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post #1 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
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Obama to KILL high horspower cars

TThey want cars that basically get a minimum of 36 mpg.

Sounds like the 70's again. Cars finally get some big horsepower, and the government slaps them back down.

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Obama, auto industry, California agree on mileage, emissions rules

12:16 AM CDT on Tuesday, May 19, 2009
From Wire Reports

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama will announce tough new nationwide rules for automobile emissions and mileage standards today, embracing standards that California has sought to enact for years over the objections of the auto industry and the Bush administration.

The rules, which will begin to take effect in 2012, will put in place a federal standard for fuel efficiency that is as tough as the California program, while imposing the first-ever limits on climate-altering gases from cars and trucks.

The effect would be a single new national standard that will create a car and light truck fleet in the U.S. that is almost 40 percent cleaner and more fuel-efficient by 2016 than it is today, with an average of 35.5 miles per gallon.

The plan still must clear some regulatory hurdles, but it has broad support.

Environmental advocates and industry officials welcomed the new program, but for different reasons. Environmentalists called it a long-overdue tightening of emissions and fuel economy standards after decades of government delay and industry opposition. Auto industry officials said it would provide the single national efficiency standard they have long desired, a reasonable timetable to meet it and the certainty they need to proceed with product development plans.

Yet the industry position represents an abrupt about-face after years of battling tougher mileage standards in the courts and in Congress, reflecting the change in the political climate and the industry's shaky financial condition. The decision comes as General Motors and Chrysler are receiving billions of dollars in federal help, closing hundreds of dealerships and trying to design the products and business strategy they will need to survive.

David McCurdy, president of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, said that the agreement reached late Sunday would provide the industry with "clarity and predictability."


Added expense

That predictability won't come cheap. A senior administration official said the new standards would raise the cost of an average car by $1,300, $600 of which could be attributed to the rules being announced today. The remaining increase would stem from previous energy policy.

In announcing the new program at the White House, Obama will be accompanied by Govs. Jennifer Granholm, D-Mich., and Arnold Schwarzenegger, R-Calif., along with auto industry executives and environmental leaders.

The administration's decision resolves a question over California's application for a waiver from federal clean air laws to impose its own, tougher vehicle emissions standards. Thirteen states and the District of Columbia have said they plan to adopt the California program.


California plan

The new national fleet mileage rule for cars and light trucks of 35.5 miles per gallon by 2016 roughly corresponds to the California requirement, which will be shelved as a result of the deal. The current national standard is slightly more than 25 miles per gallon.

The California plan, first proposed in 2002, had been stalled by industry lawsuits and the Bush administration's refusal to grant a waiver from less stringent federal rules, although California has been given dozens of such exemptions over the past 40 years. The program will also end a number of lawsuits over the California standards, officials said.


"This is the single biggest step the American government has ever taken to cut greenhouse gas emissions," said Daniel Becker, director of the Safe Climate Campaign. He has pushed for tougher mileage and emissions standards for two decades.

One ranking industry official said that the administration wanted to get the new mileage rules in place before GM made a decision on a bankruptcy filing, which could happen by the end of this month. The new rules also provide some certainty for Chrysler, which is already under bankruptcy protection, so that it can plan its future models.

To meet the new federal standards, auto companies will have to drastically change their product lineups in a relatively short time. For starters, the automakers will probably have to sharply reduce the number of low-mileage models, like pickup trucks and large sedans.

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post #2 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:10 AM
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Obama needs to realize that it doesn't matter what he wants, it matters what we are willing to buy.

That being said, the vette's get what I consider amazing mileage.

You will see more douchebag rides like the double segway to meet the requirements.

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post #3 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:48 AM
 
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We just need to utilize more turbo technology
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post #4 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:51 AM
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The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers is on board with this. Their press release stated that they would benefit from one common regulation across all 50 states instead of having to build different cars for California and the rest of the country.

However I think they had another big reason. Apparently the new regulation includes $50BILLION in low interest loans for retooling. I'm pretty sure that is a motivation. There is also word that their will be government assistance to help companies develop plug in hybrids. This assistance includes help to develop and buy batteries.

The actual proposal will be out later today. I'll have a read give ya'll the cliffs notes. I'm betting their will be some sizable loopholes. For instance, current CAFE regulations cut manufactures some slack if they build flex fuel cars that burn ethanol. That is one reason GM is so heavy on flex fuel trucks. It helps their CAFE numbers. Another loophole may be on how the EPA actually determines mileage figures.

