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post #1 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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Anybody that say's "waterboarding" doesn't give intel...

...feel free to run their nose in this:

Quote:
CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief

(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)

This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,”
says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.

“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”

A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=46949

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post #2 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 02:03 PM
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Amen!!! No telling how many lives were saved. Need more info? I don't care if they cram a firehose down his worthless throat. Do what it takes to protect the USA. Repeat as neccesary.

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post #3 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 02:22 PM
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post #4 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 02:33 PM
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I think we should be able to apply physical and mental stress to acquire information from known terrorists.

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post #5 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 02:42 PM
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I saw Dick Cheney being interviewed by Sean Hannity and Cheney said he has formally asked for the documents about these interrogations also be released by Obama since he chose to release some of the derogatory memos and none of the positive ones. This will get ugly if Obama decides to try and prosecute people who helped us avoid more attacks the last 7 years.

I say every one of them is a hero not a criminal and anyone who tries to prosecute those who protected us are the criminals.

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post #6 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 03:09 PM
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you got to do what you got to do. sometimes you have to do the wrong thing to save lives. but dont try and justify wrong actions, its still against the law, it still violates a number of treaties.

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post #7 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
you got to do what you got to do. sometimes you have to do the wrong thing to save lives. but dont try and justify wrong actions, its still against the law, it still violates a number of treaties.

What treaties does it violate?
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post #8 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 03:30 PM
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What treaties does it violate?
three treaties come to mind:
1. Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, US ratified in 1955

2. International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, US ratified in 1992

3 United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, US ratified in 1994

water boarding also violates several federal laws if committed by a US citizen inside or outside the country.

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post #9 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 03:33 PM
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What treaties does it violate?
The Bleeding Heart Treaty.



Come on Al, you're an educated man. How'd you forget about that one?
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post #10 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
three treaties come to mind:
1. Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, US ratified in 1955

2. International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, US ratified in 1992

3 United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, US ratified in 1994

water boarding also violates several federal laws if committed by a US citizen inside or outside the country.
Someone from a terrorist group is not a prisoner of war and they do not have civil and political rights since they are not acting in uniform for a country that has also ratified the same treaty. The definition I have seen is a citizen of a country who we have declared war against. So far the Taliban and Al Queada are the only entities we have decided to attack, so no person from those groups qualify IMO.

I also do not think waterboarding is torture even though John McCain, a true American hero, disagrees with me. I think any person who has information that could save lives should be tretaed any way necessary that doesn not actually cause injury or death, and even then some injury is okay IMO.

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post #11 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:00 PM
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Just out of curiosity, why don't you think waterboarding is torture?
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post #12 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonball996 View Post
three treaties come to mind:
1. Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, US ratified in 1955

2. International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, US ratified in 1992

3 United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, US ratified in 1994

water boarding also violates several federal laws if committed by a US citizen inside or outside the country.
Those are interesting to know. I don't follow UN stuff all that much. Although as Paladin pointed out, no terrorist is going to be considered a POW under item #1. Although there is a statement in there about "if there is any doubt about whether someone is classified as a POW, then they must be treated as a POW". The sympathizers love to cling to that statement as meaning it makes the agreement apply to terrorists but it simply doesn't.

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post #13 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:25 PM
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even if the Geneva Convention does not apply, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, apply to any and all humans.

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post #14 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:34 PM
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But what if you don't consider terrorists/pirates "human"?
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post #15 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:37 PM
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even if the Geneva Convention does not apply, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, apply to any and all humans.
I'm sorry we can't be nice to the terrorists.

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post #16 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:37 PM
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even if the Geneva Convention does not apply, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, apply to any and all humans.
I don't consider Al Qaeda members to be humans so in my mind we are good to go.

EDIT: Exlude beat me to it. lol
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post #17 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:52 PM
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if interrogating ONE terrorist to save hundreds,thousands, or milliions of lives is the price to pay then make it a 2 for 1 special. do you really think terrorist obey ANY treaty.

like pirates,rapist and several others, the only good terrorist is a dead one.

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post #18 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:56 PM
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Just out of curiosity, why don't you think waterboarding is torture?
Because within a few seconds of the waterboarding ending, you would probably have little if any ill effects because it was applied. It is similar to a Taser. It hurts like hell while it is happening, but once it ends you are back to normal very quickly.

My idea of torture would be inflicting pain that results in injury, pretty much like what happened to our Vietnam POW's every day. This is just my opinion, not some statement as an expert on torture btw.

