Wagoner leaving GM with compensation worth $23M - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 06:36 AM Thread Starter
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Exclamation Wagoner leaving GM with compensation worth $23M

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Wagone...-14785896.html


NEW YORK (AP) -- Former General Motors Corp. Chairman and Chief Executive Rick Wagoner won't get a severance payment from the automaker, but he'll still get a pension and other benefits worth an estimated $23 million.

Hell sounds to me like he got a good deal, get all that money and now doesn't have to stress about GM.

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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 07:26 AM
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Anyone think the AIG lynch mob will be on top of this one too???

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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 08:28 AM
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No reason they should be. Guy worked there for over 3 decades.

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 09:08 AM
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No reason they should be. Guy worked there for over 3 decades.
No shit. He didn't exactly walk into that job saying "just give me a paycheck", it was negotiated from the start.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 09:12 AM
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No reason they should be. Guy worked there for over 3 decades.
Oh, I agree, but you know the public outcry will be, "He ran the company in the ground. We're giving them billions and this guy gets 23 million for leaving the company!!!"

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 09:20 AM
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I don't see the problem with that. GM builds really good cars these days, and he is responsible for a lot of their quality and product improvements. I think the biggest thing that is dragging GM and Chrysler down is how PUBLIC their requests for bailout funds have been. No one wants to buy a car from a company that seems on the brink of collapse. I'm sure Ford would like to have money too, but it was a chess move to make people feel FoMoCo is more stable.

GM will be fine, but it is time to reduce capacity and operating costs. A painful time for sure. No amount of bailout funds is going to change the fact that they pay way too much to build their cars.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 10:48 AM
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I don't see the problem with that. GM builds really good cars these days, and he is responsible for a lot of their quality and product improvements. I think the biggest thing that is dragging GM and Chrysler down is how PUBLIC their requests for bailout funds have been. No one wants to buy a car from a company that seems on the brink of collapse. I'm sure Ford would like to have money too, but it was a chess move to make people feel FoMoCo is more stable.

GM will be fine, but it is time to reduce capacity and operating costs. A painful time for sure. No amount of bailout funds is going to change the fact that they pay way too much to build their cars.
A) GM builds crap compared to the quality you get from a Toyota or Honda. Both GM and Ford did hold an advantage in the half ton truck market, but I believe they lost major ground to both Toyota and Nissan.

B) Public opinion is not what's dragging GM down. It's the second point you made about them -- it is time to reduce capacity and operating costs. You can't say someone did a great job running a company and then say they pay way too much to build their cars. They go hand in hand. IMO, yes, they build a nice vehicle, but for the costs going into it, it sucks for what it could be.

If they were really doing a good job, they wouldn't need bail out funds. Also, I disagree that GM will be fine. I personally don't think they'll really fix their problems. I think they'll do enough band-aid work to get the money and keep afloat. All the problems will continue to be there and will rear their ugly head again down the road and just be a drain on us.

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 11:00 AM
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A) GM builds crap compared to the quality you get from a Toyota or Honda. Both GM and Ford did hold an advantage in the half ton truck market, but I believe they lost major ground to both Toyota and Nissan.

B) Public opinion is not what's dragging GM down. It's the second point you made about them -- it is time to reduce capacity and operating costs. You can't say someone did a great job running a company and then say they pay way too much to build their cars. They go hand in hand. IMO, yes, they build a nice vehicle, but for the costs going into it, it sucks for what it could be.

If they were really doing a good job, they wouldn't need bail out funds. Also, I disagree that GM will be fine. I personally don't think they'll really fix their problems. I think they'll do enough band-aid work to get the money and keep afloat. All the problems will continue to be there and will rear their ugly head again down the road and just be a drain on us.
Regarding quote B above, one could easily substitute the federal goverment in place of GM.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 11:06 AM
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A) GM builds crap compared to the quality you get from a Toyota or Honda. Both GM and Ford did hold an advantage in the half ton truck market, but I believe they lost major ground to both Toyota and Nissan.
I have still not seen recent evidence of this claim.

From knowing some mechanics locally who work on a variety of cars, current Detriot-built cars are not that much different in quality from the Toyotas and Hondas of the world.

