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post #1 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Mandatory Blood Draws being expanded...

by the legislature. It is almost like I knew this was coming when I claimed it would be expanded and the appeals by defense lawyers to search warrants would be futile.

Mandatory DWI blood draws to expand in Texas

FORT WORTH — A Fourth of July weekend operation that made it easier for police to draw blood from suspected drunken drivers may be a glimpse of things to come.

State lawmakers have expanded the types of cases requiring mandatory blood draws without a search warrant. Cases included starting Sept. 1 are felony DWI cases, suspected drunken-driving accidents where someone is injured and transported for medical treatment and cases when a person is arrested on suspicion of drunken driving with a child younger than 15 in the vehicle.

Previously, the law only required a mandatory blood draw when a person was arrested on suspicion of intoxication manslaughter, or suspected of being over the legal 0.08 percent limit and an accident victim was expected to die.

Assistant District Attorney Richard Alpert, who specializes in alcohol-related cases, expects the number of mandatory blood draws in Tarrant County to jump from 50 to 60 a year to more than 800, based on the new requirements.

"I view the last several years as a dress rehearsal for a change in the law," he said, referring to police operations like the recent "No Refusal" weekend in which prosecutors hired nurses to help with the blood draws and magistrate judges were available to sign search warrants to take the blood evidence.

Waiting in line

It cost the county about $3,000 to have nurses available across the county during the holiday weekend operation; money for the program came from forfeiture funds.

But police are unsure where they will take those people arrested who need blood drawn after Sept. 1, or how they will pay for the additional mandatory blood draws and the additional laboratory costs.

The changes, enacted in Senate Bill 328, will require more police to process suspected drunken drivers, nearly double the number of lab tests for alcohol-related cases, and will increase the number of people waiting in jail for those test results.

Still some police say they welcome the changes in the law because it will allow them to collect blood evidence in certain cases without a search warrant.

"The benefits are tremendous because blood cases are much sturdier . . . and increase the quality of our cases in the court system," said Fort Worth police Capt. Gene Jones, a traffic division commander. "We don’t know yet how we will accommodate the increase in blood draws, but it’s all part of doing business, in the same way we pay to process other evidence."

Budget considerations

Arlington police are studying how the changes will affect their budget or their contractual agreement with Medical Center of Arlington to perform the blood draws for alcohol-related cases.

"We haven’t decided yet how we are going to handle this," Arlington police spokeswoman Tiara Ellis said. "We’ll have to look at the number of cases from previous years that might give us an idea of how many more blood draws we will have to do."

Most police agencies in the county pay the Tarrant County medical examiner’s office to perform the lab tests. They cost $250 per test and can take up to six weeks, although some cases can be turned around in a couple of weeks.

"Our workload is going to increase quite a bit," said Linda Anderson, spokeswoman for the office. "We’re still looking at how all of the additional tests will impact our operation."

ANTHONY SPANGLER, 817-390-7420

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post #2 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 01:06 PM
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post #3 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 01:35 PM
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Retarded, why not just stay with the breathalizer?

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post #4 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 02:21 PM
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Retarded, why not just stay with the breathalizer?
Because people could refuse to take it so they found away around it.
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post #5 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 02:58 PM
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We need to start raising hell about this. First time someone gets AIDS from a city trying to cut costs by 'accidentally' using the same needles there is going to be hell to pay. That's if you can prove that's where you got it.

4th amendment is there for a reason. This needs to be challenged.
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post #6 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 03:06 PM
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This MADD stuff is getting crazy.
In theory, I'm as much against drunk driving as the next person, but where is all the testing equipment for the millions of elderly currently driving while taking prescriptions which state "Do not operate a vehicle or heavy machinery"?

One drug is as good as the other....

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post #7 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Since the Constitution prefers that any searches be done pursuant to a warrant and this system is doing just that, what is the main objection you guys have:

Is is using the very legal search warrant on DWI or using search warrants for ANY crime?

I see people complain about warrantless searches when the officer smells marijuana and kind of see the argument although i disagree with it, but now we get a warrant and people still complain. I don;t get that.

