Obama coming after more of your rights. - DFWstangs Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
Aspiring Bean Counter.
 
Slowhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Howard Johnson's Earthlight Room
Posts: 12,279
Obama coming after more of your rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AP
Obama legal team wants to limit defendants' rights

By MARK SHERMAN
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration is asking the Supreme Court to overrule long-standing law that stops police from initiating questions unless a defendant's lawyer is present, another stark example of the White House seeking to limit rather than expand rights.

The administration's action - and several others - have disappointed civil rights and civil liberties groups that expected President Barack Obama to reverse the policies of his Republican predecessor, George W. Bush, after the Democrat's call for change during the 2008 campaign.

Since taking office, Obama has drawn criticism for backing the continued imprisonment of enemy combatants in Afghanistan without trial, invoking the "state secrets" privilege to avoid releasing information in lawsuits and limiting the rights of prisoners to test genetic evidence used to convict them.

The case at issue is Michigan v. Jackson, in which the Supreme Court said in 1986 that police may not initiate questioning of a defendant who has a lawyer or has asked for one, unless the attorney is present. The decision applies even to defendants who agree to talk to the authorities without their lawyers.

Anything police learn through such questioning cannot be used against the defendant at trial. The opinion was written by Justice John Paul Stevens, the only current justice who was on the court at the time.

The justices could decide as early as Friday whether they want to hear arguments on the issue as they wrestle with an ongoing case from Louisiana that involves police questioning of an indigent defendant that led to a murder confession and a death sentence.

The Justice Department, in a brief signed by Solicitor General Elena Kagan, said the 1986 decision "serves no real purpose" and offers only "meager benefits." The government said defendants who don't wish to talk to police don't have to and that officers must respect that decision. But it said there is no reason a defendant who wants to should not be able to respond to officers' questions.

At the same time, the administration acknowledges that the decision "only occasionally prevents federal prosecutors from obtaining appropriate convictions."

The administration's legal move is a reminder that Obama, who has moved from campaigning to governing, now speaks for federal prosecutors.

The administration's position assumes a level playing field, with equally savvy police and criminal suspects, lawyers on the other side of the case said. But the protection offered by the court in Stevens' 1986 opinion is especially important for vulnerable defendants, including the mentally and developmentally disabled, addicts, juveniles and the poor, the lawyers said.

"Your right to assistance of counsel can be undermined if somebody on the other side who is much more sophisticated than you are comes and talks to you and asks for information," said Sidney Rosdeitcher, a New York lawyer who advises the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University.

Stephen B. Bright, a lawyer who works with poor defendants at the Southern Center for Human Rights in Atlanta, said the administration's position "is disappointing, no question."

Bright said that poor defendants' constitutional right to a lawyer, spelled out by the high court in 1965, has been neglected in recent years. "I would hope that this administration would be doing things to shore up the right to counsel for poor people accused of crimes," said Bright, whose group joined with the Brennan Center and other rights organizations in a court filing opposing the administration's position.

Former Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson and former FBI Director William Sessions are among 19 one-time judges and prosecutors urging the court to leave the decision in place because it has been incorporated into routine police practice and establishes a rule on interrogations that is easy to follow.

Eleven states also are echoing the administration's call to overrule the 1986 case.

Justice Samuel Alito first raised the prospect of overruling the decision at arguments in January over the rights of Jesse Montejo, the Louisiana death row inmate.

Montejo's lawyer, Donald Verrilli, urged the court not to do it. Since then, Verrilli has joined the Justice Department, but played no role in the department's brief.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy.

Chains we can believe in.

Slowhand is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 12:53 PM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Good luck with that one! Like I'd say shit anyway... until they waterboard me, maybe.
Denny is offline  
post #3 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 01:17 PM
Fuzzy Flounder Fishin'
 
CoorsLightCoupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the express train to management training in hell.
Posts: 2,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Good luck with that one! Like I'd say shit anyway... until they waterboard me, maybe.
So i guess you won't be talking!

┌∩┐(-_-)┌∩┐
That's directed at you, UHHHbama
CoorsLightCoupe is offline  
 
post #4 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 04:23 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,163
Eleven states also are echoing the administration's call to overrule the 1986 case.


Really?

Some how I don't think the PEOPLE of these States are calling for less rights.
I'll just bet it's the Liberal (Communist) representatives calling to kill more of your rights. What ya bet?



