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post #1 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Big Three CEOs Flew Private Jets to Plead for Public Funds

This is just how fucking stupid these guys are...

If you're going to Congress to beg for money and show poverty I think you'd be smart enough to fly commercial. Heck, I don't think anyone will complain if you fly first class..

Dumbasses. ABC threw them under the bus. Rightly so IMO.



http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallSt...6285739&page=1
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Big Three CEOs Flew Private Jets to Plead for Public Funds
Auto Industry Close to Bankruptcy But They Get Pricey Perk

The CEOs of the big three automakers flew to the nation's capital yesterday in private luxurious jets to make their case to Washington that the auto industry is running out of cash and needs $25 billion in taxpayer money to avoid bankruptcy.

The CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler may have told Congress that they will likely go out of business without a bailout yet that has not stopped them from traveling in style, not even First Class is good enough.

All three CEOs - Rick Wagoner of GM, Alan Mulally of Ford, and Robert Nardelli of Chrysler - exercised their perks Tuesday by flying in corporate jets to DC. Wagoner flew in GM's $36 million luxury aircraft to tell members of Congress that the company is burning through cash, asking for $10-12 billion for GM alone.

"We want to continue the vital role we've played for Americans for the past 100 years, but we can't do it alone," Wagoner told the Senate Banking Committee.

While Wagoner testified, his G4 private jet was parked at Dulles airport. It is just one of a fleet of luxury jets owned by GM that continues to ferry executives around the world despite the company's dire financial straits.

"This is a slap in the face of taxpayers," said Tom Schatz, President of Citizens Against Government Waste. "To come to Washington on a corporate jet, and asking for a hand out is outrageous."

Wagoner's private jet trip to Washington cost his ailing company an estimated $20,000 roundtrip. In comparison, seats on Northwest Airlines flight 2364 from Detroit to Washington were going online for $288 coach and $837 first class.

After the hearing, Wagoner declined to answer questions about his travel.

Ford CEO Mulally's corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.

Mulally made his case Tuesday before the committee saying he's cut expenses, laid-off workers and closed 17 plants.

"We have also reduced our work force by 51,000 employees in the past three years," Mulally said.

Yet Ford continues to operate a fleet of eight private jets for its executives. Just Tuesday, one jet was taking Ford brass to Los Angeles, another on a trip to Nebraska, and of course Mulally needed to fly to Washington to testify. He did not address questions following the hearing.

"Now's not the time to do that sort of thing," said John McElroy of the television program "Autoline Detroit."

"Now's the time to be humble and show that you're sharing equally in the sacrifice," McElroy said.

GM and Ford say that it is a corporate decision to have their CEOs fly on private jets and that is non-negotiable, even as the companies say they are running out of cash.

Private jet travel is perhaps the greatest perk of all for CEOs, who say it allows them to travel more efficiently and safely, even in a recession.

AIG, despite the $150 billion bailout, still operates a fleet of corporate jets. The company says it has put two out of its seven jets up for sale and is reviewing the use of others. Though there are no such plans by GM or Ford.

"It appears that the senior management of the automakers simply don't get it," said Schatz.

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post #2 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:57 AM
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I don't see the problem. They own the jets, might as well use them. Obama chartered an MD-80 for his meeting with Bush, and flew by himself. I thought he was a champion of the environment and the economy!?

Had they really wanted to get the point across, they would have taken a hybrid car and showed up late because they ran out of gas and had to panhandle for the funds to make it to DC

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post #3 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 10:57 AM
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Let'em fail.
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post #4 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:01 AM
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Let'em fail.
They need to. It would drive costs down and force them to produce a better product.

Plus it would bring an end to the unions, who loathe the companies and only view them as a vehicle to provide their own funding.

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post #5 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:01 AM
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I don't see a problem either. The jets were not "theirs" but the companies, and it's cheaper to send people in your own plane then to pay for "Commercial Airfair." Consider that the comapny flies different people everday to somewhere else.

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post #6 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:07 AM
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Let'em fail.
I agree, we as a country need to end the corporate welfare programs.

