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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Are you smarter than our politician's ?

1. Could the "Stimulus" package have been put in better hands?

It was given to banks, some of them did not need it, and they still clamped up and would not loan anything out. This did not seem to help.

If this money was put into the hands of legal Americans, where do your think we would be now?

What do people do when they have money to blow?
If they did spend it, how would that help manufactures?

Now, if you can see this logic, tell me how our representatives can be this stupid?

Now the thing about that, do you really believe they got where they are by being stupid?

So if they are not stupid, why are they doing what they are doing?

Warning, if this got you to thinking, and you actually do research, and come to any logical conclusion, you are now a conspiracy theorist!
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All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 04:44 PM
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It was handed to the worst possible people of all. It was a sham from the jump.

Our government needs our help, they have an addiction. Our government is addicted to our money. Since they always have our best interest at heart it's time we return the favor. We need to have an intervention, for the governments own good of course. It's just irresponsible for us to let people with a known money addiction continue to handle our money. Lets have an intervention now so we can help these sick individuals.
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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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I expected you to say that.

I'm inviting a liberal or two, to try and convince me "it's all still good"



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazz007 View Post
If this money was put into the hands of legal Americans, where do your think we would be now?

Probably at a higher inflation rate than that seen in some countries in Africa.

Edit: And you don't put an apostrophe on a non possessive word.

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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Taylor View Post

Edit: And you don't put an apostrophe on a non possessive word.
I really don't give a rats ass about apostrophe's


Try debating the subject instead of trying to make your self feel better by pointing out others flaws.


Explain why giving money to people that would spend it, would cause inflation. And how them spending it would not help out the manufactures making the product please.

It is our money any way!

I did not say PRINT MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR. <----- This causes Hyper inflation.



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 09:09 PM
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Diggin' the picture and Taylor is a fucking dumbass.

Lastly, the politicians are doing what they do. They could care less as to whether or not it's actually good for the country. They, after all, are rich and will retire to other countries when the time is nigh, leaving the rest of us in the cess pool they created and subsequently left behind...
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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 09:17 PM
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Explain why giving money to people that would spend it, would cause inflation.
If you don't understand how people spending money doesn't cause inflation... well... the debate is over because you don't understand the debate.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 09:21 PM
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Explain why giving money to people that would spend it, would cause inflation.
Lmfao...
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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 09:26 PM
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If you don't understand how people spending money doesn't cause inflation... well... the debate is over because you don't understand the debate.
Ouch. Burn. Zing. Etc...
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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2009, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tazz007 View Post
I really don't give a rats ass about apostrophe's


Try debating the subject instead of trying to make your self feel better by pointing out others flaws.


Explain why giving money to people that would spend it, would cause inflation.

LOL

For one, I did debate the subject at hand. If you want to talk about who is smarter than someone else you may want to work on your basic grammar a little.

If you don't understand how simply giving money to the population would cause inflation then nothing I can tell you would make you understand. It's simple supply-and-demand economics (IIRC demand-pull inflation is the exact term for it but I may be wrong). You should probably educate yourself on it.

Also, a lot of that bailout money was printed exclusively to be used as bailout money so yes, it would cause rapid inflation if put in the hands of all U.S. citizens.


Last edited by Taylor; 07-19-2009 at 10:51 PM.
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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
LOL

For one, I did debate the subject at hand. If you want to talk about who is smarter than someone else you may want to work on your basic grammar a little.

If you don't understand how simply giving money to the population would cause inflation then nothing I can tell you would make you understand. It's simple supply-and-demand economics (IIRC demand-pull inflation is the exact term for it but I may be wrong). You should probably educate yourself on it.

Also, a lot of that bailout money was printed exclusively to be used as bailout money so yes, it would cause rapid inflation if put in the hands of all U.S. citizens.
There you go again. Put some one else down to either draw attention to something other than the subject. Or just to make your self feel better.

OK first off. I am working on my grammar. But you try reading like this, asd uob,;iahsd, njjfdv, and see how long it takes you to learn.

