it.

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post #41 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 10:13 PM
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One, I hardly call our current trade status with China a relationship. Their shit comes in and a minimal amount of ours goes out. Two, as long as labor is cheap and there are no barriers to going to China for manufacturing, NOTHING we can make here will hold an advantage very long. There are so many startup costs, R&D, etc. in coming up with something the Chinese can't compete with. Then, as soon as someone does it, it's a race to China to duplicate it without the R&D costs, without the startup costs, and without the higher priced labor.

You say we'll never be able to compete in manufacturing as long as we continue to pay our workers fair wages. What do you propose? $5/day salaries? Slave labor? Seriously? There are two ways to reverse the trend. 1) Consumers must start buying American, even at a higher price. I don't see this happening now or in the near future. We've become a "I want it now and I want it cheap" society. 2) The playing field is leveled by imposing tariffs on goods coming in from overseas. I don't mean such tariffs that put them at a disadvantage, but ones that level the playing field.

My company battles this crap daily because of the Buy American Act. We have orders in had for several military jobs, but we have to turn them down because we have some products that come in from China. We were manufacturing domestically, but our costs were at best 40% higher no matter what we did. Everyone else in the industry was importing stuff. We just couldn't compete. For a while we were just importing stuff too, but now we've opened our own plant there. We are imposing our standards and quality control, but it's still coming from China.

I'm all for a better solution, but I don't think it exists.
Exactly, this country cannot compete with china unless we are willing to work for chinese wages which would be reversing our standard of living. This is why i say it was a brilliant plan by the chinese. Any american company that wishes to stay in business MUST move their manuacturing to china in order to compete, brilliant! You are completely right about it just being a race to get to china cause phfff any business man knows, cheaper expenses means more profit! Why in the fuck would anyone hire an american over a chinese? They only do it when they have to, for service and sales and the like.

I love hearing about how people live beyond their means due to access to cheap chinese products and how they are lazy when there really isnt a variety of jobs for people. Bringing the jobs back would increase the costs of goods BUT it would it would also bring people back into a more stable way of life and it would give them a decent stable job and get them off unemployment and an uncertain future. The current way this country does business doesnt work, thats a fact, see exhibit A: National debt and B: trade deficits with "trading" partners.

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #42 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 10:19 PM
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The solution is going to be found in those workers who were laid off finding something to do that the Chinese can't compete with.
HAHAh and what is that magical career that the chinese in no way can do? Years ago, the chinese making anything halfway worth a shit was a joke and they would never be seen as a threat to american industry.....look what happened.

They are just people, every bit as capable as us given the same chances we have had. We should have done everything to deny them those chances but instead we have sealed our own fate.

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #43 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 11:34 PM
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HAHAh and what is that magical career that the chinese in no way can do? Years ago, the chinese making anything halfway worth a shit was a joke and they would never be seen as a threat to american industry.....look what happened.

They are just people, every bit as capable as us given the same chances we have had. We should have done everything to deny them those chances but instead we have sealed our own fate.
We've got an education system. Do you guys really think you can safely meddle with the markets like this?

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post #44 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 08:13 AM
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We've got an education system. Do you guys really think you can safely meddle with the markets like this?
How do you get an education if you don't have a job to pay for it? Don't say that a company/business will pay for it. Those companies are fewer and fewer every day. Why would they put that investment into someone when they can a) go overseas for less money and b) may lose the employee they paid for to some poacher or then have to pay an extremely high wage to keep them? It's just not a good return on the investment.

Tariffs have been around for ages. Some expire, some are minute, and others exorbitant. The key is finding balance. Just look at customer service for example. How many times on this site have people complained about talking to someone in India? Why do you think so many companies have customer service there now? It ain't because the long distance rates are cheap.

I deal with structural engineers all the time. Many companies are sending projects overseas to be engineered now. Why? There's not a shortage of capable structural engineers here in the states. There is a shortage of structural guys willing to do a complete design on a 300K square feet structure for a few hundred bucks though. Email the plans and parameters over; receive them back in a week. Transaction complete at a fraction of the cost.

You want more? What about all of those spring college grads that can't find a job now? How is that working out for them? As a nation, yes, we need to become more educated and skilled. That alone won't fix the problem. Having the best skill set in the world but no company to hire you because the wage is too high is useless. The playing field has to have some type of balance. $5/day labor is not what I call balance.

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post #45 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 08:17 AM
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You really don't get it.
Don't get what? That you want to sit back like every other conservative and throw rocks at our POTUS no matter what the Administration does? Yeah, I get that. What I don't get is how you can post that Americans need to work for less wages, become more educated, and manufacture something that no one else in the world can all without any assistance from the government. Meanwhile they're supposed to provide their own health care, buy only expensive American goods, and stockpile guns and ammo. What kind of dream world are you living in? When you're finished with Tinkerbell, can you please send her back to Disney? Watching Peter Pan without her isn't quite the same.

