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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Holder and Obama to possibly help Spain prosecute US officials

Does this shit rub anyone else the wrong way?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ainees-torture

Quote:
Spanish court opens investigation of Guantánamo torture allegations


A court in Spain has today opened an investigation into torture allegations against US military personnel at the Guantánamo detention centre.

Meanwhile in Berlin, Barack Obama's attorney general Eric Holder said that about 30 Guantánamo detainees have been cleared for release and urged European allies to take some of them. Holder also signalled the Obama administration might cooperate with the Spanish investigation.

Judge Baltasar Garzón, an investigating magistrate at the National Court in Madrid, said he would investigate allegations made by four detainees who were held at the centre and later released without charges, according to a court document quoted by the Spanish press.

The torture allegations include "sexual abuse", "beating" and the throwing of fluids into prisoners' eyes.

A recent decision by the Obama administration to release documents about Guantánamo helped the judge conclude that a police investigation, which could lead to criminal charges, was necessary.

Have some political enemies? Fuck em, sending em to a foreign court for a while will keep them out of your hair...


And correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Spain kind of "gone off the deep end" according to some of our diplomats? And isn't their leader of the Socialist Party?


.

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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 11:53 AM
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And isn't their leader of the Socialist Party?
Sounds like a perfect ally for this administration!


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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 12:02 PM
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I'm not sure I see the issue here. 4 detainees that were released and never charged claim they were tortured/beaten, etc. (claims). If this were someone in the US stopped for a speeding violation and then detained/beaten, etc., you'd all claim police brutality. How is this any different?

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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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I'm not sure I see the issue here. 4 detainees that were released and never charged claim they were tortured/beaten, etc. (claims). If this were someone in the US stopped for a speeding violation and then detained/beaten, etc., you'd all claim police brutality. How is this any different?
You could be right... but something about everything these guys do just doesn't sit right with me.

General [deep] mistrust, I suppose.


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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 12:08 PM
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This is very different because U.S. military personnel should never be turned over to a foreign court for trial.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 12:27 PM
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I'm not sure I see the issue here. 4 detainees that were released and never charged claim they were tortured/beaten, etc. (claims). If this were someone in the US stopped for a speeding violation and then detained/beaten, etc., you'd all claim police brutality. How is this any different?
So leave it to OUR Judicial System to figure that out... not those fucking Spanish fuckers. And NOT out Commander in Chief giving them the nod of approval. OUR issue, not theirs.

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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 12:56 PM
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So leave it to OUR Judicial System to figure that out... not those fucking Spanish fuckers. And NOT out Commander in Chief giving them the nod of approval. OUR issue, not theirs.

Next time you fuck up at work, have your boss give me a call and I'll figure out some corrective measures.
Because a foreign national could make headway pressing charges against US soldiers in a US court? I'm just asking. I agree that it should be a US court prosecuting them if it were US detainees, but this is an international incident. I'm unaware of precedence in a matter such as this. Maybe someone else is and will post up.

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 12:56 PM
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This is very different because U.S. military personnel should never be turned over to a foreign court for trial.
No one has been turned over.

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 01:03 PM
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Nor will they. This is just an exercise in paper-pushing and grandstanding that means nothing then.
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 01:05 PM
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Because a foreign national could make headway pressing charges against US soldiers in a US court? I'm just asking. I agree that it should be a US court prosecuting them if it were US detainees, but this is an international incident. I'm unaware of precedence in a matter such as this. Maybe someone else is and will post up.
Well, OUR President and OUR government have never settled for this shit before for the simple fact that WE guarantee a fair trial for our people... ESPECIALLY ones who were working in an official capacity at the time. All the troops accused of war crimes in Iraq weren't tried in an Iraqi court.

To even ponder the idea screams "I'm a bloody anti-American!!!"
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 01:08 PM
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Nor will they. This is just an exercise in paper-pushing and grandstanding that means nothing then.
Agreed. All that will happen is an investigation and mock trial here if anything is found towards guilty. They will never leave US soil because a foreign court found them guilty.

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 01:14 PM
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Agreed. All that will happen is an investigation and mock trial here if anything is found towards guilty. They will never leave US soil because a foreign court found them guilty.
But as the lead representative and ultimate authority figure of the United States, you MUST publically call these trials bullshit and do so without hesitation.

I don't know... I guess I wouldn't make a good Commander in Chief because I'm willing to lay it all out for each and every one of MY troops. Save the fucking job for those fags who won't.
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 01:27 PM
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
Because a foreign national could make headway pressing charges against US soldiers in a US court? I'm just asking. I agree that it should be a US court prosecuting them if it were US detainees, but this is an international incident. I'm unaware of precedence in a matter such as this. Maybe someone else is and will post up.
Gitmo is a United States Naval Base. It is sovreign United States territory. This is not an "international incident". If laws of the United States or the statutes of Uniform Code of Military Justice were violated, US courts, either military or civilian, have jurisdiction to prosecute the offense.

I believe ANYONE saying we should allow foreign courts jurisdiction over our troops is a treasonous bastard.

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 02:40 PM
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Gitmo is a United States Naval Base. It is sovreign United States territory. This is not an "international incident". If laws of the United States or the statutes of Uniform Code of Military Justice were violated, US courts, either military or civilian, have jurisdiction to prosecute the offense.

