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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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Final Nail in the coffin for big 2

All this Talk about Chrysler and GM closing dealerships across the country has got me thinking about something that I surely hope the big 2 hasn't over looked in their hast to cut cost at any cost. Everyone knows that the dealerships that are on the cutting block are mostly small town middle of America dealerships that don't turn a big enough profit for the big boys, but non the less still manage to survive and provide decent jobs in their communities. It's no secret that Toyota and Nissan have been saying for years that in order for them to really bust out in the American market they need dealerships in small towns across America. This is something they really lack and a market they have been unable to enter because the Big 3 have had their grasp on it for decades.

With the closing of thousands of Dealerships across America, Detroit has just given Foreign AutoMakers a free pass to enter their last strong hold and are going to allow Toyota, Nissan and others to cherry pick the best dealerships at rock bottom prices. This is going to help Toyota and Nissan's sales numbers go through the roof. Alot of folks especially in small towns have blind loyalty to Detroit Automakers, but I beleive that will start to melt away when the local dealership is now selling Toyotas and that same dealership is providing their family and friends with a paycheck.

I truely beleive that Karma is going to come back and bite Chrysler and GM in the ass on this latest move. Everyone talks about how these corporate giants are to big to fail, but folks forget that these corporations were built on the backs of the small town guys. I was watching the Evening News and they interviewed dealer after dealer that was going to be shut down and all their stories were pretty much the same. Their grandfather or great grandfather had started that dealership and it had been selling GM or Chrysler cars for decades. Something tells me those folks ain't going anywhere and for Detroit to think they will close their doors quietly without a fight is a huge business mistake. The little guys built detroit and the little guys will put them out of business because Detroit has forgotten where they came from.

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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:19 AM
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I thought about this same thing this morning. The local Ford/Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Caddy dealer was just shut down (dealer issue, not brand issues) and now a dealership is empty and the owners are taking bidders. Ford has expressed interest, but I seriously felt that a Toyota dealership would thrive.

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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:23 AM
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Why don't the USA tax the shit out of anyone who buys a foreign vehicle in the US? Any US vehicle that is exported the person who buys it has to by a high tax on it. I have heard it was somewhere close to 100%. That may stop alot of people here from buying foreign vehicles.
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:29 AM
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Why don't the USA tax the shit out of anyone who buys a foreign vehicle in the US? Any US vehicle that is exported the person who buys it has to by a high tax on it. I have heard it was somewhere close to 100%. That may stop alot of people here from buying foreign vehicles.
thats about retarded....
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:42 AM
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Why don't the USA tax the shit out of anyone who buys a foreign vehicle in the US? Any US vehicle that is exported the person who buys it has to by a high tax on it. I have heard it was somewhere close to 100%. That may stop alot of people here from buying foreign vehicles.
And what happens in regards to Toyota USA or Nissan USA when they have vehicles made here?

And Dodge Rams = foreign. Manufactured in Mexico.

I agree that the tariffs are unfair and that a 250% tariff on anything produced in China might just save our ass (from Chinese take over, not the internal destruction that the politicians are doing).

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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 11:06 AM
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All this Talk about Chrysler and GM closing dealerships across the country has got me thinking about something that I surely hope the big 2 hasn't over looked in their hast to cut cost at any cost. Everyone knows that the dealerships that are on the cutting block are mostly small town middle of America dealerships that don't turn a big enough profit for the big boys, but non the less still manage to survive and provide decent jobs in their communities. It's no secret that Toyota and Nissan have been saying for years that in order for them to really bust out in the American market they need dealerships in small towns across America. This is something they really lack and a market they have been unable to enter because the Big 3 have had their grasp on it for decades.

With the closing of thousands of Dealerships across America, Detroit has just given Foreign AutoMakers a free pass to enter their last strong hold and are going to allow Toyota, Nissan and others to cherry pick the best dealerships at rock bottom prices. This is going to help Toyota and Nissan's sales numbers go through the roof. Alot of folks especially in small towns have blind loyalty to Detroit Automakers, but I beleive that will start to melt away when the local dealership is now selling Toyotas and that same dealership is providing their family and friends with a paycheck.

