Should the government bail out the auto makers? - DFWstangs Forums
View Poll Results: Should the government bail out the automakers?
yes 24 29.27%
no 58 70.73%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,089
Should the government bail out the auto makers?

Republicans are saying no
most of the Dems are saying they would vote yes, though none of them are excited about doing it.
cannonball996 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 03:52 PM
Where is Ms. Right?
 
Memo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Irving, TX
Posts: 1,581
they're gonna do it just because 10% of all jobs in the US have to do with the auto industry. IE manufacturing, sales, service, etc...... and that'll be too many jobs lost.....

"Don't be with someone you can live with, be with someone you can't live without"
Memo is offline  
post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 03:52 PM
Lifer
 
93coupelx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Commiefornia
Posts: 1,152


NO

Bailing them out will only delay the inevitable. Unions have bled them dry.
93coupelx is offline  
 
post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 03:53 PM
BANNED
 
mustangguy289's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,098
I am republican and I would much rather see us bail out companies that produce jobs and products than bail out banks which is just adding fuel to the fire.
mustangguy289 is offline  
post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 03:53 PM
Where is Ms. Right?
 
Memo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Irving, TX
Posts: 1,581
Having said that, We should all open up a business and go broke and have them bail us out too.

"Don't be with someone you can live with, be with someone you can't live without"
Memo is offline  
post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 03:54 PM
BANNED
 
mustangguy289's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memo
Having said that, We should all open up a business and go broke and have them bail us out too.
They do not care about your little business. Your little business wont do much in the grand scheme of things if it fails except add on one more bank note that can not be fulfilled
mustangguy289 is offline  
post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Lifer
 
46Tbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 33,187
UAW should be renegotiating contracts right now to help the automakers survive. I'm not paying for their pensions or their shitty work ethic, so I say NO to a bailout. Fuck em. They should get screwed by their employer just like everyone else.


I guess the question is - who DOESN'T need a bailout right now?
46Tbird is offline  
post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 04:36 PM
Token Union Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: texas
Posts: 2,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
UAW should be renegotiating contracts right now to help the automakers survive. I'm not paying for their pensions or their shitty work ethic, so I say NO to a bailout. Fuck em. They should get screwed by their employer just like everyone else.


I guess the question is - who DOESN'T need a bailout right now?
The UAW renegotiated the contracts a few years ago and gave huge concessions to the big 3. They were in the form of lower wages for new workers and union ran pension and health care plans. The only thing left for the UAW to do is for them to throw in the towel and allow the Automakers to either move all plants over seas or to hire workers at 8 bucks an hour. I don't know of very many Americans that are standing in line to make 8 bucks an hour, do you? For the longest time I've been saying it's not the unions fault, but instead it's management's fault for running a shitty company and it is being magnified by the crappy economy. For anyone that still thinks it's the unions fault why the big 3 can not turn a profit please explain to me why Toyota lost money last quarter. Last time I checked they don't have unions.

Lets be honest. Any large Corporation no matter who it is would love nothing more than to cancel any benefits package they offer their employees. They would love to cancel health care, sick days, vacation days, and 401k contributions all in the name of more profits.

TRAIN TRASH it's like WHITE TRASH but with money.

My other vehicle is a Locomotive.

Don't cupple up without protection.
FreightTrain is offline  
post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 04:37 PM
IA2
 
mikeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 22,413
Nope. Not until the automakers have a sustainable business plan.
mikeb is offline  
post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 04:46 PM
IA2
 
mikeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 22,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreightTrain
The UAW renegotiated the contracts a few years ago and gave huge concessions to the big 3. They were in the form of lower wages for new workers and union ran pension and health care plans. The only thing left for the UAW to do is for them to throw in the towel and allow the Automakers to either move all plants over seas or to hire workers at 8 bucks an hour. I don't know of very many Americans that are standing in line to make 8 bucks an hour, do you? For the longest time I've been saying it's not the unions fault, but instead it's management's fault for running a shitty company and it is being magnified by the crappy economy. For anyone that still thinks it's the unions fault why the big 3 can not turn a profit please explain to me why Toyota lost money last quarter. Last time I checked they don't have unions.

