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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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Maybe I love Texas too much...

...perhaps to a point of naivity. I would think that this state would be the pioneer for personal rights, especially toward protection and privacy.

Two things big in the news that are driving me crazy right now.
1) No carry on college campus. I don't get any of the logic behind this, but it's the same logic perpetuated throughout no-carry states. I just fear that if these newer resolutions are shot down, we may be quickly heading toward losing our right to carry period.

2) Police being able to force you to give blood for a DUI stop. Now, I can understand the reasoning behind this. I never plan to be in this situation, so the direct affects of a DUI stop are not what worry me. Two other points scare me, however. The fact that they can force a needle through my skin to take my blood. And an infringement on what I thought was the right to not incriminate myself. Maybe I just feel that being stuck with a god damn needle is too invasive. This process I think might be the one to really set me over. I'm not one to act all billy badass, fuck the police and what not, but I hope if they ever try to stick me I'm going to give them a hell of a fight. I just don't think I could willingly abide to it.

I dunno, I'm just rambling. But both of these things seriously concern me as of late. I'll save the Texas school board decision on teaching evolution for later. That bothers me, but not to the point of these first two.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 10:49 AM
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It just shows that no matter where you are, shit rises to top of the heap at times.

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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 10:53 AM
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the idea of a cop sticking a needle in my arm isn't exactly comforting.
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 10:59 AM
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Yep I'm bothered by the drawing of blood. I have the right to remain silent and then I invoke this right they find away around it. If someone is driving drunk to the point where they are impaired they have plenty of tools at their disposal to build a case. But then again if they stop you for some bullshit reason then at the leo's discretion he want's to give you a sobriety test it is my right to refuse so as not to incriminate myself.
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 10:59 AM
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the idea of a cop sticking a needle in my arm isn't exactly comforting.
No shit. I don't drink and drive so if they tried to say that I did and were drawing blood they better bring some help.

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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 11:14 AM
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the idea of a cop sticking a needle in my arm isn't exactly comforting.
Pretty sure they'd take you to a hospital

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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Pretty sure they'd take you to a hospital
Not anymore. They were forcing you to go to a hospital, but now the hospitals want no part of it. They don't need their resources tied up, nor do they want the liability in the courts. So, in lieu of the hospital...they are going to start training police officers to be "medical technicians" enough to where they can draw the blood on their own.
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 11:24 AM
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Not anymore. They were forcing you to go to a hospital, but now the hospitals want no part of it. They don't need their resources tied up, nor do they want the liability in the courts. So, in lieu of the hospital...they are going to start training police officers to be "medical technicians" enough to where they can draw the blood on their own.
Man, I'm with you then. F-that.

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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 11:24 AM
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Pretty sure they'd take you to a hospital
They better take me to the hospital because most trained teck's can't draw my blood from me because my vains like to jump & roll. I wonder if they would call that withholding evidence. LOL

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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:17 PM
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They better have a warrant to get my blood. Blatant invasion of privacy on top of self-incrimination.

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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:32 PM
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I remember Rick Perry said something about wanting to allow carry on campus right after Virginia Tech, but nothing ever came of it.


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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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They better have a warrant to get my blood. Blatant invasion of privacy on top of self-incrimination.
I think they still have to get warrants, but the process for a DUI check is almost an assembly line. They call in and have them within 15 minutes ever single time, nothing more than a formality.
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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:50 PM
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The Senate recently approved a bill raising the smoking age to 19. Still has to go through the House where a similar bill failed in '07, but I'm still a bit disgusted and I don't even smoke. It's estimated that the state will lose $12.5 million in tax revenue. Genius.

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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:51 PM
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I think they still have to get warrants, but the process for a DUI check is almost an assembly line. They call in and have them within 15 minutes ever single time, nothing more than a formality.
But if you're not breaking the law, then what do you have to worry about? It's just a quick inconvenience. Just take 30 minutes to get your blood drawn and be on your way.

And anyway, it's not like you can't go a different direction. You're just doing a lot of complaining. I don't see how this is an invasion of your privacy. It's just the Police protecting you from yourself.