I truely beleive that Karma is going to come back and bite Chrysler and GM in the ass on this latest move. Everyone talks about how these corporate giants are to big to fail, but folks forget that these corporations were built on the backs of the small town guys. I was watching the Evening News and they interviewed dealer after dealer that was going to be shut down and all their stories were pretty much the same. Their grandfather or great grandfather had started that dealership and it had been selling GM or Chrysler cars for decades. Something tells me those folks ain't going anywhere and for Detroit to think they will close their doors quietly without a fight is a huge business mistake. The little guys built detroit and the little guys will put them out of business because Detroit has forgotten where they came from.

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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 11:25 AM
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I get your point about letting foreign automakers get a foot in the small market, but I don't necesarily think it will be the death of them. If those stores were doing so well, wouldn't they be turning enough profit to have not been on the list? I don't know the criteria for the list, but it wouldn't make sense to cut your best stores.

It seems like you are mad at GM and Chrysler for cutting dealerships? I know these closing are going to hurt the 2000 stores effected, but how much more would it hurt the entire country if they continued on with the status-quo and every dealer got shut down? It's not that they forgot where they came from, they are closing under performing stores, I don't really see the problem in that.

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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 11:37 AM
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I get your point about letting foreign automakers get a foot in the small market, but I don't necesarily think it will be the death of them. If those stores were doing so well, wouldn't they be turning enough profit to have not been on the list? I don't know the criteria for the list, but it wouldn't make sense to cut your best stores.

It seems like you are mad at GM and Chrysler for cutting dealerships? I know these closing are going to hurt the 2000 stores effected, but how much more would it hurt the entire country if they continued on with the status-quo and every dealer got shut down? It's not that they forgot where they came from, they are closing under performing stores, I don't really see the problem in that.
With all the dealerships that are closed you are talking about a loss of thousands upon thousands of jobs lost. How do you think that is going to affect them? That is loss of sales alone all those people out of work, so no new cars sales out of that, plus loyalty loss. Most dealerships don't make jack shit for profit on new cars, it is the new car sales, that leads to loyalty for customers to return to purchase used cars where they make huge profits. If the dealerships are providing a service and gm tells them that they have to front their own inventory cash they should be allowed to keep their franchise name, I will bet most of them are just going to stop the franchise of gm, chrysler, or whoever and just reopen with a different franchise. Which as stated above is going to be an asian car most likely. Ford wants all their dealerships to be open as ford/lincoln/mercury and ones that can't won't be able to renew franchise.

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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 11:44 AM
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Until the "Big 3" or what ever is left over, get out from under the parasitic union labor contracts, they're done... due to no fault other than their own.

The continuing arrogant attitudes displayed by the US domestic car dealerships, bolstered by their OEM support dwindling, and piss poor after sale service has all but signed the death warrant for many stores, jobs and ancillary businesses within the US Auto industry.

In the US, Ford may survive, Chrysler is pretty much done, with GM not far behind.... they'll likely regroup and and rebuild themselves outside of the US, and who could blame them?

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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 11:47 AM
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I get your point about letting foreign automakers get a foot in the small market, but I don't necesarily think it will be the death of them. If those stores were doing so well, wouldn't they be turning enough profit to have not been on the list? I don't know the criteria for the list, but it wouldn't make sense to cut your best stores.

It seems like you are mad at GM and Chrysler for cutting dealerships? I know these closing are going to hurt the 2000 stores effected, but how much more would it hurt the entire country if they continued on with the status-quo and every dealer got shut down? It's not that they forgot where they came from, they are closing under performing stores, I don't really see the problem in that.
They aren't cutting them strictly based on sales. While there are some that only sell a handful of cars a month, many are large dealers. Those areas are going to be under served and Toyota/Nissan would have an excellent chance to expand their market share.

But I also think Ford is going to get a great opportunity out of this too. They are not closing ANY of their dealers. The only attrition going on there is from dealers that close their doors on their own.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 11:58 AM
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why should they close at all...having that dealership open doesn't cost GM/Chrysler a fucking dime....oh wait..Yes it does! Warranty claims!!!! If the dealer is no longer open, you have to drive your happy ass to the big city to get your GM or chrysler fixed. THAT is how they are going to save money by closing dealerships....not from NOT selling enough cars. They are figuring people will just say fuck it and pay to fix it themselves. The nightmare for them is going to come when people say " come pick up my broken car " 300 miles from nowhere and that $400 tow bill on top of a $15 warranty call eats their ass!

