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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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Obama/Democrats want a 25% sales tax

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As lawmakers toy with the idea of an across-the-board sales tax on just about everything, tax reform advocates are starting to drum up opposition with the same fervor they employed during last month's anti-tax tea parties.

The idea of a national sales tax was once unlikely. But now that the federal government is doling out billions in stimulus spending and bailouts, and looking for billions more for health care reform, the prospect could be gaining some traction.

The frenzy over the idea kicked up after a Washington Post article Wednesday reported that Congress is starting to pay closer attention to this largely academic proposal and that the Obama administration, though shushing speculation, is soliciting advise from supporters of the idea.

"It should certainly raise alarm bells that they think they can inject it into the debate," said Phil Kerpen, policy director at Americans for Prosperity.

The value-added tax, or VAT, as it is called, amounts to a tax-on-everything -- or TOE, for the acronym-inclined. It's a tax on goods that's applied in pieces throughout the chain of production and distribution and results in an increase in the cost of virtually everything you buy.

Aside from raising revenue for the government, the move could have a number of things going for it, say proponents -- it's tough to evade, it's simple by comparison to the income tax and it encourages saving.

Some conservatives have called for something similar -- the so-called Fair Tax -- that would replace the federal income tax system with a national retail sales tax.

But critics of the VAT say it would almost certainly not be implemented as a replacement for the income tax system -- rather, it would be just another tax, on top of the income tax, the state sales tax and everything else.

"This isn't a tax reform proposal that the White House is talking about. This is a new source of income for the government," said Max Pappas, public policy vice president at FreedomWorks. "The government needs big taxes and we've got big government, so now they're trying to decide how to pay for it."

It's unclear how far along the idea is on Capitol Hill.

"That's not something that I understand is under discussion," White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Thursday. A White House official also told the Post it's "unlikely" to be tapped to pay for health care reform.

But Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, was open to that idea, and the article noted that one of Budget Director Peter Orszag's health care advisers is a VAT advocate and Paul Volcker, the former Federal Reserve chairman who's now an Obama economic adviser, is at least willing to hear arguments.

Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, wrote in a Virginia Tax Review article last month that the tax-on-everything could finance health care reform, and could reach a rate of 25 percent.

One of the chief criticisms of the consumption tax is that it is regressive -- it would hurt the poor the most. Because lower-income earners use a greater percentage of their income for consumption, the tax could end up being a bigger burden on the poor.

But Burman argued in a separate article for the review that using the revenue from the tax for health care would offset this effect, since "the voucher would be worth more than the VAT tax paid by most households."

If that's the best-case scenario, critics see a worst-case scenario that is devastating. Though the tax is used throughout Europe, opponents cite Europe's rapid growth in government over the past several decades as one of its potent negative side effects.

Pappas said the system would be exploited to grow government over the decades, since the tax is relatively easy to obscure.

"This is a big deal," he said. "This fundamentally changes the size of government indefinitely, permanently, and you can see that by the expansion in Europe over the past 40 years."

Plus it could have the unfortunate effect of discouraging spending in a time of recession -- effectively serving as an anti-stimulus.

Critics saw Wednesday's article as a trial balloon, which may or may not find its way into real-world negotiations over revenue raising.

It's not so outrageous considering proposals that are already being discussed. A memo circulated at a recent Senate Finance Committee meeting floated the possibility of a federal excise tax on sugary drinks -- not just sodas, but fruit and vegetable drinks, energy drinks, ice teas, iced coffees and flavored milk drinks.

An across-the-board consumption tax could make that look pleasant by comparison, since it's more than a sin tax -- it's a tax on virtuous and moral-neutral items as well. Small-government advocates, though, have pledged to fight both ideas.

"A VAT is among the most regressive tax schemes that can be imposed, and is a direct violation of Obama's no-tax-hike promise," Ryan Ellis, tax policy director at Americans for Tax Reform, wrote Wednesday on his group's Web site. "VATs are a gateway drug to more government spending."
FUCK THAT SHIT.. a 25% Federal Sales Tax?!!?!?!??!

Impeach Obama.

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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 10:19 PM
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95% of Americans won't see a raise in their taxes. Not one cent
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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 10:26 PM
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Goes with this bullshit in a way, taxing radio stations for playing music? I swear the RIAA are pieces of shit.