Lets be honest. Any large Corporation no matter who it is would love nothing more than to cancel any benefits package they offer their employees. They would love to cancel health care, sick days, vacation days, and 401k contributions all in the name of more profits.
GM has been going out of business since the mid 70s. You remember the shitty quality of the cars from then? So do a lot of americans, who are buying japanese cars instead. The build quality, overall quality, and resale value were in the shitter. It was pure crap.

And as I recall there was a series of debilitating STRIKES by the union.... in the 70s. Hmmmmm.........
mikeb is offline  
post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 04:57 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeb
Nope. Not until the automakers have a sustainable business plan.
Agreed.

Quality is way up at Ford and GM but GM is still run like shit. They should have listened to Ross Perot back in the day and they wouldn't be in this mess.

Ford is making a ton of progress and I think they can actually survive without the bailout (so does Alan Mulally) they have pretty much fixed the fucked up way the Ford family does business but there is more to do.

Chrysler, well shit, the guy in charge is the guy that ran Home Depot into the ground at a time when consumers were spending a shitload of money on home improvement. If he can fuck that up well.... well lets just say he is no Bob Lutz...

GM needs to cut brands period. GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Saab, Hummer, and Saturn all need to go. GM only "NEEDS" Chevy and Caddy. Saturn can potentially stay as a brand to import their European cars with. Sell Buick to the Chinese, Hummer to Tata, Saab to anyone and kill GMC and Pontiac. Potentially GMC can stay but ONLY as a commercial truck division like it was a while back..

Those brands have driven GM to shit as much as the unions have. Look at the Lambda platform. It is the basis for some OUTSTANDING crossover vehicles. The problem is that GM has FOUR of them. The Buick Enclave, the GMC Acadia, the Saturn Outlook, and the Chevy Traverse. WTF?!?! They needed TWO at the extreme. A Chevy and a Caddy and you're done. Instead they have to spend a shit load of cash advertising for FOUR separate vehicles. Since they don't really have the cash to do that, what happens? Well, Saturn gets NO advertising. Buick gets some, GMC got the most last year but now all of that money is on the Chevy. Totally fucking stupid...

You want to fix GM, start by firing Rick Wagoner (beg Lutz to stay) and start killing off brands..

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,089
the problem is the companies are bigger then they need to be, they can downsize 20% and survive. I think they can get congress to help them out of their union problems, with a restructuring
cannonball996 is offline  
post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Censored
 
big_tiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 3,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreightTrain
For anyone that still thinks it's the unions fault why the big 3 can not turn a profit please explain to me why Toyota lost money last quarter. Last time I checked they don't have unions.
90% (if not 100) of all companies lost money last quarter.
So for the first time in 10 years Honda has slowed down for a quarter. How long has Honda been paying people 10 dollars a hour? I think your number of 8 dollars a hour is a little extreme. Cut 2/3s of the union workers, and keep the 1/3 as Quality Control Managers then the standard strategy of "we are hiring your replacements," for 10/hr.

What would also help them out is for the gov'ment to stop making auto makers add new "Safety Features." All cars must has TPMS's, LATCH, 8 airbags, lower emission.

Doors Done Rite
big_tiger is offline  
post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 06:32 PM
T5-T56-Tremec specialist
 
thesource's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Heading back to Plentywood
Posts: 8,389
GM needs to trim the fat and start with cutting some of the replica brands they currently have .
thesource is offline  
post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 06:44 PM
Lifer
 
wesman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cedar Hill,Tx
Posts: 2,142
If they do, there should be stipulations.

--wes
wesman is offline  
post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 07:01 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Arlington, Texas
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreightTrain
For the longest time I've been saying it's not the unions fault, but instead it's management's fault for running a shitty company and it is being magnified by the crappy economy.
BULLSHIT



In addition, health-care premiums add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost of every car the Big Three make, much of that to pay for benefits for retired workers (and their famalies) - a cost their competitors don't face because they have few retirees.