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post #8 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 05:42 PM
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I think it has more to do with the fith amendment, somthing about Self incrimination.

This is my only problem with the blood draws.




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post #9 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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I think it has more to do with the fith amendment, somthing about Self incrimination.

This is my only problem with the blood draws.
Okay, does it apply to all cases where blood search warrants are used, or just DWI's?

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post #10 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 06:05 PM
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Okay, does it apply to all cases where blood search warrants are used, or just DWI's?
I can see where you are going with this and that is a great question, but according to Alan Saxe (a very well know government proff) and his veiws of the Constitution, its illegal as fugg to use one's self, meaning body and or parts of that body to incriminate him/her self.

I remeber him saying that all its going to take is one brave lawyer to take this to the top.




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post #11 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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I can see where you are going with this and that is a great question, but according to Alan Saxe (a very well know government proff) and his veiws of the Constitution, its illegal as fugg to use one's self, meaning body and or parts of that body to incriminate him/her self.

I remeber him saying that all its going to take is one brave lawyer to take this to the top.
LMAO! Why haven't these brave defense lawyers and professors been taking these evidentiary search warrants to court for the last 100+ years or so?

I know the answer, it is because they will look like a complete idiot to try and argue against evidentiary search warrants during a criminal case. Defense attorneys scream that we (cops) should get search warrants when we do a search without one, and then when we get a SW, they claim it is illegal or improper.

Criminal defense lawyers are like prostitutes, the more you pay them the more they will do for you!

BTW, if you know where I am going with my question, why don't you understand how stupid that professors argument was?

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post #12 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticcobrakilla View Post
I can see where you are going with this and that is a great question, but according to Alan Saxe (a very well know government proff) and his veiws of the Constitution, its illegal as fugg to use one's self, meaning body and or parts of that body to incriminate him/her self.

I remeber him saying that all its going to take is one brave lawyer to take this to the top.
Does that include DNA tests?
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post #13 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 06:21 PM
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LOL @ the prostitutes

I agree with you that the blood draws SHOULD be done to nail drunk drivers, rapists, ect

Stepping on OUR rights and dissregarding the Constitution is a whole other ball of wax.




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post #14 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 06:51 PM
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I thought it was all about drawing blood WITHOUT a warrant.....

Quote:
State lawmakers have expanded the types of cases requiring mandatory blood draws without a search warrant.
Unless I'm missing something.... which I probably am....

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post #15 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Does that include DNA tests?
LOL, at the city paying $600 or so for a DNA test when they are already balking at the $100 or so it costs for just the BAC test.

I am pretty sure we do not even do DNA on every felony yet, so going to every DWI would be a stretch I bet. I would have a pretty serious problem with doing a DNA test when the DNA test is not relevant to the criminal case, especially if it was done at arrest and before conviction. The SW specifically calls for BAC testing, not DNA.

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post #16 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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I thought it was all about drawing blood WITHOUT a warrant.....



Unless I'm missing something.... which I probably am....
Yes, I was speaking of mandatory blood draw as equal to SW's since there is a difference between searches without warrant and those with. The discussion is the same since a SW is equivalent to a legislaturely mandated search.

Right now we do blood SW's because only a DWI where a death or serious bodily injury has occurred requires a mandatory blood draw. When the legislature allows a mandatory blood draw, the SW requirement becomes moot.

Does anyone who objects to this expansion also object to the current mandatory blood draw on deaths and serious bodily injury cases invlving DWI"s?

How about if the mandatory BAC analysis was from a swab of saliva from the mouth and not a draw of blood?

I am really trying to find out where the objections are coming from.

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post #17 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 07:20 PM
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I like this legislation.
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post #18 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 07:23 PM
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Mandatory blood draws without a search warrant huh? Is this 1935 Nazi Germany?

