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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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Obama'a starting point?

Several people have raised the question of when will Obama be responsible for 'everything'. These same people want to mention that a lot of Americans blame everything on Bush and date the 'blame' to Jan 2001. I would agree that it is only fair then that we grade Obama on the same basis starting on Jan 20th 2009.

So that begs the discussion of what do we judge him on. I like 'measureables', for example unemployment numbers, Dow Jones, Nasdaq, GDP in economics. That being said would it be reasonable to take the Jan numbers for those and compare them a monthly/yearly intervals to judge his performance?

How do you judge National Security? Fiscal Policy?

What other items could you quantify?
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 06:29 PM
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About 5 seconds after McCain's concession speech, which is when Bush became a lame duck.

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 11:25 PM
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I don't necessarily blame new presidents for negative issues that happen at first, rather than how they address the issues and take measures for it not happening again. Then again, I don't praise new presidents for any positive incidents that immediately happen.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 12:43 PM
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Easy...
Anything good that trickles down will be blessed as Obama's doing, anything bad that happens in the next term will be blamed on the remnants of Bush.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 02:13 PM
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Easy...
Anything good that trickles down will be blessed as Obama's doing, anything bad that happens in the next term will be blamed on the remnants of Bush.
That's gonna be how it is for the first 2 years, guaranteed.

I find it funny how in 2001, people were blaming Bush for the economy then, when it was starting to degrade under Clinton in 2000. People will still be blaming Bush for economy thru 2010, IMO.

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 03:03 PM
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Pretty much whatever happens good in the next 4 yrs will be because of him.. everything bad will be left over from Bush. That is what the general population and the media will do.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-18-2009, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 1fastdem View Post
Several people have raised the question of when will Obama be responsible for 'everything'. These same people want to mention that a lot of Americans blame everything on Bush and date the 'blame' to Jan 2001. I would agree that it is only fair then that we grade Obama on the same basis starting on Jan 20th 2009.
I think Jan. 21st it is all Obamas responsibility for the reasons you state. Bush now gets no credit from his critics for keeping us safe for 7 years, but was completely responsible for all the mistakes his predecessor made that led up to the bombing on 9/11. Whats good for Bush is good for obama IMO.

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So that begs the discussion of what do we judge him on. I like 'measureables', for example unemployment numbers
How about he be held to the same standard Bush was given by the far left. Bush got no credit for having record low unemployment soon after 9/11 and is completely to blame for all the unemployment now. I blame all of congress for allowing sub-prme mortgages and easy credit to go unchecked.

Now with all that said, I would say if he has sustained under 5% by the end of his term he has been successful in this area.

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Dow Jones, Nasdaq, GDP in economics.
How about 12500 for the DOW, Nasdaq over 3000 and the GDP to be what it was on Jan 1, 2006 for Bush?

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That being said would it be reasonable to take the Jan numbers for those and compare them a monthly/yearly intervals to judge his performance?
Nope, he should not get credit for beginning at such low numbers since it happened while the Dems controlled congress. It was everyones fault. Hell, how can he NOT have better numbers than what he will have on Jan 21st? He will have a Democratically controlled Congress and wide discretion to do what he wants. If he doesn't make huge numbers he will be called a failure by most IMO.

How about he have to have similar numbers to what Clinton or Bush did at the end of their first term for it to be called a success

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How do you judge National Security?
This is easy. He must not have any attacks on our soil. Period!

He must also make sure he does not release any bad guys from Gitmo that come back and commit more crimes against us. It happened to Bush and he was only releasing them becuase the Dems demanded it. If he does it it will be by choice, not force.

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Fiscal Policy??
If he raises taxes and does not lower the deficit significantly he will be considered a complete failure IMO.

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What other items could you quantify?
How about "what ifs"? Like what if he pulls out of Iraq and we have to go back? Is that all his fault? What if Iran goes nuclear because his negotiations fail and Israel decides to attack, thousands are killed in a war or a nuclear weapon is used by one side? There are a bunch more, but this will get it started.

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
 
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I think....
Didn't want to take a ton of space quoting the whole thing...

I think I agree with most of what you said except a few points...

1. I dont completely agree with the gov failing on the sub-prime mess. Mortgage co. wrote loans they could sell and no one forced the hedge funds and Bank of America's of the world to buy the mortgage securities. The gov pushed Fannie and Freddie to make poor loans but not the Countrywides.

