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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-04-2009, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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How does a broke nation survive?

So america is broke, has been for quite some time, the national debt is proof of that. We are living on hot checks and borrowed time. The debt is at levels that unless this country starts making a shit ton of money somehow, other than printing it, we can never pay back. China keeps loaning us money knowing we cant pay it back since the world buys its goods from them instead of us.

If what ive read is true, those loans to china have been backed up with american soil through Eminent Domain. Meanwhile the US continues to act like world police, fighting wars we dont need to or affford to and basically just acting like nothing is wrong.

We are the welfare child of the world now. I see it like this, say you are a conservative guy, you work and save money and therefor have some savings. You have an old friend that lives it up, parties all the time and blows credit like crazy and drives a Mercedes yet he has to borrow money from you to pay the rent. He has never paid you back a dollar and keeps borrowing. At what point do you say enough is enough and demand repayment? Do you honestly think the guy will get to keep his mercedes?

Seems all this talk is about how to get things back to "normal" but things havent been normal in 20 years. Its almost like capitalsm and american free trade have failed and was used against us. You cant say its been a gleaming success when we have been writing hot checks for decades now.

I feel like the country is in a downward spiral that got started along time ago and we are finally feeling the effects of it. I listen to all the excuses and BS but one thing really seems to be the real problem.

I believe it was Bush that said it was the business tax and that ireland has lower taxes.....the jobs arent going to ireland smart guy. They are going to countries that have dirt cheap labor and no rules or regulations. Before you start blaming the regualtions however, realize they are there for a reason. Look at the products coming out of china, most recently the drywall with sulfur in it, before that it was lead paint, and the list goes on and on.

The real reason is we stopped being a productive nation, IE we gave away the jobs. Those jobs have now enabled china to become the worlds next superpower and they are rich, they are buying our own country out from under us with our own damn money! The only way i see america to save itself now is to get the jobs back, that might seriously lead to war with china now but i dont see any other way.

What pisses me off is the fact that when the chinese entered the american market and american companies were ether having to outsource their jobs or go out of business, why didnt the government see the danger this would be to the american way of life and do something? Something like, you MUST keep 75% of your labor in the US or you get NO help from the government and no tax breaks at all. They keep giving tax breaks to these companies thinking they are gonna invest in america, instead they shut down US plants ASAP and build new ones in china.

Some of you guys are blaming the democrats for all this but BOTH sides have not done a damn thing to prevent this. I blame the entire government, we needed to do something if we were to keep the standard of living up as it has been for so long and preserve america as its own country.

Ive been doing alot of thinking on this and this is just some of my thoughts on this, i hope to god im dead wrong but it really seems like this country is on a one way road to nowhere. So what are you guys thoughts on this? How long can america continue to blow money and survive off of loans?

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-04-2009, 10:40 PM
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Meanwhile the US continues to act like world police, fighting wars we dont need to or affford to and basically just acting like nothing is wrong.
This is a big misconception that so many have. First, we don't ACT like the world's police. We ARE the world's police. There are very few conflicy=ts that we don't need to intervene. If it wasn't for our interventions, the world would turn to total chaos within a year's time. Not only do we hold "stupid motherfuckers" in check, but think of all the shitbags that don't do anything out of fear of repercussions. Our problem is (and it's a HUGE problem) that we basically let other pathetic countries utilize this very expensive resource basically free! Not only that, but we are also in the business of forgiving debt. It's almost comical since we are in debt just as bad as the next guy.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-04-2009, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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I know denny, even when the UN does do something, why does it always have to be the americans that do the dying? I hear all the time about how much better the french or german military is. I say let them do the fighting, instead they send like a pathetic number of troops and they are usually non combat troops, medics and engineers usually.

Is it any wonder other countries hate the US so much when they see american planes and tanks doing the vast amount of damage? The germans are seen in a MUCH higher standard than the "evil" americans despite the fact they started BOTH world wars! It is stupid for us to feel we have to fight every damn war. I say let the brits, french, and germans do their part in a big way. I say next time we dont send a single combat troop, between all those countries they have plenty of manpower without the US. Having to maintain such a massive military is only adding to our debt alone when NATO is supposed to spread the duty to defend to our allies.