2nd. You did not debate anything. Yes printing money and given to any one will cause inflation. Doing it the way they did. It will be worse. For one simple reason. The dollar is no longer based on Gold. So printing money is like splitting stocks. You have twice as much, worth the exact dollar amount before you split it. So now it takes twice as much stock to buy product "X" after the stock is split. Printing money is the exact same thing. Get it?

My point........ The stimulus should not have happened at all. But if it just had to happen, giving tons of money to any company that is hording it,(not loaning it out) is a stupid idea. It would have been put to better use if it had been given back to the people it belonged to in the first place!

And to borrow from your snide comment.

If you don't get it by now, you never will.



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 07:24 PM
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well i agree with one thing, the stimulus shouldnt have happened. The people didnt want it to happen but the lobbyists were able to use scare tactics and get it.

The whole stimulus thing is a relic from when america actually made goods. It worked to get money flowing again in our closed economy. In the globalized today, all we would be doing is shipping it overseas and that is if people actually spent it. Most people arent gonna go out and buy a TV when they are worried if they are gonna have a job next week

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Slammy View Post
well i agree with one thing, the stimulus shouldnt have happened. The people didnt want it to happen but the lobbyists were able to use scare tactics and get it.

The whole stimulus thing is a relic from when america actually made goods. It worked to get money flowing again in our closed economy. In the globalized today, all we would be doing is shipping it overseas and that is if people actually spent it. Most people arent gonna go out and buy a TV when they are worried if they are gonna have a job next week
Now thats what I'm talking about! I would give you the clap, but I do not see that smiley here.

You proved my point wrong.

So, the only smart option was to do nothing. And this my friend is exactly what the feds. job is when it comes to private industry!



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tazz007 View Post
Now thats what I'm talking about! I would give you the clap, but I do not see that smiley here.

You proved my point wrong.

So, the only smart option was to do nothing. And this my friend is exactly what the feds. job is when it comes to private industry!
You can keep the clap all to yourself buddy!

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 08:06 PM
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 08:30 PM
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2nd. You did not debate anything. Yes printing money and given to any one will cause inflation. Doing it the way they did. It will be worse. For one simple reason. The dollar is no longer based on Gold. So printing money is like splitting stocks. You have twice as much, worth the exact dollar amount before you split it. So now it takes twice as much stock to buy product "X" after the stock is split. Printing money is the exact same thing. Get it?

My point........ The stimulus should not have happened at all. But if it just had to happen, giving tons of money to any company that is hording it,(not loaning it out) is a stupid idea. It would have been put to better use if it had been given back to the people it belonged to in the first place!

If you don't get it by now, you never will.
Printing money does not cause inflation. Inflation is caused by an economy "heating up"...too many dollars chasing too few goods. I don't think inflation is a huge concern right now. It's gonna be pretty hard to have inflation with underemployment at or near the 20% mark, unemployment in double digits, wages staying stagnant or decreasing, and with an average work week that is the lowest it's been in decades. Throwing it to people to spend would cause massive inflation...that is, if they would have even spent it. The savings rate has skyrocketed the last few months, which is a good thing in the long run, but will make any recovery even that much more lengthy.
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 09:01 PM
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Printing money does not cause inflation. Inflation is caused by an economy "heating up"...too many dollars chasing too few goods. I don't think inflation is a huge concern right now. It's gonna be pretty hard to have inflation with underemployment at or near the 20% mark, unemployment in double digits, wages staying stagnant or decreasing, and with an average work week that is the lowest it's been in decades. Throwing it to people to spend would cause massive inflation...that is, if they would have even spent it. The savings rate has skyrocketed the last few months, which is a good thing in the long run, but will make any recovery even that much more lengthy.
I believe the OP is forgetting what happened the last time money was "handed" to people. It's basically the credit crunch we're in now. There were too many people "given money" that shouldn't have been able to qualify for it. There were tons of double income families rolling two new cars with $30K+ notes on each of them and then buying $250K plus homes all on a combined income of $50-60K. Distributing bail out money to the public would have been even dumber than what happened. You can give me $250K, and I'll do my part to fix the problem -- pay off any debt I have and then bury the rest in some stable account.