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 12:04 PM
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With all the dealerships that are closed you are talking about a loss of thousands upon thousands of jobs lost. How do you think that is going to affect them? That is loss of sales alone all those people out of work, so no new cars sales out of that, plus loyalty loss. Most dealerships don't make jack shit for profit on new cars, it is the new car sales, that leads to loyalty for customers to return to purchase used cars where they make huge profits. If the dealerships are providing a service and gm tells them that they have to front their own inventory cash they should be allowed to keep their franchise name, I will bet most of them are just going to stop the franchise of gm, chrysler, or whoever and just reopen with a different franchise. Which as stated above is going to be an asian car most likely. Ford wants all their dealerships to be open as ford/lincoln/mercury and ones that can't won't be able to renew franchise.
No, I get that the closing are going to hurt the entire cycle, my point is it is either 2,000 dealerships, or the entire company. Your choice.

If your bet is correct (which it most likely isn't) then there will be not be that many jobs lost because they will just start selling Toyota instead of Chrysler, no need to fire anybody right?

I don't think Ford or any of the bigger foreign auto makers are really looking to buy the bottom of the barrel dealerships. I think their best bet is a new company trying to get it's name in the game, Tata and the like. (I don't think Tata has a car legal for sale in the US, but that is the type of company I am thinking would want a foothold in the US Market.

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Until the "Big 3" or what ever is left over, get out from under the parasitic union labor contracts, they're done... due to no fault other than their own.

The continuing arrogant attitudes displayed by the US domestic car dealerships, bolstered by their OEM support dwindling, and piss poor after sale service has all but signed the death warrant for many stores, jobs and ancillary businesses within the US Auto industry.

In the US, Ford may survive, Chrysler is pretty much done, with GM not far behind.... they'll likely regroup and and rebuild themselves outside of the US, and who could blame them?

mardyn
The do have fault, they agreed to the contracts. As much as I think the contracts are ridiculously slanted in the worker's favor, GM signed them. Who can be mad at someone for wanting to get what they were promised? It was stupid to sign them in the first place.

If I were to buy a GM vehicle and signed a loan with GMAC, they would expect the money from me. It is the same with the workers IMO.

Now the workers need to pull their heads out of their butts and realize it is $20 less an hour or no job, and if they choose to be hard headed on this (which they have) then they will get the latter. It is a raw deal, but this is a recession, changes have to be made.

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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 12:12 PM
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why should they close at all...having that dealership open doesn't cost GM/Chrysler a fucking dime....oh wait..Yes it does! Warranty claims!!!! If the dealer is no longer open, you have to drive your happy ass to the big city to get your GM or chrysler fixed. THAT is how they are going to save money by closing dealerships....not from NOT selling enough cars. They are figuring people will just say fuck it and pay to fix it themselves. The nightmare for them is going to come when people say " come pick up my broken car " 300 miles from nowhere and that $400 tow bill on top of a $15 warranty call eats their ass!

Hence the reason I am concerned about my warranty on my new Ram.
If you really think having a franchise is free then that is your first problem. I'm sure you are smart enough to know that is not true and you are just upset about having to drive to get your truck fixed.

I'm sure some people will just pay to have it fixed themselves, especially on small stuff, but I highly doubt that was a main reason for closing down any dealership.

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They aren't cutting them strictly based on sales. While there are some that only sell a handful of cars a month, many are large dealers. Those areas are going to be under served and Toyota/Nissan would have an excellent chance to expand their market share.

But I also think Ford is going to get a great opportunity out of this too. They are not closing ANY of their dealers. The only attrition going on there is from dealers that close their doors on their own.
I would be interested to know what the other factors were, because I agree it probably wasn't just sales.