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 12:46 AM
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I think it was bin laden that had plans to wipe out the US financially rather than using military force. With the US now being a debtor nation our hands are slowly but surely being tied, and bin ladens plan seems to be working. Our options are narrowing. IMO we're on the road to cede our nation to the people that have loaned us money. Our CIC is on board with plans such as these, being the socialist/pussy/pacifist that he is. Even the leader of GE has come out with a statement to the effect that we should have kept our manufacturing base instead of offshoring it and pursuing financial services.

The US makes very little product anymore, and the financial services that we were trying to build an entire economy upon has failed. It's just paper.

I think we are experiencing an epic change in the US, a change that is going to put us at the mercy of the communist/godless people that we owe money to.

The US has been foolish/greedy for many years, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 01:38 AM
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Everyone knows the US will do anything to keep the stability of the world in a "decent" condition. This is why Bin Laden's plan will succeed. It's like the cop that throws down his weapon so that a gunman will let the hostage go... remember that story about the Jewish carpenter doing something similar? Granted, His mission was a success, but you get the idea. Another one is when Superman's enemy knows that Superman is far more powerful, so he goes to his weakness (the people of Metropolis).
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 07:28 AM
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It's Obamas fault, or it started with Clinton, or.............
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 11:53 AM
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Regardless of who's to blame or our role in the world as a policing force , we are still living on borrowed time . I am not really sure whats going to happen when the credit line dries up for America . One thing I can say is , things are changing and fast . Unfortunately , its not in our favor .
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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wow i was hoping you guys had a perspective i hadnt thought of. I didnt want to believe that the "end" was so close to being reality. Maybe china will become a free country and when that happens they will get hit with inflation, this would allow alot of jobs to come back to the US at some point? I dont know but this is issue number one for the country, it isnt the terrorists or iraq or afgan war. We need a do able long term solution.

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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http://www.rense.com/general85/ChinaSpeaks.pdf

This is nice, it talks about china using chemical warfare to "cleanse" america of us so they can take our land. It talks alot about how china needs more land and that the US is perfect for them. This shit is scary and crazy!

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-05-2009, 11:43 PM
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http://www.rense.com/general85/ChinaSpeaks.pdf

This is nice, it talks about china using chemical warfare to "cleanse" america of us so they can take our land. It talks alot about how china needs more land and that the US is perfect for them. This shit is scary and crazy!
How do you think they're going to eventually ask for our debts to be repaid? They sure as hell don't want our currency. To a people like that, soil is gold!


LMFAO!!!

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Good 'ol Department of Defense networks!
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 11:17 AM
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Good 'ol Department of Defense networks!


The following is the actual text of a speech delivered in December, 2005 by Comrade Chi Haotian –the Vice-Chairman of China’s Military Commision to top officers and generals. Keep in mind that China has for many years advocated deceiptful and covert warfare against its enemies. This is their Modus Operandi. There should be little question that a “Bird Flu” Pandemic would deeply excite them. (Don’t forget how they have poisoned thousands of American pets and knowingly placed lead paints on toddler’s toys.)


