Don't hurt the whales with your sonar!! - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Don't hurt the whales with your sonar!!

It is nice to see that the Supreme Court is not falling for their bullshit.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science....ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court on Wednesday lifted restrictions on the Navy's use of sonar in training exercises off the California coast, a defeat for environmental groups who say the sonar can harm whales.

The court, in its first decision of the term, voted 5-4 that the Navy needs to conduct realistic training exercises to respond to potential threats by enemy submarines.

Environmental groups had persuaded lower federal courts in California to impose restrictions on sonar use in submarine-hunting exercises to protect whales and other marine mammals.

The Bush administration argued that there is little evidence of harm to marine life in more than 40 years of exercises off the California coast.

Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the majority opinion, which was joined by Justices Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

The court did not deal with the merits of the claims put forward by the environmental groups. It said, rather, that federal courts abused their discretion by ordering the Navy to limit sonar use in some cases and to turn it off altogether in others.

Roberts pointed out that the federal appeals court decision restricting the Navy's sonar training acknowledged that the record contained no evidence marine mammals had been harmed.

The overall public interest tips "strongly in favor of the Navy," Roberts wrote.

The most serious possible injury of allowing the Navy to proceed would be harm to an unknown number of the marine mammals, said Roberts.

"In contrast, forcing the Navy to deploy an inadequately trained anti-submarine force jeopardizes the safety of the fleet," the chief justice wrote.

In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that the Navy's own assessment predicted substantial and irreparable harm to marine mammals from the service's exercises. She said that "this likely harm ... cannot be lightly dismissed, even in the face of an alleged risk to the effectiveness of the Navy's 14 training exercises."
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:24 PM
 
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Good to know that our SC has common sense. Anybody know what evidence the environmentalist group had that it harmed the whales?
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:26 PM
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I read about it the other day http://www.nature.com/news/2008/0808....2008.997.html

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:29 PM
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I can't believe I'm saying this but score one for the supreme court. Our court system is more drunkenly out of control than Ted Kennedy; at least the SC fixed a mistake this time.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:30 PM
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weslie
Good to know that our SC has common sense. Anybody know what evidence the environmentalist group had that it harmed the whales?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P
Roberts pointed out that the federal appeals court decision restricting the Navy's sonar training acknowledged that the record contained no evidence marine mammals had been harmed.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weslie
Good to know that our SC has common sense. Anybody know what evidence the environmentalist group had that it harmed the whales?
From this I gathered that they pretty much had none:

"Roberts pointed out that the federal appeals court decision restricting the Navy's sonar training acknowledged that the record contained no evidence marine mammals had been harmed."

I could see the whales getting confused but its I would have a hard time believing they suffered any permanent damage.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P
I could see the whales getting confused but its I would have a hard time believing they suffered any permanent damage.
Quote:
But military-sponsored tests now suggest that low levels of sonar, which do not cause direct damage to whales, could still cause harm by triggering behavioural changes

The UK military report details observations of whale activity during Operation Anglo-Saxon 06, a submarine war-games exercise in 2006. Produced for the UK’s Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, it states the results are “potentially very significant”.

The study used an array of hydrophones to listen for whale sounds during the war games. Across the course of the exercise, the number of whale recordings dropped from over 200 to less than 50. “Beaked whale species ... appear to cease vocalising and foraging for food in the area around active sonar transmissions,” concludes the report.


It notes, “Since these animals feed at depth, this could have the effect of preventing a beaked whale from feeding over the course of the trial and could lead to second or third order effects on the animal and population as a whole.”
At this point, nobody knows for sure what will happen. Hopefully nothing

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Last edited by 5point0pony; 11-12-2008 at 02:53 PM.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 01:46 PM
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Dead whales < national security.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 02:46 PM
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Weird stuff.

It's nice to see the Supreme Court not capitulate to the whack job environmentalist. I'm sure during an exercise the whales in the area might be a little confused, but I don't see how it could cause them irrevocable behavioral changes. These people couldn't live without something to be alarmed about. Like the whales are going to stop feeding all together because the Navy conducts some sonar exercises.

It's odd how animal-environmental activists put animals ahead of people and the security of a nation. Or put animals ahead of forging ahead on domestic drilling to become energy dependent, which in turn makes us more safe. I like whales as much as the next guy, but I'll sacrifice one for our safety.

People who think like that make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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At this point, nobody knows for sure what will happen. Hopefully nothing
Considering the fact that we have used sonar for decades, my money is on nothing.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 02:55 PM
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well this is primarily because of recent bush appointments to the supreme court it isn't weight left any longer. However, retirements are coming up soon and it will be left leaning again within the next 4 years.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 02:57 PM
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It's a proven fact that sonar can kill whales. Several times the US Navy owned up to killing then while testing sonar. We aren't dealing with a little ping here, it's 140+db and it's under water. The beached whales sometimes have hemmoraging in their eyes.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP
It's a proven fact that sonar can kill whales. Several times the US Navy owned up to killing then while testing sonar. We aren't dealing with a little ping here, it's 140+db and it's under water. The beached whales sometimes have hemmoraging in their eyes.
it's a proven fact that sonar use to be a nuscence to whales. The navy has since switched to low hz SURTASS LFA, and pings range from 160-215db, HOWEVER, the environmentalists and koolaid drinking whale huggers use these figures and compare them to sonic booms and nuclear blasts - completely ignoring the fact that db underwater has a SUBSTANTIALLY lower reference point compared to surface sound, and is completely blown out of proportion to mislead the uneducated population.

The chief argument of environmentalists is whales get scared of the sound, and surface rapidly getting the bends, or decompression sickness... which happens in nature from a variety of predators, and has never, and will never been proven - it's just a convenient way to find a smoking gun... the argument is flimsy as hell.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 03:05 PM
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Ya'll might have forgotten but this is the same Supreme Court that shot the Washington DC gun ban in the nutz.

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 04:30 PM
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i just want to know how the fuck California was able to pass a law which governs something off it's coast line and why anyone followed it.

that and why the fuck wasn't the supreme court decision 9-0?
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 04:36 PM
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Ya'll might have forgotten but this is the same Supreme Court that shot the Washington DC gun ban in the nutz.
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP
It's a proven fact that sonar can kill whales. Several times the US Navy owned up to killing then while testing sonar. We aren't dealing with a little ping here, it's 140+db and it's under water. The beached whales sometimes have hemmoraging in their eyes.
If sonar killed whales the beaches would be stacked deep with the damn things.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 07:06 PM
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I'm waiting for the day they ban military flying due to the danger it poses to birds. I know I almost take out a couple of them mf'ers every sortie.


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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-12-2008, 08:28 PM
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[communist submarine captain] Alright guys, bust out the vodka. We made it into the 'whale zone' so we're home free. Those politically pussy whipped Americans will never follow us here!!![/]

People need to get real here. The world is not a nice place and you do not give the other side a "home base" from which they can kick our ass. Regardless of whales, though I also think they're bad ass creatures. SCOTUS made the correct decision...
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