Obama wants to bankrupt coal - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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Obama wants to bankrupt coal



His arguement break down though. He said people can run coal plants but it will bankrupt them through the taxes. Then he goes on to say that the tax will raise $billions for alternative energy.

Sorry to break the news to Obama, but if the coal industry goes bankrupt there will not be any money collected from them.
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post #2 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog


His arguement break down though. He said people can run coal plants but it will bankrupt them through the taxes. Then he goes on to say that the tax will raise $billions for alternative energy.

Sorry to break the news to Obama, but if the coal industry goes bankrupt there will not be any money collected from them.
Coal is one of our cheapest and most effective forms of energy, not to mention the folks that would be out of work. He doesn't want nuclear, he doesn't want coal, he doesn't want to drill, he will tax ALL forms of energy...WTF?

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post #3 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 12:29 PM
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See this is the kind of stuff that needs to be put out on the t.v. instead of the stuff McCain has been running .
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post #4 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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See this is the kind of stuff that needs to be put out on the t.v. instead of the stuff McCain has been running .
I agree. McCain's staff sucks uh ....... staff suff. The Blogs are much better at campaigning than the high price politicos.
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post #5 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 01:16 PM
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CREEPY.

What about the jobs and local economies for these regions that get their bread and butter from coal?

I'm laughing at the people who vote for this man. It must suck to be you.

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it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #6 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 05:07 PM
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That's real smart. Let's stop using our most abuntant natural resource in our country. The entire country would be facing blackouts if they shut down coal plants. The Coal Industry is huge business and I doubt any state politican would be caught dead on the wrong side of the line. That would be political suicide.

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post #7 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 06:31 PM
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That's real smart. Let's stop using our most abuntant natural resource in our country. The entire country would be facing blackouts if they shut down coal plants. The Coal Industry is huge business and I doubt any state politican would be caught dead on the wrong side of the line. That would be political suicide.
They won't shut it down, the "trade and cap" crap costs will just be passed on down the line..... to you on your electric bill.
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post #8 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 06:59 PM
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Coal is one of our cheapest and most effective forms of energy, not to mention the folks that would be out of work. He doesn't want nuclear, he doesn't want coal, he doesn't want to drill, he will tax ALL forms of energy...WTF?
He wants renewables. Using 6% of our land for wind energy is enough to power 1.5 Americas!

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post #9 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 07:17 PM
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He wants renewables. Using 6% of our land for wind energy is enough to power 1.5 Americas!

have they solved the problem for long distance transmission of all this magical energy from the viable places for wind corridors to bob and sues place in the city yet?

no?

THEN COAL IT IS DAMNIT!
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post #10 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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He wants renewables. Using 6% of our land for wind energy is enough to power 1.5 Americas!
Do you have a source on that? I find that claim to be very hard to believe.
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post #11 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 07:50 PM
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He wants renewables. Using 6% of our land for wind energy is enough to power 1.5 Americas!

What happens when the wind decides to stop blowing for a few hours? The entire country goes dark. You can produce energy from renewables, but nothing is cheaper or more reliable than coal, natural gas, or nuclear power plants.

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post #12 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 07:53 PM
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Do you have a source on that? I find that claim to be very hard to believe.
U.S Department Of Energy they have a website but i don't feel like looking for the page i found it on. If you want I can post a paper I wrote on the very subject.

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post #13 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 07:55 PM
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have they solved the problem for long distance transmission of all this magical energy from the viable places for wind corridors to bob and sues place in the city yet?

no?

THEN COAL IT IS DAMNIT!
Yes, it involves a battery array and lots of power lines. It cost lots of money but is a solid investment. The array could also hold enough power during off peak times, when wind isn't abyndant, and for during natural disasters.

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post #14 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 07:57 PM
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What happens when the wind decides to stop blowing for a few hours? The entire country goes dark. You can produce energy from renewables, but nothing is cheaper or more reliable than coal, natural gas, or nuclear power plants.
It's not as cheap but it ends up costing between 4 and 6 cents per kilowatt-hour

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post #15 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:01 PM
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It's not as cheap but it ends up costing between 4 and 6 cents per kilowatt-hour

again cite your sources


its fun pulling bs figures out of your ass to bolster your argument. aint it?
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post #16 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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U.S Department Of Energy they have a website but i don't feel like looking for the page i found it on. If you want I can post a paper I wrote on the very subject.
Good you wrote a paper on it. You could just post up the biographical information with the statement as above. Thanks.
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post #17 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:03 PM
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Advantages and Disadvantages of Wind Energy." U.S. Department of Energy. 30 Aug. 2005.
U.S. Department of Energy. 29 Sep. 2008. .