Cars like the Corvette may not be endangered as you might think. As Sean88gt correctly pointed out, the Vette is already a pretty economical car when you consider that it makes over 400hp. Sure it gets less than 42mpg but CAFE is a FLEET AVERAGE. GM doesn't have to get 42mpg out of every single car they build. If the Volt is rated at 100mpg, the Corvette can still get 25mpg and still meet the standards. Selling one Volt would let you sell TWO Vettes. Other cars like the Aveo and Spark will help things along as well. GM just has to sell those in greater numbers to meet the average.

On the truck side of things, GM is almost ahead of the game. Their new Equinox is supposed to get 32mpg. That will go a long way in helping their fleet average.

But there can very well be a downside to this in that cars are VERY likely to get more expensive. Ford is going to meet the standards by using EcoBoost (turbo charging and direct injection) on their entire engine line up (except for V8 engines). These engines appear to deliver on performance and torque but they are EXPENSIVE. That engine is one of the main reasons why the new Taurus SHO will cost $38000. The largest four cylinder version is going into the next Explorer and is expected to get 250hp but you know that isn't going to come cheap. I also fear that the V8 may finally be killed off.

You're also going to see more aluminum and carbon fiber in cars. Those materials really do cut down on weight but are expensive.

The first line of cars for these new standards are getting ready to high showroom floors already. Ford releases the new Fiesta this fall and it is actually getting rave reviews. Even a gear head like Jeremy Clarkson likes it. GM is releasing the Cruize which is expected to get up to 45mpg. That Equinox I mentioned comes out this summer.
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post #5 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:57 AM
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A random thought occurred. What if Obama offered $50billion as an incentive to corporations to use more telecommuting. I wonder how many people we could pull off the roads with that kind of money. If you just get 10% of daily commuters off the roads it would make a for a huge drop in the amount of oil we use everyday...

I bet it could be done for a lot less than $50billion.
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post #6 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:09 AM
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A random thought occurred. What if Obama offered $50billion as an incentive to corporations to use more telecommuting. I wonder how many people we could pull off the roads with that kind of money. If you just get 10% of daily commuters off the roads it would make a for a huge drop in the amount of oil we use everyday...

I bet it could be done for a lot less than $50billion.
Where would the 50 billion come from. Are you suggesting more corporate welfare? I'm burnt out on Obama giving away billions of our money. And by the way, WE DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY LEFT. WE ARE BROKE. WE ARE SPENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WE DON'T HAVE.
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post #7 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:17 AM
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We just need to utilize more turbo technology

I am good with that idea! $$$$
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post #8 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:25 AM
 
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Bmw has a new 3 cylinder
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post #9 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:33 AM
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Obama is a fucking clueless idiot. Going from where we are to 35-36 mpg average is going to drastically change the way vehicles look and perform. Remember, they still have to pass certain requirements for safety but heavy cars do not get good mpgs. What is left? A sub compact POS loaded to the ass with safety features and zilch for power. I can go out on a line and say looks will suffer as well.
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post #10 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:36 AM
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This isn't Obama's idea. It's something that has been coming.

Every article over the past year about the new Covette ZR1 has stated that this is coming and will probably mean the ZR1 will only be made for a year or two because of it.

I really hate "defending" a democrat, but you Hatebama's need to calm the eff down.

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post #11 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:00 AM
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Where would the 50 billion come from. Are you suggesting more corporate welfare? I'm burnt out on Obama giving away billions of our money. And by the way, WE DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY LEFT. WE ARE BROKE. WE ARE SPENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WE DON'T HAVE.
You're absolutely right and I should have mentioned that. I would rather that the government just leave the whole damn thing alone. However, the reality is that they aren't going to do that.

My main point though is that getting people off the roads through telecommuting would probably accomplish the same goal (reducing CO^2 and oil dependence) for less money. I telecommute everyday and I guarantee you that I use A LOT less gas than a guy on a 20mile commute in a Prius.

I did a quick bit of research on Google. In 2004, the US workforce is about 138million. The average distance is about 16 miles and that takes and average of 26 minutes to drive. The VAST majority of us commute alone in our cars. If you can get 13million cars off the road it will let everyone else drive a lot faster which saves gas. Of course it also completely eliminates gas used by those telecommuters.

