Was the country founded on peace? Or domination? - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:51 AM Thread Starter
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Was the country founded on peace? Or domination?

Something crossed my mind today. Go ahead and say it. That's where it all went wrong. But if you think about it, capitolism, which we all love, is based pretty much purely on money. Yeah, you can also say it's about freedom, and a free market, but it has to be, so it can make money. And communism, and socialism, are and always were, in theory, all about the people. You know, like when people who actually care are setting it up, it's meant to be just better for everyone. Course we all know it never works, but you see what im saying here. It's supposed to when they start it. Well, is there any chance that, way back when communist russia was born (im guessing that would be after imperial russia died?) it was to be all about the people. After all, how could they claim anything else and ever succede? Well, could it be, that our forefathers were smarter in choosing capitolism because in the back of their mind, they all knew the golden rule? That he who has the gold, makes the rules. Of course they would know that capitolism was all about what it has always been about. The gold. The beautiful, wonderful gold.

So is there any chance, that the ones we always saw as evil, could have actually wanted for the best of the people? (even if they didn't know they were making a mistake...) And the ones that we always saw as great, simply knew the best way to put their country on the path to being very powerful? It's not that hard to figure out. If you have a shit ton of money, then you have a shit ton of power. Not denying the forfathers were good and great and all, but they were they even greater by knowing what would put their country in the power seat? Thoughts? Opinions?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 03:05 AM
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The founding fathers had it correct. They make by the people, for the people.

They gave us the bare minimum for a govt. so that the people would have as little interference as possible when trying to live our lives.

The old addage "power corrupts" is the cause of the downfall of every other form of Govt that has ever existed. Keep the power minimal to minimize the corruption.

At the conclusion of the constitutional convention. A lady asked Benjamin Franklin
"What Govt. have you given us?"
He Replied
"A Republic, ma'am, if you can keep it"

Too many people confuse "for the people" with taking care of the people. This is a misconception. All it guarantees is Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. This is not a guarantee of equal results.

There are no guarantees. You can fail just as easy as you can succeed. The point was to make it YOUR choice, not the Govt.

They put restrictions on Govt for very good reasons. They realized that in a Republic (which is what we are, not a Democracy) that when the public realizes they can vote themselves money from the Treasury, then that is when our system of Govt will fall into quiet despotism.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 03:15 AM
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Communism is a nice sales pitch for totalitarianism.

Ultimately, government is about power, and money is a big part of power. Show me a communist government where the leaders are in the same socioeconomic class as the citizens. It just doesn't happen.

That was the genius of the architecture of the early American federal government - it was limited. It was supposed to be relatively small. It allowed the formation of disparate state governments and gave them freedom to legislate as they saw fit, while uniting them for purposes of basic law, defense, and commerce. Citizens voted local people into representative positions at state and federal levels. That representative knew he better have his voters' best interests in mind or they would vote him out.

The problem with our current government is that it is way off track. Too bloated, too complex, too expensive. It wasn't designed to cater to every special interest and it wasn't designed to redistribute wealth. Politicians rig their districts to ensure the only way they can lose their position is to die. Most federal legislation since WWI has had the effect of centralizing money and power. And that's no accident. We've got an entrenched, small group of rich aristocrats ruling the people with little or no regard to popular opinion. Last I checked, that's exactly the thing that caused America to be created in the first place.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 05:26 AM Thread Starter
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Sounds like all you ever hear on the subject is bad news and cynicism. Is there ever any good news to be heard? Are there no politicians left who would be considered to be good men? What kind of man, who, being raised in this good country, would see to it that he could never be cast out of his political position? That in itself is very unethical, and if you love your fellow man, downright shameful. I could never in good conscience do that. I would have enough respect for the job i was doing to know that I was there to serve the people. And if they didn't like me, hell well I guess i didn't deserve to be there anyway. Not like it's the end of the world. Not like you automatically die if you get voted out. If you are any kind of man, you have other ways you can make money anyway. So WTF? How did it get this bad? Such sleeze should be easily recognizable to the public, and should never get passed. Then, when they see what kind of scum they have representing them, they vote him out. Get a guy in there with some morals and values and integrity.

With the spirit of America, they might have thought twice about have the only way to remove them be death...
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 09:29 AM
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Read some quotes from our founding fathers. The warnings they made have all come true, the bankers control everything and we have become a nation controlled by debt and ruled by fear and propaganda.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 09:33 AM
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The theory behind communism is that it evolves from capitalism. in this belief capitalism is constantly growing, the rich get richer, and overtime fewer and fewer people control larger portions of a nations total wealth. eventually capitalism evolves to a state where only a couple people control 99.99% of the total wealth, and thus sparks a communist revolution. This is all theory of course, and weather it leads to a revolution or not no one can say, though the trend in Marx's theory is accurate, and that is that a smaller percentage of the people are controlling a larger percentage of the nations wealth each year.

part of the motive for the growth of socialism over the past 150 years was to stop or divert the evolution of capitalism with an aim to prevent it from evolving all the way to communism.

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 12:35 PM
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This country was founded on the premise that you could do whatever the fuck you wanted whenever you wanted so long as your actions did not impact those around you.

We seem to have lost sight of that.

