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post #1 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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OF NICE & MEN Who will say how much?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692973435303415.html

WSJ

Of NICE and Men

Speaking to the American Medical Association last month, President Obama waxed enthusiastic about countries that "spend less" than the U.S. on health care. He's right that many countries do, but what he doesn't want to explain is how they ration care to do it.
Take the United Kingdom, which is often praised for spending as little as half as much per capita on health care as the U.S. Credit for this cost containment goes in large part to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, or NICE. Americans should understand how NICE works because under ObamaCare it will eventually be coming to a hospital near you.
The British officials who established NICE in the late 1990s pitched it as a body that would ensure that the government-run National Health System used "best practices" in medicine. As the Guardian reported in 1998: "Health ministers are setting up [NICE], designed to ensure that every treatment, operation, or medicine used is the proven best. It will root out under-performing doctors and useless treatments, spreading best practices everywhere."
What NICE has become in practice is a rationing board. As health costs have exploded in Britain as in most developed countries, NICE has become the heavy that reduces spending by limiting the treatments that 61 million citizens are allowed to receive through the NHS. For example:
In March, NICE ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer. This followed on a 2008 ruling against drugs -- including Sutent, which costs about $50,000 -- that would help terminally ill kidney-cancer patients. After last year's ruling, Peter Littlejohns, NICE's clinical and public health director, noted that "there is a limited pot of money," that the drugs were of "marginal benefit at quite often an extreme cost," and the money might be better spent elsewhere.
In 2007, the board restricted access to two drugs for macular degeneration, a cause of blindness. The drug Macugen was blocked outright. The other, Lucentis, was limited to a particular category of individuals with the disease, restricting it to about one in five sufferers. Even then, the drug was only approved for use in one eye, meaning those lucky enough to get it would still go blind in the other. As Andrew Dillon, the chief executive of NICE, explained at the time: "When treatments are very expensive, we have to use them where they give the most benefit to patients."
NICE has limited the use of Alzheimer's drugs, including Aricept, for patients in the early stages of the disease. Doctors in the U.K. argued vociferously that the most effective way to slow the progress of the disease is to give drugs at the first sign of dementia. NICE ruled the drugs were not "cost effective" in early stages.
Other NICE rulings include the rejection of Kineret, a drug for rheumatoid arthritis; Avonex, which reduces the relapse rate in patients with multiple sclerosis; and lenalidomide, which fights multiple myeloma. Private U.S. insurers often cover all, or at least portions, of the cost of many of these NICE-denied drugs.
NICE has also produced guidance that restrains certain surgical operations and treatments. NICE has restrictions on fertility treatments, as well as on procedures for back pain, including surgeries and steroid injections. The U.K. has recently been absorbed by the cases of several young women who developed cervical cancer after being denied pap smears by a related health authority, the Cervical Screening Programme, which in order to reduce government health-care spending has refused the screens to women under age 25.
We could go on. NICE is the target of frequent protests and lawsuits, and at times under political pressure has reversed or watered-down its rulings. But it has by now established the principle that the only way to control health-care costs is for this panel of medical high priests to dictate limits on certain kinds of care to certain classes of patients.
The NICE board even has a mathematical formula for doing so, based on a "quality adjusted life year." While the guidelines are complex, NICE currently holds that, except in unusual cases, Britain cannot afford to spend more than about $22,000 to extend a life by six months. Why $22,000? It seems to be arbitrary, calculated mainly based on how much the government wants to spend on health care. That figure has remained fairly constant since NICE was established and doesn't adjust for either overall or medical inflation.
Proponents argue that such cost-benefit analysis has to figure into health-care decisions, and that any medical system rations care in some way. And it is true that U.S. private insurers also deny reimbursement for some kinds of care. The core issue is whether those decisions are going to be dictated by the brute force of politics (NICE) or by prices (a private insurance system).
The last six months of life are a particularly difficult moral issue because that is when most health-care spending occurs. But who would you rather have making decisions about whether a treatment is worth the price -- the combination of you, your doctor and a private insurer, or a government board that cuts everyone off at $22,000?
One virtue of a private system is that competition allows choice and experimentation. To take an example from one of our recent editorials, Medicare today refuses to reimburse for the new, less invasive preventive treatment known as a virtual colonoscopy, but such private insurers as Cigna and United Healthcare do. As clinical evidence accumulates on the virtual colonoscopy, doctors and insurers will be able to adjust their practices accordingly. NICE merely issues orders, and patients have little recourse.
This has medical consequences. The Concord study published in 2008 showed that cancer survival rates in Britain are among the worst in Europe. Five-year survival rates among U.S. cancer patients are also significantly higher than in Europe: 84% vs. 73% for breast cancer, 92% vs. 57% for prostate cancer. While there is more than one reason for this difference, surely one is medical innovation and the greater U.S. willingness to reimburse for it.
* * *
The NICE precedent also undercuts the Obama Administration's argument that vast health savings can be gleaned simply by automating health records or squeezing out "waste." Britain has tried all of that but ultimately has concluded that it can only rein in costs by limiting care. The logic of a health-care system dominated by government is that it always ends up with some version of a NICE board that makes these life-or-death treatment decisions. The Administration's new Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research currently lacks the authority of NICE. But over time, if the Obama plan passes and taxpayer costs inevitably soar, it could quickly gain it.
Mr. Obama and Democrats claim they can expand subsidies for tens of millions of Americans, while saving money and improving the quality of care. It can't possibly be done. The inevitable result of their plan will be some version of a NICE board that will tell millions of Americans that they are too young, or too old, or too sick to be worth paying to care for.