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post #18 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:04 PM
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oops the link didnt copy http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_ad.html

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post #19 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:08 PM
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Yes, it involves a battery array and lots of power lines. It cost lots of money but is a solid investment. The array could also hold enough power during off peak times, when wind isn't abyndant, and for during natural disasters.

i seem to recall this technology being talk about by boone pickens.

he seems to think this will take 10-20yrs to get 20% of the US energy by wind.

i tend to trust this guy, i dunno why is it because he gives a good speech? like obama
Or maybe its because hes putting his money where his mouth is.


hmmm 20(wind)=49%(coal) yea those figures look about even
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post #20 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_potential.html
The United States has enough wind resources to generate electricity for every home and business in the nation. But not all areas are suitable for wind energy development. The Wind Energy Program measures the potential wind energy resources of areas across the United States in order to identify ideal areas for project development.
Not quite the same as "Using 6% of our land for wind energy is enough to power 1.5 Americas", but I am sure that is where you got your infomation.
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post #21 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:11 PM
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affect > effect
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post #22 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:13 PM
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Not quite the same as "Using 6% of our land for wind energy is enough to power 1.5 Americas", but I am sure that is where you got your infomation.
No, I actually think they updated because i can't find the exact quote. I'm still looking though. I have the exact quote in my paper and printed the web page if you would like me to scan it. I think its worth the trouble to show the possibilities

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post #23 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:17 PM
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HTML Code:
Wind Energy Resource Potential
Good wind areas, which cover 6% of the contiguous U.S. land area, have the potential to supply more than one and a half times the current electricity consumption of the United States.
http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=U...icp=1&.intl=us

Got it
Edit: I don't know what's wrong with the site but if you want to see the exact statement search "good wind areas" on yahoo, it's the first one and click the cached one

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post #24 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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post #25 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:43 PM
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http://www.nationalgridus.com/non_ht...ind_policy.pdf

By this article, we will need 1666GW by 2020.
The number could shorten if we invest more in better technology. I'm all for pouring money into the research. It'll pay off anyway in the long run. If the technology gets good enough we can even export energy and become the middle east of wind energy.

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post #26 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 08:56 PM
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The number could shorten if we invest more in better technology. I'm all for pouring money into the research. It'll pay off anyway in the long run. If the technology gets good enough we can even export energy and become the middle east of wind energy.
I'm sure you ARE all for pouring someone else's money into the research, after all it is the Obama way.

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post #27 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 09:01 PM
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I'm sure you ARE all for pouring someone else's money into the research, after all it is the Obama way.

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If money from the government is going to go towards any type of research, I think it should be research for renewable forms of energy.

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post #28 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 09:07 PM
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If money from the government is going to go towards any type of research, I think it should be research for renewable forms of energy.
Of course you do, after all it is free money from the government, amIright?

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post #29 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 09:14 PM
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Of course you do, after all it is free money from the government, amIright?

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I think since a large amount of the general population isn't aware of the severity of the problem, the gov should take the lead in exploring renewables. Other countries already have and we're falling behind. Call it what you want, I don't care as long as ideas get put into practice.

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post #30 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 09:44 PM
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I think since a large amount of the general population isn't aware of the severity of the problem, the gov should take the lead in exploring renewables. Other countries already have and we're falling behind. Call it what you want, I don't care as long as ideas get put into practice.
OK lets go for what works in France... Nuclear Power!

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post #31 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 09:53 PM
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OK lets go for what works in France... Nuclear Power!
And do what about the waste? Wind power is the most effect, because it is both environmentally friendly and efficient.

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post #32 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 10:08 PM
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So much for energy independence.

There's a study out there that shows wind is only 8.7% reliable during peak times.
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Closer to home, last year the Electric Reliability Council of Texas reported that wind power could be counted on as being reliable just 8.7 percent of the time during periods of peak demand. Say that again: 8.7 percent reliability for a trillion-dollar investment? Yes. And we would still to have to build more conventional generation plants to cover our future electrical needs — to cover that 91.3 percent of the time when there isn’t enough wind to generate electricity.
http://www.windaction.org/opinions/16852

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post #33 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 10:09 PM
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I think since a large amount of the general population isn't aware of the severity of the problem, the gov should take the lead in exploring renewables. Other countries already have and we're falling behind. Call it what you want, I don't care as long as ideas get put into practice.
Hey, I'm all for it, lets fire up the federal printing press, print a few hundred billion dollars, and hand it out to who ever wants it in the name of research.