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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 10:27 PM
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The democrats always over-play their hand.

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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 10:29 PM
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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 11:03 PM
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What do Obama and JFK have in common?

I've never seen anyone as arrogant as these people... they really don't give a damn about this country...
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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 11:09 PM
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If it were a replacement for income tax, I'd be all for it. Get rid of the IRS and free up a little office space.......
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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 11:14 PM
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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:07 AM
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If it were a replacement for income tax, I'd be all for it. Get rid of the IRS and free up a little office space.......
Seconded. I'm all for the VAT tax as long as it replaces the income tax.

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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:19 AM
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Seconded. I'm all for the VAT tax as long as it replaces the income tax.
DITTO. The problem is that they don't want it to replace the income tax. They want it in ADDITION to the income tax..
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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:45 AM
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What do Obama and JFK have in common?

...
nothing...yet

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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:50 AM
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I quit. I swear... moving out into the woods and living off the land seems better and better by the minute.
Remember you can be taxed for having a farm and only feeding yourself.

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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:01 AM
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I like the part where it says it is a regressive tax and that is a concern.

Shouldn't poor people be the one paying for all the government services they use? I guess that idea is just crazy. lol
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:17 AM
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Before long we'll have a tax on tax. Woohoo.

How the hell did the people who voted for all of this spending think that it was going to get paid for?
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:21 AM
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I thought people making less than $250,000 (wait, $100,000? - I forget) weren't going to see any tax increases.
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:22 AM
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What!?! I won't believe it until the teleprompter tells him to say it.

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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:29 AM
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Remember you can be taxed for having a farm and only feeding yourself.
Come get it, with no income! HA!

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:37 AM
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DITTO. The problem is that they don't want it to replace the income tax. They want it in ADDITION to the income tax..
The article stated that it was being looked at as an alternative, although some people think it could be on top of income tax. It will never happen as an addition to income tax. I'm all for it as a replacement for income tax.

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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:41 AM
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If it were a replacement for income tax, I'd be all for it. Get rid of the IRS and free up a little office space.......
Even then, I would rather the sales tax be MUCH less than 25%. Think about it. You decide to go buy a $20k car. Assuming the State of Texas still has its sales tax, that is already 6.25% (may vary by county/city). Not even considering TT&L, that's already $21,250. Add the Federal Sales Tax on top of that (still based on the original $20k), that brings the total to $26,250. A $35k car would have a federal tax of $8,750. Not a good idea at this time. I could deal with a lower percentage as long as it replaces the income tax.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay the federal government a $5k tax on a $20k car.

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:54 AM
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How does this make the Bama admin and dems any different than the evil credit card companies?
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:54 AM
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If it were a replacement for income tax, I'd be all for it. Get rid of the IRS and free up a little office space.......
I agree, but you know its not....
30-45% federal income tax
25% federal sales tax
thats already up to 70% tax without factoring state and local taxes or all the hidden taxes...

tax tax tax tax....
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:55 AM
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How does this make the Bama admin and dems any different than the evil credit card companies?
cuz you have to sign a contract and agree to pay the credit card companies... the Government just takes it no matter what....
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 12:02 PM
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Before long we'll have a tax on tax. Woohoo.

How the hell did the people who voted for all of this spending think that it was going to get paid for?

Sorry Mike. Your doing that now. Buy a pack of cigarettes. Half of the money you pay for them is taxes, then you get taxed on the hole amount. Gas is the same.



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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 12:07 PM
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How does this make the Bama admin and dems any different than the evil credit card companies?
Because we agree to and PAY interest rates on Credit Cards, They TAKE taxes.

It is like letting the worker set his own hourly rate, he would up it every chance he got. The Government does the same. I think we need a separate group of people controlling tax rates, a group that has no authority to spend it and gets no benefit from raisng or lowering it. Like an investor, they would listen to the federal government's reasons for needing money and decide if they are legitimate/worthwile for the country. Won't happen, but I can dream.

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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 01:49 PM
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I quit. I swear... moving out into the woods and living off the land seems better and better by the minute.
Property tax
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:05 PM
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Post the fucking source link.