If Obama & his family & all of Congress does not use this Health Care Plan I don't think anyone should.

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post #2 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 03:29 PM
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I think everyone will agree we have a shitty healthcare system in the United States. and no matter what political leaning you have there is no perfect solution. but we have to face the truth, and that is that sooner or later its going to brake our back, right now we are spending 1 in 5 dollars on healthcare, and it will keep increasing.

so whats the best way to fix it? I mean european systems are not exactly perfect either, but they work much better then our system.

I dont really like the house democrats plan, not liking everything I am hearing from baraks plan, I think hillary's plan was the best offered from the left (but thats dead now) McCains plan is to tax everyones 401K and benefits, and then some other politicians have mentioned single payer plans. So far I really do not like any of those plans.

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post #3 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
I think everyone will agree we have a shitty healthcare system in the United States. and no matter what political leaning you have there is no perfect solution. but we have to face the truth, and that is that sooner or later its going to brake our back, right now we are spending 1 in 5 dollars on healthcare, and it will keep increasing.

so whats the best way to fix it? I mean european systems are not exactly perfect either, but they work much better then our system.

I dont really like the house democrats plan, not liking everything I am hearing from baraks plan, I think hillary's plan was the best offered from the left (but thats dead now) McCains plan is to tax everyones 401K and benefits, and then some other politicians have mentioned single payer plans. So far I really do not like any of those plans.
I do not agree. I think we have the best health care in the world.

I do not think healthcare is a right, I think it is a privilege for those that can afford it. Sure I think doctors charge way to damn much, but If I could get $5,000 a day for my skill and there was someone willing to pay it, I would.

I think it would be great if everyone in the US (hell the whole world) could have insurance, but is is not practical, especially on IOU's. Eventually the rich who are being robbed are going to say fuck it...

Also, show me where in the constitution they got this power...

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post #4 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 04:38 PM
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I think everyone will agree we have a shitty healthcare system in the United States.
You're an idiot.

There is no better healthcare in existence than that found in the United States. What the fuck are you talking about?
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post #5 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:01 PM
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I'll take the same plan that obama, his family, the senate, and congress use. And I guarantee you it will not be obamacare.