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.
tazz007 is offline  
post #5 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 07:16 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Just heard today, that by next week, we will have a national health care program. They're "back-dooring" it through the house and senate, with little more than 35 hours of discussion. There's a loophole involving the "budget", that allows the senate to vote on it without confering with the republican party. It only requires a straight-out majority, which the dems easily have. Adolph Fidel Obama will be on "prime-time" TV next Wednesday night on all network stations, to discuss his many accomplishments during his first 100 days in office.

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #6 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-24-2009, 09:15 PM
NOT the Oldest Fart HERE
 
jyro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Midlothian, Tx
Posts: 4,427
dam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
Just heard today, that by next week, we will have a national health care program. They're "back-dooring" it through the house and senate, with little more than 35 hours of discussion. There's a loophole involving the "budget", that allows the senate to vote on it without confering with the republican party. It only requires a straight-out majority, which the dems easily have. Adolph Fidel Obama will be on "prime-time" TV next Wednesday night on all network stations, to discuss his many accomplishments during his first 100 days in office.

What else can they screw up?
Their going to rewrite credit law too.

Before they are done, we'll all be totally dependent on the gouv. for all, that's their plan. It's how they will try control us.
jyro is offline  
post #7 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 04:58 AM
TexasDevilDog is offline  
post #8 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-25-2009, 11:01 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
Just heard today, that by next week, we will have a national health care program. They're "back-dooring" it through the house and senate, with little more than 35 hours of discussion. There's a loophole involving the "budget", that allows the senate to vote on it without confering with the republican party. It only requires a straight-out majority, which the dems easily have. Adolph Fidel Obama will be on "prime-time" TV next Wednesday night on all network stations, to discuss his many accomplishments during his first 100 days in office.
People do not want this. It's kind of a 'not in my backyard' issue. Yeah, help the poor, but I shouldn't be forced to buy it or be jailed if I can't afford it.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #9 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 06:52 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
People do not want this. It's kind of a 'not in my backyard' issue. Yeah, help the poor, but I shouldn't be forced to buy it or be jailed if I can't afford it.
"Health-care" makes up 17% of our economy, and soon, uncle Barry and his gestapo will control it. This is friggin' scary, man. I've been around longer than most board members, and seen a lot of bad shit come out of D.C. (LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush I and II), and for the first time in my life, I'm scared.

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #10 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 08:55 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
"Health-care" makes up 17% of our economy, and soon, uncle Barry and his gestapo will control it. This is friggin' scary, man. I've been around longer than most board members, and seen a lot of bad shit come out of D.C. (LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush I and II), and for the first time in my life, I'm scared.
I'm going to have to agree with this one 100%. Although I can't say I remember LBJ.

By everything he is doing, it seems like he wants America to revolt, so he can impose martial law on the nation. And this would be a bad thing, considering the laws in place at the moment.

Summary:
With all the laws in place at the moment, if martial law was imposed, all powers of the government would transfer to F.E.M.A. Which by the was has no elected officials. And congress can not even review the situation for 6 months.

My question to you.

If , a megalomaniac was is in charge of F.E.M.A. at the time martial law is imposed.

Do you thing congress will exist 6 months later?

These laws really need to be changes. And the only way to do this is to vote out every one in congress in 2010, and demand that these presidential orders, and laws are changed.

It this does not happen......... I do fear the worst.


As far as national health care? You mean like Mexico? Where people are dieing from the flu? And our private health care has recorded none? Hummmmmm.... Yeah, I want that! Where are headed for hell in a hand bad.



All men should know Honor first, above all else!

Honor is not holding your hand out for something you did not earn.
Honor is not forcing your ideas, or belief on others.
Honor is not something given to you by way of job, or title.

Honor is learned, earned, practiced and respected by all decent men and women.

Last edited by tazz007; 04-26-2009 at 09:56 AM.
tazz007 is offline  
post #11 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 10:20 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazz007 View Post
I'm going to have to agree with this one 100%. Although I can't say I remember LBJ.

By everything he is doing, it seems like he wants America to revolt, so he can impose martial law on the nation. And this would be a bad thing, considering the laws in place at the moment.

Summary:
With all the laws in place at the moment, if martial law was imposed, all powers of the government would transfer to F.E.M.A. Which by the was has no elected officials. And congress can not even review the situation for 6 months.

My question to you.

If , a megalomaniac was is in charge of F.E.M.A. at the time martial law is imposed.

Do you thing congress will exist 6 months later?

These laws really need to be changes. And the only way to do this is to vote out every one in congress in 2010, and demand that these presidential orders, and laws are changed.