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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:12 PM
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I would go for VAT as long as it REPLACES the IRS........

VAT is ok in some ideas... Also remember the the national sales tax, means you pay a tax for everything you pay for... Ie VAT on paying your bills for a credit card......... Literally EVERYTHING.

Now one thing about this system is, NO MATTER WHAT... everyone pays the same amount. If you buy less goods you have more money....... if you spend more, you pay more....... this also Covers the illegals that are in the USA, drug lords, Pimps, Ho's, Strippers, tourists, you name it.......... EVERYONE has to buy goods/services for a living..... SO everyone pays into the system.

On the flip side goods/services SHOULD drop a little in prices, as store owners won't have to pay a inventory tax or income tax. they get taxed on spending their money also... Though i don't know how it would work for goods purchased for retail sale.

Many "3rd world" countries have VAT. It is the best way to INSURE Everyone pays there share. As long as you live in that country.

Now for me, it would be even better. I earn dollars but live and spend my money in Colombia... which is cheaper.... I just help pay into their tax system. BTW Colombia is 16.8% VAT

CAR SALES TAX in Colombia though is a staggering 100% of value. i saw a 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 the other day. its brand new sitting on the show room floor...... 99,999.00 US DOLLARS...100k for a fucking Jeep.. thats nuts.
Then again their idea is that if you can afford a car, then you are rich... so if yor rich the corrupt Govt wants thier cut........ Oh yea cheap bullshit 85 RON (octane) gas is still over 3.00 a gallon and super is over 4.50 a gallon.

Lets se what the US govt wants to do about this whole TAX thing...... personally i like the idea of VAt.... its better than the current bullhsit we have going on right now....... One thing i can see though creating static , is the IDEA of not having a tax return. Many people use that as their only saving account........ With VAt , there is no tax return.

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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:16 PM
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Post the fucking source link.
Will never happen. Look at all of his posts in here. All have articles. None contain a link, or source.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:26 PM
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What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:36 PM
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What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.
You damn right you will...as we all will, whether we like it or not.

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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:48 PM
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What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.
Right guys, paying taxes is patriotic!

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:53 PM
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What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.
Are you willing to pay my part as well?

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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 03:03 PM
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Are you willing to pay my part as well?
He's not THAT patriotic! LOL! But he'll help you spend your shit on entitlement programs that "we all" participate in.

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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 03:11 PM
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What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.
I'd rather see reductions in spending than increases in taxes. Take away a lot of that cake that very few are getting. Our government makes the AIG business parties look like bargains.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 03:15 PM
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He's not THAT patriotic! LOL! But he'll help you spend your shit on entitlement programs that "we all" participate in.
I'm just pointing out the mentality of 49% of this country. So 'our' portion, that is, those of us that work for a living, instead of being X amount will work out to XXXXX amount.

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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 03:15 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...ce-opposition/

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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 03:41 PM
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From someone who is educated, when do you think this tax could possibly come into play?

NO NO NO, it should be DFWLS1's, CUMMINS, C6 VETTES.net
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 04:41 PM
 
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I quit. I swear... moving out into the woods and living off the land seems better and better by the minute.
He will find a way to tax the leaves you wipe your ass with out there lol
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 11:36 PM
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What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.

WRONG!


I didn't sign on nor agree to the big government that has created this debt. Period.
No one that I know stepped up and said "Hey, let's sign on to creating this massive load of debt".
I sure as hell wouldn't do a damned thing to make the lives my boys will be carving out any more difficult than it has to be.

For you to make a blanket statement of this sort is assinine at best. Not one of us chose this avenue, and I can assure you that every one of us with even a modicum of intelligence have not agreed with this tact for quite some time, regardless of party affiliation. So NO, I was not party to this activity. I was more appropriately an unwilling participant. Raped, if you will, by a government that has long been out of control...
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 12:11 AM
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And you’re working for no-one but me,

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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TheAsp! View Post
What we want is to have the cake and eat it, too. You might not be aware that the national debt had already exceeded 3 trillion before Obama took office, but it has been a problem for a long time. One might even suggest that it would have to be paid, sooner or later, by somebody. One might even suggest that paying down the debt is a responsible course of action. If you are old enough to sit in front of a computer, you were a part of accruing that debt. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Black, White, Hispanic, rich, poor, city or country-- er'body was in on it whether you wanted to be or not. The issue seems to be that we wanted our kids to pay for it-- not us-- and that is just pathetic. I, for one, will pay my part.