“Comrades, I’m very excited today, because the large-scale online survey sina.com that was done for us showed that our next generation is quite promising and our Party’s cause will be carried on. In answering the question, “Will you shoot at women, children and prisoners of war,” more than 80 per cent of the respondents answered in the affirmative, exceeding by far our expectations. Today I’d like to focus on why we asked sina.com to conduct this online survey among our people. My speech today is a sequel to my speech last time, during
which I started with a discussion of the issue of the three islands [Taiwan, Diaoyu Islands and the Spratley Islands --- Ott] and mentioned that 20 years of the idyllic theme of ‘peace and development’ had cometo an end, and concluded that modernization under the saber is the only option for China’s next phase. I also mentioned we have a vital stake overseas.
The central issue of this survey appears to be whether one should shoot at women, children and prisoners of war, but its real significance goes far beyond that. Ostensibly, our intention is mainly to figure out what the Chinese people’s attitude towards war is: If these future soldiers do not hesitate to kill even noncombatants, they’ll naturally be doubly ready and ruthless in killing combatants. Therefore, the responses to the survey questions may reflect the general attitude people have towards war……..We wanted to know: If China’s global development will necessitate massive deaths in enemy countries, will our people endorse that scenario? Will they be for or against it?
The fact is, our ‘development’ refers to the great revitalization of the Chinese nation, which, of course, is not limited to the land we have now but also includes the whole world. As everybody knows, according to the views propagated by the Western scholars, humanity as a whole originated from one single mother in Africa. Therefore no race can claim racial superiority. However, according to the research conducted by most Chinese scholars, the Chinese are different from other races on earth. We did not originate in Africa. Instead, we originated independently in the land of China. Therefore, we can rightfully assert that we are the product of cultural roots of more than a million years, civilization and progress of more than ten thousand years, an ancient nation of five thousand years, and a single Chinese entity of two thousand years. This is the Chinese nation that calls itself ‘descendants of Yan and Huang.’
During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. We all know that on account of our national superiority, during the thriving and prosperous Tang Dynasty our civilization was at the peak of the world. We were the centre of the world civilization, and no other civilization in the world was comparable to ours. Later on, because of our complacency, narrow-mindedness, and the self-enclosure
of our own country, we were surpassed by Western civilization, and the centre of the world shifted to the West.
In reviewing history, one may ask: Will the centre of the world civilization shift back to China? Actually, Comrade Liu Huaqing made similar points in early 1980’s Based on an historical analysis, he pointed out that the centre of world civilization is shifting. It shifted from the East to Western Europe and later to the United States; now it is shifting back to the East. Therefore, if we refer to the 19th Century as the British Century and the 20th century as the American Century, then the 21st Century will be the Chinese Century!! (Wild applause fills the
auditorium.)
Our Chinese people are wiser than the Germans because, fundamentally, our race is superior to theirs. As a result, we have a longer history, more people, and larger land area. On this basis, our ancestors left us with the two most essential heritages, which are atheism and great unity. It was Confucius, the founder of our Chinese culture, who gave us these heritages. These two heritages determined that we have a stronger ability to survive than the West. That is why the Chinese race has been able to prosper for so long. We are destined ‘not to be buried by either heaven or earth’ no matter how severe the natural, man-made, and national disasters. This is our advantage. Take response to war as an example. The reason that the United States remains today is that it has never seen war on its mainland. Once its enemies aim at the mainland, the enemies would have already reached Washington before its congress finishes debating and authorizes the president to declare war. But for us, we don’t waste time on these trivial things. Maybe you have now come to understand why we recently decided to further promulgate atheism. If we let theology from the West into China and empty us from the inside, if we let all Chinese people listen to God and follow God, who will obediently listen to us and follow us? If the common people don’t believe Comrade Hu Jintao is a qualified leader, begin to question his authority, and want to monitor him, if the religious followers in our society question why we are leading
God in churches, can our Party continue to rule China??