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 12:40 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Toyota hasn't exactly been thriving as of late. They are rumored to be getting money from the Japanese government as well. I doubt that will see much Toyota expansion anytime real soon, even in these vacancies.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 01:04 PM
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The fact of the matter is that Toyota and Honda are more American than GM and Dodge. Respectively, they have a much higher assembly rate than their US counterparts, with the exception being Ford. Hell, how many plants, and subsidiary companies (US Hydraulics, what?), did GM and Dodge shut down, starting in the early '90's, and move to Mexico? Toyota and Honda built a sleeker company, put a lot of Americans to work at a reasonable wage, and sold a lot more a dependable car. So far, Ford seems to be the only company that saw the writing on the wall. GM still has a chance, but Dodge has been building shit for years, with no other plans. Even if they rebadge a Fiat 500, what then? Anyone heard any new ideas? I haven't. Sorry for the vitriol, but I've had it with big corporations' sob stories, be they automotive or financial. Sure, they represent a huge segment of the economy, but them collapsing doesn't mean no one will take their place. The tooling won't sit idle, it'll go at auction, and the execs, engineers, and designers with mobility will move on, and even start new firms of their own. That's free enterprise.

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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 01:30 PM
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Why don't the USA tax the shit out of anyone who buys a foreign vehicle in the US? Any US vehicle that is exported the person who buys it has to by a high tax on it. I have heard it was somewhere close to 100%. That may stop alot of people here from buying foreign vehicles.
LMAO.... There ya go... tax people for trying to buy a nice car. The big 3 fucked themselves in the 70's/80's by building shitty vehicles that got terrible mileage. The foreign car market grew exponentially because of this. If you want to tax anyone, tax the big 3 for building shit cars that allowed a competitor to take part of their market share.

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 01:32 PM
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Supposedly the reason that they are closing dealers has to do with competition between dealers that are located near each other driving down prices, although closing the mom & pop chevy dealer in smalltown USA thats been there for 80+ years seems to be a different deal, doesn't it? I personally think that they are using this chance to clean out underperforming dealers. And it will have a marked effect on small towns all across the US in many ways. OTOH, it opens up business opportunities if someone can figure out how to use that dealership space, perhaps to sell used cars or to sell foreign cars.

The US auto makers don't have a chance against the foreign automakers. The reason is that the US automakers have to deal with the union and have to deal with legacy costs (pensions). Perhaps GM should not have signed certain contracts, but the union most times was holding a gun to their head to make them do it. Simply, the UAW gorged themselves at the trough and killed the golden goose. Instead of having a good job that pays $20-30/hour they'll eventually get nothing.

Meanwhile, the foreign automakers will not allow unions, build their plants in right to work states with already low labor costs, do not hire ex union people, and do not have a business structure where they have to carry pensions. GM's business structure is from the "old world" while the foreign automakers structure is from the "new world".

Somehow, ford is hanging on, and I don't see how. They may very well have their own bankruptcy bridge to cross in the future.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 01:56 PM
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Somehow, ford is hanging on, and I don't see how. They may very well have their own bankruptcy bridge to cross in the future.
I believe its because Ford has good presence in Europe, that has helped it stay afloat.

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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 03:08 PM
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If you really think having a franchise is free then that is your first problem. I'm sure you are smart enough to know that is not true and you are just upset about having to drive to get your truck fixed.

I'm sure some people will just pay to have it fixed themselves, especially on small stuff, but I highly doubt that was a main reason for closing down any dealership.


I would be interested to know what the other factors were, because I agree it probably wasn't just sales.

I have a dodge dealer 2 miles from my house... Not pissed.

So what are the costs of having a franchise? Advertising? They already do that regardless if most of these places are open or not, and that is 100% locally paid for local channels.

Show me a breakdown of what Chrysler pays it's dealerships that aren't associated with the individual sale of a consignment vehicle and I will consider your argument. The dealer pays it's employees, pays it's utility bills and mortgage/lease costs. Chrysler pays them for selling a SOLD vehicle and WARRANTY calls...to the best of my knowledge that is all. If they are paying more than that, they need to get kicked in the shorts. Only thing I can think of is that if it's a small dealer that has less than 50 cars on the lot in BFE, Chrysler might be subsidizing the rent....but even then you are talking about a cup of costs compared to the atlantic ocean of direct overhead.

Otherwise, why the hell would you cut off your ability to sell cars out in the marketplace. I believe that would be one of the key things on the "Business 101" list of must haves to sell shit....?