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post #34 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 10:38 PM
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Hey, I'm all for it, lets fire up the federal printing press, print a few hundred billion dollars, and hand it out to who ever wants it in the name of research.

Stevo
What do you suggest we do? What we have been doing is working great and is getting worse. Looking at an energy switch as unrealistic or naive is not the way to fix our nation's problem

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post #35 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sc281_99-0135
i seem to recall this technology being talk about by boone pickens.

he seems to think this will take 10-20yrs to get 20% of the US energy by wind.

i tend to trust this guy, i dunno why is it because he gives a good speech? like obama
Or maybe its because hes putting his money where his mouth is.


hmmm 20(wind)=49%(coal) yea those figures look about even
The only money pickens is laing out is coming from taxpayers and imminent domain theft. He's a fucking crook.
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post #36 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-02-2008, 11:33 PM
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What do you suggest we do? What we have been doing is working great and is getting worse. Looking at an energy switch as unrealistic or naive is not the way to fix our nation's problem
What problem? The artificial market? The nonsense regulations? The illogical belief that current sources can't be utilized more effectively, like putting a nuke on a coal seam for gassification and synthetic production?

Yeah, I know, nukes are so bad, Jimmy Carter said so. After walking through 3-mile island the day after the fire. That was after a stint on the cleanup crew at the chalk river "meltdown" (the core lost a coolant feed). Too bad they it did nothing bad for his health. He could have been a martyr for the cause. Amazing how someone with a BS in physics from 1946, and one non-credit pre-empt course on nuclear power in 1953 was able to convince the worlkd that he knew the field better than people who had spent their lifetimes in it and who had considerably more up-to-date knowledge. Hell, he left the navy before the first nuke sub was launched.

Then there is fusion research. Brussard's company is doing far better on a shoestring budget and private funding than ITER with it's billions in international government funding.

If you lived through this same thing in the seventies you'll know the real solution was a simple executive order, the first official act of president reagan after swearing in in 1981. With the stroke of a pen he deregulated the oil and gas industry. Slowly, the hurdles and red tape have reappeared.
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post #37 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 5point0pony
What do you suggest we do? What we have been doing is working great and is getting worse. Looking at an energy switch as unrealistic or naive is not the way to fix our nation's problem
Nuclear energy, coal-to-petroleum conversion research, methane hydrate harvesting, off-shore and Alaskan Northern Slope drilling and tighter regulation of oil and energy futures trading.

Wind power isn't the answer, just as solar isn't the answer. Battery technology isn't there, and will not be there for a very long time, to store enough energy for large populations, and having our energy being supplied by a fickle Mother Nature, if even a low percentage, isn't the best of ideas.

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post #38 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 12:49 AM
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Uranium > *

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post #39 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 04:58 AM Thread Starter
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And do what about the waste? Wind power is the most effect, because it is both environmentally friendly and efficient.
France has the answer to waste too. They recycle the fuel and strip out the waste, which is just a small fraction of what we currently throw away after use. The US throws away 95% of the usable uranium with the waste material. I wonder why people think nuclear energy creates abunch of waste.

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To create power, reactor fuel must contain 3-5 percent burnable uranium. Once the burnable uranium falls below that level, the fuel must be replaced. But this “spent” fuel generally retains about 95 percent of the uranium it started with, and that uranium can be recycled.

Over the past four decades, America’s reactors have produced about 56,000 tons of used fuel. That “waste” contains roughly enough energy to power every U.S. household for 12 years. And it’s just sitting there, piling up at power plant storage facilities. Talk about waste!

The sad thing is, the United States developed the technology to recapture that energy decades ago, then barred its commercial use in 1977. We have practiced a virtual moratorium ever since.

Other countries have not taken such a backward approach to nuclear power. France, whose 59 reactors generate 80 percent of its electricity, has safely recycled nuclear fuel for decades. They turned to nuclear power in the 1970s to limit their dependence on foreign energy. And, from the beginning, they made recycling used fuel central to their program.
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post #40 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 05:56 AM
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This guy is so fucking clueless.