I believe ANYONE saying we should allow foreign courts jurisdiction over our troops is a treasonous bastard.
No one has said the court should have jurisdiction. The Spanish court is simply investigating apparently, and it seems we may provide them with some information. No one will be turned over to the court.

I'm not sure how international laws see it. If a crime were committed against US citizens by military personnel of another nation, I'm sure we'd try to bring them to trial as well. Basically, I think it's just a media shout fest that will come to nothing at all.

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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 03:19 PM
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Does this shit rub anyone else the wrong way?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ainees-torture




Have some political enemies? Fuck em, sending em to a foreign court for a while will keep them out of your hair...


And correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Spain kind of "gone off the deep end" according to some of our diplomats? And isn't their leader of the Socialist Party?
Israel looks so good this time of year I bet
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 03:37 PM
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I'm just waiting for the next president to bring Obama and his cronies up on charges.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 03:40 PM
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Megyn Kelly reported on this earlier this morning on America's Newsroom. Made my blood boil.

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 04:05 PM
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All of this stuff, if any of this actually happens, would set a very scary precedent.

Don't like what the previous administration did? Just get elected and skewer everyone you can with a legal shotgun.... Go ahead and assist some crazy socialists on a witch hunt across the Atlantic. You'll probably only nail a few political enemies, but the bad publicity alone is worth the lawyer's fees... especially if its coming from the taxpayers... Right?

Then what happens when a different party comes to power?
It starts all over again...

Folks, we're approaching the point of a non-functioning government that may just start spending a lot of our money and resources on a big 3 ring circus under the big top known as the capitol.

This stuff starts becoming the norm, before you know it, there may just be a problem with the peaceable transfer of power every 4 to 8 years... something that we have grown to take for granted...

Its getting scary out there folks....

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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 04:12 PM
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Obama has committed so many treasonous acts that he should have been impeached before his 100 days were up. First he released the so-called torture papers to the press, while we are still at war. That is TREASON! He should have know that anyone that wanted to hurt the USA would start yelling that they were tortured while in the USA by the Police or the Military. Never mind that the Arab King that he bowed down to like a servant was the place that most of the terrorist came from that created 9/11. Now he and Holder want to help Spain (of all places) convict US solders of torture just to get them to take some of the terrorist that Obama let out of Guantánamo.

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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 05:45 PM
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Agreed. All that will happen is an investigation and mock trial here if anything is found towards guilty. They will never leave US soil because a foreign court found them guilty.
So why would the leader of the free world cooperate with them in what you admit is a sham?


Do you agree that Obama should cooperate with them in any way? I sure don't.

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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 06:00 PM
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I'm just waiting for the next president to bring Obama and his cronies up on charges.
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 06:06 PM
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These fuckers seem to forget that they have a very short time in power in relative terms. Wonder what they'll serve time for?

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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:17 PM
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So why would the leader of the free world cooperate with them in what you admit is a sham?


Do you agree that Obama should cooperate with them in any way? I sure don't.
Yes, because the time will come when we want information back. If we don't cooperate at least on the surface, then we can expect the same down the road. Any actions by military servicemen would be under orders and the men are safe. My guess is that whatever the Spanish court comes up with will simply be dismissed by the US administration with the "we're already looking in to it," that they are already doing. I don't expect any information to go to Spain that would place the servicemen in jeopardy. Sad to say that it's a red tape political move IMO.

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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:47 PM
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All of this stuff, if any of this actually happens, would set a very scary precedent.

Don't like what the previous administration did? Just get elected and skewer everyone you can with a legal shotgun.... Go ahead and assist some crazy socialists on a witch hunt across the Atlantic. You'll probably only nail a few political enemies, but the bad publicity alone is worth the lawyer's fees... especially if its coming from the taxpayers... Right?

Then what happens when a different party comes to power?
It starts all over again...

Folks, we're approaching the point of a non-functioning government that may just start spending a lot of our money and resources on a big 3 ring circus under the big top known as the capitol.

This stuff starts becoming the norm, before you know it, there may just be a problem with the peaceable transfer of power every 4 to 8 years... something that we have grown to take for granted...

Its getting scary out there folks....
There's only one way that the majority of "We the People" will understand this. They're going to have to live through it. We've become a reactive nation. No foresight, no proactive measures taken. Bush tried that with the War on Terror and got beat down.
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:50 PM
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Yes, because the time will come when we want information back. If we don't cooperate at least on the surface, then we can expect the same down the road. Any actions by military servicemen would be under orders and the men are safe. My guess is that whatever the Spanish court comes up with will simply be dismissed by the US administration with the "we're already looking in to it," that they are already doing. I don't expect any information to go to Spain that would place the servicemen in jeopardy. Sad to say that it's a red tape political move IMO.
Compromising our service members' integrity for friendship with nations that don't even matter?!?! Are you really a fucking American?
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:51 PM
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I'm just waiting for the next president to bring Obama and his cronies up on charges.
Or someone's Remmington 700.
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
Yes, because the time will come when we want information back. If we don't cooperate at least on the surface, then we can expect the same down the road. Any actions by military servicemen would be under orders and the men are safe. My guess is that whatever the Spanish court comes up with will simply be dismissed by the US administration with the "we're already looking in to it," that they are already doing. I don't expect any information to go to Spain that would place the servicemen in jeopardy. Sad to say that it's a red tape political move IMO.
We will need info from Spain? The info provided will not place them in jeopardy? How do you come up with this stuff?

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