It this does not happen......... I do fear the worst.


As far as national health care? You mean like Mexico? Where people are dieing from the flu? And our private health care has recorded none? Hummmmmm.... Yeah, I want that! Where are headed for hell in a hand bad.
This swine flu issue in Mexico, is becoming our problem. Due to a lack of health care "ability", the Mexicans cannot stop it. I see widespread epidemic there, which will expose us, due to our lack of willingness to close our border...

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #12 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
This swine flu issue in Mexico, is becoming our problem. Due to a lack of health care "ability", the Mexicans cannot stop it. I see widespread epidemic there, which will expose us, due to our lack of willingness to close our border...
What made us great will also be the end of us, unfortunately. Maybe not this, persay, but something dealing with our arms being stretched out to someone.
Denny is offline  
post #13 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 08:34 PM
PAN
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under a rock
Posts: 20,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
This swine flu issue in Mexico, is becoming our problem. Due to a lack of health care "ability", the Mexicans cannot stop it. I see widespread epidemic there, which will expose us, due to our lack of willingness to close our border...
Pandemic would be the correct term sir.


Or, as the good book refers to it, a plague...
Fox466 is offline  
post #14 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 09:04 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox466 View Post
Pandemic would be the correct term sir.


Or, as the good book refers to it, a plague...
Ah, yes. The Plague...reminds me of my favorite Stephen King novel, "The Stand".

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #15 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 09:27 PM
Lifer
 
GT Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
Just heard today, that by next week, we will have a national health care program. They're "back-dooring" it through the house and senate, with little more than 35 hours of discussion. There's a loophole involving the "budget", that allows the senate to vote on it without confering with the republican party. It only requires a straight-out majority, which the dems easily have. Adolph Fidel Obama will be on "prime-time" TV next Wednesday night on all network stations, to discuss his many accomplishments during his first 100 days in office.
The term you're looking for is called "reconciliation." Congressman Paul Ryan of the House Budget Committee was on the Radio Friday. He wasn't even notified there was a meeting and heard about this crap on the news.

The DEMS want this done before Wednesday so Obama can claim in as a victory during his first 100 days... Its unreal what these idiots are doing to this country...

Here's more information...

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...hiZGIwNjliZWE=
GT Dan is offline  
post #16 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 09:30 PM
PAN
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under a rock
Posts: 20,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
Ah, yes. The Plague...reminds me of my favorite Stephen King novel, "The Stand".
Very good book, that one. Much better than The Long Walk, which was always one of my favs...
Fox466 is offline  
post #17 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-26-2009, 09:36 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT Dan View Post
The term you're looking for is called "reconciliation." Congressman Paul Ryan of the House Budget Committee was on the Radio Friday. He wasn't even notified there was a meeting and heard about this crap on the news.

The DEMS want this done before Wednesday so Obama can claim in as a victory during his first 100 days... Its unreal what these idiots are doing to this country...

Here's more information...

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...hiZGIwNjliZWE=
That's it, Dan. I heard the same gentleman. WTF? Talk about a hopeless feeling...

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #18 of 102 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 02:51 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
what?

Dreaming of my future creation....

Last edited by 331coupe; 05-04-2009 at 07:13 PM.
331coupe is offline  
post #19 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 07:14 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
we should have a universal healthcare system

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #20 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:55 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
we should have a universal healthcare system
Strong argument! Way to back it up with facts and examples. Dumbass.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #21 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:56 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
we should have a universal healthcare system
You can go to Parkland any time you like. What else do you need?

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #22 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 12:26 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Strong argument! Way to back it up with facts and examples. Dumbass.
there is no argument. what facts and examples are you talking about? stated a fact that would be better for everyone. do you feel better about yourself calling me a dumbass?? hope so. are you the guy that lives in Garland and was going to buy a s-trim from my buddy donald??

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #23 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 12:27 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
You can go to Parkland any time you like. What else do you need?
you can't be serious

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #24 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 12:37 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
you can't be serious
It's free, and it's good enough for the illegals and low-lifes', so why not? It's free health care!

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #25 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:21 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
there is no argument. what facts and examples are you talking about? stated a fact that would be better for everyone. do you feel better about yourself calling me a dumbass?? hope so. are you the guy that lives in Garland and was going to buy a s-trim from my buddy donald??
It's not a fact. Dig a little deeper and look at how the systems have failed in the major countries that pushed socialized medicine.