So basically I'm saying that if their real goal is to reduce emissions and oil consumption then this is a much better way of doing it. Changing CAFE standards will have little or no effect for decades. Something like this could be implemented fairly quickly (a few years) and have an immediate impact.
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This isn't Obama's idea. It's something that has been coming.

Every article over the past year about the new Covette ZR1 has stated that this is coming and will probably mean the ZR1 will only be made for a year or two because of it.

I really hate "defending" a democrat, but you Hatebama's need to calm the eff down.
This is true. The new CAFE standards were kicked off by the Bush administration. Obama is accelerating and expanding the implementation but it was already a done deal even before Obama announced his candidacy.
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post #13 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:02 AM
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i dont think i could give a rats ass.....i cant afford anything that goes fast anyway...

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i dont think i could give a rats ass.....i cant afford anything that goes fast anyway...
But after this, you might not be able to afford anything that is slow...
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post #15 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:08 AM
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But after this, you might not be able to afford anything that is slow...
muther fuking!

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post #16 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:27 AM
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It is and has been inevitable for the past 6yrs. EURO union has been cracking down even harder for years on emissions and gas mileage. Why do you guys think that the BMW has been letting go of their V-8 and 10s and using the twin turbo 6 and 8s to make power? The next M3 will go back to a 6cyl.

As long as they don't start gathering up OLD cars then, oh well........what can we do?

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post #17 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:28 AM
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Of course the car companies are on board with it, the government controls them now. It is a beautiful plot.

As I said in the political forum, get ready to pay $50K for a six cylinder mustang. You can count on the costs of engineering all this bullshit to be passed along to the consumer. These environmental idiots are not going to stop with this bullshit. What will be next after this?

Meanwhile there are 1.3 billion Chinamen burning coal as fast as they can dig it up and driving cars with ZERO emissions equipment. How many millions of Indians doing the same thing? I don't even know.
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post #18 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:29 AM
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what can we do?
Uhhh...not vote for idealistic idiots who are in favor of these things?
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post #19 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:31 AM
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Uhhh...not vote for idealistic idiots who are in favor of these things?

All u will do is get a Republican who will eventually give into the rest of the world.

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post #20 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:36 AM
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Didn't Hitler force VW to build a cheap and relieble car, the bug? Just saying. Look how well Germany turned out under his leadership.
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post #21 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:36 AM
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This isn't Obama's idea. It's something that has been coming.

Every article over the past year about the new Covette ZR1 has stated that this is coming and will probably mean the ZR1 will only be made for a year or two because of it.

I really hate "defending" a democrat, but you Hatebama's need to calm the eff down.
When he proposes massive increases like this along with everything else he is doing, it is his fault.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
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post #22 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:38 AM
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Didn't Hitler force VW to build a cheap and relieble car, the bug? Just saying. Look how well Germany turned out under his leadership.



Look how well Germany turned out under Hitlers leadership? Are you fucking serious?
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post #23 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:39 AM
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All u will do is get a Republican who will eventually give into the rest of the world.
Please. As opposed to a flaming liberal who promised to overtax the populous to boost health care up and hand us over to the world?

A TRUE conservative carries the beliefs of the founding fathers in regards to a limited government and self growth. Not the other way around. The modern liberal believes in a highly limited self and massive government growth.

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post #24 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:40 AM
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Look how well Germany turned out under Hitlers leadership? Are you fucking serious?
I think there is sarcasm in there, Eric

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post #25 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:44 AM
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Look how well Germany turned out under Hitlers leadership? Are you fucking serious?

What about all the good things Hitler did? lol
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What about all the good things Hitler did? lol
[marge schott]Hitler was good in the beginning, but he went too far. [/marge schott]
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post #27 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:50 AM
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What about all the good things Hitler did? lol
Best dressed military in history!

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post #28 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:52 AM
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When he proposes massive increases like this along with everything else he is doing, it is his fault.
No, no no. When he proposes this while controlling the car company that would oppose it the most, GM, then yes it is his fault. The government now controls environmental policy as it relates to automobiles as well as the largest opponent to that environmental policy.

Let's all sit back and watch how this all ends up, it truly is going to be a great moment in American history.