This article is correct, any form of nationalized health care will ration services and medicine, and will put a price on what a life is worth.

I do believe that we have the best health care system in the world. However, I do believe that there is room for improvement. For example, $50,000 for a drug (as mentioned in the article) is outrageous. I've been quoted $1000/month for a drug that previously cost me $25 with a co-pay when I changed jobs and was without health insurance for a period of time. This drug has been around for years, the original research cost has been recouped years ago, and still the price is a ripoff as the parent company milks it for all it's worth.

I believe that the best way to reform our healthcare system is to bring some pressure onto the drug companies and hospitals. How do you do that? Simple. Force people to pay for a portion of what they use. If such a system is implemented you would see a hell of a lot fewer $5000 trips to the ER for scrapes, and you would see a hell of a lot fewer $500 prescriptions written for runny noses. People would find alternatives.

I'm on such a plan (a HSA).

I do see another form of price correction on the horizon for the health care industry - outsourcing. You can't go to a hospital now and not see doctors from india or china. A huge industry has sprung up just south of the border with mexico providing alternatives for expensive medical procedures done in the US. These places have english speaking nurses and nice facilities and doctors that are pretty darn close to what you can get in the US (india and china, remember?), and their costs are far lower.

I've also had it with health insurance companies. They gouge the hell out of little employers and people needing to buy individual policies, and play games with their reimbursements. Sometimes they flat out refuse to pay claims, and after doing that they dump a policyholder. Some representatives of some of these companies were hauled before congress and asked if they planned to continue such policies. They all said yes.
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post #6 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:18 PM
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the US healthcare system barley beats out Slovenia and Cuba, we rank 37th according to the world health organization.

health care costs are 3 times higher in the US when compared with other developed countries.

we have the lowest average life expectancy in the developed world.

and this is suppose to make us #1????

how is paying more and living less good?

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post #7 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
the US healthcare system barley beats out Slovenia and Cuba, we rank 37th according to the world health organization.

health care costs are 3 times higher in the US when compared with other developed countries.

we have the lowest average life expectancy in the developed world.

and this is suppose to make us #1????

how is paying more and living less good?


I saw that movie two. The movie was moronic, and so are you for taking an edited piece of crap at face value without doing your own research.

Between michael moore and you, I still find your nonsensical ramblings more of a headache.

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post #8 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:27 PM
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no I get my information from the world health organization website

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post #9 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:30 PM
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no I get my information from the world health organization website
Oh, you mean the same WHO that is comprised of mostly govt bureaucrats that support socialized medicine?


Holy unbiased sources, Batman!
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post #10 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
I think everyone will agree we have a shitty healthcare system in the United States. and no matter what political leaning you have there is no perfect solution. but we have to face the truth, and that is that sooner or later its going to brake our back, right now we are spending 1 in 5 dollars on healthcare, and it will keep increasing.

so whats the best way to fix it? I mean european systems are not exactly perfect either, but they work much better then our system.

I dont really like the house democrats plan, not liking everything I am hearing from baraks plan, I think hillary's plan was the best offered from the left (but thats dead now) McCains plan is to tax everyones 401K and benefits, and then some other politicians have mentioned single payer plans. So far I really do not like any of those plans.
Not at all, best system in the world.

Perfect solution? NO GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT!
Again, it's the gov't that has broken our back (and the millions that don't pull their weight, so part 2 perfect solution, push the deadbeats into the fucking ocean)

European, Canadian, etc ALL SUCK.

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post #11 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:43 PM
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I'll take the same plan that obama, his family, the senate, and congress use. And I guarantee you it will not be obamacare.
Exactly right!

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post #12 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:43 PM
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the US healthcare system barley beats out Slovenia and Cuba, we rank 37th according to the world health organization.

health care costs are 3 times higher in the US when compared with other developed countries.

we have the lowest average life expectancy in the developed world.

and this is suppose to make us #1????

how is paying more and living less good?
You can't take all that information at face value.

