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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Obama releases secret Bush anti-terror memos

WASHINGTON – The Obama administration threw open the curtain on years of Bush-era secrets Monday, revealing anti-terror memos that claimed exceptional search-and-seizure powers and divulging that the CIA destroyed nearly 100 videotapes of interrogations and other treatment of terror suspects.

The Justice Department released nine legal opinions showing that, following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Bush administration determined that certain constitutional rights would not apply during the coming fight. Within two weeks, government lawyers were already discussing ways to wiretap U.S. conversations without warrants.

The Bush administration eventually abandoned many of the legal conclusions, but the documents themselves had been closely held. By releasing them, President Barack Obama continued a house-cleaning of the previous administration's most contentious policies.

"Too often over the past decade, the fight against terrorism has been viewed as a zero-sum battle with our civil liberties," Attorney General Eric Holder said in a speech a few hours before the documents were released. "Not only is that school of thought misguided, I fear that in actuality it does more harm than good."

The Obama administration also acknowledged in court documents Monday that the CIA destroyed 92 videos involving terror suspects, including interrogations — far more than had been known. Congressional Democrats and other critics have charged that some of the harsh interrogation techniques amounted to torture, a contention President George W. Bush and other Bush officials rejected.

The new administration pledged on Monday to begin turning over documents related to the videos to a federal judge and to make as much information public as possible.

The legal memos written by the Bush administration's Office of Legal Counsel show a government grappling with how to wage war on terrorism in a fast-changing world. The conclusion, reiterated in page after page of documents, was that the president had broad authority to set aside constitutional rights.

Fourth Amendment protections against unwarranted search and seizure, for instance, did not apply in the United States as long as the president was combatting terrorism, the Justice Department said in an Oct. 23, 2001, memo.

"First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully," Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo wrote, adding later: "The current campaign against terrorism may require even broader exercises of federal power domestically."

On Sept. 25, 2001, Yoo discussed possible changes to the laws governing wiretaps for intelligence gathering. In that memo, he said the government's interest in keeping the nation safe following the terrorist attacks might justify warrantless searches.

That memo did not specifically attempt to justify the government's warrantless wiretapping program, but it provided part of the foundation.

Yoo, now a professor at the University of California at Berkeley School of Law, did not return messages seeking comment.

The memos reflected a belief within the Bush administration that the president had broad powers that could not be checked by Congress or the courts. That stance, in one form or another, became the foundation for many policies: holding detainees at Guantanamo Bay, eavesdropping on U.S. citizens without warrants, using tough new CIA interrogation tactics and locking U.S. citizens in military brigs without charges.

Obama has pledged to close the Guantanamo Bay prison within a year. He halted the CIA's intensive interrogation program. And last week, prosecutors moved the terrorism case against U.S. resident Ali Al-Marri, a suspected al-Qaida sleeper agent held in a military brig, to a civilian courthouse.

Full story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090303/...e/terror_memos

Got to love how some liberals are so fiercely concerned over the rights of vicious murdering religious zealots.

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it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:00 PM
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man...this guys a genius!!!

He's probably got cousins at Guantanamo and wants them treated fairly, just like his nice Aunt....

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:17 PM
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I remember and saw the handiwork of a vicious murdering religious zealot first hand. This man's name was Timothy McVeigh. I lived in Oklahoma on April 19, 1995 when he exploded his truck bomb and killed 168 people in the Murrah Federal Building. This act of violence should teach us one thing. Religious and political zealots don't all have brown skin or reside in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:21 PM
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IMO Obama is going to learn a hard lesson about really bad guys in the world and what they'll do. As a result he'll either eventually repeat the same policies that bush did, or will find himself boxed into a corner on what he can do by what he has said in the past. You can't negotiate with terrorists. They'll take whatever you offer them and then attack you anyway.

At any rate he's an inexperienced novice playing a deadly serious game of poker on the world stage, and I expect him to get a "call" at any time.
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:32 PM
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You should be careful what you wish for. In wanting the rights of people who you don't agree with stripped because under the rules President Bush's administration adopted you could have just as easily been arrested in this country by the military and squirreled away to a secret CIA in eastern Europe or Syria to be tortured. I know it would not have happened to you though because you are a good, loyal, law abiding, probably white American.
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by madformx5 View Post
You should be careful what you wish for. In wanting the rights of people who you don't agree with stripped because under the rules President Bush's administration adopted you could have just as easily been arrested in this country by the military and squirreled away to a secret CIA in eastern Europe or Syria to be tortured. I know it would not have happened to you though because you are a good, loyal, law abiding, probably white American.
War is a dirty business, involving dirty people, eh? What about the rights of the 3000 people killed in 9/11?