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 09:31 PM
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I believe the OP is forgetting what happened the last time money was "handed" to people. It's basically the credit crunch we're in now. There were too many people "given money" that shouldn't have been able to qualify for it. There were tons of double income families rolling two new cars with $30K+ notes on each of them and then buying $250K plus homes all on a combined income of $50-60K. Distributing bail out money to the public would have been even dumber than what happened. You can give me $250K, and I'll do my part to fix the problem -- pay off any debt I have and then bury the rest in some stable account.

Do me a favor and explain to me the similarities between millions of illegal aliens receiving welfare and free medical etc and the people you speak of above receiving free money?

Aren't they one and the same?
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 09:50 PM
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Do me a favor and explain to me the similarities between millions of illegal aliens receiving welfare and free medical etc and the people you speak of above receiving free money?

Aren't they one and the same?
No, the people I'm referring to pay taxes and are here legally. They just make poor money decisions and trusted someone that told them they could afford something. Now, many of them are settling CC debt for pennies on the dollar and getting their mortgages adjusted, etc.

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 11:25 PM
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There you go again. Put some one else down to either draw attention to something other than the subject. Or just to make your self feel better.

OK first off. I am working on my grammar. But you try reading like this, asd uob,;iahsd, njjfdv, and see how long it takes you to learn.

2nd. You did not debate anything. Yes printing money and given to any one will cause inflation. Doing it the way they did. It will be worse. For one simple reason. The dollar is no longer based on Gold. So printing money is like splitting stocks. You have twice as much, worth the exact dollar amount before you split it. So now it takes twice as much stock to buy product "X" after the stock is split. Printing money is the exact same thing. Get it?

My point........ The stimulus should not have happened at all. But if it just had to happen, giving tons of money to any company that is hording it,(not loaning it out) is a stupid idea. It would have been put to better use if it had been given back to the people it belonged to in the first place!

And to borrow from your snide comment.

If you don't get it by now, you never will.
Backpedal some more pl0x

You asked what would happen if they put all that money in the hands of citizens. I answered your question. Don't try to flip what you asked around.

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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-20-2009, 11:50 PM
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Well let me see. Google says that the US population is about 306,000,000 at the moment. Take the $787,000,000,000 stimulus and divide it by the us population and that gives you about $2572.00 for every man, woman, and child if my math is correct (?). Now in my household there are 4 of us, so 4 * 2572 = 10,288.

I'm pretty dammed sure that if someone handed me $10k (or better yet cut my taxes by $10k) I could probably directly inject it into the economy a hell of a lot faster (and probably better) than the politicians are doing.
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 12:07 AM
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They just put $80K in debt in the pocket of each tax paying citizen or more.

Printing money does cause inflation.... the rate that inflation hits is dependent on how fast that money is spent. Inflation is going up right now, the Fed just isn't reporting it.

You think inflation isn't on the upswing? Then take a look at the value of a dollar to other currencies over the past year. Sure the savings rate is up, but the dollar you are saving isn't even the same dollar it was a year ago. We are printing money all the while the economy is in a downward spiral and so is the currencies core value.

The day has finally arrived.... the average citizen of the world is now smarter than the average American. We gave up our competitive advantage a long time ago.

All that has to happen for us to be turned into a 3rd world country with no economy and no jobs and no food is for China to ask for it's money back.

Now you ask how did this happen? It happened because the average American was duped by a two party system. The two parties represent themselves and not the American people. They exist for their own means and purposes.

Show me where the two party system is in The Constitution of the United States.

If you think Bush is to blame, you are a total moron. If you think Obama is to blame, you are also a total moron. Both of them passed this stimulus, and the deregulation of the previous Republican and Democratic administrations going back to Clinton made it a necessity so they claim.