15-20 years ago, I think you had an argument. Today, not so sure.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 12:00 PM
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Regarding quote B above, one could easily substitute the federal goverment in place of GM.
For once, I'll actually agree with you.

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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 12:05 PM
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I have still not seen recent evidence of this claim.

From knowing some mechanics locally who work on a variety of cars, current Detriot-built cars are not that much different in quality from the Toyotas and Hondas of the world.

15-20 years ago, I think you had an argument. Today, not so sure.
Having owned both (past and present), I'll disagree. Just go look around at cars on the road with over 150K miles on them. I'm betting you'll find more Toyotas and Hondas out there and that they provide less trouble. Mechanically they are better and they also ride/hold up better inside. Detroit vehicles become rattle traps after a while. I hate it, but they do.

If you take into account the fact that so many cars are leased and turned over within 3 years, you may have a valid argument. Many of the American cars are just as good and in some ways better for the first handful of years/miles. They hit a point though where they really fall of. I own two Toyotas with over 100K miles. One is 13 years old. They both drive and run as well as the day they came off the lot.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
Having owned both (past and present), I'll disagree. Just go look around at cars on the road with over 150K miles on them. I'm betting you'll find more Toyotas and Hondas out there and that they provide less trouble. Mechanically they are better and they also ride/hold up better inside. Detroit vehicles become rattle traps after a while. I hate it, but they do.

If you take into account the fact that so many cars are leased and turned over within 3 years, you may have a valid argument. Many of the American cars are just as good and in some ways better for the first handful of years/miles. They hit a point though where they really fall of. I own two Toyotas with over 100K miles. One is 13 years old. They both drive and run as well as the day they came off the lot.

What about my '01 tahoe that has 130,000+ on it I have done nothing but change the oil and put gas in it. Hell it has the factory installed brakes.

What about my '06 2500HD with 289,000+ on it, I bet it will still out pull anything Toyota , Nissian , or Honada builds. It will also get 20+ MPG still on the HWY.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Juiceweezl View Post
Having owned both (past and present), I'll disagree. Just go look around at cars on the road with over 150K miles on them. I'm betting you'll find more Toyotas and Hondas out there and that they provide less trouble. Mechanically they are better and they also ride/hold up better inside. Detroit vehicles become rattle traps after a while. I hate it, but they do.

If you take into account the fact that so many cars are leased and turned over within 3 years, you may have a valid argument. Many of the American cars are just as good and in some ways better for the first handful of years/miles. They hit a point though where they really fall of. I own two Toyotas with over 100K miles. One is 13 years old. They both drive and run as well as the day they came off the lot.
Like I have said before, our family has 4 late model Ford vehicles. The 04 expedition has over 100k on it, my bros 98 gt has 169,000 on it, and they both have clean records, and have only had routine maintenance. The other two have less than 100k, but still are not giving trouble.

How many older Toyotas and Hondas do you see running around? I have never seen a toyota or honda from the 60's or 70's, but have definitely seen many American cars from those decades.

Bottom line is, Toyotas and Hondas have not shown that they can last longer than Americans vehicles.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 01:11 PM
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Toyotas and Hondas from the '60s and '70s were (excuse the expression) underpowered Jap traps devoid of any semblance of style. Thus they could not be expected to be in demand by car enthusiasts like Detriot iron from that era would be and instead went to the boneyard. That being said I considered a base model Tacoma versus a Ranger back in 2006, and opted for the Ranger on the basis of price. A test drive of each yielded no important differences in them that I could tell.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 01:17 PM
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Interesting. My truck has a lifetime warranty bumper to bumper and lifetime warranty powertrain. I think they're standing behind what they produce. GM needs to get rid of the UAW to cut costs
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 01:28 PM
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A) GM builds crap compared to the quality you get from a Toyota or Honda. Both GM and Ford did hold an advantage in the half ton truck market, but I believe they lost major ground to both Toyota and Nissan.
I believe that this is an uninformed opinion. Even the japanese trucks have issues, but the biased media covers them up. You never read about the japanese recalls, but recalls on american cars get big press.

For example, toyota had a 850k vehicle recall for rotting frames. Trucks would literally fold up as they were rolling down the road. And toyota had the sludge issue with engines a couple of years ago. Toyota also had an issue with camshafts breaking in tundras. And so on.