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No, no no. When he proposes this while controlling the car company that would oppose it the most, GM, then yes it is his fault. The government now controls environmental policy as it relates to automobils as well as the largest opponent to that environmental policy.
damn good point.
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post #30 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:53 AM
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Make sure you hold on to the V8s you have now. I've thought about selling mine several times lately because I don't drive it that much. I won't sell it now.
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post #31 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:01 AM
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Make sure you hold on to the V8s you have now. I've thought about selling mine several times lately because I don't drive it that much. I won't sell it now.
That's it!
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post #32 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:12 AM
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Best dressed military in history!
Favorite line in the movie Departed "or do you like coming to work looking like you are about to invade Poland". I wonder how many people actually get that joke.
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post #33 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:14 AM
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That's it!
I'm building me a mountain motor now. 800 ++ incher, 16:1 comp, twins, juice etc... And that's just to mow the lawn with!


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So you can swap the valvesprings out between lawn mowings? lol



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post #34 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:17 AM
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What about all the good things Hitler did? lol
He repaired their mass unemployment rate by creating social jobs to build roads and what not, sound familiar here in this new age. But once again look how well Germany turned out under his leadership. Fucking sheep!! lol

I wonder how much time will pass before the socialist nut huggers start to realize they can not afford to live in Obama's world and turn on him. Maybe they pull a Pelosie "I was not briefed pick whatever bs you want that obama is selling and put here"
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post #35 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:20 AM
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Favorite line in the movie Departed "or do you like coming to work looking like you are about to invade Poland". I wonder how many people actually get that joke.
Maybe 10 of us.

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post #36 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:25 AM
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Everything AL P typed in this thread is spot on.

I can't believe what is happening to this country right before our eyes. It's a tragedy.

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post #37 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:28 AM
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If Obama says it will work...what are you guys worried about?
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post #38 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:36 AM
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He repaired their mass unemployment rate by creating social jobs to build roads and what not, sound familiar here in this new age. But once again look how well Germany turned out under his leadership. Fucking sheep!! lol

I wonder how much time will pass before the socialist nut huggers start to realize they can not afford to live in Obama's world and turn on him. Maybe they pull a Pelosie "I was not briefed pick whatever bs you want that obama is selling and put here"
As much as it pains anyone to say it, that nut did do some positive things. Any sane person hates to say it because it lends one of the most evil people that ever existed some credibility. But even he recognized that socialism was horseshit and did what he did by uniting the Germans under the idea of nationalism and pride. We don't even have that, what is going on in this country right now is self loathing bullshit mixed with robbing of the treasury.
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post #39 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:37 AM
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Maybe 10 of us.


Great movie, BTW.

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post #40 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:40 AM
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So you can swap the valvesprings out between lawn mowings? lol
Hey, it's my fantasy. Turbo's and stratospheric compression work every time!


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post #41 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:42 AM
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Hey, it's my fantasy. Turbo's and stratospheric compression work every time!


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Diesel say wha??

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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post #42 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:42 AM
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Please. As opposed to a flaming liberal who promised to overtax the populous to boost health care up and hand us over to the world?

A TRUE conservative carries the beliefs of the founding fathers in regards to a limited government and self growth. Not the other way around. The modern liberal believes in a highly limited self and massive government growth.
Stay on topic. What does this have to do with the price of gas in China? I mean. Really? The founding fathers had no idea of what the world's energy view would be in 2009. Any Repub that gets elected even the next term which i hope one does................he will make concessions for energy because it IS becoming an issue that he/she will have to deal with.

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post #43 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:49 AM
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Any Repub that gets elected even the next term which i hope one does.........
I want to make sure I read that right. You don't want Obama re-elected?

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post #44 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:50 AM
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Stay on topic. What does this have to do with the price of gas in China? I mean. Really? The founding fathers had no idea of what the world's energy view would be in 2009. Any Repub that gets elected even the next term which i hope one does................he will make concessions for energy because it IS becoming an issue that he/she will have to deal with.
You brought it into the discussion. This situation is handle-able, and as the forerunners we need to act like such. Not tuck our dick between our legs and hand a stick over to the world to lash us with.

Fact: Americans are better than everyone else.
Another fact: We should act like it.