We may be ranked 37th, but the top 100 are all within five years of each other.

Our health care is expensive because WE HAVE MONEY. Health care isn't expensive in Mozambique, because it can't be. Duh.

We have a high death rate among young males, which has NOTHING to do with our healthcare system.

You and I can go to any emergency room 24hrs a day and receive the best care available in the world. That is a FACT.
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post #13 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:55 PM
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As I have intimate knowledge of the UK healthcare system, socialised medicine is the suck...period.
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post #14 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
the US healthcare system barley beats out Slovenia and Cuba, we rank 37th according to the world health organization.

health care costs are 3 times higher in the US when compared with other developed countries.

we have the lowest average life expectancy in the developed world.

and this is suppose to make us #1????

how is paying more and living less good?
I'm sure "the developed world" probably consists of the US, Canada and Europe. You think our life expectancy is lower than the Chinese? Hilarious!
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post #15 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 05:57 PM
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You can't take all that information at face value.

We may be ranked 37th, but the top 100 are all within five years of each other.

Our health care is expensive because WE HAVE MONEY. Health care isn't expensive in Mozambique, because it can't be. Duh.

We have a high death rate among young males, which has NOTHING to do with our healthcare system.

You and I can go to any emergency room 24hrs a day and receive the best care available in the world. That is a FACT.
No Danny, what we need is the government involved in every decision!

The government lowers costs and increases efficiency!

You'd have to be a fucking idiot to believe it.
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post #16 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
the US healthcare system barley beats out Slovenia and Cuba, we rank 37th according to the world health organization.

health care costs are 3 times higher in the US when compared with other developed countries.

we have the lowest average life expectancy in the developed world.

and this is suppose to make us #1????

how is paying more and living less good?
Someone has bought the far left America-hating rhetoric hook, line and sinker!

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post #17 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
the US healthcare system barley beats out Slovenia and Cuba, we rank 37th according to the world health organization.

health care costs are 3 times higher in the US when compared with other developed countries.

we have the lowest average life expectancy in the developed world.

and this is suppose to make us #1????

how is paying more and living less good?
You just lost all credibility with me...You can't really believe that...

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post #18 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Here is some more info on Canada's health Care that Obama is trying to copy

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArti...31254362316405

Canada's Single-Prayer Health Care

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:20 PM PT

Health Reform: A critically ill premature baby is moved to a U.S hospital to get the treatment she couldn't get in the system we're told we should emulate. Cost-effective care? In Canada, as elsewhere, you get what you pay for.
Ava Isabella Stinson was born last Thursday at St. Joseph's hospital in Hamilton, Ontario. Weighing only two pounds, she was born 13 weeks premature and needed some very special care. Unfortunately, there were no open neonatal intensive care beds for her at St. Joseph's — or anywhere else in the entire province of Ontario, it seems.
Canada's perfectly planned and cost-effective system had no room at the inn for Ava, who of necessity had to be sent across the border to a Buffalo, N.Y., hospital to suffer under our chaotic and costly system. She had no time to be put on a Canadian waiting list. She got the care she needed at an American hospital under a system President Obama has labeled "unsustainable."
Jim Hoft over at Gateway Pundit reports Ava's case is not unusual. He reports that Hamilton's neonatal intensive care unit is closed to new admissions half the time. Special-needs infants are sent elsewhere and usually to the U.S.
In 2007, a Canadian woman gave birth to extremely rare identical quadruplets — Autumn, Brooke, Calissa and Dahlia Jepps. They were born in the United States to Canadian parents because there was again no space available at any Canadian neonatal care unit. All they had was a wing and a prayer.
The Jepps, a nurse and a respiratory technician flew from Calgary, a city of a million people, 325 miles to Benefit Hospital in Great Falls, Mont., a city of 56,000. The girls are doing fine, thanks to our system where care still trumps cost and where being without insurance does not mean being without care.