Toyota's recalls:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...ota/index.html

Nissan's recalls:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...san/index.html

My wife's 2000 expedition has rolled over 165k miles. Sure, we've had a couple of issues with it, but it still starts and drives fine. My focus only has 45k miles on it so far but it's been rock steady. Sure, you still get an american lemon every once in a while, but toyota and nissan make them as well. A fact that gets overlooked by the press and the american public.
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 01:43 PM
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Regarding quote B above, one could easily substitute the federal goverment in place of GM.
I think it should be substituted. These fucking fools are running the ship aground at full power.

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 02:48 PM
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I believe that this is an uninformed opinion. Even the japanese trucks have issues, but the biased media covers them up. You never read about the japanese recalls, but recalls on american cars get big press.

For example, toyota had a 850k vehicle recall for rotting frames. Trucks would literally fold up as they were rolling down the road. And toyota had the sludge issue with engines a couple of years ago. Toyota also had an issue with camshafts breaking in tundras. And so on.

Toyota's recalls:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...ota/index.html

Nissan's recalls:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...san/index.html

My wife's 2000 expedition has rolled over 165k miles. Sure, we've had a couple of issues with it, but it still starts and drives fine. My focus only has 45k miles on it so far but it's been rock steady. Sure, you still get an american lemon every once in a while, but toyota and nissan make them as well. A fact that gets overlooked by the press and the american public.
Yeah, they have recalls. My wife's Toyota van has had 3 -- one that applied only to vehicles in high snow/salted road areas. They said the salt had the potential to eat away the seal on the side doors and rather than only replace ones in snow markets, they replaced them all. There was a second recall on 8-seat models where there was a potential to have a piece of the plastic on the seat belt bezzle break and leave a sharp edge. The third had something to do with a small amount of radiator hoses showing a potential to leak. Again, they replaced all instead of just a select few. My Toyota truck has had a head gasket recall and then something in the steering (I believe a seal leaking somewhere). The steering recall was issued AFTER the truck was over 10 years old.

I have a focus with 36K miles on it. It's a good car for what I bought it for -- economic commuter. It rattles inside and whistles outside. The gas mileage is getting worse, the brakes are undersized. Ford compensated with that by using a harder pad which chews the rotor faster. Typically, you can't safely turn the rotor. Don't get me wrong, I like the car, but the wife's van which is several years older and has over 3 times as many miles runs and rides much better while weighing tons more and getting within 3 mpg.

I didn't follow your links to compare and see if they were new model year trucks. Typically that's when you see the most recalls from all auto makers. I have a friend that is retired GM quality control. He can tell you stories about the amount of transmissions and other parts that they replaced, thousands of parts that were even thrown away without being installed, and other such stories that won't show up in an article because they never issued a recall. Yes, you can get high mileage out of American cars. My father has an Expy with over 220K on it. It's had numerous issues along the way though. As a whole, the Japanese car maintains a better quality of ride and more reliability. There's a reason they out sell the US auto makers.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 03:50 PM
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What about my '06 2500HD with 289,000+ on it, I bet it will still out pull anything Toyota , Nissian , or Honada builds. It will also get 20+ MPG still on the HWY.
Ever heard of Hino (Toyota subsidiary)? Your Duramax was designed by Isuzu btw, the same company designing Toyota's new diesel.

The domestics had a 20+ year head start on diesel light/medium duty trucks but the Japanese are coming.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 04:14 PM
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Yeah, they have recalls. My wife's Toyota van has had 3 -- one that applied only to vehicles in high snow/salted road areas. They said the salt had the potential to eat away the seal on the side doors and rather than only replace ones in snow markets, they replaced them all. There was a second recall on 8-seat models where there was a potential to have a piece of the plastic on the seat belt bezzle break and leave a sharp edge. The third had something to do with a small amount of radiator hoses showing a potential to leak. Again, they replaced all instead of just a select few. My Toyota truck has had a head gasket recall and then something in the steering (I believe a seal leaking somewhere). The steering recall was issued AFTER the truck was over 10 years old.