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post #19 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 04:56 PM
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But what if you don't consider terrorists/pirates "human"?
Nice!

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post #20 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 05:01 PM
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Because within a few seconds of the waterboarding ending, you would probably have little if any ill effects because it was applied. It is similar to a Taser. It hurts like hell while it is happening, but once it ends you are back to normal very quickly.

My idea of torture would be inflicting pain that results in injury, pretty much like what happened to our Vietnam POW's every day. This is just my opinion, not some statement as an expert on torture btw.
The concern more than anything is that some of these people are innocent. I suppose that is possible. I just don't really care to be honest. I'm sorry it happens but when it comes to the foreign policy arena all bets are off.
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post #21 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 05:28 PM
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The concern more than anything is that some of these people are innocent. I suppose that is possible. I just don't really care to be honest. I'm sorry it happens but when it comes to the foreign policy arena all bets are off.
I share that concern also. I am still for the death penalty but want it used only on people who are guilty. I doubt the death penalty will continue to be carried out once it is proven that an innocent person has been excecuted. If that happens, I bet the first may come from Dallas County!

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post #22 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 06:52 PM
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I doubt the death penalty will continue to be carried out once it is proven that an innocent person has been excecuted. If that happens, I bet the first may come from Dallas County!
You're kidding, right? The US currently makes an oopsie every 33 tries (on average). I cant remember the name of one of the guys, but he was on the electric chair, caught on fire, died, and then someone confessed.

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post #23 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 07:14 PM
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if you dont l want to respect the treaties you signed then why stay committed to them, why is no one asking to back out of them so that we can do what is necessary?

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post #24 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 07:29 PM
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You're kidding, right? The US currently makes an oopsie every 33 tries (on average). I cant remember the name of one of the guys, but he was on the electric chair, caught on fire, died, and then someone confessed.
Nope, I have never heard of a case where someone has been proven to be wrongfully executed. Why have the anti-death penalty people not used the example you give?

BTW, you know a confession is not, in and of itslef, enough to execute someone so it would also not be enough to say the guy who was exceuted was not still guilty, You know this, right?

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post #25 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 07:30 PM
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if you dont l want to respect the treaties you signed then why stay committed to them, why is no one asking to back out of them so that we can do what is necessary?
I think we are saying that we are not violating the treaties. Did you read the responses?

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post #26 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 07:34 PM
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You're kidding, right? The US currently makes an oopsie every 33 tries (on average). I cant remember the name of one of the guys, but he was on the electric chair, caught on fire, died, and then someone confessed.
I've never, ever heard that. Those numbers must come from Obama's treasury secretary...

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post #27 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 07:40 PM
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I've never, ever heard that. Those numbers must come from Obama's treasury secretary...
Now that I re-read it the wording sounds like he or the person who he got it from is an anti-death penalty idiot liberal. "We make oopsie's".

Nice catch, I missed it.

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post #28 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 07:48 PM
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Now that I re-read it the wording sounds like he or the person who he got it from is an anti-death penalty idiot liberal. "We make oopsie's".

Nice catch, I missed it.
You and I both know that if that was proven they would resort to paddling those guys.
Also, along those lines, if DNA free's a man due to proven innocence, then why can't DNA prove certain guilt and let us proceed with the lethal injection just as expediently?

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post #29 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 08:08 PM
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Lol at losing credibility because it isn't what you want to hear.

Do you really think our legal system is efficient enough to get it right every time?

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post #30 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 08:18 PM
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Lol at losing credibility because it isn't what you want to hear.

Do you really think our legal system is efficient enough to get it right every time?
LOL at you losing credibility by not PROVING it. Please , man, move along with that...

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post #31 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 08:25 PM
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LOL at you losing credibility by not PROVING it. Please , man, move along with that...
If I did, would you change your mind? I'm guessing nothing I say could ever change your mind, and vice-versa. I'll gladly look up the stats or criminal journal articles if you really want to know, but I'm not into e-arguing over subjects that people have already made their minds up on.

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post #32 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 08:26 PM
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i think im going to be water boarded at home.i want to see what its like.

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post #33 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 08:31 PM
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If I did, would you change your mind? I'm guessing nothing I say could ever change your mind, and vice-versa. I'll gladly look up the stats or criminal journal articles if you really want to know, but I'm not into e-arguing over subjects that people have already made their minds up on.
It can either be proven or not. There's no "gray" here...it's black and white. I need to know the names, dates, and locations of these "oopsies" that we "currently" make. At that point, I don't know how I could deny it.