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post #7 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sean88gt
I don't see the problem. They own the jets, might as well use them. Obama chartered an MD-80 for his meeting with Bush, and flew by himself. I thought he was a champion of the environment and the economy!?

Had they really wanted to get the point across, they would have taken a hybrid car and showed up late because they ran out of gas and had to panhandle for the funds to make it to DC

The problem is that they are going to Congress with hat in hand to plead poverty. It hurts their argument when they do so after getting off a private jet. That's why its stupid. ABC just made them look like a bunch of elitist assholes looking to suck the treasury dry so they can party some more.

There are good reasons for companies like these to have private jets but it tells me that they have a lack of judgment when they do something like this.

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post #8 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:30 AM
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When E*Trade was going down hill fast, they sold off assets, including the corporate jet they owned.

They've done studies you know.... 60% of the time, it works every time



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post #9 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMOKEY
I don't see a problem either. The jets were not "theirs" but the companies, and it's cheaper to send people in your own plane then to pay for "Commercial Airfair." Consider that the comapny flies different people everday to somewhere else.
I would hope that your comment was filled with sarcasm. The correct thing to do is liquidate your airplanes for a combined value of over $100 MILLION and reinvest into your failing company. Did you not read the article where it said it cost GM $20,000 to fly his ass from Detroit to DC? I think coach airfare of $300 would be a lot cheaper. It is always cheaper to fly commercial than your own jet. AVGAS, pilot, parking, taxi, etc adds up very fast.

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post #10 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
I would hope that your comment was filled with sarcasm. The correct thing to do is liquidate your airplanes for a combined value of over $100 MILLION and reinvest into your failing company. Did you not read the article where it said it cost GM $20,000 to fly his ass from Detroit to DC? I think coach airfare of $300 would be a lot cheaper. It is always cheaper to fly commercial than your own jet. AVGAS, pilot, parking, taxi, etc adds up very fast.

Yeah, but he would have only saved a little over $19K as he would have to fly first class. Pocket change is all that is.

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post #11 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:51 AM
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Yeah, but he would have only saved a little over $19K as he would have to fly first class. Pocket change is all that is.
apparently...That 19k wouldnt pay half a line workers salary

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post #12 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 11:53 AM
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LOL, that takes some nuts! I was feeling sorry for them...now, I think they need an economic lesson.
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post #13 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:00 PM
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apparently...That 19k wouldnt pay half a line workers salary

Or his union dues.

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post #14 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:02 PM
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Ford CEO Mulally's corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.
I'm sure this nets out to more than a million a year. Please, justify that for me....

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post #15 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:10 PM
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I'm sure this nets out to more than a million a year. Please, justify that for me....
You quoted the article but me at the same time?

Well, I guess I can help. The article said they would spend $20k per trip from Detroit to DC. Figure the Ford guy goes home every weeked:

52weeks x $20,000 per trip = $1.04million... so say your average worker is making $50k/year salary, they could afford 20 employees for one of the CEO's luxuries.

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post #16 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:16 PM
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LOL..just looked into average pay for GM:
GM Nonskilled Assembly Line Worker:
$31.35/hour
NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll and those on protected status

After Benefits:

GM:

$73.73


No wonder the guys are broke. Their assembly line worker is pulling in more than the average household income by $15k

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post #17 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:32 PM
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They also don't pick up pennies on the street. Let's make a news story about that.
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post #18 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:37 PM
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Screw the auto makers. Cost cutting starts at the top; that's why they call it leadership. The leaders of the company should set the example, but they are not willing to make any effort.

So let them go under. Sure, having your own private airline is handy, but they can no longer afford it.
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post #19 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:43 PM
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with all the crazy ass people around i dont blame them. they probably dont feel like talking to anybody about the bullshit so they fly a private jet to avoid it. And yes if your the ceo of ford gm or chrysler having a private jet should be standard IMO

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post #20 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:14 PM
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So, will GM be able to mass-produce the next gen Camaro on time?
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post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:26 PM
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So, will GM be able to mass-produce the next gen Camaro on time?
Sure, if by mass produced you mean about 10k units.