I'm not saying that in terms of acting like the Brits and being haughty, but our individualism, pride, drive and desire are unmatched world wide. Innovation will happen when the MARKET drives it, not politicians. Everything that this current group of JBT's is trying to force down our throat only strips us of our rights, freedoms, individuality, drive, pride, passion and pursuit to better ourselves - and the majority of people are not only sitting back letting it happen, but embracing it because somewhere along the way history was forgotten and now everyone feels it is their right to receive a handout. Fuck that.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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post #45 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:53 AM
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A random thought occurred. What if Obama offered $50billion as an incentive to corporations to use more telecommuting. I wonder how many people we could pull off the roads with that kind of money. If you just get 10% of daily commuters off the roads it would make a for a huge drop in the amount of oil we use everyday...

I bet it could be done for a lot less than $50billion.
The problem with that is that you have a lot of old school managers out there that expect to see people at their desks everyday, and who are convinced that people are screwing off if they are working from home. I used to work for one of these guys, and we had endless battles over it. He would actually walk around at 8-9am to see who was at their desks, although he denied that was what he was doing.

His micromanagement finally got him ousted from the company thank god. And, to go along with the "you need to be at your desk" attitude is an element of "everyone else comes in, you can too". It's frustrating for those of us that can work from home and have long ass commutes into the office.
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post #46 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 10:11 AM
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You brought it into the discussion. This situation is handle-able, and as the forerunners we need to act like such. Not tuck our dick between our legs and hand a stick over to the world to lash us with.
Actually I brought into the convo, how a Repub will have to deal with the pressure internally within our borders and externally, to come up with an Energy solution. Not, the same old tire Dem vs. Repub debate. The CAFE standards have been going up every year but, when a Dem announces it you guys scream bloody murder. Yeah, the Gov now basically controls GM......so was that planned? Was it an evil plot by Pres. Obama to do that? Or did they and many other companies go with their hat in their hand? Many repubs didn't want GM to die.........this is the outcome. Control has been handed to the Gov. And now we see the results. They drive the policy.

Quote:
Fact: Americans are better than everyone else.
Another fact: We should act like it.
purley opinion and very arguable.

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post #47 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 10:20 AM
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i could care less about new cars with high horsepower, id rather drive something that me a nd friends built anyway.
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post #48 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 10:26 AM
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Actually I brought into the convo, how a Repub will have to deal with the pressure internally within our borders and externally, to come up with an Energy solution. Not, the same old tire Dem vs. Repub debate. The CAFE standards have been going up every year but, when a Dem announces it you guys scream bloody murder. Yeah, the Gov now basically controls GM......so was that planned? Was it an evil plot by Pres. Obama to do that? Or did they and many other companies go with their hat in their hand? Many repubs didn't want GM to die.........this is the outcome. Control has been handed to the Gov. And now we see the results. They drive the policy.

purley opinion and very arguable.
By who? And is the 'purley' thing a white joke!?

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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post #49 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 10:28 AM
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Actually I brought into the convo, how a Repub will have to deal with the pressure internally within our borders and externally, to come up with an Energy solution. Not, the same old tire Dem vs. Repub debate. The CAFE standards have been going up every year but, when a Dem announces it you guys scream bloody murder. Yeah, the Gov now basically controls GM......so was that planned? Was it an evil plot by Pres. Obama to do that? Or did they and many other companies go with their hat in their hand? Many repubs didn't want GM to die.........this is the outcome. Control has been handed to the Gov. And now we see the results. They drive the policy.

purley opinion and very arguable.
You are right, we all must be crazy for not liking this. This is going to turn out really well. I can't wait for everyone to see how good this is.
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post #50 of 85 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 10:34 AM
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You are right, we all must be crazy for not liking this. This is going to turn out really well. I can't wait for everyone to see how good this is.
Why don't u run for office, then? We all sat by and watched these fools make stupid cars that didn't sell. The let the UAW control them. They made 3 different brand models of the same stupid car. When the economy balances itself out, like it always does........if it didn't they wouldn't have terms to describe recessions, depressions, inflation and what not, and then GM find themselves going for handouts. The maj. of lawmakers (repubs too) thought that they NEEDED to be rescued.

When you ask for loans you are basically giving ownership of yourself. Love it or hate it..............it's here. What are you gonna do about it aside from posting on DFWstang.net? Not buy a twin turbo ecoboost car 10yrs from now?

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