2. Deficit - I have stated on here I am okay with increasing deficits in times of recession but if we are sound economicly we should be working to reduce the deficit to 40% of the GDP. So I would agree with the deficit reduction part assuming we are coming out of this downturn in 2 years.

3. Iraq - I don't think ALL our forces will be out in 4 years. But if we have to massively redeploy to end a 'civil war' that would be a failure of both Bush and Obama. That said I think the Sadr's of Iraq are waiting for us to leave and I believe his fingerprints were all over the withdrawal deal the US just reached with Iraq.

4. Iran - What do you think should be done? The quick answer is to say 'wipe it from the map' Outside of Israel, that does not seem to be an option for any government. And any attack from us only strengthens the parties in Iran that use our image to further their own goals.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 1fastdem View Post
I think I agree with most of what you said except a few points...

I will also not quote all of you post and just respond by number.
1. We can just agree to disagree but my conservative brain tells me that the government asked/required businesses to approve loans to help stimulate the economy (artifically IMO) and that bubble caused this mess. No Republican or Democrat stopped it, so I blame government. Maybe if we can find some conservative who isn't a complete loon (like RP) we can end this crap and have some true conservative values, not Republican or Democrat.

2. Fair enough

3. You are dragging Bush into a decision that obama is making in my scenario. If Obama decides to pull out troops and then has to redeploy it will be squarely on his shoulders. Obama should keep troops there in large enough numbers to keeep the peace and not have to go back IMO. He asked for the job and he gets the reponsibility for any decision he makes while in office. Please let Bush off the hook like the liberals did with Clinton for 9/11, it is only fair.

4. This is easy, Iran should not be allowed to ever get a nuclear weapon. The security of the USA, the region, and frankly the whole world depends upon it IMO. If Iran gets a nuclear weapon while Obama is in office he will go down as weaker than Carter for allowiong a few students to hold our country hostage like he did. You could not negotiate with the hostage takers just like you can not negotiate with ArmenIamanidiot or any other Islamic/Persian extremist.

Why do you and so many other care what the people in Iran (or any other middle east country) think of us? If we attack them it is because we have to. What could we possibly do to impress them enough that they will stop hating us? These are people who have been killing each other for centuries and we are going to pacify them somehow in a few years? How do you make a person who is willing to commit a homicide bombing and kill womeon, children, other Muslims/Persians to negotiate in good faith and trust that they will keep their word?

I use this little analogy to press home my point: How do you negotiate with someone who is trying to come into your house and kill your family? The Islamic extremists would kill you and your family if given the chance. The answer: you kill them first. Period! Why is this so hard for some to understand?

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 03:55 PM
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Maybe if we can find some conservative who isn't a complete loon (like RP) we can end this crap and have some true conservative values, not Republican or Democrat.

d:
I think at this point a lot of people had wished they voted for Ron Paul. He would be perfect to end the BS that caused this recession. If the ballot had been Obama or Paul...who would you have voted for?
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 03:57 PM
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I think at this point a lot of people had wished they voted for Ron Paul. He would be perfect to end the BS that caused this recession. If the ballot had been Obama or Paul...who would you have voted for?
Paul. But that proves nothing. I would have voted for Linda Lovelace instead of Barry...and she probably would have gotten closer to the candidacy, too.

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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:00 PM
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I think at this point a lot of people had wished they voted for Ron Paul. He would be perfect to end the BS that caused this recession. If the ballot had been Obama or Paul...who would you have voted for?
I have already stated (many times despite what gpamp and black01gt claim) that any of the original 7 or so Republicans would have been better than any of the Dems IMO. RP was at the bottom of my list of Republicans because of his monetary and foreign policy stances. He is too extreme and "head in the sand" with them IMO. This is all old territory, so I doubt I will go much further with any RP discussions.

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:00 PM
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Paul. But that proves nothing. I would have voted for Linda Lovelace instead of Barry...and she probably would have gotten closer to the candidacy, too.
Nice!

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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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3. You are dragging Bush into a decision that obama is making in my scenario. If Obama decides to pull out troops and then has to redeploy it will be squarely on his shoulders. Obama should keep troops there in large enough numbers to keeep the peace and not have to go back IMO. He asked for the job and he gets the reponsibility for any decision he makes while in office. Please let Bush off the hook like the liberals did with Clinton for 9/11, it is only fair.

Why do you and so many other care what the people in Iran (or any other middle east country) think of us? If we attack them it is because we have to. What could we possibly do to impress them enough that they will stop hating us?