LOL!

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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:55 PM
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Regarding CHL on campus, I saw something on the news just this week saying that bill to allow concealed carry on campus was going forward.

Regarding blood drawing, I'm not a big fan of it myself. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of people who've been arrested twenty times for DWI but walked away just because they refused to cooperate. Too many times I've seen that guy at the scene of the accident where somebody was killed by his lame ass and he stands there snickering because he thinks he's untouchable.

So here's the skinny: Texas is an implied consent state - meaning that Texas has a law that says if you drive on our roads and are arrested for DWI you will provide a breath/urine sample. You agree to this when you sign on the dotted line for your drivers license.

The blood draw is only done pusuant to a valid search warrant being issued. Probable Cause is built by the factors that led to the traffic stop (weaving, driving with lights out, asleep at the red light or in the Whataburger drive-thru); the PC being further developed at the time of the stop (glassy, bloodshot eyes, slurred speech, poor motor skills, failed standardized field sobriety test, etc) and then goes additional PC developed depending on what happened at the jail (refused breath or urine test, passed out during book-in, vomited, fought, etc). The officer prepares an affidavit and presents it to a magistrate. Only if the magistrate agrees that there is sufficient PC, a search warrant is issued and blood can be drawn. It isn't just hey this guy won't blow, lets tackle him and get some blood kind of deal.

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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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But if you're not breaking the law, then what do you have to worry about? It's just a quick inconvenience. Just take 30 minutes to get your blood drawn and be on your way.

And anyway, it's not like you can't go a different direction. You're just doing a lot of complaining. I don't see how this is an invasion of your privacy. It's just the Police protecting you from yourself.

LOL!
God damnit, don't fuck with me. lmao. I thought you were serious and was thinking, "WTF is wrong with Slowhand today?"
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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 12:58 PM
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Stop trying to apply logic to the situation.
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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:05 PM
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I am in favor of CHL carrying on campuses and anywhere else the public has access.

I still am wondering why anyone has a porblem with LE serving a signed SW for blood for any crime. I would be on board if it was some rouge attempt to circumvent the SW requirement, but how else should LE get evidence of a crime? The way all courts prefer is to obtain evidence by SW. They give us some exceptions to a SW, but they are actually pretty restrcitive.

To all of the guys who say we better bring help if we do try and stick a needle in your arm after a judge signs the warrant authorizing us, trust me we will.

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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:06 PM
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God damnit, don't fuck with me. lmao. I thought you were serious and was thinking, "WTF is wrong with Slowhand today?"
I just really, really love the government today. They've done plenty of things wrong in the past, mostly in the late 1700s, but they've been nothing but good to me over the past 6 months. Why shouldn't we give them more power?

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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:07 PM
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To all of the guys who say we better bring help if we do try and stick a needle in your arm after a judge signs the warrant authorizing us, trust me we will.
Oh yea, well you better bring more, pig!

This topic has been beaten to death so much so that even I am tired of talking about it. And fuck, I will ramble on forever...

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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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I am in favor of CHL carrying on campuses and anywhere else the public has access.

I still am wondering why anyone has a porblem with LE serving a signed SW for blood for any crime. I would be on board if it was some rouge attempt to circumvent the SW requirement, but how else should LE get evidence of a crime? The way all courts prefer is to obtain evidence by SW. They give us some exceptions to a SW, but they are actually pretty restrcitive.

To all of the guys who say we better bring help if we do try and stick a needle in your arm after a judge signs the warrant authorizing us, trust me we will.
It's not so much an issue to me who is drawing the blood, be it LEO or nurse. I just don't want things being taken out of my body without my implicit or implied consent.
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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:07 PM
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Regarding CHL on campus, I saw something on the news just this week saying that bill to allow concealed carry on campus was going forward.

Regarding blood drawing, I'm not a big fan of it myself. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of people who've been arrested twenty times for DWI but walked away just because they refused to cooperate. Too many times I've seen that guy at the scene of the accident where somebody was killed by his lame ass and he stands there snickering because he thinks he's untouchable.