The only thing that can fix this sinking ship is to make our government a government by the people for the people..... and that ain't gonna happen if you have any allegiance to either party.

You want this problem fixed? Fire them all, and repeal all constitutional amendments 16 and later. You need to elect an entirely new legislature and executive branch that has no ties to either party in order to fire them.

Now what do you think the chances are of actually fixing the problem given the average American has been duped into voting for a President that cares more about loving Iran and extending a hand in friendship to them than he cares about the unemployed people starving at home while their children die overseas fighting for freedom for people that don't want freedom?

And you guys are arguing over whether or not inflation is happening.... According to our government, no.... according to the people in Japan, EU and China based on currency values, yes. And then you are arguing over whether or not Obama is the problem. He's just a symptom of a problem that has spun out of control since the 16th amendment was passed.

The only things of any value available in the US currently are silver, gold and brass. If you are investing in companies that all farmed their work out to China, Mexico, Taiwan, Korea, India, etc.... well you'll learn your lesson hard enough and soon enough.

Our economy and business model of farming everything out failed the American people. Our goverment has taxed it to death to feed their own overgrown monster. Tossing billions at it won't fix anything but will only delay reality. Recreating the same economy will not fix squat. Until the US has a manufacturing base again, our economy will stay in the dumps.

Maybe someday we can fulfill Obama's goal and become the 3rd world labor source for China after all....
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
No, the people I'm referring to pay taxes and are here legally. They just make poor money decisions and trusted someone that told them they could afford something. Now, many of them are settling CC debt for pennies on the dollar and getting their mortgages adjusted, etc.



Are you REALLY using that as an excuse? *Most* of those fuckers knew what they were getting themselves in to. There was a saying I learned from my father, and you probably learned from your father, so on and so forth. "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." EVERYTHING comes with a price. Nothing is free. And if someone tells you "Yeah, you can get in this $500,000 house for $3000/month, no problems!" you should know something was up. It's called common sense and personal responsibility.


Anyone who claims that they were a victim of predatory lending, by way of an ARM loan, gets ZERO sympathy from me. You had time to read the documents. You had time to research your options. And if you signed on the dotted line with the first or even second bank you talked to, you're just a goddamned idiot. I'm of the opinion that the 'victims' of 'predatory lending' are victims in everything they do or don't do in life. Always passing the blame on to others.

Notice I put 'most' in asterisks up there. Ignorance isn't an excuse. With all the information widely available at your fingertips, you have no excuse. Accept that you (not you personally) fell for it, hook, line, and sinker; and move the fuck on.


Why the fuck should I be on the hook for someone else's financial fuck ups? I've made my own, and been forced to learn from them. When you keep bailing someone out, they never learn a lesson.
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 01:46 AM
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Until the US has a manufacturing base again, our economy will stay in the dumps.

.
I really like the way you think.

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....LMAO @.... trying to figure out how to make a Utopian society!
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 02:41 AM
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Exactly. There isn't predatory lending. Everything was in the contract. Interest only loans? Your fault. ARMS that reset with skyrocketing rates? Y our fault. Living in a house you damn well know you can't afford? Your fault.
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
No, the people I'm referring to pay taxes and are here legally. They just make poor money decisions and trusted someone that told them they could afford something. Now, many of them are settling CC debt for pennies on the dollar and getting their mortgages adjusted, etc.
No, these guys DIDN'T pay taxes. They may have FILED their taxes, but I promise they didn't PAY taxes. Big difference.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 08:56 AM
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Are you REALLY using that as an excuse? *Most* of those fuckers knew what they were getting themselves in to. There was a saying I learned from my father, and you probably learned from your father, so on and so forth. "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." EVERYTHING comes with a price. Nothing is free. And if someone tells you "Yeah, you can get in this $500,000 house for $3000/month, no problems!" you should know something was up. It's called common sense and personal responsibility.


Anyone who claims that they were a victim of predatory lending, by way of an ARM loan, gets ZERO sympathy from me. You had time to read the documents. You had time to research your options. And if you signed on the dotted line with the first or even second bank you talked to, you're just a goddamned idiot. I'm of the opinion that the 'victims' of 'predatory lending' are victims in everything they do or don't do in life. Always passing the blame on to others.

