UAW dooms GM, bailout dies in Senate - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
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UAW dooms GM, bailout dies in Senate

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/14-bil...-13813715.html

"A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers."
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post #2 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:07 PM
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This is like jumping out of a plane thats going down and not using the parachute because it doesn't match your shoes. Some people just don't know when to give up. Screw em, I just hope I don't ever need to use the warranty on my Dodge.

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post #3 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:11 PM
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we will see what happens. Hopefully GM will bail out on the UAW. When all of those UAW guys are out of a job, they will finally realize that they were overpaid and demanded way to much from their company.

I wonder how bad stocks are going to crash tomorrow. Looks like oil will be coming back down after a little spike.

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post #4 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:12 PM
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Screw'em all, let them sink there own ship.

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post #5 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:12 PM
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What would Reagan do?

He would fire these stupid motherfuckers and replace them with people that are grateful.


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post #6 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:13 PM
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Looks like the uaw has signed their own death warrant. So be it.
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post #7 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:14 PM
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Overpaid?? how much they make to put a car together?? i thought they were all a buncha alcoholics....??
post #8 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houstondallas
Overpaid?? how much they make to put a car together?? i thought they were all a buncha alcoholics....??
Average non-skilled line worker for GM is $34/hr and over $70 with benefits

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post #9 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houstondallas
Overpaid?? how much they make to put a car together?? i thought they were all a buncha alcoholics....??
I use to be a loan officer for grand rapids, michigan. I financed many, many UAW workers and I was seeing the janitors (which sweep up shit) 1 year on the job making 24/hr.

that's about as low as it goes. Generally, an assembly worker would make 30-45/hr.
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post #10 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Average non-skilled line worker for GM is $34/hr and over $70 with benefits
Not any more.
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post #11 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:17 PM
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Not any more.
I can tell you no new union contracts have been signed since I was financing them and that's about right.
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post #12 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
Average non-skilled line worker for GM is $34/hr and over $70 with benefits
Average for the foreign automakers is around $40 including benefits/legacy costs


Gee, wonder why they profit?!?

Fuck the UAW
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post #13 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:22 PM
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Not any more.
sad thing is, many will be a drain on our US gov now and claim unemployment. Im sure they would rather claim unemployment than return to a job where they are paid a correct amount for the job skills.

My big question will be, when the companies do go bankrupt....how much are the taxpayers going to have to shell out for pensions?

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post #14 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:26 PM
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Bush and Paulson with use the Tarp money IMO

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post #15 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
sad thing is, many will be a drain on our US gov now and claim unemployment. Im sure they would rather claim unemployment than return to a job where they are paid a correct amount for the job skills.

My big question will be, when the companies do go bankrupt....how much are the taxpayers going to have to shell out for pensions?
There is no doubt that a bankrupt big three will weigh heavily on the taxpayers for pensions and unemployment, perhaps as much as the bailout would have cost or more. And we loose a manufacturing base. Still, the UAW has to play ball, and they refuse. So fuck them.
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post #16 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71chevellejohn
Average for the foreign automakers is around $40 including benefits/legacy costs


Gee, wonder why they profit?!?

Fuck the UAW
Japanese make that. The Germans make substantially more and only work 28 hours a week. Then again their cars aren't even close to being comparable in price.

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post #17 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeb
There is no doubt that a bankrupt big three will weigh heavily on the taxpayers for pensions and unemployment, perhaps as much as the bailout would have cost or more. And we loose a manufacturing base. Still, the UAW has to play ball, and they refuse. So fuck them.
\
yep... Hopefully this will be a lesson learned across the country and a lesson for all the ungrateful unions out there (I know there might be some good ones). Im not to sure why the big wigs at GM are not happy about the chance to dump the UAW contracts and pension liabilities. Now they can start fresh with 1/2 the labor costs and really make some money. Their outrageous salaries and bonuses will be even bigger.

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post #18 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:51 PM
 
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The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
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post #19 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
Where are you getting your sources? I just read a yahoo news thing saying GM average UAW worker was $29.xx and Toyota was $30... Read one on CNN a while back showing $34 GM and $70 with benefits. Either way...their days of FREE (no monthly healthcare dues) are over.