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post #19 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:36 PM
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I've been to numerous countries with socialized medicine and my wife is from New Zealand where they have it as well. If you can afford private insurance, you go that way. You cut the lines and waiting list.

Our health care system is the best in the world. That nifty list you are looking at Cannon, also says we have the longest life expectancy, and best survival rate for major health issues like cancer. In Europe, they look at you and say "Is this cost effective?" They don't care about your life, just the numbers.

Here, you can get the best treatment, few and short lines and the like. The government can't even run medicare and you want them to run a bigger version? Europe has a MUCH smaller population and can't afford their program. It's too costly. Multiply that by our population and it goes through the roof.

Only liberals think our health care system suck. You want universal health care? Go hang out at the VA for 12 hours waiting to have blood drawn. I am up there several times a month.
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post #20 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 08:37 PM
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I didnt make up these numbers, this is widely known and on the record. its not something to be proud of, and its not something that should be ignored.

but aside from the WHO data, the real bad news about our current system is how its eating us alive financially. each year we are breaking our own record on healthcare spending, its costing us more and more each year. 1 in 5 dollars is spent on healthcare, 20% of our wealth each year, and that percentage is growing. how could anyone think that our current trend is fine ?

I dont think socialized medicine is the answer either, so dont stick that on me. but dont tell me that our current system is not in a downward spiral because it is.

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post #21 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-08-2009, 09:03 PM
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And Americans are already spending 1 out of 3 dollars on taxes. So...this would bring it to what? 3 out of every 5? 4 out of every 5?
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post #22 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 07:20 AM
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remember in the US the government is the biggest spender on healthcare, so the bulk of that 1 in 5 for healthcare comes out of your taxes.

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post #23 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 08:23 AM
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I mean european systems are not exactly perfect either, but they work much better then our system.
You are absolutely wrong on this. I have good friends in the UK and in Canada. They tell me the number one reason they chose to go into management with our company is that they get to opt out of the shitty public health care system and get private health care for themselves and their family.

They chose their career path based on the insurance/health care. Think that over for a minute. They all tell horror stories about the public healthcare system.

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post #24 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 08:46 AM
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The only thing wrong with the US Health Care is the cost...and I blame that on lawyers and insurance companies (HMO's) because they are in it for the MONEY, not the health.

Otherwise, we do have the best health care. Seriously...why do Canadians AND the British come HERE for the serious health conditions (ergo cancer, etc)??

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post #25 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
I didnt make up these numbers, this is widely known and on the record. its not something to be proud of, and its not something that should be ignored.

but aside from the WHO data, the real bad news about our current system is how its eating us alive financially. each year we are breaking our own record on healthcare spending, its costing us more and more each year. 1 in 5 dollars is spent on healthcare, 20% of our wealth each year, and that percentage is growing. how could anyone think that our current trend is fine ?

I dont think socialized medicine is the answer either, so dont stick that on me. but dont tell me that our current system is not in a downward spiral because it is.
The government is the king of mismanaging money (Medicare-Social Security), why would you want to give them more?

You can't compare what individuals choose to spend on healthcare out of their own pocket vs what socalized gov systems do unless you compare the level of care. Pull your head out of the sand and realize this: The United States has some of, if not the best, available treatment in the world and in most cases you can get it pretty damn fast. This will not be the case with a government run system. Go hang out at Parkland Hospital, and then tell me if you want every hospital in the US to be like that.

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The only thing wrong with the US Health Care is the cost...and I blame that on lawyers and insurance companies (HMO's) because they are in it for the MONEY, not the health.
yes

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post #26 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 10:43 AM
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The government is the king of mismanaging money (Medicare-Social Security), why would you want to give them more?