GM has about five retired workers for every one worker on the production line. Nearly two-thirds of GM's current employees will be eligible to retire within five years, and about 30 percent will be eligible at Ford and Chrysler.

The UAW has squeezed the golden goose to death.
blownragtop is offline  
post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 07:06 PM
Meeeeooowww
 
ALLAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: the MCO airport
Posts: 20,309
The govt needs to stop passing laws telling the automaker what to build.
Like the cafe standards and safety bs.

and get rid of the commie unions.

ALLAN is offline  
post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 08:21 PM
Token Union Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: texas
Posts: 2,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by blownragtop
BULLSHIT



In addition, health-care premiums add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost of every car the Big Three make, much of that to pay for benefits for retired workers (and their famalies) - a cost their competitors don't face because they have few retirees.

GM has about five retired workers for every one worker on the production line. Nearly two-thirds of GM's current employees will be eligible to retire within five years, and about 30 percent will be eligible at Ford and Chrysler.

The UAW has squeezed the golden goose to death.
Do you honestly think if Automakers didn't have to pay one penny for health care premiums that they would lower the cost of every vehicle by $1,200.


So let me get this straight. You think it's ok for an American Corporation to fuck it's workers and retiree's out of the retirement they have worked for and earned just because they are union workers. The reason GM is up shit creek without a paddle when it comes to their benefits package is because for decades while things were running great they underfunded their retirement programs and it has finally caught up to them. Once again I stand by my statement. The unions have bended in the past and have helped GM as much as they can, but what has management done to change the course of the company.


I surely hope the company you work for never tries to screw you out of your 401k. I think it's sick to see fellow Americans saying it's ok for a company to screw their fellow man. 40 and 50 years ago no one knew what a 401k was and the majority of people had pension plans through work. Why do you think only union workers currently have pension plans? How come union workers have better health care plans compared to non union workers?

TRAIN TRASH it's like WHITE TRASH but with money.

My other vehicle is a Locomotive.

Don't cupple up without protection.
FreightTrain is offline  
post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 08:27 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Ok, let's inject some reality here.

BOTH the unions and management are to blame. You can't blame the Unions for the shit cars that the management at GM has brought forth. You can't blame the UAW for the Aztek. GM's accountants had way to much control over the cars GM built. It wasn't until Bob Lutz got there that things started to change. By then, the damage had already been done.

Also, it wasn't the UAW that bought into FIAT and wasted billions on it. It wasn't the UAW that bought Saab and turned it to shit. It wasn't the UAW that decided to put all the companies focus on heavy SUVs when there was clear evidence YEARS AGO that there was a strong possibility that gas prices would rise. It wasn't the UAW that has spent Billions on a Chevy Volt that may never turn a profit. And finally, it isn't the UAW that insists on maintaining EIGHT different brands which is five or six more than what GM needs..

Finally, it wasn't the UAW that didn't fund the pension funds when the cash was in GM's coffers back in the '90s. It was GM Management that decided to put that money to their shareholders and executives pockets leaving them with BILLIONS in unfunded liabilities.

So what did the UAW do? As I recall they made a ton of concessions to GM back in 2007. They let GM buy out thousands of employees and replace them with VERY low paid contract workers (non-core workers can get as little as $14 an hour, core workers make $28 at the most.) Contract workers have no wage protection from layoffs. The don't work, they don't get paid. It was the UAW that proposed the creation of a Union health care trust that allowed GM to make a large lump sum payment for health care and was supposed to save GM about $3BILLION a year. (those are GM's numbers, not the UAWs) The main guarantee that the UAW got was that GM would invest in updating factories in the US for new cars (like the Chevy Cruze) to preserve jobs.