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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 03:15 PM
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The fact of the matter is that Toyota and Honda are more American than GM and Dodge. Respectively, they have a much higher assembly rate than their US counterparts, with the exception being Ford. Hell, how many plants, and subsidiary companies (US Hydraulics, what?), did GM and Dodge shut down, starting in the early '90's, and move to Mexico? Toyota and Honda built a sleeker company, put a lot of Americans to work at a reasonable wage, and sold a lot more a dependable car. So far, Ford seems to be the only company that saw the writing on the wall. GM still has a chance, but Dodge has been building shit for years, with no other plans. Even if they rebadge a Fiat 500, what then? Anyone heard any new ideas? I haven't. Sorry for the vitriol, but I've had it with big corporations' sob stories, be they automotive or financial. Sure, they represent a huge segment of the economy, but them collapsing doesn't mean no one will take their place. The tooling won't sit idle, it'll go at auction, and the execs, engineers, and designers with mobility will move on, and even start new firms of their own. That's free enterprise.

I think you missed the point of those GM and Dodge closures...they moved them out of the US to get rid of the UAW. GM fucked up and many of their suppliers' employees are also UAW members. Ford has done some of the same but not near as much because they got better contracts with the UAW.

Toyota and Honda STARTED in the US with no unions. The part that needs fixed is shit canning the UAW. It would almost bring all 3 back to life in a matter of MINUTES!



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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 04:01 PM
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Toyota and Honda STARTED in the US with no unions. The part that needs fixed is shit canning the UAW. It would almost bring all 3 back to life in a matter of MINUTES!
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 04:19 PM
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I have a dodge dealer 2 miles from my house... Not pissed.

So what are the costs of having a franchise? Advertising? They already do that regardless if most of these places are open or not, and that is 100% locally paid for local channels.

Show me a breakdown of what Chrysler pays it's dealerships that aren't associated with the individual sale of a consignment vehicle and I will consider your argument. The dealer pays it's employees, pays it's utility bills and mortgage/lease costs. Chrysler pays them for selling a SOLD vehicle and WARRANTY calls...to the best of my knowledge that is all. If they are paying more than that, they need to get kicked in the shorts. Only thing I can think of is that if it's a small dealer that has less than 50 cars on the lot in BFE, Chrysler might be subsidizing the rent....but even then you are talking about a cup of costs compared to the atlantic ocean of direct overhead.

Otherwise, why the hell would you cut off your ability to sell cars out in the marketplace. I believe that would be one of the key things on the "Business 101" list of must haves to sell shit....?
Wouldn't have guessed it since your whole post is about having to drive too far for warranty work. Looking out for others I suppose...

When I say advertising, I mean they give dealers money to advertise their specific dealership, on top of the general "Chevy" or "Ford" adds you see.

I thought I put this in here earlier but apparently it was another thread. I though the same thing you do, so I went around my office asking people this question. Most of the the people in my office have worked in car dealerships and understand that side of things better than I do. I can't explain too much to you, but I can say this: If it were free to have franchises on every corner and they were not saving any money by doing this then they wouldn't do it. It's that simple. I don't know exactly how, maybe it is not as "direct" as we are thinking, but they wouldn't take their product off of lots it it weren't saving money somewhere.


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Toyota and Honda STARTED in the US with no unions. The part that needs fixed is shit canning the UAW. It would almost bring all 3 back to life in a matter of MINUTES!
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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I see you've been listening to Ed Wallace..
Nope sure haven't.

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:11 PM
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Wouldn't have guessed it since your whole post is about having to drive too far for warranty work. Looking out for others I suppose...

When I say advertising, I mean they give dealers money to advertise their specific dealership, on top of the general "Chevy" or "Ford" adds you see.
I have some experience dealing with franchises (not car dealers) but I can tell you the "subsidies" from the parent company are shit.

So lets figure Dodge gives each of these 800 dealers $50,000/yr for local advertising. That is only $40M....that is chump change. Here is a better number to look at 36000 UAW employees in one 8 hour shift at the average of $70/hr PT&I/B....$21,312,000 PER DAY. So closing 800 dealerships saves TWO days of payroll... So fucking what?! Now, cut those fucking wages in HALF, times 242 working days per year and voila! $2.77B...

So Whose plan is better?!