And there has not been another attack since 9/11, although there have been many attempts. Sometimes you have to use dirty tactics to get the intelligence you need to fight terrorism. When you are dealing with people that will strap a suicide bomb onto a child to promote their cause - how would you propose to interrogate them? Give them a cigarette, some coffee, and a writing tablet?

I hear what you are saying (communist control tactics), but think about the bigger picture. So they waterboarded some people in gitmo to get what they needed. How many US lives were saved by them doing this?
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:55 PM
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President Obama will only follow in President Bush's foot steps if he is stupid because President Bush and top members of his administration will be lucky if in the end they are not charged with War Crimes. They might not ever go to jail but if they are ever charged they will never again be able to leave the United States. Current and future administrations in this or any other country cannot give them save haven because if they do then they can also be charged with War Crimes. The soldiers and CIA operatives did not operate in a vacuum. The Government of the United States has supported War Crimes charges being brought up on many foreign governments and their leaders now we have to practice what we have preached if we are to restore ourselves to the greatness we once but had no longer have.
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:07 PM
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Ahhhhh. This is reminiscent of the old Clinton diversion tactics. Remember when Clinton bombed Sudan the same day Monica Lewinsky took the stand regarding their inappropriate relationship?

When you want to divert attention away from:
  1. Bombing Economy
  2. New Attorney General Eric "Pardongate" Holder announces that we are a "nation of cowards"
  3. Bad cabinet member choices coming and going like a revolving door
  4. Writing the largest payoff check ever written to political cronies disguised as "economic stimulus"
  5. Growing disapproval over health care reform
  6. The new vp proves the new presidential faction knows squat about the stimulus bill they just signed by announcing he didn't know what the website number was
  7. Conservatives recently hold rally with Rush Limbaugh that gets a lot of positive attention
  8. Details of Pork Spending in our new government continue to unearth

all you have to do is make yourself try to make yourself look better than the last guy.

When will the new faction in the White House realize that continuing to bash the last guy is not going to fix what is going on right now?
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:19 PM
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My father was awarded a Bronze Star with a Valor Commendation while spending twelve months in Vietnam and twenty-two years in the Air Force. I was raised on or lived by military bases until I was twenty-three years old. I would never insinuate that you are a communist or anything else because I did not agree with you morally, ethically, or politically. My father was defending your right to have your thoughts even if we are both diametrically oppose to them.

For every terrorists suspect that is tortured at least one hundred more are created. Just like pulling a seeding dandelion you might enough of the root to keep the one weed from growing back but in the process you release hundreds of seeds. Studies have shown that the best intelligence is garnered by treating suspects humanely because then their negative stereotypes are not re-enforced. When a suspect is tortured he will say anything he thinks will get the torture stopped and most of the time it is not the truth. If the torture is really working so well why is Osama bin Laden still alive and walking the earth. Surely we could have tortured his where abouts out of someone.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:28 PM
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My father was awarded a Bronze Star with a Valor Commendation while spending twelve months in Vietnam and twenty-two years in the Air Force. I was raised on or lived by military bases until I was twenty-three years old. I would never insinuate that you are a communist or anything else because I did not agree with you morally, ethically, or politically. My father was defending your right to have your thoughts even if we are both diametrically oppose to them.

For every terrorists suspect that is tortured at least one hundred more are created. Just like pulling a seeding dandelion you might enough of the root to keep the one weed from growing back but in the process you release hundreds of seeds. Studies have shown that the best intelligence is garnered by treating suspects humanely because then their negative stereotypes are not re-enforced. When a suspect is tortured he will say anything he thinks will get the torture stopped and most of the time it is not the truth. If the torture is really working so well why is Osama bin Laden still alive and walking the earth. Surely we could have tortured his where abouts out of someone.
What torture studies are you speaking of? Did they originate from a liberal campus?
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:32 PM
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Interesting idea..... You know what? Next time they have one of my brothers captured, I'm sure they'll ask to be treated humanely and the terrorists will take them out for coffee. They are POW's. Do whatever it takes to get information. Hell, some of the stuff liberals call torture, I call hazing. I went through more BS in basic and to rush for my fraternity
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:53 PM
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The "last guy" as you put it caused about ninety percent of the problems we have.

