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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
Lifer
 
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How will he pay for it...

if he doesn't raise taxes and go back on his promise to cut taxes for 95% of Americans? I really would like to hear the Obama nuthuggers opinions on this.

Obama looking at $850 billion jolt to the economy

By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer Jim Kuhnhenn, Associated Press Writer – 41 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Eager to jolt a worsening economy back to life, President-elect Barack Obama's aides are assembling a two-year stimulus package that could cost $850 billion, dwarfing last spring's tax rebates and rivaling drastic government actions to fight the Great Depression.
The emerging plan is blend of new jobs, middle-class tax relief and expanded aid for the poor and the unemployed, congressional officials said Wednesday.

Obama has not settled on a grand total, and the final figure could be smaller. But after consulting with outside economists of all political stripes, his advisers have begun telling Congress the stimulus should be bigger than the $600 billion initially envisioned, the officials said.

Obama is promoting a recovery plan that would feature spending on roads and other infrastructure projects, energy-efficient government buildings, new and renovated schools and environmentally friendly technologies.

There would also be some form of tax relief, according to the Obama team, which is well aware of the political difficulty of pushing such a large package through Congress, even in a time of recession. Any tax cuts would be aimed at middle- and lower-income taxpayers, and aides have said there would be no tax increases for wealthy Americans.

While some economists consulted by Obama's team recommended spending of up to $1 trillion over two years, a more likely figure seems to be $850 billion. There is concern that a package that looks too large could worry financial markets, and the incoming economic team also wants to signal fiscal restraint.

In addition to spending on roads, bridges and similar construction projects, Obama is expected to seek additional funds for numerous programs that experience increased demand when joblessness rises, one Democratic official said.

Among those programs are food stamps and other nutrition programs, health insurance, unemployment insurance and job training programs.

Obama advisers, including Christina Romer and Lawrence Summers, have been contacting economists from across the political spectrum in search of advice as they assemble a spending plan that would meet Obama's goal of preserving or creating 2.5 million jobs over two years.

Among those whose opinions Obama sought were Lawrence B. Lindsey, a top economic adviser to President George W. Bush during his first term, and Harvard professor Martin Feldstein, an informal adviser to John McCain and the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Ronald Reagan.

Feldstein recommended a $400 billion investment in one year, Obama aides said, and Lindsey said the package should be in the range of $800 billion to $1 trillion. The aides revealed the discussions on condition of anonymity because no decisions had been reached.

"I do recommend $400 billion in year one and expect a similar amount in year two," Feldstein said in an e-mail. "The right amount depends on how it is used."

Lindsey could not be reached.

Obama aides also pointed to recommendations by Mark Zandi, the lead economist at Moody's Economy.com and an informal McCain adviser who has been proposing a $600 billion plan.

"I would err on the side of making it larger than making it smaller," Zandi said in an interview. "The size of the plan depends on the forecast — the economic outlook — and that is darkening by the day."

"Even a trillion is not inconceivable," he said.[B]


Only one outside economist contacted by Obama aides, Harvard's Greg Mankiw, who served on Bush's Council of Economic Advisers, voiced skepticism about the need for an economic stimulus, transition officials said.

The advisers say they agree with economic forecasts that predict that without a government infusion unemployment will rise above 9 percent and not begin to come down until 2011.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Wednesday that Obama has indicated that Congress will get his recovery recommendations by the first of the year.

"He's going to get that to us very quickly and so we would hope within the first 10 days to two weeks that he's in office, that is after Jan. 20, that we could pass the stimulus plan," Reid said. "We want to do it very quickly."

In a letter to Peter Orszag, Obama's choice to be White House budget chief, Reid asked, among other things, that the stimulus package include tax relief for middle-class families, including a reduction in rates and an extension of the child tax credit.

Obama's aides have said they hope to work with Republicans in writing the bill, particularly in the Senate, where the GOP could slow action if it chooses. This week, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Democrats were preparing their own recovery bill in the range of $600 billion, blending immediate steps to counter the slumping economy with longer-term federal spending that encompasses Obama's plan.

A stimulus package that approaches $1 trillion could run into significant Republican opposition in Congress. It also could cause heartburn for moderate and conservative Democratic lawmakers, known as Blue Dogs, who oppose large budget deficits.

"Republicans want to work with the president-elect to help get our economy on the path to recovery, but we have grave reservations about taking $1 trillion from struggling taxpayers and spending it on government programs in the name of economic 'stimulus,'" House Republican leader John Boehner said in a statement.

In February, Congress passed an economic stimulus bill costing $168 billion and featuring $600 tax rebates for most individual taxpayers and tax breaks for businesses. Pelosi largely bowed to Bush's insistence to keep the measure free of spending on federal projects.

The upcoming effort would dwarf that earlier measure as well as a $61 billion stimulus bill the House passed just before adjourning for the elections. That measure died after a Bush veto threat and GOP opposition in the Senate.

___

Associated Press writers David Espo and Erica Werner contributed to this report.