The real debate about this begins when someone refuses, the cops do it anyway and they find nothing. Don't say it won't happen either, with 800 a year going on it is only a matter of time. Especially with the rocket scientists that pass for police in some of the small towns in this state.
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post #19 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 07:39 PM
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Mandatory blood draws without a search warrant huh? Is this 1935 Nazi Germany?
If you think you deserve any rights committing any of the acts necessary to even warrant the blood draw then you can go fuck yourself. You're infringing on the rights of others with that reckless shit.
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post #20 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 08:04 PM
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If you think you deserve any rights committing any of the acts necessary to even warrant the blood draw then you can go fuck yourself.
Weak argument

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post #21 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 08:13 PM
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And when it comes up with nothing? Then you just drew blood for zero reason
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post #22 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 08:26 PM
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Weak argument
Then you're probably not related to anyone who has been involved in an accident with a person DWI. When you drive on the road intoxicated you're infringing on the rights and LIVES of others to drive on the road without having to worry about you retards.

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And when it comes up with nothing? Then you just drew blood for zero reason
Did you even read the article? Do you understand under which circumstances they can draw blood? It's impossible to come up with nothing.
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post #23 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Mandatory blood draws without a search warrant huh? Is this 1935 Nazi Germany?

The real debate about this begins when someone refuses, the cops do it anyway and they find nothing. Don't say it won't happen either, with 800 a year going on it is only a matter of time. Especially with the rocket scientists that pass for police in some of the small towns in this state.
You may have answered this Al, but what is your main objection to this? Is it the blood draw or the charge of DWI mandating blood? Would it help if it was a saliva swab and not a needle that we would execute to get the BAC? Do you object to mandatory blood draws on cases involving SBI or death?

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post #24 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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And when it comes up with nothing? Then you just drew blood for zero reason

I am also curious about your answers to the question in post #23.

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post #25 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 10:31 PM
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Since the Constitution prefers that any searches be done pursuant to a warrant and this system is doing just that, what is the main objection you guys have:

Is is using the very legal search warrant on DWI or using search warrants for ANY crime?

I see people complain about warrantless searches when the officer smells marijuana and kind of see the argument although i disagree with it, but now we get a warrant and people still complain. I don;t get that.
Would it be possible to get a warrant saying that I could fuck a bitch, regardless of what she wished? Because on the most base level I equate the police penetrating my body without my consent to rape.

Not that the police give a damn what I think but...

Also, nice to have threads like this so that the law can have a bit of foresight into what possible defenses to prepare for...
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post #26 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Would it be possible to get a warrant saying that I could fuck a bitch, regardless of what she wished? Because on the most base level I equate the police penetrating my body without my consent to rape.

Not that the police give a damn what I think but...

Also, nice to have threads like this so that the law can have a bit of foresight into what possible defenses to prepare for...
I have never heard of a "fuck a bitch" warrant Mike.

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post #27 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 10:56 PM
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I have never heard of a "fuck a bitch" warrant Mike.


Sorry bro. Best analogy that I could come up with in a minute and a half of trying to equate these invasions of body to rape.

Hopefully that thought managed to make it through...
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post #28 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 11:20 PM
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My big issue is the fact that the police can take blood, penetrate your body against your will. I believe a swab should be illegal as well unless you agree. Don't want to take breathalizer or field subriety? Fine. You go to jail.

Unless there is a warrant, you shouldn't be swabbed. Hell, I strongly disagree with sticking anyone, as there is far too much chance of bloodborne disease transmission. You want to stick a druggie who's fighting you? Really? And if you stick him and accidently stick yourself because he's fighting? Or what about the cop with an STD or other disease that transmitts it to a person? happens in the VA quite often. You know what you hear? Oops.

You should never have your blood forcibly drawn. There are too many other methods, non intrusive to decide if someone is intoxicated.
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post #29 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 01:02 AM
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The thing that bothers me most about this deal is the "slippery slope" angle that it has. It's a very invasive procedure that is now mandatory. What's next? Roadside body cavity searches?
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post #30 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:23 AM
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If you think you deserve any rights committing any of the acts necessary to even warrant the blood draw then you can go fuck yourself. You're infringing on the rights of others with that reckless shit.
I think Al was very clear that he was talking about someone that is innocent but is forced into a blood draw anyways. Your argument is basically the old "if you didn't do anything, you've got nothing to worry about". As stated before, that is a weak argument.