The first pressing issue facing us is living space. This is the biggest focus of the revitalization of the Chinese race. In my last speech, I said that the fight over basic living resources (including land and ocean) is the source of the vast majority of wars in history. This may change in the information age, but not fundamentally. Our per capita resources are much less than those of Germany’s back then. In addition, economic development in the last twenty-plus years had a negative impact, and climates are rapidly changing for the worse. Our resources are in very short supply. The environment is severely polluted, especially that of soil, water, and air. Not only our ability to sustain and develop our race, but even its survival is gravely threatened, to a degree much greater than faced Germany back then Anybody who has been to Western countries knows that their living space is much better than ours. They have forests alongside the highways, while we hardly have any trees by our streets. Their sky is often blue with white clouds, while our sky is covered with a layer of dark haze. Their tap water is clean enough for drinking, while even our ground water is so polluted that it can’t be drunk without filtering. They have few people in the streets, and two or three people can occupy a small residential building; in contrast our streets are always crawling with people, and several people have to share one room. Many years ago, there was a book titled Yellow Catastrophes. It said that, due to our following the American style of
consumption, our limited resources would no longer support the population and society would collapse once our population reaches 1.3 billion. Now our population has already exceeded this limit, and we are now relying on imports to sustain our nation. It’s not that we haven’t paid attention to this issue. The Ministry of Land Resources is specialized in this issue.
But we must understand that the term ‘living space’ (lebenstraum) is too closely related to Nazi Germany. The reason we don’t want to discuss this too openly is to avoid the West’s association of us with Nazi Germany, which could in turn reinforce the view that China is a threat. Therefore, in our emphasis on He Xin’s new theory, ‘Human Rights are just living rights’ we only talk about ‘living’ but not ‘space’ so as to avoid using the term ‘living space.’ From the perspective of history, the reason that China is faced with the issue of living space is because Western countries have developed ahead of Eastern countries. Western countries established colonies all around the world, therefore giving themselves an advantage on the issue of living space. To solve this problem, we must lead the Chinese people outside of China, so that they can develop outside of China.
Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization. Therefore, solving the ‘issue of America’ is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was
originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the White race. We the descendants of the Chinese nation are ENTITLED to the possession of the land!!! It is historical destiny that China and United States will come into unavoidable confrontation on a narrow path and fight. In the long run, the relationship of China and the United States is one of a life-and-death struggle.
Of course, right now it is not the time to openly break up with them yet. Our reform and opening to the outside world still rely on their capital and technology. We still need America. Therefore, we must do everything we can to promote our relationship with America, learn from America in all aspects and use America as an example to reconstruct our country. Only by using special means to ‘clean up’ America will we be able to lead the Chinese people there. Only by using non-destructive weapons that can kill many people will we be able to reserve America for ourselves. There has been rapid development of modern biological technology, and new bio weapons have been invented one after another. Of course we have not been idle; in the past years we have seized the opportunity to master weapons of this kind. We are capable of achieving our purpose of ‘cleaning up’ America all of a sudden. When Comrade Xiaoping was still with us, the Party Central Committee had the perspicacity to make the right decision not to develop aircraft carrier groups and focused instead on developing lethal weapons that can eliminate mass populations of the enemy country. Biological weapons are unprecedented in their ruthlessness, but if the Americans do not die then the Chinese have to die. If the Chinese people are strapped to the present land, a total societal collapse is bound to take place.
According to the computations of the author of Yellow Peril, more than half of the Chinese will die, and that figure would be more than 800 million people! Just after the liberation, our yellow land supported nearly 500 million people, while today the official figure of the population is more than 1.3 billion. This yellow land has reached the limit of its capacity. One day, who know how soon it will come, the great collapse will occur any time and more than half of the population will have to go.
It is indeed brutal to kill one or two hundred million Americans. But that is the only path that will secure a Chinese century, a century in which the CCP leads the world. We, as revolutionary humanitarians, do not want deaths, But if history confronts us with a choice between deaths of Chinese and those of Americans, we’d have to pick the latter, as, for us, it is more important to safeguard the lives of the Chinese people and the life of our Party.
The last problem I want to talk about is of firmly seizing the preparations for military battle. The central committee believes, as long as we resolve the United States problem at one blow, our domestic problems will all be readily solved. Therefore, our military battle preparation appears to aim at Taiwan, but in fact is aimed at the United States, and the preparation is far beyond the scope of attacking aircraft carriers or satellites. Marxism pointed out that violence is the midwife for the birth of the new society. Therefore war is the midwife for the birth of China’s century.”