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post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:33 PM
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So, will GM be able to mass-produce the next gen Camaro on time?
Im sure that they arent to worried about the camaro. They are trying to figure out how to fix that big hole in the side of their ship!!

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post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:39 PM
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Cost cutting starts at the top
I would be to differ. There's well over $100 million in overpaid Union workers to be freed up; you'd be hard pressed to find $100 million in corporate salaries to be freed up (this jet aside).

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post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:39 PM
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So, will GM be able to mass-produce the next gen Camaro on time?
Doesn't matter. The 2010 Mustang only has 315 HP. Camaro will outsell it no matter what, even if it's not produced!

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post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:40 PM
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Thumbs down

They need to lower the prices of the vehicles. Maybe then the common working class Man or Woman would be able to afford them. That would fix part of the problem. Most people can't afford that over priced shit they have on the lots these days.
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post #26 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:42 PM
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If things keep going the way they currently are, the only company that produces the 2010 Camaro may be Mattel.
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post #27 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:44 PM
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I would be to differ. There's well over $100 million in overpaid Union workers to be freed up; you'd be hard pressed to find $100 million in corporate salaries to be freed up (this jet aside).
Wonder if they do go bankrupt and the union employee's lose there pension etc if they will form a mob and go after the CEO's have an incident like in India where a mob killed the CEO. I wouldn't blame them. Chrysler exec's taking a $30 million bonus and then a month later them going to Congress for money to keep the company aflot is fucking insanity!

All I hear is bla bla bla......
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post #28 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:50 PM
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Wonder if they do go bankrupt and the union employee's lose there pension etc if they will form a mob and go after the CEO's have an incident like in India where a mob killed the CEO. I wouldn't blame them. Chrysler exec's taking a $30 million bonus and then a month later them going to Congress for money to keep the company aflot is fucking insanity!
and we are questioning why these guys are on private jets LMAO! Union workers who lose their jobs etc would love to beat the shit out of those guys if given the opportunity!!

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post #29 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:50 PM
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Why do people make a big deal out of the big 3 asking for a mere (yes, we all know $25b is not "mere," but in this context, it most certainly is) $25b, when, at the drop of a dime, the government shells out money hand over fist to AIG three times over?!?!?!?

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post #30 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 01:52 PM
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They need to lower the prices of the vehicles. Maybe then the common working class Man or Woman would be able to afford them. That would fix part of the problem. Most people can't afford that over priced shit they have on the lots these days.
You can't afford to drop the price of a vehicle when the UAW has cornered you into paying some monkey $35/hr to mount wheels.

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post #31 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 02:04 PM
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I can understand the need and use for a private jet by a company, it can be a money saver, and a time saver. CEOs usually travel with a team, a lawyer, accountant, other executives, ect. but there is a lot of money being wasted, and do you really need a fleet of jets if your GM?
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post #32 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geor!
Why do people make a big deal out of the big 3 asking for a mere (yes, we all know $25b is not "mere," but in this context, it most certainly is) $25b, when, at the drop of a dime, the government shells out money hand over fist to AIG three times over?!?!?!?
Not only that but most of these companies would make a million dollars a day just from the overnight interest on cash positions.
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post #33 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Geor!
Why do people make a big deal out of the big 3 asking for a mere (yes, we all know $25b is not "mere," but in this context, it most certainly is) $25b, when, at the drop of a dime, the government shells out money hand over fist to AIG three times over?!?!?!?
Aig is a hell of alot bigger than GM is and they are worldwide. GM would mess up the US for sure but if AIG had failed it would be felt all over the world

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post #34 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 02:30 PM
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One reason for the CEOs and senior management to fly private jets is it's more productive. First, it allows them to work on the flight. Figuring 40 hours a week for 52 weeks, you only have 2,080 work hours a year. Take away holidays and vacation hours, and your talking less then 2,000 hours a year. If the CEO is making $20M a year and working 2,000 hours, he's making $10,000 an hour.