But the UAW doesn't have clean hands either. First there was the 2007 strike before the current labor deal, then several local chapters had strikes after the main labor agreement was put into place. Those strikes were a plants that built GM's most profitable models like the Malibu and the Lambda CUVs. Those strikes cost GM billions at a time when they were cash poor. UAW problems at Delphi caused it to go bankrupt and GM was forced to dump cash into the parts manufacturer or see it liquidate. The Canadian Auto Workers, well they are led by a mad man with no sense of reality. He also cost GM a ton of money in strikes. Then there is the Jobs Bank that lets thousands of workers go fully paid when a plant is idle.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The question is, how do you fix it? Don't tell me that GM pays their people too much. In the middle part of the decade, Toyota and Honda were paying their employees pretty much the same as GM was paying UAW workers. Now Toyota and Honda pay more. The real difference is the pension and health coverage. Again, GM didn't finance their pension plan when they had the chance. As for health coverage, well hell doesn't that suck for everyone in this country?

IMO a bailout might help but only if GM cuts a lot of brands, capacity, and of course jobs. The feds might also need to put retirees on medicare. I don't pretend to know all the answers but if GM goes down, you can expect this entire country to feel real pain. Maybe we actually need to feel that pain, I dunno. Just be ready for it if GM goes Chapter 7 (or even Chapter 11)

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 08:32 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreightTrain


I surely hope the company you work for never tries to screw you out of your 401k. I think it's sick to see fellow Americans saying it's ok for a company to screw their fellow man. 40 and 50 years ago no one knew what a 401k was and the majority of people had pension plans through work. Why do you think only union workers currently have pension plans? How come union workers have better health care plans compared to non union workers?
Its a lot harder for a company to screw their employees out of a 401k. The Enron scandal changed a lot of the rules. Now only a small percentage of an employee's 401k can be invested in the company. Also, the 401k matching can no longer be in company stock.

But you are right about the UAW pension plan. GM had plenty of cash on hand to fully fund it and chose to not do so.



I'm not pro union but I'll call a spade a spade. Also, I appreciate that unions are the reason we enjoy a little thing called "weekends"

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 08:37 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by blownragtop
BULLSHIT



In addition, health-care premiums add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost of every car the Big Three make, much of that to pay for benefits for retired workers (and their famalies) - a cost their competitors don't face because they have few retirees.

GM has about five retired workers for every one worker on the production line. Nearly two-thirds of GM's current employees will be eligible to retire within five years, and about 30 percent will be eligible at Ford and Chrysler.

The UAW has squeezed the golden goose to death.
Two things...

1. GM was making from $10,000 to $20,000 per sale on SUVs in the '90s up until the mid part of this decade. That was the bulk of GMs sales up until recently. Even with the big rebates they were making a profit. They also did a fairly decent job or realigning capacity until Gas hit $3.00 a gallon and it blew up in their face. If gas prices hadn't spiked like that, GM would have likely been profitable this year.

2. It was GM management that choose not to fund their pension plan. It is their fault that it is biting them in the ass. I don't disagree that it is maddening that they have to pay a pension to someone that hasn't worked since 1970 but if they had acted with proper foresight they wouldn't be having a problem right now.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Token Union Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: texas
Posts: 2,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis
Ok, let's inject some reality here.

BOTH the unions and management are to blame. You can't blame the Unions for the shit cars that the management at GM has brought forth. You can't blame the UAW for the Aztek. GM's accountants had way to much control over the cars GM built. It wasn't until Bob Lutz got there that things started to change. By then, the damage had already been done.

Also, it wasn't the UAW that bought into FIAT and wasted billions on it. It wasn't the UAW that bought Saab and turned it to shit. It wasn't the UAW that decided to put all the companies focus on heavy SUVs when there was clear evidence YEARS AGO that there was a strong possibility that gas prices would rise. It wasn't the UAW that has spent Billions on a Chevy Volt that may never turn a profit. And finally, it isn't the UAW that insists on maintaining EIGHT different brands which is five or six more than what GM needs..

Finally, it wasn't the UAW that didn't fund the pension funds when the cash was in GM's coffers back in the '90s. It was GM Management that decided to put that money to their shareholders and executives pockets leaving them with BILLIONS in unfunded liabilities.