From some website:
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)


Another comparison:
http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

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post #20 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
So where is the problem with the uaw? A $3/hour pay cut gets the job done. $25/hour is $4k a month which anyone should be able to live on. But the uaw says no. So they are fucked when bankruptcy is filed.
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post #21 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:05 PM
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So where is the problem with the uaw? A $3/hour pay cut gets the job done. $25/hour is $4k a month which anyone should be able to live on.
Just did the research...it seems as though it is the amazing benefits package that is killing them. GM pays over 7x the amount for benefits. The benefits makes the average worker price jump up to $73.73 vs Toyotas $48


and apparently the UAW workers are slower and take 34.3 hours per car vs Toyota's 27.9

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post #22 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:08 PM
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You think these UAW people would not go back to work at a non union GM? Even taking a pay cut they won't get better leaving GM.
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post #23 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
apparently the UAW workers are slower and take 34.3 hours per car vs Toyota's 27.9
I wonder how much that has to due with how many SUV and large trucks we make compared to toyota? I'd think it takes longer to make a tahoe over a camry, just curious if all vehicles are averaged in that number.

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post #24 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
Just to make it SIMPLE for YOU... here's a chart







Oh, by the way... I love how you continually work Obama buzzwords into your posting Ė youíve got the usage down - now maybe you can work on the spelling.

AUDACITY

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post #25 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:26 PM
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You think these UAW people would not go back to work at a non union GM? Even taking a pay cut they won't get better leaving GM.
perhaps, but without the uaw shield after bankruptcy. Workers will perform on their own merits.

the uaw is done.
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post #26 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:45 PM
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GM is paying more retired employees than it has current employees.
Also part of the problem with giving these guys health care is they are living longer than was expected thus costing GM even more money.
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post #27 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
Get the fuck out of here. Google OPEB.
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post #28 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 04:10 AM
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I cannot feel sorry for people that think they are entitled to more than market wages just because they collectively bargain. If unions were more like a professional guild and culled the leaches from their groups, they would be worth it. Heck, I would join such a organization.
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post #29 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 04:17 AM
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I cannot feel sorry for people that think they are entitled to more than market wages just because they collectively bargain. If unions were more like a professional guild and culled the leaches from their groups, they would be worth it. Heck, I would join such a organization.
From most of the unions that I've seen, not only are the leaches not culled from the herd, they're supported and made to feel like they rightfully deserve every bit and more of what they're getting.

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post #30 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Where are you getting your sources? I just read a yahoo news thing saying GM average UAW worker was $29.xx and Toyota was $30... Read one on CNN a while back showing $34 GM and $70 with benefits. Either way...their days of FREE (no monthly healthcare dues) are over.

From some website:
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)


Another comparison:
http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606
Sources? He's never had sources before, so why would he now?
I think GM's bigger issue with the union, is the retirement pensions they pay out. Some of these guys (I know 3), retired at 48-50 after 30 years, and still draw 80% of their pay! How many of those guys are out there? That is a major difference between GM and Toyota, Honda, etc.

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post #31 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 05:22 AM
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I would love to make 70+ bucks and hour.
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post #32 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 05:52 AM
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Fuck em.
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post #33 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:04 AM
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post #34 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:25 AM
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GM killed itself. Didn't make wanted cars. And they agree to the contract terms, didn't have to accept the contract that UAW worked under.

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post #35 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:33 AM
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Oh, by the way... I love how you continually work Obama buzzwords into your posting Ė youíve got the usage down - now maybe you can work on the spelling.

AUDACITY
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post #36 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gpamp
The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
You know nothing of the costs of benefit packages, you stupid fuck. Of course with the kind of McJobs you might qualify for, benefits aren't part of deal.
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post #37 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:43 AM
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GM killed itself. Didn't make wanted cars. And they agree to the contract terms, didn't have to accept the contract that UAW worked under.

I love it, everytime the UAW doesn't get their way they never ever take responsibility. They wouldn't even comment after it was all said and done. I love how their big wigs don't give two shits about the workers, the people ACTUALLY doing the work are just following like stupid little sheep, the director doesn't want to cut his salary or the other heads, so he says I don't care about the little people who support a family, I will find another company to ruin. Now all those people are fucked, but they will picket gm after they drop the contract and gm finds reasonable priced workers.

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post #38 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:11 AM
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I would love to make 70+ bucks and hour doing a job that is no more complicated than working the fry station at MdDonalds.
Fixed.