I work in the aeronautical Satcom (satellite communications) industry selling equipment to this companies which provides the capability for CEOs to communicate with their office while flying. By communicate I mean email, internet access and fax capability. So while the $10,000 an hour guy flies his private jet he's connected to his office in real-time, making decisions. He can even hold a video conference if he desires.

Also, when you fly your own jet you determine when you travel and are not at the mercy of the airlines. In the past 20 years, I've flown 2 million miles on commerical airliners. I've gotten stranded all over the world many times, and have spent a massive number of hours waiting on delayed flights.

When you fly your own luxury jet, your arrive at your destination rested and in a sharp mental state. If you're the CEO traveling to Japan to negotiate a big deal, not being at your sharpest will likelly cost you way more than the difference between flying commerical or private jet. I fly back from Toyko to DFW coach earlier this year and it took me two days to recover. I flew business class on the way from DFW to Tokyo. It was much more enjoyable, and I felt a hell of alot better after the flight. Some of the VIP aircraft I sell equipment for even have bedrooms, showers, etc.

Another thing to consider is the CEO doesn't usually go on a business trip alone. From my experience working with the flight departments of several major corporations, the average is 3-6 passengers on a flight. The GM G-IV holds 11-14 passengers. For such an important trip, probably every seat was full. So we're not talking about one commercial ticket; you're probably talking at least 10 first class airfares.



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post #35 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 02:34 PM
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Aig is a hell of alot bigger than GM is and they are worldwide. GM would mess up the US for sure but if AIG had failed it would be felt all over the world
Honestly I think we should have let it fail. Things begin and things end. It's a vicious cycle called life. Also once something ends something else begins. I am guessing AIG will more than likely need more money again when it is back in the exact same place it is today probably in a mere year.

All I hear is bla bla bla......
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post #36 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 02:44 PM
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I can't help but wonder, are these people insane? Are they just pompous thinking they can get away with flying their private jets, having their celebratory resort celebrations, owning their 8 homes, etc? Or are they just THAT disconnected from the "real world" to where they really could never consider any other lifestyle, mode of transportation, business operations, etc?
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post #37 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 03:19 PM
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I would be to differ. There's well over $100 million in overpaid Union workers to be freed up; you'd be hard pressed to find $100 million in corporate salaries to be freed up (this jet aside).
I was speaking in general terms. In most companies if you want the rank and file to follow something then upper managment has to also walk the walk. Not happening with with big 3, which is one reason the unions won't play along.
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post #38 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 03:27 PM
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I can't help but wonder, are these people insane? Are they just pompous thinking they can get away with flying their private jets, having their celebratory resort celebrations, owning their 8 homes, etc? Or are they just THAT disconnected from the "real world" to where they really could never consider any other lifestyle, mode of transportation, business operations, etc?
Imagine working at a company that has $25 billion in cash, do you think they may be a little disconnected?

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post #39 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geor!
Why do people make a big deal out of the big 3 asking for a mere (yes, we all know $25b is not "mere," but in this context, it most certainly is) $25b, when, at the drop of a dime, the government shells out money hand over fist to AIG three times over?!?!?!?
Understand that I haven't totally made up my mind on the matter.

But, how does handing them $25 billion help, long term, when they've got something like $50B in liabilities? At least with a Chapter 11 those liabilities get wiped off the books. I think Jack Walsh might have it right when he suggested that GM and Chrysler declare chapter 11 with the intent to merge the companies. Ford, will probably make a comeback even without a bailout.

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post #40 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 12:10 AM
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We have a process engineer at our plant that came out of GM, and he says the real scuttlebut is GM only has a few weeks operating capital, not a few months like they've reported. Supposedly they've stopped paying rebates back to dealers.

Give me a dollar.
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post #41 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMOKEY
I don't see a problem either. The jets were not "theirs" but the companies, and it's cheaper to send people in your own plane then to pay for "Commercial Airfair." Consider that the comapny flies different people everday to somewhere else.
Remember, you have to pay for all the expensive food the probably ate, wine they drank, stuiterse(god damn i can't spell it), pay for a pilot, jet fuel, FAA. The list goes on. It's not just as easy as hoping in a plane, and taking off from your backyard.