So what did the UAW do? As I recall they made a ton of concessions to GM back in 2007. They let GM buy out thousands of employees and replace them with VERY low paid contract workers (non-core workers can get as little as $14 an hour, core workers make $28 at the most.) Contract workers have no wage protection from layoffs. The don't work, they don't get paid. It was the UAW that proposed the creation of a Union health care trust that allowed GM to make a large lump sum payment for health care and was supposed to save GM about $3BILLION a year. (those are GM's numbers, not the UAWs) The main guarantee that the UAW got was that GM would invest in updating factories in the US for new cars (like the Chevy Cruze) to preserve jobs.

But the UAW doesn't have clean hands either. First there was the 2007 strike before the current labor deal, then several local chapters had strikes after the main labor agreement was put into place. Those strikes were a plants that built GM's most profitable models like the Malibu and the Lambda CUVs. Those strikes cost GM billions at a time when they were cash poor. UAW problems at Delphi caused it to go bankrupt and GM was forced to dump cash into the parts manufacturer or see it liquidate. The Canadian Auto Workers, well they are led by a mad man with no sense of reality. He also cost GM a ton of money in strikes. Then there is the Jobs Bank that lets thousands of workers go fully paid when a plant is idle.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The question is, how do you fix it? Don't tell me that GM pays their people too much. In the middle part of the decade, Toyota and Honda were paying their employees pretty much the same as GM was paying UAW workers. Now Toyota and Honda pay more. The real difference is the pension and health coverage. Again, GM didn't finance their pension plan when they had the chance. As for health coverage, well hell doesn't that suck for everyone in this country?

IMO a bailout might help but only if GM cuts a lot of brands, capacity, and of course jobs. The feds might also need to put retirees on medicare. I don't pretend to know all the answers but if GM goes down, you can expect this entire country to feel real pain. Maybe we actually need to feel that pain, I dunno. Just be ready for it if GM goes Chapter 7 (or even Chapter 11)
One of the best post I've seen on this subject.

TRAIN TRASH it's like WHITE TRASH but with money.

My other vehicle is a Locomotive.

Don't cupple up without protection.
FreightTrain is offline  
post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 10:14 PM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
No. Absolutely not. If they fail and reorganized you will see smarter management and vehicles will be far cheaper and more profitable then they are currently.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 10:49 PM
Lifer
 
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: DFW
Posts: 13,083
if they allow them to fail it will devastate the us auto industry. The govt needs to help them get through these tough times. They have cut 40 percent of the hourly workforce already. Somebody needs to talk to all these 30K millionaires running around and tell them to pay for their shit or dont fucking buy it!

98 Brokra
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~ is offline  
post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 12:42 AM
Token Troll
 
GhostTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sherman
Posts: 4,101
These bailouts are like trying to put out a forest fire caused by a lightning strike.

Best leave it to nature to burn out the dead brush and kindling let the trees more suited to survive the fire prevail. Otherwise, we just set everything up for a bigger fire down the road.

'05 Redfire Mustang

"Self-government won't work without self-discipline." - Paul Harvey
GhostTX is offline  
post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 02:33 AM
Lifer
 
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: DFW
Posts: 13,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostTX
These bailouts are like trying to put out a forest fire caused by a lightning strike.

Best leave it to nature to burn out the dead brush and kindling let the trees more suited to survive the fire prevail. Otherwise, we just set everything up for a bigger fire down the road.
i guess we can let some chinese or mid east folks buy it.... Im sure they can improve the vette

98 Brokra
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~ is offline  
post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 05:53 AM
Old Timer
 
Dacotua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Flower Mound
Posts: 4,027
Let them declare bankruptcy and get rid of Unions.