Either way, showing that even cutting the direct labor costs by 1/2 couldn't even cover the debt burn rate at this point. You would have to get the current labor costs down to less than 1/3 the current cost to even get them on the road to the black. It's pretty fucking pathetic really.

I would imagine GM is even worse....but what I find interesting is that the deals being struck for Dodge and GM with the UAW aren't even close to being the same.

What I find even funnier is that the crooked UAW is now in bed with a bunch of Italians! WAR in the boardroom!!!



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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:20 PM
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What I find even funnier is that the crooked UAW is now in bed with a bunch of Italians! WAR in the boardroom!!!

My neighbor is Italian. They sure have some good food...
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:42 PM
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I have some experience dealing with franchises (not car dealers) but I can tell you the "subsidies" from the parent company are shit.

So lets figure Dodge gives each of these 800 dealers $50,000/yr for local advertising. That is only $40M....that is chump change. Here is a better number to look at 36000 UAW employees in one 8 hour shift at the average of $70/hr PT&I/B....$21,312,000 PER DAY. So closing 800 dealerships saves TWO days of payroll... So fucking what?! Now, cut those fucking wages in HALF, times 242 working days per year and voila! $2.77B...

So Whose plan is better?!

Either way, showing that even cutting the direct labor costs by 1/2 couldn't even cover the debt burn rate at this point. You would have to get the current labor costs down to less than 1/3 the current cost to even get them on the road to the black. It's pretty fucking pathetic really.

I would imagine GM is even worse....but what I find interesting is that the deals being struck for Dodge and GM with the UAW aren't even close to being the same.

What I find even funnier is that the crooked UAW is now in bed with a bunch of Italians! WAR in the boardroom!!!
Whose plan is better? I guess I missed the point where this became a UAW vs. Chrysler discussion. I agree with you about the UAW for the most part, but I still think the current plan is going to help them out.

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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 12:03 AM
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What I find even funnier is that the crooked UAW is now in bed with a bunch of Italians!
Lets see, mix in a corrupt, greedy labor union that has 55% ownership of the company with an italian company that has absolutely no skin in the game. Add in the fact that fiat employees are already unhappy and are considering striking. It makes you wonder what the italians are bringing to chrysler that is different from what diamler brought, except with less capital. Kind of a shotgun wedding LOL......

Hell, fiat got run out of the US years ago because of shitty quality. And THEY are supposed to resurrect chrysler? And with the UAW in charge you can bet that the decisions they will make will finish off chrysler, since none of them has ever had to own and run a business before, and make hard decisions. The union cryonism and corruption is not going to work in this case. Fiat is stupid to get in bed with such an organization.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 01:18 AM
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I'm still upset that they announced the closing of Huffines Denton Chrylser Jeep. Unfortunate, good dealership and their service manager is a nice guy.

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it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 02:36 AM
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I think you missed the point of those GM and Dodge closures...they moved them out of the US to get rid of the UAW. GM fucked up and many of their suppliers' employees are also UAW members. Ford has done some of the same but not near as much because they got better contracts with the UAW.

Toyota and Honda STARTED in the US with no unions. The part that needs fixed is shit canning the UAW. It would almost bring all 3 back to life in a matter of MINUTES!
Dude, I understand completely. My point is more that as a consumer, and more to the point a taxpayer, I feel no remorse. Sure, it's a biased opinion. It's not going to change.

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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 05:40 AM
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Lets see, mix in a corrupt, greedy labor union that has 55% ownership of the company with an italian company that has absolutely no skin in the game.
Yeah, the UAW can fuck up a company without owing part of it, what do you think they can do at the helm?! Only positive is that they will be accountable for living or dying....or should I say when they die.

Fiat is actually owned by Ferrari and the head guy is a pretty shrewd fella compared to the fiat of old. Still not a European powerhouse by any means but if Mercedes can't turn the place around, Fiat ain't going to do shit and actually, the best thing that could happen right now is for Fiat to bolt from the deal so it dies on the vine and the UAW doesnt' get shit.

I wish I could find the financing to buy Chrysler and put me in charge. I would tell Osama and the UAW to eat shit and fire every mother fucker on the payroll and find replacement, non-UAW folks who want to work. Tell EVERYONE to piss off in Bankruptcy court, Work the judge over to see things my way and rebuild a once good company. Of Course, I would get Hoffa'd but hey, what a fun ride!