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post #41 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sc281_99-0135
i seem to recall this technology being talk about by boone pickens.

he seems to think this will take 10-20yrs to get 20% of the US energy by wind.

i tend to trust this guy, i dunno why is it because he gives a good speech? like obama
Or maybe its because hes putting his money where his mouth is.


hmmm 20(wind)=49%(coal) yea those figures look about even
Pickens talks about it because the switch will maximize the benefit to his back pocket.

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post #42 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 06:47 AM
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By figures I found, there are about 260,000 jobs directly related to the coal industry. I thought Barry was going to "create" jobs, not put folks out of work.

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post #43 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 06:52 AM
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By figures I found, there are about 260,000 jobs directly related to the coal industry. I thought Barry was going to "create" jobs, not put folks out of work.
He plans on bringing in Burger King, Popeyes, McDonalds and Taco Bell to a huge job fair for these people.

Re-train, FTW!

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post #44 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 07:09 AM
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Not only will Obama bankrupt an industry he'll bankrupt states like West Virginia.

$70 million in property tax, $214 million in coal severance tax, pays 2 billion in payroll in West Virginia and 3.5 billion of the state's GDP.

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post #45 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 07:15 AM
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He plans on bringing in Burger King, Popeyes, McDonalds and Taco Bell to a huge job fair for these people.

Re-train, FTW!
LMAO at 1,700 new Taco Bells in the Appalachian's!

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post #46 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 08:52 AM
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The process of separating the uranium isotopes is difficult and substantially increases the cost of nuclear power, not to mention another risk of an accident. Coal is just flat out out-dated. I'm not saying we haven't made significant strides to perfect these sources, but we have better options. At the same time I'm not saying wind and solar are the solutions to al the worlds problems. All options should be looked at, but at the moment renewables are have the most possibilities. We're falling behind and are looking like fools with attitudes like "drill drill drill." We've always taken pride in being at the front of the pack, yet right now were falling behind as we argue about this. As Thomas Friedman said "being green is the most American thing we can do"

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post #47 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5point0pony
The process of separating the uranium isotopes is difficult and substantially increases the cost of nuclear power, not to mention another risk of an accident. Coal is just flat out out-dated. I'm not saying we haven't made significant strides to perfect these sources, but we have better options. At the same time I'm not saying wind and solar are the solutions to al the worlds problems. All options should be looked at, but at the moment renewables are have the most possibilities. We're falling behind and are looking like fools with attitudes like "drill drill drill." We've always taken pride in being at the front of the pack, yet right now were falling behind as we argue about this. As Thomas Friedman said "being green is the most American thing we can do"
So we should just bankrupt the entire industry?

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post #48 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5point0pony
The process of separating the uranium isotopes is difficult and substantially increases the cost of nuclear power, not to mention another risk of an accident. Coal is just flat out out-dated. I'm not saying we haven't made significant strides to perfect these sources, but we have better options. At the same time I'm not saying wind and solar are the solutions to al the worlds problems. All options should be looked at, but at the moment renewables are have the most possibilities. We're falling behind and are looking like fools with attitudes like "drill drill drill." We've always taken pride in being at the front of the pack, yet right now were falling behind as we argue about this. As Thomas Friedman said "being green is the most American thing we can do"
There may be better options than coal but you don't implement them with idiotic legislation.

Want to see what legislation will do? Just look at the what happened with low-sulphur diesel, it's a clusterfuck. That's where this idiot and his energy ideas are going to put us.

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post #49 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
So we should just bankrupt the entire industry?
Again, it's obviously more complicated than "Hey lets use wind energy, build the turbines today and implement it tomorrow." I am saying that we need to make a plan for a smooth transition. Using coal simply because 260,000 people (I'm only using this number because it's been used i this discussion already) are directly tied to it is counterproductive. Since other countries have already made transitions (Denmark uses wind energy for 1/5 of its energy), we have blueprints to perfect for our own system.

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post #50 of 108 (permalink) Old 11-03-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5point0pony
We're falling behind and are looking like fools with attitudes like "drill drill drill."
Yeah, lets just leave the shit in the ground, instead of using the technology that we have now to get more energy. Lets spend trillions to discover new sources of energy, instead of using the technology we have now and capitalize on what we have in the ground. Which is more foolish, just because you don't want to 'drill drill drill'?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 5point0pony
As Thomas Friedman said "being green is the most American thing we can do"
Being green doesn't have jack fucking shit to do with being American. Take that Al Gore crap and shove it.

Next you will be quoting Biden saying it is our American duty to pay higher taxes, to fund all of your silly ideas.


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