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Would it be possible to get a warrant saying that I could fuck a bitch, regardless of what she wished? Because on the most base level I equate the police penetrating my body without my consent to rape.

Not that the police give a damn what I think but...

Also, nice to have threads like this so that the law can have a bit of foresight into what possible defenses to prepare for...
I think it would be a better analogy if the police were allowed to force a rape kit onto a possible rape victim so they can collect evidence. Even thought the woman is the victim, Police could argue that they need the evidence to capture the rapist before he can strike again. Of course the big difference here is that the woman in this example is the victim and not a alleged criminal. The similarity is that the police can conduct a search of a persons body to collect evidence whether without regard to consent. Another possible similarity is if the police are trying to prove a false rape allegation.

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The thing that bothers me most about this deal is the "slippery slope" angle that it has. It's a very invasive procedure that is now mandatory. What's next? Roadside body cavity searches?
I agree that this is a slippery slope. This is why I have been against many of the new powers that the Patriot Act granted law enforcement. We are slowly but steadily declining towards a police state. I don't specifically see police officers as the enemy but I do see government using them as a tool for oppression. Right now these new powers appear to be well intended and even justifiable to an extent. But we all know where the road of good intentions leads. ANY POWER that is granted to one person over another CAN and WILL be abused. It is only a matter of time.

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post #31 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:27 AM
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post #32 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 10:10 AM
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Since the Constitution prefers that any searches be done pursuant to a warrant and this system is doing just that, what is the main objection you guys have:

Is is using the very legal search warrant on DWI or using search warrants for ANY crime?

I see people complain about warrantless searches when the officer smells marijuana and kind of see the argument although i disagree with it, but now we get a warrant and people still complain. I don;t get that.

You worked in a sex crimes unit at one time didn't you? Penetration of one person by another person against the first persons will is rape in every circumstances.

A law can be passed that allows for legal rape of the citizenry by law enforcement but that doesn't make it "right". I personally believe that a forced blood draw is the same as a rape and will resist it at all cost.
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post #33 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 04:01 PM
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I think Al was very clear that he was talking about someone that is innocent but is forced into a blood draw anyways. Your argument is basically the old "if you didn't do anything, you've got nothing to worry about". As stated before, that is a weak argument.
Like I said, it's borderline impossible they can be innocent considering the circumstances under which it can be done.

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Cases included starting Sept. 1 are felony DWI cases, suspected drunken-driving accidents where someone is injured and transported for medical treatment and cases when a person is arrested on suspicion of drunken driving with a child younger than 15 in the vehicle.

Previously, the law only required a mandatory blood draw when a person was arrested on suspicion of intoxication manslaughter, or suspected of being over the legal 0.08 percent limit and an accident victim was expected to die.
In every case that they can draw blood there is already a lot of evidence that they are intoxicated and some sort of an extreme is involved (accident, kids in the car, etc.). You're making it sound like every person that gets pulled over for DWI can have their blood drawn when that is not the case. It has absolutely nothing to do with "if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about."
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post #34 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 04:38 PM
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Like I said, it's borderline impossible they can be innocent considering the circumstances under which it can be done.



In every case that they can draw blood there is already a lot of evidence that they are intoxicated and some sort of an extreme is involved (accident, kids in the car, etc.). You're making it sound like every person that gets pulled over for DWI can have their blood drawn when that is not the case. It has absolutely nothing to do with "if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about."

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post #35 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 04:42 PM
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Are you LE? Yes or no will suffice...
What is LE?
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post #36 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 05:39 PM
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post #37 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 05:45 PM
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post #38 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 06:44 PM
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i agree that this is a slippery slope. This is why i have been against many of the new powers that the patriot act granted law enforcement. We are slowly but steadily declining towards a police state. I don't specifically see police officers as the enemy but i do see government using them as a tool for oppression. Right now these new powers appear to be well intended and even justifiable to an extent. But we all know where the road of good intentions leads. Any power that is granted to one person over another can and will be abused. It is only a matter of time.
qft
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post #39 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 07:19 PM
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My big issue is the fact that the police can take blood, penetrate your body against your will. I believe a swab should be illegal as well unless you agree. Don't want to take breathalizer or field subriety? Fine. You go to jail.