So here's the skinny: Texas is an implied consent state - meaning that Texas has a law that says if you drive on our roads and are arrested for DWI you will provide a breath/urine sample. You agree to this when you sign on the dotted line for your drivers license.

The blood draw is only done pusuant to a valid search warrant being issued. Probable Cause is built by the factors that led to the traffic stop (weaving, driving with lights out, asleep at the red light or in the Whataburger drive-thru); the PC being further developed at the time of the stop (glassy, bloodshot eyes, slurred speech, poor motor skills, failed standardized field sobriety test, etc) and then goes additional PC developed depending on what happened at the jail (refused breath or urine test, passed out during book-in, vomited, fought, etc). The officer prepares an affidavit and presents it to a magistrate. Only if the magistrate agrees that there is sufficient PC, a search warrant is issued and blood can be drawn. It isn't just hey this guy won't blow, lets tackle him and get some blood kind of deal.
I have explained this many times and even given the court case where the TX court of appeals upheld the use of a SW in DWI cases and some still disagree with it.

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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:08 PM
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It's not so much an issue to me who is drawing the blood, be it LEO or nurse. I just don't want things being taken out of my body without my implicit or implied consent.
So it's all SW's, not just ones for DWI, right? I hope you see what road I am going down here.

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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:09 PM
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I just really, really love the government today. They've done plenty of things wrong in the past, mostly in the late 1700s, but they've been nothing but good to me over the past 6 months. Why shouldn't we give them more power?
Hey man, you can trust the government with more power. That has always worked well. Just look at history!
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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:12 PM
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It's not so much an issue to me who is drawing the blood, be it LEO or nurse. I just don't want things being taken out of my body without my implicit or implied consent.
I hear what you're saying, but when a search warrant is issued, your cooperation, implicit, implied or otherwise is a moot point.

I hear ya Paladin. Whether any of us like it or not, its here. Best bet is don't drink and drive.

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:12 PM
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Hey man, you can trust the government with more power. That has always worked well. Just look at history!
Jimmy Carter did well with it!

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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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So it's all SW's, not just ones for DWI, right? I hope you see what road I am going down here.
I do see where you're going. But what other SW is going to force me to give up my blood?

I'm also fairly disdained with the whole DWI process as I have spoken about in the past, so that undoubtedly biases my DWI specific SW outlook.
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:14 PM
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Jimmy Carter did well with it!
The new one will make Carter look like a John Birch Society member.

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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:14 PM
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So it's all SW's, not just ones for DWI, right? I hope you see what road I am going down here.
I'll have to side with you here. An SW pretty much rules out my consent.

The only SWs I have any issue with are ones generated off of FLIR data and after a cop tells me he "smells" "marijuana". Other than that, you won't find me arguing over it.

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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:15 PM
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The new one will make Carter look like a John Birch Society member.
Watch yourself. His press secretary might call you an idiot.

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post #31 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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I totally get that a SW makes my consent worth jackshit. But think that SW should be more geared towards property if anything. I'm even more on board with giving up a hair or something (DNA, etc.) but stay away from my gd blood!
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post #32 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:19 PM
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I totally get that a SW makes my consent worth jackshit. But think that SW should be more geared towards property if anything. I'm even more on board with giving up a hair or something (DNA, etc.) but stay away from my gd blood!
The last thing I need is a cop to have a sample of my hair

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post #33 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:25 PM
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Watch yourself. His press secretary might call you an idiot.
Proud CONSERVATIVE idiot.

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post #34 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:16 PM
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I do see where you're going. But what other SW is going to force me to give up my blood?

I'm also fairly disdained with the whole DWI process as I have spoken about in the past, so that undoubtedly biases my DWI specific SW outlook.
I spent 4.5 years as a sexual assault investogator. I wrote a bunch of SW's and most were for blood.

You make it seem like a SW is for blood specifically, when in reality they are evidentiary warrants that specify what evidence or property is being concealed or needed. You could write a SW for a residence to find a shoe that may match a print left on a scene (for instance), a vehicle, or a person for blood and other things.

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post #35 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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I spent 4.5 years as a sexual assault investogator. I wrote a bunch of SW's and most were for blood.