No, not from Garland. Nor would I buy a place there.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #26 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:27 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
"socialized" medicine, haha. yeah england, germany, canada, they are all sorts of messed up huh?? seems they got something figured out.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #27 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:32 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
"socialized" medicine, haha. yeah england, germany, canada, they are all sorts of messed up huh?? seems they got something figured out.
Oh yeah, bankrupt systems, care structures based on how much 'paying into the system' someone has left in them - ie, a 20 yr old kid will get care over a 50 yr old, regardless of severity, outrageous taxes to pay for a broken system, level after level of bureaucratic mess and severely diminished quality of life.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #28 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:32 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
these systems have not failed. taxes would actually be apportioned properly, and the care for people does not suffer. lived in germany for five years and witnessed this system at work. at this time I have friends in the netherlands, germany, and the uk.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #29 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:36 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
these systems have not failed. [b]taxes would actually be apportioned properly[b], and the care for people does not suffer. lived in germany for five years and witnessed this system at work. at this time I have friends in the netherlands, germany, and the uk.
Ahh yes, the redistribution thing again!
Good for you, I have customers in Europe that own/run businesses and talk about how they have been crippled, and their profits raped because they have to support these failed systems.

Obama's smartest choice was to convince the idiots that pay nothing that they should pay less. Once he had the idiots behind him, everything else was easy.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #30 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:37 PM
Lifer
 
MadMax404m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: carrollton
Posts: 1,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
these systems have not failed. taxes would actually be apportioned properly, and the care for people does not suffer. lived in germany for five years and witnessed this system at work. at this time I have friends in the netherlands, germany, and the uk.
Is this why people from Canada cross into our borders when they get sick? They know it will take weeks to see a professional, heck if you get diagnosed with cancer it takes months possibly years to get treated. From first hand experience talking with our patients from Canada, Germany, UK I would say these systems have failed.

71 Camaro 355sbc 6.472 @ 104mph/10.311 @ 128
Powered by: Tripp Motorsports E85 carburetor

NHRA Super Street-4040
IHRA Hot Rod-404
NHRA ET-404M
IHRA SSS-4X4M

How am I supposed to get my own T-Shirt with all those different numbers?
MadMax404m is offline  
post #31 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:54 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
more like people are going up there

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #32 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 01:57 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
i say its pretty messed up to put someone into debt to save their life

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #33 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:01 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
i say its pretty messed up to put someone into debt to save their life
VS. living poor because of oppressive tax rates?

Here is the easiest argument - Shouldn't I have the right to make the decision if I want to pay for health care or not?

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #34 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:01 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
people don't get turned away. lets go with this, we don't have to wait as long for a surgery, why?? cause there are people who can't afford treatment and just die?? or is it that money just fixes it all?? we have more doctors??? awesome, give them good salaries and lets help some people.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #35 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:03 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Canada, England, France, among other countries with "socialized medicine" programs, are starting to "disqualify" some cancer patient's because the "government" feels that the treatment is too expensive to keep them alive. So now, those governments' politicians get to choose who lives and dies. You like that? Drug companies in those countries do not have the funds to continue research and development on cures for illnesses, because they can't make money on prescriptions due to those governments dictating prices. You like that? Typical cancers (breast, colon, stomach, etc.) have up to a 30% higher mortality rate in a "socialized" program, due to the waiting period to see a doctor, and the fact that they don't have the drugs available to them. You like that? Man, this is easy...

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #36 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:03 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
living poor??? oppressive tax rates??? no we just live poor anyway because our controlled monetary politics

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #37 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:06 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
VS. living poor because of oppressive tax rates?

Here is the easiest argument - Shouldn't I have the right to make the decision if I want to pay for health care or not?
I see your view on the choice thing tho.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #38 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:07 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
people don't get turned away. lets go with this, we don't have to wait as long for a surgery, why?? cause there are people who can't afford treatment and just die?? or is it that money just fixes it all?? we have more doctors??? awesome, give them good salaries and lets help some people.
Son...you're a dumbass, but I'm guessing you already know that. Canada considers gall bladder surgery, an "elective" surgery, or in other words, non life-threatening. Hernia's are considered the same. Speaking from experience, I almost died from a ruptured hernia, and had it not been for a quick response from a surgeon at Methodist Hospital, it could have been dicey for me.

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #39 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:10 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
so you are telling me that had you been in canada they would have just let you die?? doubt it.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #40 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:13 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
living poor??? oppressive tax rates??? no we just live poor anyway because our controlled monetary politics
I do well and don't live poor, but I also haven't been saddled with the cost of medical care for those unwilling to work or pay for their own insurance. That could change.