On #3 I think we actually agree for the most part. Some troop level will have be stationed there for some time. And failure at this point by Obama would be to draw down the troop levels to a point where Iraq explodes and we have to do a new 'surge'

on #4 I can only speak for me. I care what the region thinks about us is that unless you kill them all then you only create more fanatics. There is no way that the USA or even Israel would exterminate every person in the middle east. That is what it would take. (Remember we are dealing with a country in Iran that in the Iran/Iraq war that sent young men to the front armed only with a Koran. They sent these men against Iraqi positions and took those positions.)
So now we are left with the decision of what to do. IMO we need to use a two-prong strategy of offering aid/willingness to negotiate on one hand and targeted killing of 'terrorists' on the other. (Kind of like how I would describe Israel/Mossad's strategy) Carrot and the stick. I also think this strategy has been supported in Iraq. (I won't say proved in Iraq.) The Awakening (Or whatever you want to call it) happened when the tribal leaders saw it was in their best interest to work with us. I don't know if every tribal leader likes or hates us deep down. All I know is that they realize it is better to work with us. That is why it is important what others think.
Also I don't particularly care about world opinion in the way alot of dems do. I care about world opinion in so much that we can use that opinion to shape world events to our benefit.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:08 PM
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I have already stated (many times despite what gpamp and black01gt claim) that any of the original 7 or so Republicans would have been better than any of the Dems IMO. RP was at the bottom of my list of Republicans because of his monetary and foreign policy stances. He is too extreme and "head in the sand" with them IMO. This is all old territory, so I doubt I will go much further with any RP discussions.
Ron Paul was more of a conservative than any of the other Republicans who ran. But I agree, that's enough said about RP. I am pleased to see you acknowledge the difference between a Republican and a conservative. Frequently, those 2 terms don't go together nowadays.
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:15 PM
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Ron Paul was more of a conservative than any of the other Republicans who ran. But I agree, that's enough said about RP. I am pleased to see you acknowledge the difference between a Republican and a conservative. Frequently, those 2 terms don't go together nowadays.
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:26 PM
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Ron Paul was more of a conservative than any of the other Republicans who ran. But I agree, that's enough said about RP. I am pleased to see you acknowledge the difference between a Republican and a conservative. Frequently, those 2 terms don't go together nowadays.
I was a liberal and then a Democrat, then I went to being Republican and now I am a conservative. I am also a traditionalist. I couldn't care what party a conservative claims, I just want the conservative views.

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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 04:29 PM
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I couldn't care what party a conservative claims, I just want the conservative views.
Preach on brother...the choir is listening.
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
 
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I was a liberal and then a Democrat, then I went to being Republican and now I am a conservative. I am also a traditionalist. I couldn't care what party a conservative claims, I just want the conservative views.
You know what they say...

If your not liberal at 20 you don't have a heart.
If your not conservative at 50 you don't have a brain.
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-19-2009, 08:29 PM
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You know what they say...

If your not liberal at 20 you don't have a heart.
If your not conservative at 50 you don't have a brain.
I'm 44 and became conservative at 35 or earlier. How old are you?

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
 
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I'm 44 and became conservative at 35 or earlier. How old are you?
37.

I appreciate the interest, but I am straight. (Dry humor is so hard to pull off on line.)
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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 08:26 AM
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37.

I appreciate the interest, but I am straight. (Dry humor is so hard to pull off on line.)

I was wondering why you chose 50 as the age to be conservative. I usually use 30. BTW, I would never be interested in a 37 year old male or female if they were a liberal so no offense taken.

Will you have to be 50 to see the light or is it already in view?

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 08:49 AM Thread Starter
 
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I was wondering why you chose 50 as the age to be conservative. I usually use 30. BTW, I would never be interested in a 37 year old male or female if they were a liberal so no offense taken.

Will you have to be 50 to see the light or is it already in view?
I guess we will all have to wait and see. But I have never been accused of being real smart...
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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 08:54 AM
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I don't have a bunch of time right now to type this out on why I think this but starting Jan 20th for the Stock markets to blame or praise Obama is ridiculous...

He's catching a down swing from the past few weeks, he's had influence over policy etc while Bush was still in office etc etc among other things. You can't just pinpoint today for a starting point for him on the economy only.
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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 11:54 AM
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I guess we will all have to wait and see. But I have never been accused of being real smart...
LOL, I sure won't throw any stones when it comes to that. LOL

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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