You make it seem like a SW is for blood specifically, when in reality they are evidentiary warrants that specify what evidence or property is being concealed or needed. You could write a SW for a residence to find a shoe that may match a print left on a scene (for instance), a vehicle, or a person for blood and other things.
I'm not trying to come across as that. I'm not against SW as a whole, mostly ones that require me to give my blood, especially without any other admissible evidence.
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post #36 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:18 PM
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I totally get that a SW makes my consent worth jackshit. But think that SW should be more geared towards property if anything. I'm even more on board with giving up a hair or something (DNA, etc.) but stay away from my gd blood!
If alcohol content could be determined in another way without the offenders cooperation (which he/she has already refused or we wouldn't be doing the SW) we would rather do that instead.

You cannot force someone to give a breath sample, it requires the person to cooperate. That is why when we have a death involving a suspected DWI we are allowed to get a blood sample without a warrant.

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post #37 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:24 PM
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I'm not trying to come across as that. I'm not against SW as a whole, mostly ones that require me to give my blood, especially without any other admissible evidence.
Why would you say there is no mother admissible evidence? Isn't my testimony and observations of your driving, your appearance, your odor, your voluntary admiisions, your physical impairments, etc. also evidence? It is just one piece of the whole prosecution pie towards proving the case. The SW is a tool we are allowed to utilize to prosecute suspected DWI offenders. If we did not have all the other evidence we would not be able to obtain the PC SW. So far FW has 100% over the limit BAC results on every SW we have served since I started the prgram a few years ago according to my predecessor. I cannot speak of other agencies results.

BTW, I completely understand the whole sticking a needle in your body and how intrusive it is and all, but I do not know of an alternative.

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post #38 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:30 PM
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I'll have to side with you here. An SW pretty much rules out my consent.

The only SWs I have any issue with are ones generated off of FLIR data and after a cop tells me he "smells" "marijuana". Other than that, you won't find me arguing over it.
Let's don't egven go there about the FLIR. There is some idiot on here that claims FW uses it for random checks of houses but can't/won't give me proof we do it.

I still mainatin we do not randomly fly around the city looking for residences with high heat signatures to start dope investigations.

I think it is highly illegal and improper btw.

The "smell of marijuana" stuff works for me. I stopped 2 guys last week for nearly hitting me and running a red light. I smelled it very strongly. I called one of my troops over and we searched the car and found nothing. I asked them where they had smoked it and they said they had just left a friends apartment and were smoking there. I said fair enough and had them get a non high adult make the scene to drive the car away. They didn't have DL or insurance, so they were very happy they were not arrested, but they gave me no lip or gave me no reason to believe they were so high that they needed to go to jail.

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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #39 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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Why would you say there is no mother admissible evidence? Isn't my testimony and observations of your driving, your appearance, your odor, your voluntary admiisions, your physical impairments, etc. also evidence? It is just one piece of the whole prosecution pie towards proving the case. The SW is a tool we are allowed to utilize to prosecute suspected DWI offenders. If we did not have all the other evidence we would not be able to obtain the PC SW. So far FW has 100% over the limit BAC results on every SW we have served since I started the prgram a few years ago according to my predecessor. I cannot speak of other agencies results.

BTW, I completely understand the whole sticking a needle in your body and how intrusive it is and all, but I do not know of an alternative.
Well, say I were to get pulled over for suspected DUI (I never have, btw) because I only had my parking lights on and I didn't comply to the field sobriety test or the breathalizer. Maybe you smelled alcohol, from the one beer I had. That would enable you to stick a needle in me without my permission (atleast, by APD standards, I dunno about FWPD). I just don't think it's right to require any of that from me.

Trust me, I hate each and every drunk driver just like the next guy. I have spent my fair share of stupid tax on cabs to make sure I'm not ever, ever, ever in that situation. And I realize that this makes it so much harder for you guys to do the right thing. I just can't support the system that could foster so much abuse. It's not that I don't trust you to do the right thing, but I don't trust them as a whole.