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post #42 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geor!
Why do people make a big deal out of the big 3 asking for a mere (yes, we all know $25b is not "mere," but in this context, it most certainly is) $25b, when, at the drop of a dime, the government shells out money hand over fist to AIG three times over?!?!?!?
It is different letting the worlds largest financial institution fail, and letting the automakers fail.

It is a damn good thing they (GM for sure) fail. They will be forced to re-organize, cut some wasteful spending, fuck over the unions. Personally, I do not think Ford will go under. Not because they produced the vehicles I like the most, but they have made some changes in the past couple years, that make them not be in the situation GM is in. And Ford's future looks pretty good actually.

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post #43 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeb
I was speaking in general terms. In most companies if you want the rank and file to follow something then upper managment has to also walk the walk. Not happening with with big 3, which is one reason the unions won't play along.
Theoretically you're right, but you and I both know that the Unions won't play ball regardless of what happens at the top; as long as massive Unions are allowed leverage, they will latch on like leeches and take as much money as they can.

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post #44 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 07:20 AM
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jeez you guys they, haven't even upgraded to a lear global express or a G650, let alone the 10 year old G5. You guys act like a 20 year old G4 is luxury or somethin.

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post #45 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grape
jeez you guys they, haven't even upgraded to a lear global express or a G650, let alone the 10 year old G5. You guys act like a 20 year old G4 is luxury or somethin.
A lot better than my Silverado.

Can anyone confirm that GM isn't paying dealerships rebates back?

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post #46 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yale
We have a process engineer at our plant that came out of GM, and he says the real scuttlebut is GM only has a few weeks operating capital, not a few months like they've reported. Supposedly they've stopped paying rebates back to dealers.
GM hasn't stopped paying incentives to dealers. They have delayed paying incentives by two weeks to save cash. Still, it is a bad situation.

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post #47 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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Wagoner says he's willing to resign. He also said he doesn't believe management is to blame. Uh, Earth to Rick, Management might not shoulder all of the blame but you sure as hell are to blame for a lot of it.


http://www.freep.com/article/2008112...811200351/1014
Quote:
Wagoner doesn't rule out quitting

General Motors Corp. Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner signaled that he might step aside, should he be asked to resign as a condition for the biggest U.S. automaker to receive federal aid.
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"I'll always do what's right for the company," Wagoner said Wednesday in a Bloomberg Television interview. "But even more critical during a difficult time period is having the best possible management team. We have a good team at GM. That's not what I would recommend."

Wagoner, 55, spoke in Washington after testifying to a U.S. House committee with CEOs Alan Mulally of Ford Motor Co. and Bob Nardelli of Chrysler LLC to drum up support for a $25-billion rescue plan for the auto industry.

GM and Chrysler have said they're running out of money, with Detroit-based GM saying it may not have enough operating cash by year's end. Some lawmakers have called on Wagoner, who has been CEO since 2000, to quit.

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post #48 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
Theoretically you're right, but you and I both know that the Unions won't play ball regardless of what happens at the top; as long as massive Unions are allowed leverage, they will latch on like leeches and take as much money as they can.
Unions backed every democrat in congress and of course Obama. Barney Frank and friends are going to bend over as far as possible for them. Piss off the UAW and the democrats could lose 48 electoral votes immediately (Michigan, Ohio and Indiana).

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post #49 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:31 AM
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Bonus's are there for a reason..

You think those guys would still be there if they weren't getting those bonus's?

I know if I wasn't, I would just pack my shit up and get the hell out of dodge. Putting up with all this mess wouldn't be worth a regular million dollar salary or what not.

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post #50 of 77 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC
Theoretically you're right, but you and I both know that the Unions won't play ball regardless of what happens at the top; as long as massive Unions are allowed leverage, they will latch on like leeches and take as much money as they can.
Well, then I hope they enjoy unemployment.
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