2006 Mustang GT
Dacotua is offline  
post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 06:04 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
I'll say yes IF Ford brings back the Fox Body Coupe with a Supercharged 4.6 DOHC and 6 speed for $13,000. Until then, NO!
Denny is offline  
post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 06:27 AM
LUCIFER
 
bjtheman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aubrey
Posts: 5,462
I say No! I don't want to see the Gov't bail them out now and then years down the line same shit happens and they expect it again. They need to learn how to fix their own mistakes

2004 GT Conv't

MODS:
FLOWS, 3.73'S, BASSANI O/R X-PIPE, ACCUFAB 75MM TB, PLENUM, AND VORTECH V-3 SUPERCHARGED


bjtheman1 is offline  
post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 06:28 AM
BANNED
 
mustangguy289's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLAN
The govt needs to stop passing laws telling the automaker what to build.
Like the cafe standards and safety bs.

and get rid of the commie unions.

Or atleast put a cap on it for a while.
mustangguy289 is offline  
post #31 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 06:32 AM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~
i guess we can let some chinese or mid east folks buy it.... Im sure they can improve the vette
If they went through a reorganization bankruptcy it would cut a lot (if not most) of the bloated expenses out. It would be the best thing for them, us, and all parties involved if they went down.

Giving the auto companies a bailout is like buying a fat pig an unlimited supply of Doritos and fried chicken and not requiring she change her diet. She'll get fatter and fatter until eventually she dies. They will not change their business enough to make it work, they'll just screw the taxpayers a little more.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #32 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 08:07 AM
reppin tha westside
 
fitzwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: east of a rock, west of a hard place.
Posts: 3,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dacotua
Let them declare bankruptcy and get rid of Unions.

yep.

Unions had their place...50 years ago. I know too many people that have worked various union type jobs that aren't worth the powder to blow them off the face of the earth. Why is it Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, etc can all build in America & still be profitable???

No Unions.

Time to load up on Ford stock

------------------------------------------------------------------------
El Duderino.......of the Crown Royal Cruisers




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Jester, your posts do the same thing as going to a county fair, you really make people think "Hey, I'm not so fucked up after looking at that guy!"
fitzwell is offline  
post #33 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 08:10 AM
Token Troll
 
GhostTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sherman
Posts: 4,101
GM's in this mess mainly because of GMAC financial and the mortgage mess. Otherwise, they'd only be hurting like Ford because of crappy auto sales and gas prices.

'05 Redfire Mustang

"Self-government won't work without self-discipline." - Paul Harvey
GhostTX is offline  
post #34 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 11:34 AM
Married Man on 14Feb2010
 
TexasDevilDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fort Worth, Texas (North Side)
Posts: 14,140
Bail out GM and lets get this protectionism really going. Then other countries can jump on board and raise taxes on imports to protect their national companies. Lets see if we can push this recession in to another depression like they did with the Smoot-Hawley Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
TexasDevilDog is offline  
post #35 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 01:54 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
Bail out GM and lets get this protectionism really going. Then other countries can jump on board and raise taxes on imports to protect their national companies. Lets see if we can push this recession in to another depression like they did with the Smoot-Hawley Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
Who has said anything about raising taxes on imports? I can't even recall any Democrats suggesting that.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #36 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 02:52 PM
Lifer
 
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: DFW
Posts: 13,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
Bail out GM and lets get this protectionism really going. Then other countries can jump on board and raise taxes on imports to protect their national companies. Lets see if we can push this recession in to another depression like they did with the Smoot-Hawley Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
you may be right but theres gonna be alot of job losses if they go bankrupt. You have to think about all the companies that build parts for gm etc. They will go bankrupt too if there is no work.

98 Brokra
Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~ is offline  
post #37 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 04:21 PM
Married Man on 14Feb2010
 
TexasDevilDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fort Worth, Texas (North Side)
Posts: 14,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis
Who has said anything about raising taxes on imports? I can't even recall any Democrats suggesting that.
Who said the US would raise taxes on imports? I can't even recall any suggesting that.
TexasDevilDog is offline  
post #38 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Denton, TX Home of the Mean Green
Posts: 1,036
I say yes. Bail out the real american workers with stipulations to give the finger to ALL executive bonuses.