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 12:56 PM
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What is amusing is Marx, who wrote the Manifesto, was sponsored by Engles who was the son of a wealthy factory owner. So, Marx wrote about freedom from the same people who were funding him.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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What is amusing is Marx, who wrote the Manifesto, was sponsored by Engles who was the son of a wealthy factory owner. So, Marx wrote about freedom from the same people who were funding him.
Ain't that always the way it goes? The parasites leech, so as to be able to destroy who they leech from. I guess it's boils down to plain stupidity and short sightedness.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 06:48 PM
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OUr country was founded on Manifest Destiny. We need to start establishing colonies in the countries we have military forces in. Take over Iraq, Kuwait, Japan and we're good on a tax base
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah. Start our own immigration so they can see how it feels. Too bad no one wants to live in some of those shitholes.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 11:24 AM
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I think you are confusing a Democratic Republic (a govt type) with Capitalism (an economic system/theory) to be honest.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 01:27 PM
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Marx was a marketing genius with his writings. He knew how to convey his message of convolution to the masses to create chaos and confusion. Once the people are confused, they are much easier to control.

Communism does not evolve from capitalism. Communism was here first. Capitalism, as a societal philosophy, became necessity after the people grew tired of being oppressed by tyrannical leaders who made them work to the bone to provide for all, instead of themselves.
the world has never seen real communism, based on Marx's theory. for it to happen capitalism would have to run its course. there have been people that have tried force communism but if you do not go through the process of evolving through capitalism, then do you really have communism? NO.

Marx was not any sort of marketing genius, very few people read his work while he was alive, he did not have a following, in fact he lived sort of like a bum living with friends and borrowing money.

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 01:30 PM
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the world has never seen real communism, based on Marx's theory. for it to happen capitalism would have to run its course. there have been people that have tried force communism but if you do not go through the process of evolving through capitalism, then do you really have communism? NO.

Marx was not any sort of marketing genius, very few people read his work while he was alive, he did not have a following, in fact he lived sort of like a bum living with friends and borrowing money.

His theory in practice.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-31-2009, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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I think you are confusing a Democratic Republic (a govt type) with Capitalism (an economic system/theory) to be honest.
Well they kind of go hand in hand
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-31-2009, 08:27 AM
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Well they kind of go hand in hand
.

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Originally Posted by Liberty and Tyranny, Chapter 6 ON THE FREE MARKET

THE FREE MARKET IS the most transformative of economic systems. It fosters creativity and inventiveness. It produces new industries, products, and services, as it improves upon existing ones. With millions of individuals freely engaged in an infinite number and variety of transactions each day, it is impossible to even conceive all the changes and plans for changes occurring in our economy at any given time. The free market creates more wealth and opportunities for more people than any other economic model.

But the Conservative believes that the individual is more than a producer and consumer of material goods. He exists within the larger context of the civil society—which provides for an ordered liberty. The Conservative sees in the free market the harmony of interests and rules of cooperation that also underlie the civil society. For example, the free market promotes self-worth, self-sufficiency, shared values, and honest dealings, which enhance the individual, the family, and the community. It discriminates against no race, religion, or gender. The truck driver does not know the skin color of the individuals who produce the diesel fuel for his vehicle; the cook does not know the religion of the dairy farmers who supply milk to his restaurant; and the airline passenger does not know the gender of the factory workers who manufacture the commercial aircraft that transports him—nor do they care.

The free market is an intricate system of voluntary economic, social, and cultural interactions that are motivated by the desires and needs of the individual and the community. The Conservative believes that while the symmetry between the free market and the civil society is imperfect—that is, not all developments resulting from individual interactions contribute to the overall well-being of the civil society—one simply cannot exist without the other.

The key to understanding the free market is private property. Private property is the material manifestation of the individual’s labor—the material value created from the intellectual and/or physical labor of the individual, which may take the form of income, real property, or intellectual property. Just as life is finite, so, too, is the extent of one’s labor. Therefore, taxation of private property, or the regulation of such property so as to reduce its value, can become in effect a form of servitude, particularly if the dispossession results from illegitimate and arbitrary state action. Hence, the Conservative believes that the federal government should raise revenue only to fund those activities that the Constitution authorizes and no others. Otherwise, what are the limits on the Statist’s power to tax and regulate the individual’s labor and, ultimately, enslave him?

The Marxist class-struggle formulation, which pits the proletariat (“working class”) against the bourgeoisie (“wealthy merchant class”), still serves as the principal theoretical and rhetorical justification for the Statist’s assault on the free market. But it is an anathema to the free market in that the individual has unto himself the power to make of himself what he chooses. There is no static class structure layered atop the free market. The free market is a mutable, dynamic, and vibrant system of individual interactions that engages all aspects of the human character. For this reason, the Conservative believes the free market is a vital bulwark against statism. And it would appear the Statist agrees, for he is relentless in his assault on it. Indeed, the Statist’s rejection of the Constitution’s limits on federal power is justified primarily, albeit not exclusively, on material grounds.

...

Inasmuch as economic equality is unachievable, even in the most repressive socialist states, it serves the Statist’s purpose to contrive a class system in which individuals are grouped by officially sanctioned, arbitrary economic categories. In this way, the Statist stirs up class envy. The free market is, therefore, said to be incapable of serving the public interest, for it produces unjust results, thereby requiring further government intervention. The Statist also attempts to manipulate the intensity of the “class struggle” by routinely redefining terms and categories of wealth—who qualifies as the detested “rich,” the righteous “middle class,” and the disenfranchised “poor.”
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-31-2009, 07:48 PM
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If I remember correctly, this country was founded in order to escape the domination of old King Georgie the 3rd...However, that being said, this country has always been quick to share the same values of emperialism that Great Britian espoused. Manifest Destiney is a great example of those values. There are more examples I could site, but you get the point! Do I think that this country was founded on greed? Not necessarily...greed has been around and will continue to be until the end of time. Does this mean capitalism is bad? Not so much...

"The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.” ~ Karl Marx
"FUCK PEACE!!" ~ me
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