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post #34 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-21-2009, 08:33 PM
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i think im going to be water boarded at home.i want to see what its like.
I've seen some video's of it, and it doesn't look fun. If someone had a fear of drowning, it would be even less fun.

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post #35 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 12:56 AM
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You're kidding, right? The US currently makes an oopsie every 33 tries (on average). I cant remember the name of one of the guys, but he was on the electric chair, caught on fire, died, and then someone confessed.
Produce the name of one person that was exonerated after they were executed. I bet you cant... or wont...

As for the terrorists, who gives a shit about their rights. I find it funny how quickly the people in this country have forgotten about September 11, 2001. I used to get up every morning and look at those towers... I had friends that worked and died in those buildings...

Remind me again, how many people died in NYC? the Pentagon? Flight 93? What about Kick Berg and the other people that have been beheaded?

You can not apply law and order to people who have no regard for the law...
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post #36 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 05:01 AM
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Here is another good article about this subject. Obama's top intelligence guy acknowledged the value in info obtained under these conditions. It gave them addition insight into their network. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...nterrogations/


However, with that being said they are considering a commission to prosecute former officials and have banned all forms of harsh interrogation under Obama's watch. I guess they think by changing the language of war and pacifism makes everything sunshine and roses. And this absurd mindset that the U.S. and it's former policies were so deeply flawed, which requires everyone to be an apologist. Send Clinton to Mexico and apologize on the behalf of the U.S. for border violence. Obama shaking hands with Chavez.

The news is replete with this and it's getting harder and harder to read.

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it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #37 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 08:21 AM
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Is waterboarding torture?

Let's analyze what the word "torture" is first.

1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

Now, when was the last time that you heard anyone in pain from waterboarding?
How about extreme anguish?
Severe pain or anguish?

How many people have died from waterboarding?
How many people have come away from waterboarding with their quality of life compromised?

It'll scare the shit out of you, but it's not torture.
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post #38 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 08:31 AM
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It's not pain, persay, but it's definitely severe anguish. Thus why it works.
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post #39 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 08:33 AM
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It's not pain, persay, but it's definitely severe anguish. Thus why it works.
Severe? No, that was like the look on your face when you got your tat. LOL

This "anguish" is momentary.
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post #40 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:11 AM
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Is waterboarding torture?
Hmmm, let's see. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

'Perfect storm of ignorance'
The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

So you're saying it's not torture but we prosecute it as war crimes? This is a good read. You guys should check it out.

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Last edited by Juiceweezl; 04-22-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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post #41 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:18 AM
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...feel free to run their nose in this:
My only question is that if it's so effective, why did it take 266 times on two prisoners? That's not a very high success rate to me, and would lead me to question the validity of what is said.

Another quote from the article I posted: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

The "they" referred to are the top officials involved (CIA, White House aides, etc.) in pushing the acceptance of the advanced techniques. SERE would be the Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape military training program created to give American pilots and soliders a sample of torture methods used by Communists in the Korean War.

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation,

Oh, and to whomever said we're not at war, so they're not POW's, is it not a "war against terrorism?" Are we just having a very expensive "conflict" with Al Qaeda?

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post #42 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:28 AM
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One last comment

...to show that there are many people to blame for this on BOTH sides. Apparently the proposal should have been brought before Congress but only went in front of the Gang of Four. Here are the comments from 3 of them. That joker-faced Pelosi is an idiot with her reply. It sure seems like the earlier article quote was true...it was a perfect storm of ignorance.

One more check
There was one more check on intelligence programs, one designed in the 1970s to make sure independent observers kept an eye on spy agencies: Congress. The Senate and House Intelligence Committees had been created in the mid-1970s to prevent any repeat of the C.I.A. abuses unearthed by the Senate’s Church Committee.

As was common with the most secret programs, the C.I.A. chose not to brief the entire committees about the interrogation methods but only the so-called Gang of Four — the top Republican and Democrat on the Senate and House committees. The rest of the committee members would be fully briefed only in 2006.

The 2002 Gang of Four briefings left a hodgepodge of contradictory recollections that, to some Congressional staff members, reveal a dysfunctional oversight system. Without full staff support, few lawmakers are equipped to make difficult legal and policy judgments about secret programs, critics say.

Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who in 2002 was the ranking Democrat on the House committee, has said in public statements that she recalls being briefed on the methods, including waterboarding. She insists, however, that the lawmakers were told only that the C.I.A. believed the methods were legal — not that they were going to be used.