People like you who accused President Clinton of Wagging the Dog probably costs us the best chance to stop 9/11 becuase he then hesitated to pull the trigger when he had excellent intellence about Osama bin Laden's whereabouts. The only other chance whe had to get bin Laden was squandered by President Bush at Tora Bora in the late fall of 2001 did not insert any ground troops other than special forces. Bin Laden was able to bribe his way thru the Mujahideen and made his way to the tribal areas of Pakistan where he resides today.

We can take down the economic stimulus but I want you to be the first person to move to a Hooverville when the economy slips into a depression. The Republicans are against the stimulus unless it benefits something or someone that they care about. How much are you willing to spend bailing the Wall Street banks who started this economic tailspin out? AIG is already asking for more money.

Just incase you don't know what a Hooverville is I will tell you. At the start of the Great Depression President Hoover then and over the next three plus years refused to use the federal government to stimulate the economy. At the height of the Great Depression close to twenty-five percent of the people in this country were out of work and being force out of their homes by banks trying to conserve cash by calling in the loans on many homes. Back then the banks could call in a mortage for imediate repayment and if the home owner could not pay off their mortage then the bank seized their house. Hooverville is what peopled named the shanty towns that sprung up as a result of President Hoovers failed economic policies.
Like is said since you are so sure that the economic stimulus is wrong I thing you should be the first person to find his new home there.
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:58 PM
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These are not the days of the Old Testiment. If we follow your logic maybe we should have all of the terror suspects run off of a cliff and then you can follow them. That way you will be doing same thing they are.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 12:04 AM
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Well thankfully the studies did not come from the same President Bush got the lawyers for his administration. That would be scholarly institution know as Liberty University. Christianity's version of a Pakistani madrassa.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 12:11 AM
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President Obama is not taking the BS way out and hiding a big chunk of his spending in supplementails like his predecessor. Under President Clinton unemployment was two percent, gas for our Mustangs was a dollar a gallon and we had a budget surplus. Imagine that!
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 12:21 AM
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Maybe Rush Limbaugh (who btw if he were poor and black would be in prision after being convicted on drug charges. The same applies to Cindy McCain.) did not get such good press because he misquoted the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Of course like the people in President Bush's administration he probably has never read either document.
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 04:22 AM
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President Obama is not taking the BS way out and hiding a big chunk of his spending in supplementails like his predecessor. Under President Clinton unemployment was two percent, gas for our Mustangs was a dollar a gallon and we had a budget surplus. Imagine that!
I don't have the time to dispute all your BS, so we'll just start with you showing us where Slick Willie had a 2% unemployment rate. You've lost all credibility, and after only 10 posts'. I'm certain that's some kind of record for this board...

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 06:16 AM
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Nine posts Vert. He must have deleted one.

And you're correct., it's almost tragic to have destroyed any semblance of credibility that quickly, as it took only about four for me to start skipping what he had to type...
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by madformx5 View Post

For every terrorists suspect that is tortured at least one hundred more are created. Just like pulling a seeding dandelion you might enough of the root to keep the one weed from growing back but in the process you release hundreds of seeds. Studies have shown that the best intelligence is garnered by treating suspects humanely because then their negative stereotypes are not re-enforced. When a suspect is tortured he will say anything he thinks will get the torture stopped and most of the time it is not the truth. If the torture is really working so well why is Osama bin Laden still alive and walking the earth. Surely we could have tortured his where abouts out of someone.
I don't really think you understand the enemy we're dealing with. They're not common, rational people like you or I. They're fanatical. They're crazy. The first line of your post is a scare tactic. Terrorists aren't created or trained or brainwashed because we're interrogating others. They are created and trained and brainwashed because they hate the West. They hate our freedom and our style of life. They are recruiting more to build their force so that they can eventually mount up another attack. Treating them humanely and with dignity and respect will not help us gather inteligence from them. They might be fanatical, but they aren't stupid; at least not the ones calling the shots.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:17 AM
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My father was awarded a Bronze Star with a Valor Commendation while spending twelve months in Vietnam and twenty-two years in the Air Force. I was raised on or lived by military bases until I was twenty-three years old.
If this much is true, I bet he is severely disappointed in you. It mush be disheartening to be an American war hero and have a Jane Fonda as a son.

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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:28 AM
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What a misinformed lunatic. I'm sorry that you wasted your years defending a country that you do not love. I hope you get everything you deserve from the Obama administration. Go re-read your Hoovervilles post.

This is a capitalist society, one that thrives based on the hard working citizens that grow industry. The fact is, Republicans failed this country by refusing to allow capitalism to work properly. Democrats are doing the same thing, but at a faster and more dangerous pace.