Notice I put 'most' in asterisks up there. Ignorance isn't an excuse. With all the information widely available at your fingertips, you have no excuse. Accept that you (not you personally) fell for it, hook, line, and sinker; and move the fuck on.


Why the fuck should I be on the hook for someone else's financial fuck ups? I've made my own, and been forced to learn from them. When you keep bailing someone out, they never learn a lesson.
You see, I 100% agree with you, but it doesn't change the fact they were still "given" free money and are now defaulting on it. There's a reason I have 4 cars and a nice, modest house. It's because all the cars are old and paid for and my house is well within our affordable range. During the boom (and I was doing very well with my company), everyone kept asking the wife and I when we were going to move to town and buy such and such house... I wouldn't budge because I didn't want to be leveraged that much. Now all those people that did are screwed. Meanwhile I'm still sitting on my nice patio sipping a cool Newcastle and shaking my head at them.

Those people made terrible, terrible decisions. There may be a few cases where some were mentally incapable of understanding what they were doing, but most should have known. Their stupidity isn't an excuse. The bad thing is that we're all paying for it in the form of fees, increased property tax rates, increased utility fees, etc. along with decreased property values. It's a good thing I planned.

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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 08:57 AM
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No, these guys DIDN'T pay taxes. They may have FILED their taxes, but I promise they didn't PAY taxes. Big difference.
They paid taxes. If they draw a wage, they pay taxes.

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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 09:58 AM
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I think the Bush stimulus package is starting to come around, with the banks starting to pay that money back. With the Obama plan, I think the dems shot themselves in the foot with to much government red tape, so far they have only been able to spend a little over 6% of it.

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
They paid taxes. If they draw a wage, they pay taxes.
Sure, they paid taxes. Then they got it back in a form of tax return at the end of the year. Like I said, there is a difference in filing taxes and paying taxes.
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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobba Fett View Post
Sure, they paid taxes. Then they got it back in a form of tax return at the end of the year. Like I said, there is a difference in filing taxes and paying taxes.
Are you that stupid? If they overpaid, then yes, they get some back just like anyone else that overpaid -- in the form of a return. It's how the system works. If you want to bitch people not paying taxes, find some corporate execs that hide money offshore and use every loophole possible including starting shady companies just to keep from paying taxes.

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by forever_frost View Post
Exactly. There isn't predatory lending. Everything was in the contract. Interest only loans? Your fault. ARMS that reset with skyrocketing rates? Y our fault. Living in a house you damn well know you can't afford? Your fault.
Yes, yes, and yes.

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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 11:54 AM
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Oh, and if you put 24" wheels on a Caprice, you should never be allowed to own a house, ever
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 12:41 PM
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Oh, and if you put 24" wheels on a Caprice, you should never be allowed to own a house, ever
What about on a Festiva?

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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 02:00 PM
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Nah, we all know Festivas rock and are like Pintos and should be given the respect it deserves. Seriously. If you're man enough to drive around in a Pepsi can with a gas tank that is looking for a reason to explode, I will give you props.

The democrats demanded that those who couldn't afford houses get them, that they be able to have the American dream. That dream comes with an obligation. Unfortuantely, everyone wants the rights, but not the responsibility.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
Are you that stupid? If they overpaid, then yes, they get some back just like anyone else that overpaid -- in the form of a return. It's how the system works. If you want to bitch people not paying taxes, find some corporate execs that hide money offshore and use every loophole possible including starting shady companies just to keep from paying taxes.
No, are you that FUCKING STUPID? You damn drones blame corporate and want to tax the hell outta them, then get mad when they start business off shore.

Are you that FUCKING STUPID that you believe this whole housing bust was because people were living outside their means?