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post #39 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:13 AM
 
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You know nothing of the costs of benefit packages, you stupid fuck. Of course with the kind of McJobs you might qualify for, benefits aren't part of deal.
Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.
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post #40 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:17 AM
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Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.
you dont really think that the benefit package cost 47+ an hour do you.

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post #41 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:21 AM
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you dont really think that the benefit package cost 47+ an hour do you.

Sick leave, PTO, healthcare while working and after retirement... I can see that.

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post #42 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:23 AM
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I am not knowledgable on the bankruptcy rules, but if they go bankrupt what pensions do the government pick up, just the ones for people that are already retired or for those currently working?

All I hear is bla bla bla......
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post #43 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:26 AM
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pertty tough decision...

employed at 85 % of what i was making or unemployed at nothing...in Michigan Guess i'm too stoopid to figure that one out. Let em go tits up. One day, all contracts are null & void. Then watch the UAW try to keep these nitwits employed.

Side note..were these concessions put to a rank & file vote, or was it the union bigwigs decision??

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post #44 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:36 AM
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Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.
You needn't worry about either, you fucking cunt. The kind of shit-ass jobs for which you might be qualified provide neither benefits or pay $23/hr. Stay out of topics about which you know virtually nothing, which essentially is any topic above the mental comprehension of a 7-year-old.
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post #45 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:36 AM
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Look, you ignorant pussy.
Oh look the fascist is out of the closet.

And screw the UAW. Good riddance - they are a worthless drain on industry and well as on their blind-sheep membership.

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post #46 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 07:43 AM
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What would Reagan do?

He would fire these stupid motherfuckers and replace them with people that are grateful.


How difficult is it to put 8 bolts on a fender all day long?
Why dont we just make all these states right to work and let them hire people on there merits and abilities. I bet you would get better quality and a cheaper car.

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post #47 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare.
gpamp, haven't seen you here in a long time.

Nobody will argue about them getting $3 more, that is reasonable. I donít think anybody has a problem with healthcare either, but they have to remember that a lot of working Americans have no healthcare or have to pay for a portion of theirs.

Also, they have the opportunity to work for 20-30 years, retire at age 50, and still receive a large portion of their paycheck for the next 20-30. I donít know what you do for a living, but I know I donít have that opportunity, and I am willing to bet you donít either.

They are lucky as hell to make what they do and have the awesome benefit packages they have. I donít begrudge them for that, but their incredible inflexibility in this dire situation is staggering. It seems that they would rather drag the company down and lose their jobs than give up some of the rather generous benefits they have. They now believe they are entitled to those things, and the bottom line is they are not.

They got together, got GM to agree to a sweet deal, and they rode it out as long as it would go. The ride is over. They need to come to the realization that the have milked the cow dry.

Just to be fair I will say that GM is to blame also. I donít know the specifics, but apparently they had the money to pay their benefit obligations and misused it. They spread themselves too thin with 15 different brands selling 20 different cars. They also failed to adjust their production properly to align with demand related to gas prices and ďgoing greenĒ.

Tired of typing.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Gerald Ford/Thomas Jefferson

"A Republic, if you can keep it"
- Benjamin Franklin

The way to peaceably remove elected officials who deviate from the constitution of the United States of America...
www.blowoutcongress.com
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post #48 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 08:24 AM
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How far she goes....we will never know..

The DJIA is down 120points and oil is down $4 and it just opened a couple hours ago...

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post #49 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
How far she goes....we will never know..

The DJIA is down 120points and oil is down $4 and it just opened a couple hours ago...
yea and thatís after a bounce back from the initial open no less. it was going to be much worse but the treasury department is meddling with shit it shouldnít.

what possible reason could the market have to go up?
retail industry: down
airlines: down
oil consumption: down
jobless claims: record high
foreclosures = like a motherfucker!
coupled that with a 50 billion dollar wall street scandal, failing auto...
worst of all, failing government.
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post #50 of 124 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzwell
pertty tough decision...

employed at 85 % of what i was making or unemployed at nothing...in Michigan Guess i'm too stoopid to figure that one out. Let em go tits up. One day, all contracts are null & void. Then watch the UAW try to keep these nitwits employed.

Side note..were these concessions put to a rank & file vote, or was it the union bigwigs decision??
hopefully they'll strike when the bankruptcy judge sets their deal, and we'll get a reagan style mass firing.

Seems like to me that a condition of the senate deal should have been that if they don't take the deal that the senate is offering them then they are ineligible for unemployment.
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