You can't compare what individuals choose to spend on healthcare out of their own pocket vs what socalized gov systems do unless you compare the level of care. Pull your head out of the sand and realize this: The United States has some of, if not the best, available treatment in the world and in most cases you can get it pretty damn fast. This will not be the case with a government run system. Go hang out at Parkland Hospital, and then tell me if you want every hospital in the US to be like that.


yes
let me repeat this: I am not for socialized medicine, Go back and read more carefully. My arguement is that our current system is crap, and it needs a major overhaul.

they way our system works right now has half of us on some sort of socialized healthcare system. tax payers end up paying for the elderly, people with insurance end up paying for those who dont. with more and more people living longer, and less and less people having insurance, it becomes a downward spiral.

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post #27 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
so whats the best way to fix it? I mean european systems are not exactly perfect either, but they work much better then our system.
Straight from the newspapers (UK, just for 2009, Links to headlines here)
Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE
- April 29, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

Girl, 3, has heart operation cancelled three times because of bed shortage
- David Rose, April 23, 2009 [Times Online]

Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997
- Daniel Martin and Cher Thornhill, April 12, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

NHS 'failings' over elderly falls
- March 25, 2009 [BBC]

Learning disabled 'failed by NHS'
- Nick Triggle, March 24, 2009 [BBC]

Cancer survivor confronts the health secretary on 62-day wait
- Lyndsay Moss, March 21, 2009 [The Scotsman]

Culture of targets prevents nurses from tending to patients
- Claire Rayner, President of the Patients Association, March 21, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

Children being failed by health system, says head of watchdog
- Sarah Boseley, March 21, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

Our cancer shame: Survival rates still lag behind EU despite spending billions
- Jenny Hope, March 20, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

Failing hospital 'caused deaths'
- March 17, 2009 [BBC]

Health gap drive 'wasted money'
- Nick Triggle, March 14, 2009 [BBC]

Longer GP opening hours branded wasteful 'PR exercise' by doctors
- Lyndsay Moss, March 13, 2009 [The Scotsman]

"Political meddling" threatens general practice, warns GP leader
- March 13, 2009 [Management in Practice (UK)]

Children at risk through lack of training for doctors and nurses, report warns
- Rebecca Smith, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

Chocolate should be taxed to control obesity epidemic, doctors are told
- Simon Johnson, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

1,000 villagers wait for a dentist after just one NHS practice opens
- March 10, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

Study that proves the folly of NHS Alzheimer's drug ban
- Jenny Hope, March 7, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

NHS charges to rise in England
- March 5, 2009 [BBC]

Disabled children wait up to two years for wheelchairs
- March 4, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

NHS under fire over waiting times
- February 25, 2009 [The Scotsman]

Government procrastination blamed for HIV-contaminated blood tragedy
- February 23, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

Specialist nurses 'vastly overworked'
- February 20, 2009 [Harwich & Manningtree Standard]

Hundreds of operations cancelled at Lothian hospitals
- Adam Morris, February 19, 2009 [The Scotsman]

Stop asking for antibiotics to cure coughs and colds, Government tells patients
- Daniel Martin, February 17, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

Stroke services are 'UK's worst'
- February 17, 2009 [BBC]

From Canada 07-08 news links. Links can be found here
Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
- Cathryn Atkinson, April 8, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
- March 27, 2008 [CTV.ca]

Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
- Lisa Priest, February 22, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

Will Socialized Health Care in the US Kill Canadians?
- Don Surber, March 3, 2008 [Acton Institute]

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
- October 15, 2007 [CBC News (Canada)]

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
- David Gratzer, Summer 2007 [City Journal]

Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered
- May 28, 2007 [CBC News]


How can you even make a statement like that after reading these headlines?
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post #28 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 11:47 AM
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Again people I am not argueing for socialized medicine

when you look at our system, where people dieing in waiting rooms, and we are spending 3 times as much. how exactly does that make our system better

in both systems the "Haves" are paying for the "Have Nots"
but in our system the "Haves" are paying 3 times as much

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post #29 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Not at all, best system in the world.