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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Yall got this all wrong. Giving the UAW the controlling interest in the Automakers is the smartest thing they could of done. Ain't no way in hell the UAW is going to rake themselves over the coals when it comes to any new contracts going forward from this time. Some unions with the UAW being the biggest of them, were built on a Pyramid and Ponzi Scheme blue print. For the last several Decades alot of Unions have worked off a simple fundamental that has spread like wild fire. That fundamental is fuck the new guy, that hasn't even been hired yet, at any cost in order to keep the current workers or retirees from having to take a cut in pay or a cut in benefits. This has been going on for sometime now and if you don't beleive me look at the pay and benefits for a UAW memeber with 5 years senority vs one with 30 years senority. The guy that was just hired is stuck in a 2nd tier wage and benefits category and the worst part is no matter how many years he works he will never come close to making what his predecessors make. Mark my words. In the coming months and years with new contracts you will see new employees getting raped to the point were only illegals and highschool dropouts would want to work for an Auto Company. I'd bet money with in a few short years every new hire at a UAW factory will start out making $10 bucks an hour with a benefits package that should be against the law to even be considered as benefits.

If this Ponzi Scheme isn't changed soon it will be the death of many unions. I'm just thankful that my union doesn't partake in this practice.

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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 11:40 AM
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FUCK UNIONS, I have known this^^^^^^ for awhile now.

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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 12:09 PM
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Yall got this all wrong. Giving the UAW the controlling interest in the Automakers is the smartest thing they could of done. Ain't no way in hell the UAW is going to rake themselves over the coals when it comes to any new contracts going forward from this time. Some unions with the UAW being the biggest of them, were built on a Pyramid and Ponzi Scheme blue print. For the last several Decades alot of Unions have worked off a simple fundamental that has spread like wild fire. That fundamental is fuck the new guy, that hasn't even been hired yet, at any cost in order to keep the current workers or retirees from having to take a cut in pay or a cut in benefits. This has been going on for sometime now and if you don't beleive me look at the pay and benefits for a UAW memeber with 5 years senority vs one with 30 years senority. The guy that was just hired is stuck in a 2nd tier wage and benefits category and the worst part is no matter how many years he works he will never come close to making what his predecessors make. Mark my words. In the coming months and years with new contracts you will see new employees getting raped to the point were only illegals and highschool dropouts would want to work for an Auto Company. I'd bet money with in a few short years every new hire at a UAW factory will start out making $10 bucks an hour with a benefits package that should be against the law to even be considered as benefits.

If this Ponzi Scheme isn't changed soon it will be the death of many unions. I'm just thankful that my union doesn't partake in this practice.
You just contradicted your own argument, in one post. Good job. The pay structures for the auto workers should be equitable and sustainable.

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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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You just contradicted your own argument, in one post. Good job. The pay structures for the auto workers should be equitable and sustainable.
No you missed my point. Which was that the Automakers and the UAW will not fail thanks to the fucking that the new employees will be given. This Ponzi Scheme that the UAW is running will come crashing to the ground when they can't find anyone willing to work for $10 an hour and benefits they can't afford to use.

The UAW needs to administer an across the board cut in pay and benefits to current workers and retirees and do away with the two tier wage system they currently have in place. A unions sole purpose is to make it a level playing field for everyone that is part of the union. If I was a UAW member with less than 10 years senority I'd be raising hell. I haven't looked into it but I'd bet money they make the lower wage union members pay the same dues as the higher wage earners.

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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 12:54 PM
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No you missed my point. Which was that the Automakers and the UAW will not fail thanks to the fucking that the new employees will be given. This Ponzi Scheme that the UAW is running will come crashing to the ground when they can't find anyone willing to work for $10 an hour and benefits they can't afford to use.

The UAW needs to administer an across the board cut in pay and benefits to current workers and retirees and do away with the two tier wage system they currently have in place. A unions sole purpose is to make it a level playing field for everyone that is part of the union. If I was a UAW member with less than 10 years senority I'd be raising hell. I haven't looked into it but I'd bet money they make the lower wage union members pay the same dues as the higher wage earners.
I'm with you, but this problem just points at how backwards GM and Dodge have things, that they'd put up with that kind of nonsense.

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