By removing incentives to work, by removing incentives for expanding industry, and by giving all tax revenues back to people that do not pay in through an entitlement system, we have degraded this country to nearly nothing. We do not produce, we are dumb, we are lazy, we feel we are entitled to prosperity without earning it. Give Obama three years and ten more months, we will hit bottom. Promise.
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:29 AM
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If this much is true, I bet he is severely disappointed in you. It mush be disheartening to be an American war hero and have a Jane Fonda as a son.

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I love how he uses his dad's service to our country, to give his radical comments and views, validity and credibility...

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:54 AM
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all the madformx comments aside, isn't there some common courtesy from one administration to the next? So Obama wants to do things different - what's the point in releasing these secret Bush Memos? Can't wait to read Obama's secret memos when he leaves office.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 12:09 PM
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I love how he uses his dad's service to our country, to give his radical comments and views, validity and credibility...
Since he drug his dad's service into this argument, it does seem that the son's radical statements dishonors his dad's service. I'm sure that dad is proud.

Looking at the world thru rose tinted glasses does not change the world, it only changes your view of it. Sure, it would be a great world if we could all sit down and pick daises and be BFF forever, but in the real world there are people whose stated purpose in life is to kill me, kill you, and the kill the rest of western civilization. We are "infidels". There is no other definition to them.

These people are savages since they refuse to live by the rules of civilized society. Sometimes the ends justifies the means. And the ends are the continuation of western life as we know it. If we lose, he's a dead man.
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 01:17 PM
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all the madformx comments aside, isn't there some common courtesy from one administration to the next? So Obama wants to do things different - what's the point in releasing these secret Bush Memos? Can't wait to read Obama's secret memos when he leaves office.
Usually a person with common courtesy and decency would not do what the Messiah did. I guess that says alot about him doesn't it?

I hope Blagoidiot's book fronts Obama for all the weak stuff he did and Blagoidiot leaves a scorched earth in his wake.

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 02:06 PM
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Usually a person with common courtesy and decency would not do what the Messiah did. I guess that says alot about him doesn't it?

I hope Blagoidiot's book fronts Obama for all the weak stuff he did and Blagoidiot leaves a scorched earth in his wake.
Since he was impeached, I'll bet that little sleazy bastard throws the whole lot under the bus. He's no dumbass, and we know he worships the "almighty buck".
Hell, I'll buy the book, and I don't even like the little scumbag!

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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 02:18 PM
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Since he was impeached, I'll bet that little sleazy bastard throws the whole lot under the bus. He's no dumbass, and we know he worships the "almighty buck".
Hell, I'll buy the book, and I don't even like the little scumbag!
I have a feeling that he will not be convicted, that his book will not have any real dirt on the Messiah (unless he does get convicted), and he is just using this as a direct signal to the Messiah to intervene and make sure he doesn't get any jail time.

How is that for some wild conspiracy theory stuff?

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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 02:18 PM
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Very interesting.

Unemployment rate when Bush 1 left office: 7.4%
Unemployment rate when Bush 2 left office: 7.2%

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 12:23 AM
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You are wrong in the idea that they hate us for our freedoms. They hate us for the things we are doing today and the things we have done in the past. For many years we have propped up or installed brutal regimes all in the name of an easy uninterrupted supply of oil. The Saudi Royal family and the Shah of Iran are a current and a former example of our short sighted policies in the Middle East. Another reason many people in the Middle East are against us is our blind support of Israel who has at least a 100 to one kill ratio with any of the terrorists organization, which they fight.

Many of you arm chair quarterbacks are quick to assume that I do not support the military or our troops. That is the furthest thing from the truth. I know what fighting does to a soldier because I have had a father who for forty-two years ago fought in a war and has never talked about it at any length longer than one or two sentences that have to be pried out of him and has never been the same person since he came back. After being in combat no soldier is ever the same again.

Many of you have questioned my patriotism and whether my father is proud of me. I am old enough to remember the Vietnam War and the anti-war protesters. I can remember ever at the age of eight or nine being aware of the protesters who were protesting the soldiers and thinking how wrong they were to protest again people who do not have a choice if and when they are ordered to fight in a war. Soldiers who refuse to fight will find themselves spending a lot of their free time in the state of Kansas. The protest against the war I and I am sure my father would fully support. I have heard him say he was over there fighting to protect a citizen’s right to protest against our government.