Perfect solution? NO GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT!
Again, it's the gov't that has broken our back (and the millions that don't pull their weight, so part 2 perfect solution, push the deadbeats into the fucking ocean)

European, Canadian, etc ALL SUCK.
Well said!

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post #30 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
Again people I am not argueing for socialized medicine

when you look at our system, where people dieing in waiting rooms, and we are spending 3 times as much. how exactly does that make our system better

in both systems the "Haves" are paying for the "Have Nots"
but in our system the "Haves" are paying 3 times as much
Should the haves be forced to join the system and pay in because the have-nots can't pay? Where are you basing your costs on? Would you rather pay a 1/3 and get shuffled out 2 years on an elective surgery or pay 3x and get fixed NOW?

Like I said, the perfect system would be free market driven, 100%. Prices would plummet, but then again the government would lose some precious control and we can't have that now, can we!?

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post #31 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
in both systems the "Haves" are paying for the "Have Nots"
but in our system the "Haves" are paying 3 times as much
This is because they are trying to mix public heathcare with private healthcare. You either have public or you have private, both systems can't work together, obviously. If we would go back to a "private" heathcare form we wouldn't have these "haves" paying the bill because the "have nots" cannot afford it. I am one who believes heathcare is a privilege not a right. If you cannot afford heathcare you are SOL.

It is my sole belief that the gov't should be no where near the medical industry. Working with them everyday(I work medical insurance) has shown me how incompetent they are with what little they are responsible for. If they take over the entire industry, well, all I can say it's hard to imagine how much my job would suck at that point.

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post #32 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 12:48 PM
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The fact is that the majority of the problem with our healthcare system is the number of tests and referrals.

Anytime you call a doctor on the phone what is the first thing they want you to do? They want you to come in so they can charge your insurance for an office visit. Even if you need something they can't provide.

Once you get through the food chain to the doctor you actually need, what do they do? They run test after test after test in order to make you sure their diagnosis is correct. That is because if they are wrong they get their asses sued off and their malpractice insurance goes through the roof. Once they know what is wrong the doctor starts writing as many prescriptions as possible, why not, the insurance pays for it! The number of prescriptions written in this country have doubled in the last decade.

To me it sounds like the way to fix the system is limit the number of frivolous visits to the doctor and to limit the doctor's liability. The fix is NOT to allow the idiots in Washington to have any sort of control.
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post #33 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P View Post
The fact is that the majority of the problem with our healthcare system is the number of tests and referrals.

Anytime you call a doctor on the phone what is the first thing they want you to do? They want you to come in so they can charge your insurance for an office visit. Even if you need something they can't provide.

Once you get through the food chain to the doctor you actually need, what do they do? They run test after test after test in order to make you sure their diagnosis is correct. That is because if they are wrong they get their asses sued off and their malpractice insurance goes through the roof. Once they know what is wrong the doctor starts writing as many prescriptions as possible, why not, the insurance pays for it! The number of prescriptions written in this country have doubled in the last decade.

To me it sounds like the way to fix the system is limit the number of frivolous visits to the doctor and to limit the doctor's liability.
Fuck the attorneys, too!

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
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post #34 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Should the haves be forced to join the system and pay in because the have-nots can't pay? Where are you basing your costs on? Would you rather pay a 1/3 and get shuffled out 2 years on an elective surgery or pay 3x and get fixed NOW?

Like I said, the perfect system would be free market driven, 100%. Prices would plummet, but then again the government would lose some precious control and we can't have that now, can we!?
thats where Obamas plan gets loopy, we would all be forced to pay that 1/3 cost(in one way or antother), but the haves would still would still be on a private plan which they would also pay for. which ends up screwing the "have nots". the democrats always play that game.

the other extreme is 100% free market, not everyone will buy health insurance, yet everyone of those people will end up seeing a doctor at least once in their life. who will end up paying for it??