As many here already know, I'm not a fan of Democrats or Republicans when it comes to Fiscal Responsibility. Both have had their heads in the sand and don't give a rats ass about debts or deficits. They both continue to think that it is a problem for someone else.

You stated that the National Debt is $3Trillion. That is incorrect. The National Debt is $11.3Trillion and that doesn't count the unfunded liabilities from Social Security. Under the Bush Administration, the national debt increased from $5.727TRILLION to to $10.626TRILLION.

Treasure.gov has a web app for tracking the debt, down to the penny, right here:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPD...application=np

Since President Obama's inauguration, the national debt has increased $684.8BILLION. Obama's deficit projection for FY2009 is $1.8 TRILLION. The Bush administration added $1.886TRILLION in debt over its FIRST FOUR YEARS. That is what is scaring the fuck out of people. The CBO estimates that the National Debt will increase to $17TRILLION over the next 10 years.

My problem with a lot of this is that the government is throwing money at banking and industry to bail them out without actually fixing the problem. The banking industry hasn't seen one reform measure to prevent this problem from occurring again. All Congress and Obama need to do is reverse the repeal of the Glass Stegall act and repeal the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. You can lay a lot of the blame for this financial mess at the doorstep of these two pieces of legislation. However, the administration hasn't made a peep about fixing that mess.

The problem with the Sales tax (or VAT) is that it is going to be regressive. It will generate revenue but it will drive consumers away and really kick our economy in the nuts? If it were to be used to replace the Income Tax (aka: The FAIR tax) then it might actually kick the economy into overdrive.

You say that you want to pay your fair share of the debt, right? Well, with the tax they are proposing, you won't because there is a damn good chance you won't have any money to pay that tax after you lose your job. Passing a VAT right now is a bullet to the head of the US economy.
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-14-2009, 10:41 AM
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So, is a VAT bad in all instances? It seems like most of the EU member states got to keep their respective VATs, and have used it to encourage manufacture for export, in that whatever is produced for export has its tax refunded to the company. A few companies even get most of their VAT taken away if they export a high percentage of their goods. On top of that, they've reduced some corporate and property taxes. I wouldn't be opposed to a VAT if it was worked that way.

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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-14-2009, 11:12 AM
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95% of Americans won't see a raise in their taxes. Not one cent
x2

Quote:
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If it were a replacement for income tax, I'd be all for it. Get rid of the IRS and free up a little office space.......
x2

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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-14-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Yale View Post
So, is a VAT bad in all instances? It seems like most of the EU member states got to keep their respective VATs, and have used it to encourage manufacture for export, in that whatever is produced for export has its tax refunded to the company. A few companies even get most of their VAT taken away if they export a high percentage of their goods. On top of that, they've reduced some corporate and property taxes. I wouldn't be opposed to a VAT if it was worked that way.
I think a VAT is extremely good IF it replaces Income and Social Security Taxes. In other words, institute the FAIR TAX.

I would need to see more evidence for the rest of your argument before I could make a truly intelligent reply. However, the EU wasn't exactly an economic power house in the last couple of decades. If US banks hadn't ruined everything, we would be beating everyone's ass except perhaps the Chinese.

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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-14-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis View Post
I think a VAT is extremely good IF it replaces Income and Social Security Taxes. In other words, institute the FAIR TAX.

I would need to see more evidence for the rest of your argument before I could make a truly intelligent reply. However, the EU wasn't exactly an economic power house in the last couple of decades. If US banks hadn't ruined everything, we would be beating everyone's ass except perhaps the Chinese.
We're seeing eye to eye. I'd have to dig up a source, but Frank Rich was talking about using it to try and eliminate property tax, since that discourages improvement, some corporate taxe, because they discourage growth, and income tax, because it would become a redundant tax at that point. Everyone would pay similar tax rates, but they could avoid that by being a cheapskate and that would encourage fiscal responsibility. Seems resonable, even coming from the NY Times. Am I looking at this wrong, or are they making sense, lol?

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