2007 SRT8-Grand Cherokee
2008 Cadillac Escalade
Got5onIt is offline  
post #39 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 06:00 PM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Chrysler is asking the government for a bailout. It's laying off employees and cutting salaries. It's a company in trouble.

Oh yeah, it's also paying $30 million in bonuses to dozens of top executives.

That's the end result of a poorly-timed plan to keep Chrysler together as it was being sold. The company didn't want top executives to leave during the transition, so it promised big money for people who stuck around. Now, Chrysler is asking the government for billions of dollars in aid while it writes million-dollar bonus checks out to A-list employees. How's that for awkward?

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/to...r-bailout.aspx
line-em-up is offline  
post #40 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 07:02 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
Who said the US would raise taxes on imports? I can't even recall any suggesting that.
Sorry, kinda misread your comment.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 07:03 PM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by line-em-up
Chrysler is asking the government for a bailout. It's laying off employees and cutting salaries. It's a company in trouble.

Oh yeah, it's also paying $30 million in bonuses to dozens of top executives.

That's the end result of a poorly-timed plan to keep Chrysler together as it was being sold. The company didn't want top executives to leave during the transition, so it promised big money for people who stuck around. Now, Chrysler is asking the government for billions of dollars in aid while it writes million-dollar bonus checks out to A-list employees. How's that for awkward?

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/to...r-bailout.aspx
Yea, Chrysler is giving bonus to keep execs from leaving.

My question to them is, "Where exactly are those executives going to go?" I guess they haven't noticed that no one is hiring in Michigan.

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-15-2008, 08:43 PM
Married Man on 14Feb2010
 
TexasDevilDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fort Worth, Texas (North Side)
Posts: 14,140
The biggest problem with GM and Ford is they are having to support retirees with really nice give away packages. If they do not address that issue it will not help. They are going to down size and sell more vehicles but still have to support the same number of retirees. That means the amount per vehicle to support the retirees will go up.
TexasDevilDog is offline  
post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 06:57 AM
Lifer
 
89gt-stanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Keller
Posts: 2,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
UAW should be renegotiating contracts right now to help the automakers survive. I'm not paying for their pensions or their shitty work ethic, so I say NO to a bailout. Fuck em. They should get screwed by their employer just like everyone else.


I guess the question is - who DOESN'T need a bailout right now?
UAW doesn't want re-negotiate contracts though.

and yes, fuck em'! GM is so mis-managed, it is not even funny that they are failing anymore.

NO NO NO, it should be DFWLS1's, CUMMINS, C6 VETTES.net
89gt-stanger is offline  
post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 07:00 AM
Lifer
 
89gt-stanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Keller
Posts: 2,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreightTrain
Do you honestly think if Automakers didn't have to pay one penny for health care premiums that they would lower the cost of every vehicle by $1,200.


So let me get this straight. You think it's ok for an American Corporation to fuck it's workers and retiree's out of the retirement they have worked for and earned just because they are union workers. The reason GM is up shit creek without a paddle when it comes to their benefits package is because for decades while things were running great they underfunded their retirement programs and it has finally caught up to them. Once again I stand by my statement. The unions have bended in the past and have helped GM as much as they can, but what has management done to change the course of the company.


I surely hope the company you work for never tries to screw you out of your 401k. I think it's sick to see fellow Americans saying it's ok for a company to screw their fellow man. 40 and 50 years ago no one knew what a 401k was and the majority of people had pension plans through work. Why do you think only union workers currently have pension plans? How come union workers have better health care plans compared to non union workers?

The real problem is that the government is promoting/forcing these unions. (democrats). The UAW should be WIPED OFF THE FUCKING EARTH!

So basically, Joe used to put headlights in Chevy Tahoes for a living, making $78/hr. Now that job is replaced by a robot. And because of the unions, this guy is still making $78/hr, doing nothing, you fucking dimwit.