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post #35 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
I think everyone will agree we have a shitty healthcare system in the United States.

I believe our healthcare is one of the best if not the best. The problem is we give it away to freely ( not citizens etc) that the people who can afford it get raped on the price.
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post #36 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 01:08 PM
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Maybe we should treat the edlery like we do cars this would get a lot of people out of the hospitals.... lol have a junk yard more or less... when the car cost more to fix then its worth you part it out and eventually crush it haha.


( I really do not belive in what I just said)
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post #37 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
Again people I am not argueing for socialized medicine

when you look at our system, where people dieing in waiting rooms, and we are spending 3 times as much. how exactly does that make our system better

in both systems the "Haves" are paying for the "Have Nots"
but in our system the "Haves" are paying 3 times as much
You are aware that the reason we pay 3 times as much is we have 350 MILLION people, right? We are a big country. Socialized medicine hurts small countries, in larger ones, it bankrupts them. All these numbers that the news spout leave this fact out. Comparing us to Britian or Canada or New Zealand? They have maybe a 10th of our population and spend a small fraction of their money on national defense because we bail everyone out.

With our national defense, which is essential, we can't have socialized health care. Hell, we can't afford what we have now. I say balance the budget, pay everything off and then look at any new programs.
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post #38 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2009, 02:04 PM
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If you want to see how expensive healthcare can get...wait until it's "free".
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post #39 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2009, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by forever_frost View Post
You are aware that the reason we pay 3 times as much is we have 350 MILLION people, right? We are a big country. Socialized medicine hurts small countries, in larger ones, it bankrupts them. All these numbers that the news spout leave this fact out. Comparing us to Britian or Canada or New Zealand? They have maybe a 10th of our population and spend a small fraction of their money on national defense because we bail everyone out.

With our national defense, which is essential, we can't have socialized health care. Hell, we can't afford what we have now. I say balance the budget, pay everything off and then look at any new programs.

Socialized medicine is not the only alternative. we need to come up with a system that is right for our country, because the current system will bankrupt us with in a couple decades. in 2005 the government financed 46% of all medical spending in the US, and that percentage is growing. that number is growing because our government has allowed it to.

is it the duty of the state to protect us from the spread of dieses? I think on some levels it is, after all the smallest germ can potentially bring down a civilization faster then an invading army.

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post #40 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2009, 05:29 PM
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I agree. What we need to do is demand picture ID with proof of citizenship for anyone to use our health care system. If you're an illegal and pregnant? Sorry, carry your ass back down south. You get zero help. Illegal and got mauled by something? Deal with it. There goes a massive amount of money right there.

Back off government regulations and bs pocketing of cash for a drug to pass teh FDA and you have more cuts. There. I have kept the private sector rolling, limited government intervention AND cut the money required to run things.
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post #41 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 12:36 AM
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You know, to be perfectly honest. I don't care if our health care system is the worst, or the best. This is real simple. I do not want the feds telling me, or my Doctor what to do period! It's not their place, and they need to keep their big fat nose out of my affairs. The feds have no constitutional right to do this!



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post #42 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 08:37 AM
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I agree. What we need to do is demand picture ID with proof of citizenship for anyone to use our health care system. If you're an illegal and pregnant? Sorry, carry your ass back down south. You get zero help. Illegal and got mauled by something? Deal with it. There goes a massive amount of money right there.

Back off government regulations and bs pocketing of cash for a drug to pass teh FDA and you have more cuts. There. I have kept the private sector rolling, limited government intervention AND cut the money required to run things.
we need to hold their government responsible for their citizens health care costs. if some illegal contracts H1N1 and parkland refuses to treat him, he is going to leave and infect every person he comes into contact with. we have to treat people when they get sick, or we are all going to get sick.

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post #43 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-11-2009, 02:52 PM
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No, if they come in and are illegal, police are called adn they are deported. This isn't rocket science. Close our borders and make people come through legally.
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