Holy crap, Obama may actually try and pay peoples mortgages!

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:04 PM
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I see tax increases on the top 99% of Americans.

We're standing in a hole that is 5,000ft deep, what's another 20,000ft?

Maybe we'll luck out and he'll hit oil as he digs us in deeper

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:09 PM
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Any tax cuts would be aimed at middle- and lower-income taxpayers, and aides have said there would be no tax increases for wealthy Americans.


wonder where I fall in that category. I wish they would just come out and say "if you're a family of 4 making x amount of dollars - you're not geting shit - as a matter of fact we will tax you into oblivion. At least you'd know where you stand.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:40 PM
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Okay, no new taxes and tax cuts for the poor....so the money comes from where?
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:48 PM
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Not Paying For The War!?

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This will help everyone out, check it.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forever_frost
Okay, no new taxes and tax cuts for the poor....so the money comes from where?
Angel farts, puppy dog kisses, champagne wishes and caviar dreams are cited by the Obama administration as the tools they will use to pay for everything.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forever_frost
Okay, no new taxes and tax cuts for the poor....so the money comes from where?
ask the fed, they know the trick!

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:51 PM
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Oh wait, maybe that was a typically liberal (logical) response...

After combat operations stop overseas, namely iraq, there's gonna be ton of unused capital to use wherever he likes.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashonthebeach
ask the fed, they know the trick!


Print dat shit!

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Not Paying For The War!?
So magically, come January 20, the war ends along with every cent that goes to Iraq? Oh wait...we still have a massive war in Afghanistan which is about to get even more troops. Same war, new location.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forever_frost
So magically, come January 20, the war ends along with every cent that goes to Iraq? Oh wait...we still have a massive war in Afghanistan which is about to get even more troops. Same war, new location.
No, that's a slippery slope.

What I meant to purvey is that over the next few years and beyond, not immediately, the massive amounts of cash that have been going to no-bid contracts and the like will be saved and made able to use for better, more productive processes, like jump-starting the economy and sustaining a plan to keep it on track after any and all progress is made.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt


Print dat shit!
Smells good, but after that last batch those $20s are only worth 5 Euros!

They are currently worth E13.87 each!

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 08:08 PM
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Yet the Afghanistan war is still on going. Any "savings" that may be seen by the end to operations in Iraq is going to be poured into the other field of battle.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
No, that's a slippery slope.

What I meant to purvey is that over the next few years and beyond, not immediately, the massive amounts of cash that have been going to no-bid contracts and the like will be saved and made able to use for better, more productive processes, like jump-starting the economy and sustaining a plan to keep it on track after any and all progress is made.
Do you still work at the taco stand or have you been writing propaganda for moveon.org?

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 08:19 PM
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Well, Zarathustra does have a point. I do think Obama is going to pull the troops out before the Dec 31st 2011 deadline. He may start pulling them out as soon as this summer. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

As for Afghanistan, there are only about 34000 troops there right now. It isn't even close to being on the scale that Iraq is. Obama can quadruple troop levels and still not come close. Also, the reconstruction efforts are much smaller and cost less.

I don't agree with a pullout before Dec 31st, 2011 but doing so will reduce spending.

So back to taxes. Obama is now leaning towards not letting the Bush tax cuts expire for those over $250,000. I'm still not sure I believe him on that one. I'm not sure he can prevent the Congress from repealing it. I think you'll probably see a compromise. They will probably let the cuts expire for those making $500,000 or more. I think they may even raise taxes higher for anyone making $1,000,000 or more.

Money will also come from cuts. You can bet that several military projects will be on the cutting block. The first to go will very likely be the F-22 Raptor. At the very least I think Obama will scale back the acquisition. On the plus side, they'll probably push forward with the F-35 since there are several international partners sharing the bill.

I think NASA will see cuts too. The Shuttle will probably be retired on schedule and I think Project Constellation has a high probability of being killed. I think Obama may push for funding SpaceX and the manned version of the Dragon spacecraft. That will at least give us something to ride to ISS without relying on the Russians. The good news there is that SpaceX has most of its facilities right here in Texas.

Other things I expect to see...

-Payroll taxes (social security) will no longer be cut off at $85,000. Even millionaires will be paying up.

-An increase of fees for government services across the board.

-An increase in the gasoline tax (least likely to happen because of the lack of political courage)

-Social Security retirement age will be boosted to 70 for some.

-Cuts in federally funded research

-hiring freeze on federal workers (reduce the workforce through attrition)

-downsizing some agencies and laying off of contractors (the feds have A LOT of contractors)

Those are just what come to mind right now. I'm sure they'll find other ways to nickel and dime us like New York is trying to do right now...

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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-17-2008, 11:10 PM
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just fire up the printer its no big deal

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-18-2008, 06:35 AM
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I'm not an Obama nuthugger, but Obama will get the money from the same place as the $2 trillion the government has already spent, they will borrow it from China, Russia, Japan & even the UK.

We could just print it, since the US dollar will soon be worthless anyway.
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