You always present FWPD well, and I'm glad you guys are doing a bang up job from all I hear. I just can't ever willingly give up those liberties in general. I do wish/hope for a better way to do it, but I don't want to commit to this way of doing it.
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post #40 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:50 PM
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Well, say I were to get pulled over for suspected DUI (I never have, btw) because I only had my parking lights on and I didn't comply to the field sobriety test or the breathalizer. Maybe you smelled alcohol, from the one beer I had. That would enable you to stick a needle in me without my permission (atleast, by APD standards, I dunno about FWPD). I just don't think it's right to require any of that from me.

Trust me, I hate each and every drunk driver just like the next guy. I have spent my fair share of stupid tax on cabs to make sure I'm not ever, ever, ever in that situation. And I realize that this makes it so much harder for you guys to do the right thing. I just can't support the system that could foster so much abuse. It's not that I don't trust you to do the right thing, but I don't trust them as a whole.

You always present FWPD well, and I'm glad you guys are doing a bang up job from all I hear. I just can't ever willingly give up those liberties in general.
I understand your concern about abuse of SW's and police power, I have them also. I cannot say for sure that you would or would not go to jail for the above scenario, but I can tell you that if you completely refuse to comply with any requests of the officers and he smells alcohol, hears slurred speech, bloodshot eyes, or any number of the other clues we are loking for you will go to jail. If you go to jail and refuse you have a very high chance of getting a SW served on you. We (FWPD) do not require a SW on all refusals except when there are previous convictions for DWI, where an inncoent person is injured, or where the officer feels it would be of value. Our officers have quite a bit of discretion and we don't do but about 10-20 SW's a month (I think that is what we average now) and we usually have 200+ DWI arrests a month easy.

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #41 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 06:16 PM
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I am a Morman and don't drink but I'll tell ya'll this; the only way any LEO will get blood from me is by shooting me and I promise that I will be the first to start shooting.
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post #42 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 07:46 PM
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I am a Morman and don't drink but I'll tell ya'll this; the only way any LEO will get blood from me is by shooting me and I promise that I will be the first to start shooting.
What is a "Morman" doing in the hooker hotel?

One
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America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #43 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 07:49 PM
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I am a Morman and don't drink but I'll tell ya'll this; the only way any LEO will get blood from me is by shooting me and I promise that I will be the first to start shooting.
Wow, you are too cool! LOL!!!

Do you guys forget that a magistrate has to sign the warrant? If there is not enough probable cause for the warrant, the magistrate will not sign off. They are held accountable for the warrants they sign.

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post #44 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 08:01 PM
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What is a "Morman" doing in the hooker hotel?
Getting laid imo


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Women: vaginal life support.
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post #45 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 08:02 PM
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Getting laid imo
Okay, is that what a Mormon would also be doing in there?

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #46 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 08:08 PM
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[QUOTE=Paladin;5650360]What is a "Morman" doing in the hooker hotel?[/QUO

The hooker hotel thing is an inside joke. I used to race for a living and had to stay in a bunch of cheap hotels; most of which were used by call girls to meet up with their clients. When I stopped racing and started a new business in Dallas I did not have an apartment or a house in town so I lived at a hotel for 5 months. It also had most of it's rooms booked by "Professional" girls who kept odd hours. I also haven't been active in the church for some time but some things just stick with ya like no drinking or smoking, storing food and ammo, and having lots of wives.( just kidding about the wives)
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post #47 of 47 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 09:49 AM
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[QUOTE=svo855;5650405]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
What is a "Morman" doing in the hooker hotel?[/QUO

The hooker hotel thing is an inside joke. I used to race for a living and had to stay in a bunch of cheap hotels; most of which were used by call girls to meet up with their clients. When I stopped racing and started a new business in Dallas I did not have an apartment or a house in town so I lived at a hotel for 5 months. It also had most of it's rooms booked by "Professional" girls who kept odd hours. I also haven't been active in the church for some time but some things just stick with ya like no drinking or smoking, storing food and ammo, and having lots of wives.( just kidding about the wives)

I was just poking a little fun becuase you misspelled Mormon, and you are one.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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