Unless there is a warrant, you shouldn't be swabbed. Hell, I strongly disagree with sticking anyone, as there is far too much chance of bloodborne disease transmission. You want to stick a druggie who's fighting you? Really? And if you stick him and accidently stick yourself because he's fighting? Or what about the cop with an STD or other disease that transmitts it to a person? happens in the VA quite often. You know what you hear? Oops.

You should never have your blood forcibly drawn. There are too many other methods, non intrusive to decide if someone is intoxicated.
Requoted just in case Taylor missed it
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post #40 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:15 PM
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We need to start raising hell about this. First time someone gets AIDS from a city trying to cut costs by 'accidentally' using the same needles there is going to be hell to pay. That's if you can prove that's where you got it.

4th amendment is there for a reason. This needs to be challenged.
That will never happen. Needles are so damn cheap its not even funny. You can buy a box of syringes (for insulin) at Walgreens for $10 (100 count). What do you think wholesale cost is on some needles and vaccutainers? It will cost $.50 for the materials to draw blood. I think butterfly needles at my work cost us $.22 or something like that. A regular 20ga needle is cheaper.

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post #41 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:37 PM
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Don't drink and drive problem solved. Big Brother is watching...
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post #42 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:37 PM
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Don't say won't happen. You are underestimating cost cutting by paper pushers. There have been multiple cases of diseases passed at the VA because they keep 'forgetting' to change anal probes when doing a colonoscapy.
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post #43 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:54 PM
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No.


So if you're not, how in hell are you such an expert on what is and is not acceptable? My understanding is that if they suspect you, you get poked. Period. There do not have to be any extenuating circumstances. One of our FWPD brethren can/probably will chime in if this is incorrect.


My bet is that you're talking out yo ass. Why anyone is giving your tripe credence is beyond me...
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post #44 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 08:58 PM
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So if you're not, how in hell are you such an expert on what is and is not acceptable? My understanding is that if they suspect you, you get poked. Period. There do not have to be any extenuating circumstances. One of our FWPD brethren can/probably will chime in if this is incorrect.


My bet is that you're talking out yo ass. Why anyone is giving your tripe credence is beyond me...
Seriously? I pointed out exactly where in the article it says they are allowed to draw your blood. If you do not meet those requirements, then they can't draw your blood legally. What about that is hard to understand?
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post #45 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 09:12 PM
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Seriously? I pointed out exactly where in the article it says they are allowed to draw your blood. If you do not meet those requirements, then they can't draw your blood legally. What about that is hard to understand?

Yes seriously. The article doesn't cover the entire policy. You thinking that it does further illustrates your lack of insight into what is and is not, which is exactly the point.

Again, had you been involved in the past conversations on this in this very forum you would understand this. Instead you are presenting it as the end all when in fact it is not...
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post #46 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 09:22 PM
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Just to beat you to your next post of nothingness, read these, then get back with me and tell me that you HAVE to have one of those stipulations...

Ft Worth

Lots of other cities participating

Oh wow, not again



Wowzers! Guess you didn't know what the hell you were talking about after all...
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post #47 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 09:33 PM
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I'm talking about the bill signed into legislation that allows this type of thing dumbass.
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post #48 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 09:40 PM
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I'm talking about the bill signed into legislation that allows this type of thing dumbass.

Go fuck yourself you mindless little prick. You said that the blood couldn't be drawn without one of those circumstances. You were wrong. You can't go back and redefine your stance. Too late for that so thanks for playing. Dipshit.

It's been going on for a while so the bill is really kind of irrelevant. It was simply put in place to make it harder to defeat the draw in court.
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post #49 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 09:43 PM
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umadbro?

I said it can't be done legally. Try again.

Edit: And you drunk drivers can go fuck yourselves.
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post #50 of 128 (permalink) Old 07-12-2009, 09:46 PM
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It shouldn't be done at all. What if they miss a vein and have to stick you repeatedly? I HATE having blood drawn, always have. I'll do a subriety test, but I'll be damned if I'm getting stuck. Call the VA and have them do it
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