Last edited by Fox466; 04-06-2009 at 11:27 AM.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 07:55 PM
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Mr. Obama's characterizations of his budget unfortunately fall into this pattern. He claims to reduce the deficit by half, to shave $2 trillion off the debt (the cumulative deficit over his 10-year budget horizon), and not to raise taxes on anyone making less than $250,000 a year. While in a Clintonian sense correct (depends on what the definition of "is" is), it is far more accurate to describe Mr. Obama's budget as almost tripling the deficit. It adds $6.5 trillion to the national debt, and leaves future U.S. taxpayers (many of whom will make far less than $250,000) with the tab. And all this before dealing with the looming Medicare and Social Security cost explosion.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123871911466984927.html

If the CBO is correct, the US government will be paying $1Trillion a year just to service its debt with in the next decade. If that happens, either Texas needs to leave the union or I would. I am not paying for that.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 08:25 PM
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So, fiscally speaking, we as a state would be smart to secede.


Sounds plausible given the size of the debt and the current state of the union in terms of 'spending like a drunken sailor'...
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 09:51 PM
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If that happens, either Texas needs to leave the union or I would.
I'm already ahead of you. I just gotta sell my house now.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 09:52 PM
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So, fiscally speaking, we as a state would be smart to secede.


Sounds plausible given the size of the debt and the current state of the union in terms of 'spending like a drunken sailor'...
I would bet anything that no state is going to secede.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 11:45 PM
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We are the welfare child of the world now. I see it like this, say you are a conservative guy, you work and save money and therefor have some savings. You have an old friend that lives it up, parties all the time and blows credit like crazy and drives a Mercedes yet he has to borrow money from you to pay the rent. He has never paid you back a dollar and keeps borrowing. At what point do you say enough is enough and demand repayment? Do you honestly think the guy will get to keep his mercedes?
The analogy would be more correct the conservative guy you describe was a Mercedes dealer. If that playboy is the only one in town that can afford to buy his cars, what does he do? Keep loaning him money in hopes he gets back on track so he'll buy another Mercedes from him, or cut him off and go broke himself because he has no buyers for his cars anymore?

My point is that we are a *huge* consumer of Chinese exports, and if we stop buying, they'll be right behind us on the slide going down.
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 07:07 AM
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I would bet anything that no state is going to secede.
There is zero chance any state will . We are stronger as a nation than as a bunch of seperate states . The thought of Texas leaving the U.S control sounds great until it actually happend .
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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The analogy would be more correct the conservative guy you describe was a Mercedes dealer. If that playboy is the only one in town that can afford to buy his cars, what does he do? Keep loaning him money in hopes he gets back on track so he'll buy another Mercedes from him, or cut him off and go broke himself because he has no buyers for his cars anymore?

My point is that we are a *huge* consumer of Chinese exports, and if we stop buying, they'll be right behind us on the slide going down.
Yea ive heard that point a few times. I think china doesnt really care about the money. There is alot of evidence that china wants our land and that is why they have no problem allowing us to get futher and futher in debt with them. Not like all that money they get goes to their citizens, it all goes to their communist government. They also are starting their push to remove the dollar as the world currency and no doubt will try and make themselves in control.

The real kicker about all of this, say china does call its debt due and tries to declare emminent domain in the US. I have no doubt or atleast hope that the american people tell china to go fuck themselves. Now we have a situation, we borrowed money and put up our country as collateral and now that they want it we are refusing to honor the agreement? Kinda makes us the bad guys right, since they have the law on their side? Im wondering how the world would view the US in a case like this. Even funnier part to this is, the american people, never in a million years would agree to mortage their land been given the chance in the decision! ROH OH! Big government fuck up in that case! If this is true, they all need to be shot for treason.

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-08-2009, 07:59 AM
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Germany was dead broke in the 1930s.
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-08-2009, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Germany was dead broke in the 1930s.
Yup, one of the main reasons that lead to WW2. They were even more broke afterwards, good thing the good ole americans were nice and helped them out. Something tells me the chinese wont be so kind however.

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-08-2009, 11:36 AM
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Capitalism and American free trade are not to blame. Unfair trade advantages didn't help, or entitlement programs either.

I still firmly believe if we walled off the US the country would survive and flourish. But if those walls went up, the rest of the world would be in some seriously deep shit.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-08-2009, 12:19 PM
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Capitalism and American free trade are not to blame. Unfair trade advantages didn't help, or entitlement programs either.

I still firmly believe if we walled off the US the country would survive and flourish. But if those walls went up, the rest of the world would be in some seriously deep shit.
We've never had free trade, at least not since 1789. As long as the goverment is subsidizing, charging tariffs and using other trade barriers it's not a free trade market. They are all great ideas initially but just like anything else, once the government finds a revenue stream it doesn't ever go away.

Initially tariffs were introduced to help stem American startup companies, the only problem is that as the production and development costs went down to a point where they could easily compete with foreign companies (remember they still have transportation costs and the Americans wouldn't) the tariffs remained intact.

Of course the argument is that the tariffs were needed to support the federal government since there wasn't an income tax at the time. However the foreign companies figured out how to get production costs even lower to compete while ours didn't have to. The answer of course is more tariffs, not figuring out how to cut costs here. This is how we can afford to pay $80 an hour to screw on lug nuts while paying $25,000,000 a year to CEOs of failing companies.

Now we've priced ourselves out of the global market on nearly everything. Thank goodness we had Henry Ford and later the tech industry or the only thing keeping us afloat for all these years would be our military might, that we can't pay for since we don't produce anything.
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