I have a focus with 36K miles on it. It's a good car for what I bought it for -- economic commuter. It rattles inside and whistles outside. The gas mileage is getting worse, the brakes are undersized. Ford compensated with that by using a harder pad which chews the rotor faster. Typically, you can't safely turn the rotor. Don't get me wrong, I like the car, but the wife's van which is several years older and has over 3 times as many miles runs and rides much better while weighing tons more and getting within 3 mpg.

I didn't follow your links to compare and see if they were new model year trucks. Typically that's when you see the most recalls from all auto makers. I have a friend that is retired GM quality control. He can tell you stories about the amount of transmissions and other parts that they replaced, thousands of parts that were even thrown away without being installed, and other such stories that won't show up in an article because they never issued a recall. Yes, you can get high mileage out of American cars. My father has an Expy with over 220K on it. It's had numerous issues along the way though. As a whole, the Japanese car maintains a better quality of ride and more reliability. There's a reason they out sell the US auto makers.
What year is your focus? Mine is a 2007 and the brakes will put you thru the windshield if hit hard enough. Ford redesigned the focus in 2005, the ones before that have issues. I expect rotors to be throw away items these days.

But to say that GM builds "crap" is a rather stong statement. Believe me, they have come a long way since the 1980s, when they did actually build piles of shit. I owned a few of them.
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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 09:41 PM
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I love american cars, always have but i have been saying for the last few years that GM is making some stupid ass decisions.

They are always too little too late. Look at how long it took them to release the HHR, how many years after the PT came out?

Then they did away with the name S10 which is very recognized and come out with a mid size truck with a different name. Mid size trucks have never sold well, look at the dakota, s10 outsold the hell out of them.

They killed the camaro, cause as they said, the RWD v8 performance car was dead. Then ford released the retro styled mustang and couldnt build them fast enough. Now they bring the camaro back, take 20 Fing years to get the damn thing to market and claim it to be superior of course since its GM. Speaking of, i saw one going down the road the other day, are they actually able to be purchased now? Im sure the price is no way near the 30k they are supposed to be, thats too close to GMs beloved corvette.

Then you have GMs passenger cars.....BORING. They look like cop cars and rentals, who wants to buy one of those? Basically to GM, if you cant afford a vette, which is a badass car, you get a POS. Menawhile the foreign companies design cool looking cars even if they are pathetic performancewise, atleast they look cool plus they have the quality rep behind them. I see a new toyota or nissan or even saw a Hyundia the other day and said "Thats a cool looking car for a family car" Then you look at american family cars......yawn.

Domestic car companies took a giant shit on the consumer decades ago, didnt take the foreign companies serious due to american arrogance and are now feeling the burn. I hate it but its true, the only thing saving them the last decade was the fullsize truck sales and they were about to lose that. Toyota sells the shit out of that new tundra but the nissan titan didnt do so well, heard it was being discontinued. Even though they did make vast improvements, the damage was done. It wasnt even the companies fault alot of the times, it was the shitty dealership service not taking care of the customers.

I just love watching everything that made america being destroyed by foreigners. Makes me all giddy inside when i think of all the people that died to make this country what it was only to have all pissed away by our own stupidity and arrogance. We use to build some of the most highly wanted cars in the world and did it for decades...what in the F happened to this country?

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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 04:44 AM
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I on one hand kind of feel like with 30 years tenure this isn't entirely unreasonable, but on the other hand GM lost 85 billion under his leadership. I think the criticism is spot on in regards to him. He did have a lack of vision and failed to recognize new market trends. He also has said his worst regard is killing the EV1 program because it damaged their image in a big way. They could have had the Chevy Volt introduced much earlier into market under a different business model.

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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 07:31 AM
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I one hand I kind of feel like with 30 years tenure this isn't entirely unreasonable, but on the other hand GM lost 85 billion under his leadership. I think the criticism is spot on in regards to him. He did have a lack of vision and failed to recognize new market trends. He also has said his worst regard is killing the EV1 program because it damaged their image in a big way. They could have had the Chevy Volt introduced much earlier into market under a different business model.
Keep in mind though that Wagoner was a car guy first. He loved big size and big power. He, for the foreseeable future, is the last of his breed. Penny pincher's will take over these companies and the used market will outpace the new market in great strides.

I plan to build a huge a/c'd shop to store giant SUV's in for when the time is right and then start selling them. It has been proven time and time again that when accountants get overly involved in vehicle production they screw it up.

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