How much you want to bet that these guys who couldn't get a conventional loan, also recieved earned income credit??? I'm willing to bet that the number is large.
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 04:02 PM
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No, are you that FUCKING STUPID? You damn drones blame corporate and want to tax the hell outta them, then get mad when they start business off shore.

Are you that FUCKING STUPID that you believe this whole housing bust was because people were living outside their means?


How much you want to bet that these guys who couldn't get a conventional loan, also recieved earned income credit??? I'm willing to bet that the number is large.
You need to slow down a bit and chill. I didn't blame corporate for anything. Reread. I didn't say "tax the hell out of them" either. I do believe that if you earn income either here or abroad that you should be taxed on it. If you're doing business here, then you play by the rules set forth here and benefit from the laws and rules governing business. Therefore you should pay a portion of the taxes. Companies that hide money should pay a share of taxes on it. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. I don't hide money; neither should they.

Secondly, yes, the housing mess was created by all the bad loans -- people could all of a sudden buy houses that couldn't before. Nevermind the fact that they really couldn't pay for them. They had a loan. Next up, every developer and builder around rushed to capitalize on it. Houses were being flipped 5 times before anyone ever moved into them. The big builders were putting them up so fast that they had no idea the real costs of the structure. Prices continued to rise and at too rapid of a pace. No one cared because they had a loan and the economy was good.

Now fast forward to today. All those bad loans are taking over. People can't pay their mortgage and are losing their homes. Others wishing to buy are having trouble getting financing because the banks won't loan money (they're having trouble making a profit for some reason. I wonder why?). Meanwhile a surplus of empty houses develops because the building community couldn't just turn the switch off. Add in several foreclosures, and all of a sudden you have home prices falling. To make it worse, anyone on an ARM now ran the risk of the loan value being way more than the new price of the home. In other words, they couldn't get out of the loan because of negative equity.

You can scream EIC all you want, but that has nothing to do with it. In fact, bad loans and the housing crash have nothing to do with people that make a wage paying taxes. I'm just explaining this to you so you'll understand.

As for paying taxes or not...again, if you drew a wage, you paid taxes. If not, you will be caught...eventually.

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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2009, 04:29 PM
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Actually, I draw a wage and am tax exempt. According to the IRS over 40% of Americans do not pay taxes, which means everyone else's taxes go up accordingly. Add in illegals and that has to be closer to 50%
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
You need to slow down a bit and chill. I didn't blame corporate for anything. Reread. I didn't say "tax the hell out of them" either. I do believe that if you earn income either here or abroad that you should be taxed on it. If you're doing business here, then you play by the rules set forth here and benefit from the laws and rules governing business. Therefore you should pay a portion of the taxes. Companies that hide money should pay a share of taxes on it. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. I don't hide money; neither should they.
Quote:
If you want to bitch people not paying taxes, find some corporate execs that hide money offshore and use every loophole possible including starting shady companies just to keep from paying taxes.
Sounds to me like you are blaming corporate America. You didn't name any specific corp; you just said corporate. Either way, I would like to know, do you believe in a progressive income tax then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiceweezl
Secondly, yes, the housing mess was created by all the bad loans -- people could all of a sudden buy houses that couldn't before. Nevermind the fact that they really couldn't pay for them. They had a loan. Next up, every developer and builder around rushed to capitalize on it. Houses were being flipped 5 times before anyone ever moved into them. The big builders were putting them up so fast that they had no idea the real costs of the structure. Prices continued to rise and at too rapid of a pace. No one cared because they had a loan and the economy was good.

Now fast forward to today. All those bad loans are taking over. People can't pay their mortgage and are losing their homes. Others wishing to buy are having trouble getting financing because the banks won't loan money (they're having trouble making a profit for some reason. I wonder why?). Meanwhile a surplus of empty houses develops because the building community couldn't just turn the switch off. Add in several foreclosures, and all of a sudden you have home prices falling. To make it worse, anyone on an ARM now ran the risk of the loan value being way more than the new price of the home. In other words, they couldn't get out of the loan because of negative equity.
Yes Juice, you are correct in explaining the end result, but you don't know how this all began and that's why you are blaming the people, not the government. What you explained is the result of bad regulation and bad moves of past administrations, and not just the actions of the people making bad decisions. I am going to paste this just for you and all to read.