By contrast, the ranking Republican on the House committee at the time, Porter J. Goss of Florida, who later served as C.I.A. director, recalls a clear message that the methods would be used.

"We were briefed, and we certainly understood what C.I.A. was doing," Mr. Goss said in an interview. "Not only was there no objection, there was actually concern about whether the agency was doing enough."

Senator Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, who was committee chairman in 2002, said in an interview that he did not recall ever being briefed on the methods, though government officials with access to records say all four committee leaders received multiple briefings.

Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the senior Republican on the committee, declined to discuss the briefings.

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post #43 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
My only question is that if it's so effective, why did it take 266 times on two prisoners? That's not a very high success rate to me, and would lead me to question the validity of what is said.

Another quote from the article I posted: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

The "they" referred to are the top officials involved (CIA, White House aides, etc.) in pushing the acceptance of the advanced techniques. SERE would be the Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape military training program created to give American pilots and soliders a sample of torture methods used by Communists in the Korean War.

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation,

Oh, and to whomever said we're not at war, so they're not POW's, is it not a "war against terrorism?" Are we just having a very expensive "conflict" with Al Qaeda?
They aren't POWs by the Geneva agreement. You should try reading it.

On the same note, if it is so horrible why would it take 266 times to get some information out of someone?
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post #44 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
My only question is that if it's so effective, why did it take 266 times on two prisoners? That's not a very high success rate to me, and would lead me to question the validity of what is said.
What do you propose to get it done in 1 time?

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post #45 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:36 AM
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They aren't POWs by the Geneva agreement. You should try reading it.

On the same note, if it is so horrible why would it take 266 times to get some information out of someone?
So you're saying the act itself isn't a crime. It's the fact that you do it against a soldier that makes it a crime??? Go put your hand in your pocket and rob a bank. Then tell the court, "I didn't really have a gun, so it's not a crime." See how that works out. I'm not surprised at this coming from you. The act is torture and criminal period.

I'll cut you some slack and guess that you forgot to delete that last part or are you agreeing with me?

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post #46 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:40 AM
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What do you propose to get it done in 1 time?
See my posts in the other thread. I'm not opposed to torture at all -- IF we publicly say that we will go to all means necessary to ensure the safety of our nation and our people. That being said, once we announce that, we cannot expect any US citizens or soldiers to ever be treated with decency if captured. Currently, we want to say it's okay to water board someone here but condemn other nations that torture our citizens and soldiers. That's hypocritical IMO.

Oh, and like I said earlier, I've always thought .22 LR's to the knee caps would be quite convincing. You can always move around to the elbow, the femur, etc. It would be exceedingly painful yet not deadly.

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post #47 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:44 AM
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So you're saying the act itself isn't a crime. It's the fact that you do it against a soldier that makes it a crime??? Go put your hand in your pocket and rob a bank. Then tell the court, "I didn't really have a gun, so it's not a crime." See how that works out. I'm not surprised at this coming from you. The act is torture and criminal period.

I'll cut you some slack and guess that you forgot to delete that last part or are you agreeing with me?
I didn't say anything about crimes or soldiers or any of that shit. All I said was guerilla fighters aren't prisoners of war and if you read the agreements you will see that.

I'm saying it must not be all that bad if some dude can take it 266 times so keep right on doing it! If that is what you are saying then I guess we agree.
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post #48 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:52 AM
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Hmmm, let's see. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30338039

'Perfect storm of ignorance'
The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

So you're saying it's not torture but we prosecute it as war crimes? This is a good read. You guys should check it out.
Different circumstances by different people protected under different laws. It is more of a procedural violation, if anything (in that case).
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post #49 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 09:59 AM
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I didn't say anything about crimes or soldiers or any of that shit. All I said was guerilla fighters aren't prisoners of war and if you read the agreements you will see that.

I'm saying it must not be all that bad if some dude can take it 266 times so keep right on doing it! If that is what you are saying then I guess we agree.
I said if it took 266 times to get the info, how effective is it? That seems like an excessive number of times when they're pushed for time to get information. Oh, and whether the guys belong to a army or not, the act itself is torturous and viewed as criminal. If you don't think so, go grab someone and waterboard them in public and see what happens. Then claim that he wasn't a solider or in uniform as a defense.

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post #50 of 93 (permalink) Old 04-22-2009, 10:01 AM
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Severe? No, that was like the look on your face when you got your tat. LOL

This "anguish" is momentary.

Hahaha, damn you.
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