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post #46 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 01:27 PM
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I was wondering when this info was going to surface. In my mind, tariffs like this are long over due. If trade were remotely close to equal, I'd be against it. As it is, these type of imports are pushing US companies (and thus employees) out of business. No matter how much we try here, we can't compete with cheap Chinese labor. Face the facts. Likewise, there aren't enough committed "Buy American!" types out there to sustain American products at the higher prices. There are too many dfwstangs type ballers out there that want everything free or cheap. This is simply leveling the playing field.
So what these tarrifs are, is a tax on incoming goods, right? And they are placing them, so that the chinese will have to price their tires similarly to american tires? Thus, increasing the competition and allowing tire makers to operate in the U.S? Hell yeah I'll buy american over chinese any day. If the price is similar.

But er, I don't think you (or whoever it was that said it) can say we americans are just like a bunch of dfwstangs ballers who want everything for cheap or free. No matter who you are, paying $400 instead of $200 for the same thing is stupid. You might argue that the chinese tires are poorer quality, but who even cares besides auto enthusiasts? In this economy, especially, you can't blame people for trying to save a buck. I think the tariffs are the only way you can balance the equation. It's either that, or we have slaves again. Or, convince china to stop having slaves. Take your pick. Oh wait, neither one of those is ever going to happen. So you are left with a tarrif.
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post #47 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 01:31 PM
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Don't get what? That you want to sit back like every other conservative and throw rocks at our POTUS no matter what the Administration does? Yeah, I get that. What I don't get is how you can post that Americans need to work for less wages, become more educated, and manufacture something that no one else in the world can all without any assistance from the government. Meanwhile they're supposed to provide their own health care, buy only expensive American goods, and stockpile guns and ammo. What kind of dream world are you living in? When you're finished with Tinkerbell, can you please send her back to Disney? Watching Peter Pan without her isn't quite the same.
I would throw rocks at whoever the fuck is in office if they were sticking their nose in places that it doesn't belong.

I never said that Americans need to work for less wages; I said that that would be the only way for American companies to be competitive in manufacturing. My point is that we can't be competitive in manufacturing because Americans won't work for less wages.

I had an option for health care when I worked at fucking Best Buy. Healthcare reform needs to happen, but it's not that difficult to get a hold of.

I don't give a fuck what kind of goods Americans buy and it's not my place or anyone else's place to tell them what kinds of goods to buy. People have an inherent rational self interest that dictates that they will always try and maximize the expected benefit that any cost will provide, or minimize the cost to gain an expected benefit. It's how human nature works, regardless of who provides the goods. What you're advocating completely ignores one of the very basic tenants of economic theory that every single economist that has ever lived would tell you is fact.

The world has a long history of government intervention in markets (i.e. tariffs) not working out. If you want to continue to ignore that fact, then be my guest.

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post #48 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 01:44 PM
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So you either think that it's not a problem, or you are saying that there is no solution to the problem. If we don't watch out we will shift the whole balance of power to the chinese cause they will have all the fucking money. And I hate having communists in power.
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post #49 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 05:08 PM
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I would throw rocks at whoever the fuck is in office if they were sticking their nose in places that it doesn't belong.

I never said that Americans need to work for less wages; I said that that would be the only way for American companies to be competitive in manufacturing. My point is that we can't be competitive in manufacturing because Americans won't work for less wages.

I had an option for health care when I worked at fucking Best Buy. Healthcare reform needs to happen, but it's not that difficult to get a hold of.

I don't give a fuck what kind of goods Americans buy and it's not my place or anyone else's place to tell them what kinds of goods to buy. People have an inherent rational self interest that dictates that they will always try and maximize the expected benefit that any cost will provide, or minimize the cost to gain an expected benefit. It's how human nature works, regardless of who provides the goods. What you're advocating completely ignores one of the very basic tenants of economic theory that every single economist that has ever lived would tell you is fact.

The world has a long history of government intervention in markets (i.e. tariffs) not working out. If you want to continue to ignore that fact, then be my guest.
Did you or did you not post this?

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We will never be able to compete in manufacturing so long as we continue to pay our workers fair wages.
To me, that's advocating that US workers should work for less money. If that's not what you mean by that, then please explain your great theory on fixing the problem. Oh, and as for the "Americans won't work for less wages" comment, why would we work for $5/day? It's criminal, and we have laws to prevent it. If you think working for lower wages fixes the problem, how about going to your boss in the morning and asking for a pay cut?

You can look at history all you want, but the fact is that today's global market is different than the market of 10, 20, much less 50+ years ago. Communications and logistics are so much better today. You can't compare a lot of stuff across time. It's like trying to argue who is the greatest baseball pitcher of all time.

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post #50 of 70 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 05:15 PM
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They can work for "unfair" wages or they can not work at all. As evidenced by the economy of late.

My younger brother works in a non union tire factory in Ardmore Oklahoma. He makes some pretty good money. The problem here is not the wage, it is what is perceived as "fair". Fair to a blue collar person used to be what it would take to support a wife and a few kids and a modest home. In the last decade somehow everyone got convinced that they deserved to live in a $300K house and have two car notes.
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