From Mark Levin's Liberty and Tyranny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty and Tyranny, Chapter 6
Consider the four basic events that led to the housing bust of 2008, which spread to the financial markets and beyond:

EVENT 1: In 1977, Congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) to address alleged discrimination by banks in making loans to poor people and minorities in the inner cities (redlining). The act provided that banks have “an affirmative obligation” to meet the credit needs of the communities in which they are chartered.8 In 1989, Congress amended the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act requiring banks to collect racial data on mortgage applications.9 University of Texas economics professor Stan Liebowitz has written that “minority mortgage applications were rejected more frequently than other applications, but the overwhelming reason wasn’t racial discrimination, but simply that minorities tend to have weaker finances.”10 Liebowitz also condemns a 1992 study conducted by the Boston Federal Reserve Bank that alleged systemic discrimination. “That study was tremendously flawed. A colleague and I…showed that the data it had used contained thousands of egregious typos, such as loans with negative interest rates. Our study found no evidence of discrimination.”11 However, the study became the standard on which government policy was based.

In 1995, the Clinton administration’s Treasury Department issued regulations tracking loans by neighborhoods, income groups, and races to rate the performance of banks. The ratings were used by regulators to determine whether the government would approve bank mergers, acquisitions, and new branches.12 The regulations also encouraged statist-aligned groups, such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and the Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America, to file petitions with regulators, or threaten to, to slow or even prevent banks from conducting their business by challenging the extent to which banks were issuing these loans. With such powerful leverage over banks, some groups were able, in effect, to legally extort banks to make huge pools of money available to the groups, money they in turn used to make loans. The banks and community groups issued loans to low-income individuals who often had bad credit or insufficient income. And these loans, which became known as “subprime” loans, made available 100 percent financing, did not always require the use of credit scores, and were even made without documenting income.13 Therefore, the government insisted that banks, particularly those that wanted to expand, abandon traditional underwriting standards. One estimate puts the figure of CRA-eligible loans at $4.5 trillion.14

EVENT 2: In 1992, the Department of Housing and Urban Development pressured two government-chartered corporations—known as Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae—to purchase (or “securitize”) large bundles of these loans for the conflicting purposes of diversifying the risk and making even more money available to banks to make further risky loans. Congress also passed the Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act, eventually mandating that these companies buy 45 percent of all loans from people of low and moderate incomes.15 Consequently, a secondary market was created for these loans. And in 1995, the Treasury Department established the Community Development Financial Institutions Fund, which provided banks with tax dollars to encourage even more risky loans.

For the Statist, however, this still was not enough. Top congressional Democrats, including Representative Barney Frank (Massachusetts), Senator Christopher Dodd (Connecticut), and Senator Charles Schumer (New York), among others, repeatedly ignored warnings of pending disaster, insisting that they were overstated, and opposed efforts to force Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to comply with usual business and oversight practices.16 And the top executives of these corporations, most of whom had worked in or with Democratic administrations, resisted reform while they were actively cooking the books in order to award themselves tens of millions of dollars in bonuses.17

EVENT 3: A by-product of this government intervention and social engineering was a financial instrument called the “derivative,” which turned the subprime mortgage market into a ticking time bomb that would magnify the housing bust by orders of magnitude. A derivative is a contract where one party sells the risk associated with the mortgage to another party in exchange for payments to that company based on the value of the mortgage. In some cases, investors who did not even make the loans would bet on whether the loans would be subject to default. Although imprecise, perhaps derivatives in this context can best be understood as a form of insurance. Derivatives allowed commercial and investment banks, individual companies, and private investors to further spread—and ultimately multiply—the risk associated with their mortgages. Certain financial and insurance institutions invested heavily in derivatives, such as American International Group (AIG).18