NO NO NO, it should be DFWLS1's, CUMMINS, C6 VETTES.net
89gt-stanger is offline  
post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 08:18 AM
Married Man on 14Feb2010
 
TexasDevilDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fort Worth, Texas (North Side)
Posts: 14,140
Management is totally at fault for this situation by giving away the company to the union with the ludicrous pay and benefits. They created a broken business model that can only be fixed in bankruptcy court. Giving GM billions will prolong the final conclusion by months. The business model will still be broken. The top executives will be able to squeeze their last couple million each out of the company. Then they will throw up their hands and say bankruptcy.
TexasDevilDog is offline  
post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 08:30 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
I agree with Freighttrain that management screwed this up, for the most part because they didn't fund the pension and health plans back when they had the cash on hand. Also, the UAW was the group that came up with the Heath Care trust that GM Management said would save them 3 billion a year.

HOWEVER, that is history. There are now two choices.

1. Screw the retirees by handing them over to Social Security and Medicare and thus preserving most of the current jobs.

OR

2. Declaring Chapter 11, killing off the UAW contract, all retiree benefits, lots more jobs, a lot more pain.

I don't like the fact that GM management has fucked this up so badly but that is the reality of it. The UAW only has the choice of letting retirees be screwed or letting currently labor be screwed. There is NO WIN, WIN scenario for this cluster fuck. Someone is gonna feel the pain.

But Rick Wagoner still needs to lose his fucking job over all of this...

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-16-2008, 11:39 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Watauga Tx
Posts: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
Bail out GM and lets get this protectionism really going. Then other countries can jump on board and raise taxes on imports to protect their national companies. Lets see if we can push this recession in to another depression like they did with the Smoot-Hawley Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
I have no problem with that at all. Get rid of the imported crap and bring back the manufacturing jobs. Americans arent lazy stupid asses, we will simply fill in the areas we need to ourselves just like we were back in the day.

America can not compete in a global economy, our standard of living is higher than just about every country and so is our cost of living. We need as many jobs here as we can get! We also need to get rid of imported goods and protect american companies from being forced to outsource or go out of business due to unfair competion. I put my faith in my fellow americans over some foreign country any day.
Slammy is offline  
post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 07:38 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: tail end of where the hell are we road
Posts: 807
life will go on with no gm . it will be replaced with a better run company just as it always has. screw unions , they had a place 50 years ago but in todays world they are just blackmailing thugs dragging an industry down. best that can happen is a good dose of reality. gm folds , reorganizes , realistic wages , realistic retirement . the days of unions controlling industry is over. every strike has costs the industry millions and the missed wages will never be recouped . let those bolt installers work for a living like the rest of us. i have good friends who work for gm and none would last a week at a real job. it's time to wake up and trim the fat from the top to the bottom. ask steel worker how it went , ask textile workers how it went . one by one the unions have killed industries here and sent them elsewhere.

" dont mess with the porchdog........ he bites "
Bubbaearl is offline  
post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 07:53 AM
AHMO!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: the original let me google that for ya guy
Posts: 16,810
Wow...according to the lady next to me she heard on the new Union Autoworker people average $78 an hour!!!!!

She told me I'm in the wrong job and should do that instead!!!

The average american strikes again!
Nate is offline  
post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 07:59 AM
Lifer
 
FATHERFORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Katy and Waco
Posts: 1,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaSSty Nate
Wow...according to the lady next to me she heard on the new Union Autoworker people average $78 an hour!!!!!

She told me I'm in the wrong job and should do that instead!!!

The average american strikes again!
I think that figure includes benefits also..

Still though, I should quit the oil and gas business and start putting in GMC truck grills for a living

"His tricked out trans am guzzles every dime he brings home"

2004 RC SWB F150 5.4 - Saleen S/C'd 5.4 3V
1979 Pace Car - Not the usual mods
1984 Gt-350 - Trickflow'd 302
1992 Coupe - Vortech'd 393
1997 Viper GTS - H/C and Giggles

Buy my F-150 Vortech Setup! - Link
FATHERFORD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome