So you think waterboarding is bad? Russian anti-terrorist "Death Squads" laugh at you - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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So you think waterboarding is bad? Russian anti-terrorist "Death Squads" laugh at you

Obviously both sides over there are pretty savage, but DAMN. They said, "Fuck international opinion"... those guys are operating strictly based on their own best interest.


If a Beslan style event ever happens on US soil, how many average Americans do you think would line up, hammer in hand, to exact some Russian style revenge?




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6168959.ece

Quote:
From The Sunday Times
April 26, 2009

Russian death squads ‘pulverise’ Chechens

Elite commandos have broken their silence to reveal how they torture, execute and then blow captives to atoms to obliterate the grisly evidence



Thousands of Chechens disappeared after being taken away by Russian troops. One death squad targeted 'black widow' bombers such as those who seized a Moscow theatre in 2002


THE hunt for a nest of female suicide bombers in Chechnya led an elite group of Russian special forces commandos to a small village deep in the countryside. There they surrounded a modest house just before dawn to be sure of catching their quarry unawares.

When the order came to storm the single-storey property, dozens of heavily armed men in masks and camouflage uniforms - unmarked to conceal their identity - had no difficulty in overwhelming the three women inside. Their captives were driven to a military base.

The soldiers were responding to a tip-off that the eldest of the three, who was in her forties, had been indoctrinating women to sacrifice themselves in Chechnya’s ferocious war between Islamic militants and the Russians. The others captured with her were her latest recruits. One was barely 15.

“At first the older one denied everything,” said a senior special forces officer last week. “Then we roughed her up and gave her electric shocks. She provided us with good information. Once we were done with her we shot her in the head.


“We disposed of her body in a field. We placed an artillery shell between her legs and one over her chest, added several 200-gram TNT blocks and blew her to smithereens. The trick is to make sure absolutely nothing is left. No body, no proof, no problem.” The technique was known as pulverisation.


The young recruits were taken away by another unit for further interrogation before they, too, were executed.

The account is one of a series given to The Sunday Times by two special forces officers who fought the militants in Chechnya over a period of 10 years. Their testimony, the first of its kind to a foreign journalist, provides startling insights into the operation of secret Russian death squads during one of the most brutal conflicts since the second world war.

The men, decorated veterans of more than 40 tours of duty in Chechnya, said not only suspected rebels but also people close to them were systematically tracked, abducted, tortured and killed. Intelligence was often extracted by breaking their limbs with a hammer, administering electric shocks and forcing men to perform sexual acts on each other. The bodies were either buried in unmarked pits or pulverised.

Far from being the work of a few ruthless mavericks, such methods were widely used among special forces, the men said. They were backed by their superiors on the understanding that operations were to be carried out covertly and that any officers who were caught risked prosecution: the Russian government publicly condemns torture and extrajudicial killings and denies that its army committed war crimes in Chechnya.

In practice, said Andrei and Vladimir, the second officer, the Kremlin turned a blind eye. “Anyone in power who took the slightest interest in the war knows this was going on,” Andrei said. “Our only aim was to wipe out the terrorists.”

The two officers expressed pride in their contribution to the special forces’ “success” in containing the terrorist threat. But they spoke on condition they would not be named.

Andrei, who was badly wounded in the war, said he took part in the killing of at least 10 alleged female suicide bombers. In a separate incident he had a wounded female sniper tied up and ordered a tank to drive over her.

He also participated in one of the most brutal revenge sprees by Russian forces. Following the 2002 killings of two agents from the FSB security service and two soldiers from Russia’s equivalent of the SAS, the troops hunted down 200 Chechens said to be linked to the attacks.

In another operation, Andrei’s unit stumbled across dozens of wounded fighters in a cellar being used as a field hospital. Some were being tended by female relatives. “The fighters who were well enough to be interrogated were taken away. We executed the others, together with some of the women,” he recalled. “That’s the only way to deal with terrorists.”

Following an inconclusive war in Chechnya from 1994-6, Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader, launched a second war in 1999 and set the tone by vowing “to wipe out militants wherever they are, even in the outhouse”. More than 100,000 Chechens are thought to have died by the time the Kremlin declared earlier this month that it was over. Grozny, the capital, was all but flattened. Putin’s toughness earned him great popularity at home.

Acts of blood-curdling brutality were committed by both sides as the rebels tried to turn Chechnya into an Islamic state, often decapitating Russian prisoners. One Russian victim was filmed being mutilated with a chainsaw.

As the war raged, Chechen terrorists launched suicide attacks against civilians in the Moscow metro and at a rock festival. In 2002 a gang including 18 female suicide bombers seized more than 800 hostages in a Moscow theatre, 129 of whom died when the Russians pumped poisonous gas into the building on day three of the siege.

In their most savage act, the rebels took hundreds of school-children and their relatives hostage in Beslan. The three-day siege in 2004 ended with the deaths of 334 hostages, more than half of them children.

It was in this highly charged climate that the death squads were operating. Andrei recalled that his men had detained a suspect who had several videos of militants torturing Russian hostages. One showed him laughing as his comrades raped a 12-year-old girl and then shot off three of her fingers.

“We all went berserk after watching this,” said Andrei, who had begun to beat the suspect. “He fell to the ground. I ordered him to get up but he couldn’t because of his handcuffs. I ordered the cuffs off but something was wrong with the lock. I became angrier and ordered one of my sergeants to get them off no matter what.

“So he took an axe and chopped his arms off. The prisoner screamed in agony. Clearly it would have been impossible to interrogate him further so I shot him in the head.”


Andrei said he thought of his opponents not as human beings but as cockroaches to be squashed. He was unapologetic about acts of cruelty but said he did not condone excessive boasting among his men.

“I had a problem with one of my guys, who liked to collect ears which had been chopped off prisoners. He’d made a necklace and was very serious about taking this home. I did not like that kind of behaviour.”

The brutality continued after Moscow began to cede more control to Chechen special forces made up of former rebels who switched sides. Militias commanded by Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya’s pro-Kremlin president, are also accused of abducting, torturing and executing suspects.

Vladimir said he had established a death squad that hunted down, tortured and executed more than 16 alleged militants in 2005. The squad’s commander would log a bogus mission in a faraway location in his unit’s official register to provide an alibi. “We’d break in, take the suspect and vanish. We’d duct-tape and handcuff them. If there was resistance we’d gun down the suspect. If, in the firefight, someone else got killed then we’d plant a gun on the dead person.”

Vladimir and his men referred to their prey as “zaichik” - a term of endearment used by lovers that means “little hare”.

“Only a very small circle of my men took part in this work. Some of those we abducted were tougher than others but eventually everyone talks when you give them the right treatment.

“We used several methods. We’d beat them to a pulp with our bare hands and with sticks. One very effective method is ‘the grand piano’ - when one by one we’d smash the captive’s fingers with a hammer. It’s dirty and difficult work. You would not be human if you enjoyed it but it was the only way to get this filth to talk.”

A hammer would also be used to smash a captive’s kneecaps and militants would be forced to perform sexual acts. The scenes would occasionally be filmed and circulated among enemy combatants in psychological warfare.


“You have to be a certain kind of person to do this job - very strong,” Vladimir said. “Those who carried it out always volunteered. It would not be right to order one of your men to torture someone. It can be morally and psychologically very tough.”

Andrei added: “What mattered most was to carry out this work professionally, not to leave evidence which could be traced back to us. Our bosses knew about such methods but there was a clear understanding that we should cover our tracks. We knew we'd be hung out to dry if we got caught.

“We are not murderers. We are officers engaged in a war against brutal terrorists who will stop at nothing, not even at killing children. They are animals and the only way to deal with them is to destroy them. There is no room for legal niceties in a war like this. Only those who were there can truly understand. I have no regrets. My conscience is clear.”


.

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 05:05 PM
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Why didn't they just sit down and talk things over with some Starbucks?
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 05:33 PM
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Obama should be outraged

He should force Putin to release all pictures and info.
Maybe bowing to him would get it done?
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 07:35 PM
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This is no suprise to anyone who has followed Russian anti-terror efforts. I have read about this many times. It is part of the reason why I laugh when the lefties in this country get all bent out of shape over Gitmo.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 07:38 PM
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We ain't got a prayer...

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 08:32 PM
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But we do have a prayer! We just have to hope that global warming doesn't get us before it's answered!
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 09:17 PM
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Dannnggggggg that's some brutal stuff

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 09:44 PM
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But we do have a prayer! We just have to hope that global warming doesn't get us before it's answered!
LOL! I hate to be negative, but why do we have the best of the best in our service-people, yet hog-tie them so all of that training cannot be used? To me, as a civilian, it's an excercise in futility. As frustrated as I am, I can't imagine being in the armed forces...

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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 10:12 PM
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We have been very fortunate that we have not had a war on our soil in a long time. To live in a small country where the people on the other side of the hill hate you, and be in a war where people just want you dead and your family dead is not something we understand.

War is not about being civil at all, I shoot at you and you shoot at me, I shoot at you and you shoot at me. It is, I'll shoot and when you shoot at me, I going to flank you and shoot in you the arse!
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 12:30 PM
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Exactly. War is meant to be horrible and brutal and terrible. It should cause a gut reaction every time you think of it. By making it "kinder" and "gentler", you only encourage it to go on longer adn more often
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 12:36 PM
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Exactly. War is meant to be horrible and brutal and terrible. It should cause a gut reaction every time you think of it. By making it "kinder" and "gentler", you only encourage it to go on longer adn more often
And take place on your home territory.

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 12:52 PM
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And take place on your home territory.
Based on what grounds? When was the last war time attack on US soil? Don't say 9/11 because you guys said in the other threads that terrorists aren't soldiers, so it's not war. Once again you guys are making outrageous claims that we are weak and in danger under Obama. We have had the same policies for prisoners for years and haven't had an attack.

While I agree that I like the tactics here, I still disagree that the treatment should be used UNLESS we publicly state that we are going to do whatever means necessary to keep our people and our nation safe.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:02 PM
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Based on what grounds? When was the last war time attack on US soil? Don't say 9/11 because you guys said in the other threads that terrorists aren't soldiers, so it's not war. Once again you guys are making outrageous claims that we are weak and in danger under Obama. We have had the same policies for prisoners for years and haven't had an attack.

While I agree that I like the tactics here, I still disagree that the treatment should be used UNLESS we publicly state that we are going to do whatever means necessary to keep our people and our nation safe.

Did I specify the US?

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:03 PM
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Based on what grounds? When was the last war time attack on US soil?
Woah. I believe you are reading too much in to what Sean said. His response to FF was to mean also encourage a war here in the US.

If you look at the war in Chechnya you will understand that war drives people to resort to certain tactics to win, regardless of being right or wrong.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:03 PM
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Based on what grounds? When was the last war time attack on US soil? Don't say 9/11 because you guys said in the other threads that terrorists aren't soldiers, so it's not war. Once again you guys are making outrageous claims that we are weak and in danger under Obama. We have had the same policies for prisoners for years and haven't had an attack.

While I agree that I like the tactics here, I still disagree that the treatment should be used UNLESS we publicly state that we are going to do whatever means necessary to keep our people and our nation safe.
Because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't. We have the weakest administration in office in my lifetime (48 years). We are a prime target, based on the lack of knowledge and experience with the entire cabinet. Our POTUS can't speak without a teleprompter, for crissakes! The press in this country may ignore it, but our enemies won't. They are measuring us as we speak...

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:03 PM
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Keep in mind this is the Russians. To put it mildly, they have different cultural values than we do. The Chechnyans want to secede, and the war is based on the premise that the Russians want to keep the territory but kill the Muslim seperatists. There are a lot of reasons Russia doesn't want the territory to leave the republic, but mostly it has to do with the important oil pipelines and to make sure that other territories don't attempt to secede.

It's some pretty nasty fighting. I have to wonder who is supplying the arms to the Chechens.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:05 PM
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Did I specify the US?
As opposed to South Africa or some other nation? Get real. We know what you meant.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:07 PM
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It's some pretty nasty fighting. I have to wonder who is supplying the arms to the Chechens.
Probably the same place the Mexican are getting them, illegal weapons trade from US dealers.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:07 PM
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Because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't. We have the weakest administration in office in my lifetime (48 years). We are a prime target, based on the lack of knowledge and experience with the entire cabinet. Our POTUS can't speak without a teleprompter, for crissakes! The press in this country may ignore it, but our enemies won't. They are measuring us as we speak...
My point was that it has happened elsewhere, and if they know the HNIC of the US will NOT react to it, what is there to stop it in this country? Now, truth be told, I think if it started and Barry did nothing the Joint Chiefs would tell him to take a flying fuck at a galloping goose as they handled the situation which he would attempt to take credit for.

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:08 PM
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Woah. I believe you are reading too much in to what Sean said. His response to FF was to mean also encourage a war here in the US.

If you look at the war in Chechnya you will understand that war drives people to resort to certain tactics to win, regardless of being right or wrong.
I agree with you on tactics and what war drives people to do -- if they feel desperation and fear losing. If there is a true fear of losing, then people will do any and everything. If it is not present, then you typically don't see the extreme tactics.

I think you'll also find these type tactics surround more of what lies with a civil type war instead of a war between separate nations.

Again, I'm not against the tactics, just the fact that we haven't publicly said we'll go to the extremes. I do disagree that the US is set up for an attack by another nation. I don't think there is a nation in the world foolish enough to launch an attack on our soil with the intent of entering into war with us.

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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:08 PM
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As opposed to South Africa or some other nation? Get real. We know what you meant.
Oh okay, so your position is that a war could never take place on American soil.
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:10 PM
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My point was that it has happened elsewhere, and if they know the HNIC of the US will NOT react to it, what is there to stop it in this country? Now, truth be told, I think if it started and Barry did nothing the Joint Chiefs would tell him to take a flying fuck at a galloping goose as they handled the situation which he would attempt to take credit for.
So you honestly believed that if US soil were under attack that POTUS would do nothing? Seriously? I find it hard to believe that anyone would honestly believe that. It may not happen immediately (see Bush waiting a bit before attacking after 9/11), but you'd see return fire and in a big way.

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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:15 PM
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Oh okay, so your position is that a war could never take place on American soil.
Never say never, but I don't believe another nation would attack us on our own soil with the intent of starting war. I even think the odds are slim and none that we would be attacked during a war fought overseas. Again, I point out that the US has fared well and our soil has been very, very safe during times of war. We are still a mighty nation that will bring the heat if necessary. If the attack on Pearl Harbor hadn't gone down, what event would any of you point to showing precedence for an attack on US soil?

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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:23 PM
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Again, I'm not against the tactics, just the fact that we haven't publicly said we'll go to the extremes.
I don't think we have to be explicit to achieve our objectives. Announcing that the US will do what ever it takes to do the job, should be enough. I believe being completely overt diplomactically is not good for our country at all, it demoralizes our citizens, it imbarrasses our allies and emboldens our enemies. Being the most power country in the world militarily is ok. Bragging about it openly through the media, telling to world what we will do is reckless and arrogant. It only serves to have the US preceived as a bully, which is the problem with some nations. Behind close doors diplomacy, where we threaten to kick their ass is no problem.
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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:30 PM
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So you honestly believed that if US soil were under attack that POTUS would do nothing? Seriously? I find it hard to believe that anyone would honestly believe that. It may not happen immediately (see Bush waiting a bit before attacking after 9/11), but you'd see return fire and in a big way.
I wouldn't say nothing, but trying to work diplomacy channels with groups that have no value of human life doesn't help me sleep easier at night.

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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:44 PM
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I don't think we have to be explicit to achieve our objectives. Announcing that the US will do what ever it takes to do the job, should be enough. I believe being completely overt diplomactically is not good for our country at all, it demoralizes our citizens, it imbarrasses our allies and emboldens our enemies. Being the most power country in the world militarily is ok. Bragging about it openly through the media, telling to world what we will do is reckless and arrogant. It only serves to have the US preceived as a bully, which is the problem with some nations. Behind close doors diplomacy, where we threaten to kick their ass is no problem.
Agreed. That's what I meant by a public statement. I simply want us to say, "As a nation that constantly faces a threat of attack, we will do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of our nation and its people." After that, strap 'em on because we can unleash the hounds and not be hypocritical about it. That statement wouldn't reveal what we may or may not do, and it leaves the door wide open to do whatever we want. As long as we say that, then no one (i.e. media) has an avenue to attack treatment of prisoners as inhumane or unnecessary.

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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:48 PM
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I wouldn't say nothing, but trying to work diplomacy channels with groups that have no value of human life doesn't help me sleep easier at night.
Are you referring to terrorists? I don't think you'll find a history of negotiating with terrorists. If you're reffering to another nation, then I think you'll find they do place a value on human life -- sometimes it's much lower than here, but there is a value. Otherwise wars wouldn't end until a portion of society was completely eliminated. Think about it. Every crazy leader of a nation in history has always needed people to "rule." It's only the terrorists that feel they only need to attack for the simple sake of killing American (or other) people. Even Hitler had a higher purpose.

You'd see return fire, and if it were another nation, you'd see negotiating channels open quickly. If it's a terrorists group/faction of a nation, then I don't think you'd see negotiating at all.

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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 01:56 PM
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Andrei said. “Our only aim was to wipe out the terrorists.”

“We are not murderers. We are officers engaged in a war against brutal terrorists who will stop at nothing, not even at killing children. They are animals and the only way to deal with them is to destroy them. There is no room for legal niceties in a war like this. Only those who were there can truly understand. I have no regrets. My conscience is clear.”

I'd say Andrei has a clear understanding of the rules.

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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 02:06 PM
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Andrei said. “Our only aim was to wipe out the terrorists.”

“We are not murderers. We are officers engaged in a war against brutal terrorists who will stop at nothing, not even at killing children. They are animals and the only way to deal with them is to destroy them. There is no room for legal niceties in a war like this. Only those who were there can truly understand. I have no regrets. My conscience is clear.”

I'd say Andrei has a clear understanding of the rules.
...or lack thereof...

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
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