EVENT 4: The Federal Reserve Board’s role in the housing boom-and-bust cannot be overstated. The Pacific Research Institute’s Robert P. Murphy explains that “[the Federal Reserve] slashed interest rates repeatedly starting in January 2001, from 6.5 percent until they reached a low in June 2003 of 1.0 percent. (In nominal terms, this was the lowest the target rate had been in the entire data series maintained by the St. Louis Federal Reserve, going back to 1982)…. When the easy-money policy became too inflationary for comfort, the Fed (under [Alan] Greenspan and then new Chairman Ben Bernanke at the end) began a steady process of raising interest rates back up, from 1.0 percent in June 2004 to 5.25 percent in June 2006….”19 Therefore, when the Federal Reserve abandoned its role as steward of the monetary system and used interest rates to artificially and inappropriately manipulate the housing market, it interfered with normal market conditions and contributed to destabilizing the economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiceweezl
You can scream EIC all you want, but that has nothing to do with it. In fact, bad loans and the housing crash have nothing to do with people that make a wage paying taxes. I'm just explaining this to you so you'll understand.

As for paying taxes or not...again, if you drew a wage, you paid taxes. If not, you will be caught...eventually.
My point wasn't that EIC = housing bust. My point was that EIC = probably didn't pay income tax, but instead got what they paid into the system back in the form of a credit. If you got a loan from a bank that you didn't qualify for in the first place, but b/c the government forced these banks to make the loan anyway, more than likely you didn't pay taxes, b/c you got that money back in the form of a credit (based on theory that if you don't make enough to get a morgage, your below federal poverty level.) Comprende?
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by forever_frost View Post
Actually, I draw a wage and am tax exempt. According to the IRS over 40% of Americans do not pay taxes, which means everyone else's taxes go up accordingly. Add in illegals and that has to be closer to 50%
At least someone here gets it....
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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 10:15 AM
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I loved Liberty and Tyranny and have passed my copy on to a lib who I'm hoping sees the light.

And I'm just pointing out that Juice was wrong. I'm 100% service connected and there are a rising number of people just like me and will be as long as this war continues. That "nonpaying" part is steadily rising
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by forever_frost View Post
I loved Liberty and Tyranny and have passed my copy on to a lib who I'm hoping sees the light.

And I'm just pointing out that Juice was wrong. I'm 100% service connected and there are a rising number of people just like me and will be as long as this war continues. That "nonpaying" part is steadily rising
Gald to hear from another Levin fan!

You make a good point. Maybe I should have corrected my statement to base off the fact that 40% of Americans don't pay taxes, instead of going by the people that earn an EIC credit.
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 11:03 AM
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Levin, Hannity, Wilkow...all damn fine men in my book.

So, you have 60% ish of Americans paying for 100% of Americans with the top 5% paying 85% of that bill. Then you punish them by increasing taxes to 99% of that bill so they just leave taking out that tax base which leaves the country bankrupt.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by forever_frost View Post
Levin, Hannity, Wilkow...all damn fine men in my book.

So, you have 60% ish of Americans paying for 100% of Americans with the top 5% paying 85% of that bill. Then you punish them by increasing taxes to 99% of that bill so they just leave taking out that tax base which leaves the country bankrupt.
You got it. And the ones that stay in business: these tax increases will be passed on to the consumers in one form or another. It's the only way to continue to stay in business.

TRICKLE UP PROVERTY. I heard this term on Savage Nation. Perfect fit to describe what is taking place.
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-22-2009, 01:31 PM
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Now you ask how did this happen? It happened because the average American was duped by a two party system. The two parties represent themselves and not the American people. They exist for their own means and purposes.

Show me where the two party system is in The Constitution of the United States.

If you think Bush is to blame, you are a total moron. If you think Obama is to blame, you are also a total moron. Both of them passed this stimulus, and the deregulation of the previous Republican and Democratic administrations going back to Clinton made it a necessity so they claim.

The only thing that can fix this sinking ship is to make our government a government by the people for the people..... and that ain't gonna happen if you have any allegiance to either party.
Well said.
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