It is obvious that all of the posters are knee-jerk reactionaries. If all of you are so supportive of President Bush's attempts to fight the "War on Terror" and are so much Patriotic than the rest of us, then why have you and yours not over in Iraq fighting?

Afghanistan and Pakistan are a different story than Iraq. I do not believe the Taliban or Al-Qaeda should be allowed to exist. Many or most of the people in both of these groups will have to be killed or captured. The US Army and the Marines should be allowed to kick ass and take names there. Having said that I also think the military has to stay inside the bounds of moral, ethical, and legal conduct. If they are allowed to stray then they and by extension us are not any better than the terrorists we are claiming to have moral superiority over. An addendum to this is the fact when we do this we are then leaving legal justification for our soldier to torture. Ask John McCain how fun it is to be tortured. We have to be better than the evil we are fighting to defeat it and so far in our “War on Terror,” we have not been.

One of the things unlike most of the rest of the post that I have not done is personally disparage President Bush. I have not done this because I believe that the office of the President is bigger than the person who happens to occupy it. I did not do it when he was in office and I still do not do it now that he is out. This does not mean that I believe he should be absolved of any crimes he committed while he was in office. Unlike what President Nixon and most certainly President Bush and Vice President Chaney believe just because the President does it does not make it legal. It is too bad that the supporters past three Republican Presidents will not treat the office with the respect it deserves even if they do not politically agree with the person occupying it. In this thread I have seem President Obama called the Messiah and President Clinton called Slick Willie.

Paladin if the release of documents is uncovering evidence of corruption then I am all for shinning the light even if it is against President Obama. He is not my Messiah. I did not vote for him in the Primaries but just like President Bush I support him as my President. I did not however support the fear mongering President Bush and his administration engaged in or the dark path it has led this country down. As far as the former governor of Illinois is concerned I do not care about him or his book. He is a corrupt politician who should if convicted go to jail. If any evidence can be found linking anyone in President Obama’s administration to any wrong doing concerning the governor I am sure unlike with President Bush, Republicans will be clamoring to impeach him. Many of the things that forced President Nixon to resign before he was impeached are the same things President Bush and his administration are suspected of doing. Unlike President Nixon though his administration was smart enough to destroy and obstruct enough of the evidence to guarantee that it did not happen.
Vertnut just the idea that you would even think about buying the former governor’s book tells me all that I need to know about you.

46tbird you are misinformed. It was my father who served our country and neither one of us as you put it, “hate it.” I was just a kid getting moved all over the United States and Europe. If you are so in love with countries who don’t allow dissent then maybe you should move to China or Russia. I here Russia is really cracking down on it these days. Capitalism was allowed to work in the last eight years. The problem is it was allowed to work immorally, unethically, and virtually unchecked. I am a hard worker and I have seen many hard workers. I am sorry that the American worker does not meet your high standards. Maybe a more few more of us would still be work if our benevolent capitalists had not shipping our jobs to countries with cheaper labor for the last thirty years. The only way the standard of living has been maintained in our country for the last thirty years is that we have supported our families with two incomes. When two income families came up short we started using credit. Now the house of cards is falling down because many people are loosing their jobs and their credit is maxed out.

To me it sounds like you guys and the Republican Party are a bunch of sore losers. Just like when President Clinton was elected you guys cannot stand when you loose. Remember after eight years of investigations and fifty million tax payer dollars the only thing the Republicans could get to stick to President Clinton was that he lied about getting a blowjob. I bet that would not have been true if President Bush and his administration had been investigated with the same fervor by the Republicans.
madformx5 is offline  
post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:48 AM
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It is obvious that all of the posters are knee-jerk reactionaries. If all of you are so supportive of President Bush's attempts to fight the "War on Terror" and are so much Patriotic than the rest of us, then why have you and yours not over in Iraq fighting?
DFWStangs has had it's share of representation since day one. Seven members that I can think of, three or four over here right now. Both in civilian and military capacity. I'm glad that all the knee-jerk posters aren't out here too. They play a major role in supporting us from the homefront... and keeping trolls like you in check.

You are just about one of the most misinformed person I've seen in a while and I've seen some doozies on here, let me tell ya.
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post #31 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:15 AM
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DFWStangs has had it's share of representation since day one. Seven members that I can think of, three or four over here right now. Both in civilian and military capacity. I'm glad that all the knee-jerk posters aren't out here too. They play a major role in supporting us from the homefront... and keeping trolls like you in check.

You are just about one of the most misinformed person I've seen in a while and I've seen some doozies on here, let me tell ya.
Gpamp, reincarnated!
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