And for me it comes down to choice. I should be required by law to pay $500 a month for government health care or face jail time/fines.

It is yet another tax.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #41 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:21 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
so you are telling me that had you been in canada they would have just let you die?? doubt it.
The point is, they may not have known to do anything about it, or had a surgeon right there, and ready to go. Please wake up! I hope you're a very young person, because you are really naive...

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #42 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 02:42 PM
Num say'n? (tm)
 
JP135's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
these systems have not failed. taxes would actually be apportioned properly, and the care for people does not suffer. lived in germany for five years and witnessed this system at work. at this time I have friends in the netherlands, germany, and the uk.
I have friends in the UK and Canada as well. The one in the UK says the BEST part of his executive benefit package is private health care. Not the money. Not the perks. But being able to pick his own doctor and be reasonably sure he will get appropriate medical care.

The ones in Canada come here and stand in line at our county hospitals and claim they are US citizens who lost their identification, so they can get in to see the doctor sometime within the first month of getting sick.

I'm concur Vertnut's assessment of you.

DFWMustangs.net
JP135 is offline  
post #43 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 08:57 PM
you m-m-m-m-make me happy
 
stinginstang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
more like people are going up there
no - Americans are NOT going to Canada for healthcare.
stinginstang is offline  
post #44 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 01:14 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
many willing, not so many jobs. kind of a limited chance there. so fuck the people that get left behind?? not much compassion amongst many here. pass your judgement to think someone is a dumbass by expressing a view and maybe trying to learn and gain more info. i don't just read one script of propaganda and form an opinion. bunch of hypocritical, holier than thou types. but I guess you got it all figured out. texts on a forum should be a stimulus for new opinions and views. hold the insults, truly not needed unless this is the only way you feel you get your point across.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #45 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 05:26 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
many willing, not so many jobs. kind of a limited chance there. so fuck the people that get left behind?? not much compassion amongst many here. pass your judgement to think someone is a dumbass by expressing a view and maybe trying to learn and gain more info. i don't just read one script of propaganda and form an opinion. bunch of hypocritical, holier than thou types. but I guess you got it all figured out. texts on a forum should be a stimulus for new opinions and views. hold the insults, truly not needed unless this is the only way you feel you get your point across.
Hypocritical? Because you got pummeled on about every topic you threw out there? One thing about this bunch: whichever side you're on, you'd better have on your big-girl panties. Am I always right? No...but I like to think I am.

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #46 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 05:59 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
more like people are going up there
People leave the UK and Canada to get "better treatment" in places like India. No one goes to Canada for care.
Denny is offline  
post #47 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 08:17 AM
LUCIFER
 
bjtheman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aubrey
Posts: 5,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
so you are telling me that had you been in canada they would have just let you die?? doubt it.
Actually the chances of that are high, Canada's system can't afford enough adequate doctors, surgeons, etc for their population. Even for life threating illness you have to be put on a list to be seen, which can take from days to weeks! This includes procedures as well.
And most definitely people from the US don't to Canda for better healthcare.

You've been watching too many Michael Moore Movies.

2004 GT Conv't

MODS:
FLOWS, 3.73'S, BASSANI O/R X-PIPE, ACCUFAB 75MM TB, PLENUM, AND VORTECH V-3 SUPERCHARGED


bjtheman1 is offline  
post #48 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 10:27 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut View Post
Hypocritical? Because you got pummeled on about every topic you threw out there? One thing about this bunch: whichever side you're on, you'd better have on your big-girl panties. Am I always right? No...but I like to think I am.
pummeled? no, just received opinions. always got my big girl she-ra panties on, just sayin insults aren't needed, truly irrelevant.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #49 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 10:30 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: fort worth
Posts: 1,102
ok, lets leave the canada and uk thing behind. so what can we do to improve our terrible health insurance and care cost?? we have the resources to provide care for everyone, just greeedy people see to much profit. I will say it is terrible how some get left behind and it wasn't their bad decisions that got them there.

Dreaming of my future creation....
331coupe is offline  
post #50 of 102 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 10:32 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by 331coupe View Post
ok, lets leave the canada and uk thing behind. so what can we do to improve our terrible health insurance and care cost?? we have the resources to provide care for everyone, just greeedy people see to much profit. I will say it is terrible how some get left behind and it wasn't their bad decisions that got them there.
What about pollution caps? They're the answer to everything!
Denny is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
obama rights scotus

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome