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post #1 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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Share the wealth!

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826

If you haven't read Atlas Shrugged... you must. It is required reading for all you Obamites to discuss money with me.

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post #2 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:02 PM
 
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Interesting read. I'll have to pick that up from the bookstore this weekend.

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post #3 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:05 PM
 
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Hmmm.. I'll have to pick up or have Weslie just read it to me. LOL Jk, Weslie.
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post #4 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:07 PM
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Fucking Christ lol...This paragraph stuck out to me!!!

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.
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post #5 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826

If you haven't read Atlas Shrugged... you must. It is required reading for all you Obamites to discuss money with me.

Over blown and over written. I could have shot her for the 60 page rant at the end. Fountainhead FTW!
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post #6 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Weslie
Interesting read. I'll have to pick that up from the bookstore this weekend.

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What's great, if you are into business building and finances it is a surprisingly good read. Uses the fictitious story to teach basic principles.

I think it continues to be the best book written by Mrs. Rand although The Fountainhead is a close second for me.

She was born in Russia and rejected collectivism of the Russian culture. She left Russia in 1925 by telling the officials she was going to visit relatives in America and never returned.

Huge champion of individualism as well.

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post #7 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Over blown and over written. I could have shot her for the 60 page rant at the end. Fountainhead FTW!
Now, now. Think of it in context of where she was coming from.

As far as Fountainhead... see above post.

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post #8 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Now, now. Think of it in context of where she was coming from.

As far as Fountainhead... see above post.

Yes, it does a great job of outlining her philosophy and I understand her reasoning and it is sound on a simplistic and individual level. Personally I have some philisophical differences with objectivism. But putting that from a literary standpoint the book is a bore. And the symbolism of the names insults your intelligence. Fountainhead is a better piece of literature.

I mean L. Ron Hubbards Battlefield Earth does a good job of introducing the tenets of scientology, but sucks as a book because it loses the narative in order to prove the point.
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post #9 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Now, now. Think of it in context of where she was coming from.

As far as Fountainhead... see above post.

Besides in my head as I was reading it Dominique was hotter than Dagny...
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post #10 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1fastdem
Yes, it does a great job of outlining her philosophy and I understand her reasoning and it is sound on a simplistic and individual level. Personally I have some philisophical differences with objectivism. But putting that from a literary standpoint the book is a bore. And the symbolism of the names insults your intelligence. Fountainhead is a better piece of literature.

I mean L. Ron Hubbards Battlefield Earth does a good job of introducing the tenets of scientology, but sucks as a book because it loses the narative in order to prove the point.
Well, of course you think Atlas Shrugged sucked. You wouldn't be a liberal democrat if you think it was good!

Liberal democrats, who are willing to be correct about their thoughts of money, will realize money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. The more valuable your goods, the more money you can make, the more valuable goods you can exchange your money for. Money isn't the end it is a means to the end.

Rich people get richer because they have a different plan than most (which has been my overlying theme on DFWStangs for the past 6 years.) Rich people think differently. Rich people act differently. The poor are poor because they look at money is the end. They think poor, they are poor.

Money is a commodity. There are times in life I hoard it (like now) and there are times I spend it with what can be consider reckless abandon.

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post #11 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:35 PM
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an old bez partner of mine once said " rich people do what poor people are too damn lazy to do " while a rich guy works till 10 at night the poor folks go home after 8 and drink beer, watch nascar and complain about rich folks.

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post #12 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubbaearl
an old bez partner of mine once said " rich people do what poor people are too damn lazy to do " while a rich guy works till 10 at night the poor folks go home after 8 and drink beer, watch nascar and complain about rich folks.
I do not agree with that statement. I know a few poor people that work extremely hard and work mutliple jobs for their family. Poor life choices/work choices may lead them to be poor not just laziness.
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post #13 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NaSSty Nate
I do not agree with that statement. I know a few poor people that work extremely hard and work mutliple jobs for their family. Poor life choices/work choices may lead them to be poor not just laziness.
Agreed. Good point.
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post #14 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:55 PM
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Agreed. Good point.
Hey now stop it...we can't have people on here thinking you and I agree on anything here sparky!
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post #15 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:57 PM
 
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Hey now stop it...we can't have people on here thinking you and I agree on anything here sparky!
That's the only reason I quoted you. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity.
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post #16 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 01:59 PM
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That's the only reason I quoted you. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity.
That's bull and we both know it.
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post #17 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 02:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Well, of course you think Atlas Shrugged sucked. You wouldn't be a liberal democrat if you think it was good!

Liberal democrats, who are willing to be correct about their thoughts of money, will realize money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. The more valuable your goods, the more money you can make, the more valuable goods you can exchange your money for. Money isn't the end it is a means to the end.

Rich people get richer because they have a different plan than most (which has been my overlying theme on DFWStangs for the past 6 years.) Rich people think differently. Rich people act differently. The poor are poor because they look at money is the end. They think poor, they are poor.

Money is a commodity. There are times in life I hoard it (like now) and there are times I spend it with what can be consider reckless abandon.
Actually my issues with objectivism center more on the roles of religion, and the state. Not about the use of money as a commodity used to help simplify the trade of value. And I agree with one of her main points in the big speach: "To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason, Purpose, Self-esteem."

I think you would have a hard time classifying me as a liberal Dem. If you read several days ago what I thought Obama should do in office especially his 1st year you'd know that. I just happen to believe on a personal faith level that I am a steward of the things I have. Not the end user/owner. There are very few things I have true ownership of -the knowledge I've gained and my relationships with my Heavenly Father, his Son and my own family - that's it. (Notice I did not say of them but of the relationship.) In my view I have a responsibility for the rest. I have enough for my needs and I need no more. Sure I want more (finishing the engine and getting a nitrous kit on it would be first) And those things I work towards. But I am not against progressive taxation.

Spoiler alert - If you want to read the book stop here...

You also asked me to look at the context it was written in so let's do that. It was written at a time when Communism was sweeping the globe and had adherants here in the US. Objectivism was a needed thought then when much of the world thought communism was the answer. Atlas Shrugged took, to an extreme degree, the idea of the US turning communist. The novel idea in the book was of men of industry going on strike. I liked the idea and it was a smart twist. The last 50 years has shown that communism doesn't work because of something very similiar. No one innovates or improves without receiving value in return. So I keep with my point that on a simple level she is right. communism/fascism = fail.
Now on a literary issue... any book that has a single character speak uninterrupted for 58 pages (in my edition) is a bore. Especially since every point had been made at different time earlier in the book. And yes I counted!
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post #18 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 02:22 PM
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Imagine that, a person who grew up in a Communist/Socialist nation knows it was horseshit. It's funny how that seems to happen.
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post #19 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 02:33 PM
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no one is born to be poor. you make choices . from education to the path you choose to follow in life. it's entirely up to you where you go. you have no one to blame but yourself .

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post #20 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1fastdem
Sure I want more (finishing the engine and getting a nitrous kit on it would be first) And those things I work towards. But I am not against progressive taxation.
We all have different goals in life.

A finished engine and nitrous kit would be really far down my list.

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post #21 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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Now on a literary issue... any book that has a single character speak uninterrupted for 58 pages (in my edition) is a bore. Especially since every point had been made at different time earlier in the book. And yes I counted!

Really? You must really get tired of the orator named Obama then!

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post #22 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:11 PM
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Another good read is "How we survived Communism and even Laughed"

http://www.amazon.com/How-Survived-C.../dp/0060975407


It focused on the day-to-day failures of socialism, rather than overarching philosophy. Just the simple failures like how supermarkets have nothing in them but jars of grape jelly. Or how the collectives washing machine is broken, yet no one fixes it, because since its the collectives property, no one feels ownership/responsibility to fix it.
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post #23 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Really? You must really get tired of the orator named Obama then!

All the pauses, ahhs, and such really help me out. It's like he's pacing himself.

and about the list... Maybe I am just farther along my list than you are. Don't worry you'll get there.... (ps - still working on how to do sarcasm in here.)
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post #24 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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All the pauses, ahhs, and such really help me out. It's like he's pacing himself.

and about the list... Maybe I am just farther along my list than you are. Don't worry you'll get there.... (ps - still working on how to do sarcasm in here.)
Just a different list. My is fairly complete.

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post #25 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:32 PM
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no one is born to be poor. you make choices . from education to the path you choose to follow in life. it's entirely up to you where you go. you have no one to blame but yourself .
here here!

Last edited by sc281_99-0135; 09-09-2009 at 06:51 PM.
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post #26 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 03:50 PM
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post #27 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 05:34 PM
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no one is born to be poor. you make choices . from education to the path you choose to follow in life. it's entirely up to you where you go. you have no one to blame but yourself .
Maybe in utopia.

Here in the real world people who are not born into a wealthy family have an uphill battle. I am not saying it is not possible to become rich from being poor but if you are a black male, born to a mother who is addicted to crack and whose father is locked up for life for distribution of crack what do you think your chances are of becoming rich versus the white male who is born to parents who own a profitable business ?


There is no way in hell the two kids above have the same exact chance of becoming rich.





The rich control the world. In the 1800's we had slaves and nothing has changed much as we still have wage slaves today.





"You will never become rich working for someone else "
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post #28 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 06:01 PM
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Maybe in utopia.

Here in the real world people who are not born into a wealthy family have an uphill battle. I am not saying it is not possible to become rich from being poor but if you are a black male, born to a mother who is addicted to crack and whose father is locked up for life for distribution of crack what do you think your chances are of becoming rich versus the white male who is born to parents who own a profitable business ?


There is no way in hell the two kids above have the same exact chance of becoming rich.





The rich control the world. In the 1800's we had slaves and nothing has changed much as we still have wage slaves today.





"You will never become rich working for someone else "

do you want some cheese with that whine?

quit playing the " everyones against me" card

look at most people who have succeeded in life, they werent bred into it

they busted their asses, took risks, lost money, but ultimately came out on top.

this is the problem with people, they never ask what you can do for yourself, instead they ask what others are gonna do for you because of your such and such circumstances

quit complaining and crying foul, get up off your ass and get to it!


(post was directed at all whiners and lazy asses, not just you)
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post #29 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 32VfromHell
Another good read is "How we survived Communism and even Laughed"

http://www.amazon.com/How-Survived-C.../dp/0060975407


It focused on the day-to-day failures of socialism, rather than overarching philosophy. Just the simple failures like how supermarkets have nothing in them but jars of grape jelly. Or how the collectives washing machine is broken, yet no one fixes it, because since its the collectives property, no one feels ownership/responsibility to fix it.
I have read some bits from that book...good read. However, 99% of Americans are too damn lazy to read and just base their lives on what they see on TV...

Too bad they will be able to afford the Digital TV boxes coming next year. A few months without TV would be a huge improvement for the US citizen.



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post #30 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubbaearl
no one is born to be poor. you make choices . from education to the path you choose to follow in life. it's entirely up to you where you go. you have no one to blame but yourself .
So the poor Kenyan kid living in his mud-hut in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, had the same opportunity as I did here in the States to go to k-12 and college? Where planet do you live on?
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post #31 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 06:17 PM
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So the poor Kenyan kid in his mud-hut in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, had the same opportunity as I did here to go to k-12 and college? Where planet do you live on?

america, were talking about america.

if your gonna whine about your problems instead of using them to your advantage, ill be happy to go trade you for one of those kenyans. at least theyll be grateful for the oppurtunity.


edit thought you were bullet
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post #32 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bullet
Maybe in utopia.

Here in the real world people who are not born into a wealthy family have an uphill battle. I am not saying it is not possible to become rich from being poor but if you are a black male, born to a mother who is addicted to crack and whose father is locked up for life for distribution of crack what do you think your chances are of becoming rich versus the white male who is born to parents who own a profitable business ?

There is no way in hell the two kids above have the same exact chance of becoming rich.

The rich control the world. In the 1800's we had slaves and nothing has changed much as we still have wage slaves today.

"You will never become rich working for someone else "
LOL.

Dear Lord, take the extremes. Democraps love that shit.

So, Bullet, tell me what percentage of black youth are born to crack addicted mothers and fathers in prison for distribution?

Not every white kid is born into a world of mommy and daddy owning business either. What is the percentage there?

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post #33 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 06:56 PM
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somebody call a waaaambulance for these whiners . this country is full of welfare kids who made good . nobody is going to hand it to you or pay you for whining and bitching.

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somebody call a waaaambulance for these whiners . this country is full of welfare kids who made good . nobody is going to hand it to you or pay you for whining and bitching.
ur smrt.
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post #35 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 10:14 PM
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america, were talking about america.

if your gonna whine about your problems instead of using them to your advantage, ill be happy to go trade you for one of those kenyans. at least theyll be grateful for the oppurtunity.


edit thought you were bullet




So the poor black kid living in compton can go to college after the republican party has cut the majority of financial aid in order to finance another war ?
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post #36 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 10:21 PM
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LOL.

Dear Lord, take the extremes. Democraps love that shit.

So, Bullet, tell me what percentage of black youth are born to crack addicted mothers and fathers in prison for distribution?

Not every white kid is born into a world of mommy and daddy owning business either. What is the percentage there?



This is the land of opportunity but you are either blind or just ignorant if you believe the odds are the same for everyone to make it to the top.


I can tell you the % is much higher than in a white family for both drug addiction and father being incarcerated.


Let me guess, you are going to use obama as an example here.
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post #37 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 10:25 PM
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So the poor black kid living in compton can go to college after the republican party has cut the majority of financial aid in order to finance another war ?
Yes but he has to get a job. I know that is scary and he won't be able to major in art history but those are the breaks. He might even have to work at McDonald's or even dig shit out of a toilet.

If you aren't successful in this country and you also aren't retarded, you only have one person to blame and that is you. Any excuse you make is plain bullshit and rationalizes why you are a lazy fuck.

It really is just that simple.
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post #38 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 10:50 PM
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Yes but he has to get a job. I know that is scary and he won't be able to major in art history but those are the breaks. He might even have to work at McDonald's or even dig shit out of a toilet.

If you aren't successful in this country and you also aren't retarded, you only have one person to blame and that is you. Any excuse you make is plain bullshit and rationalizes why you are a lazy fuck.

It really is just that simple.


Sounds good but let's suppose he gets a job at McDonalds making 6.55 an hour. Working 40 hours a week he will make $13,624, out of that $1,042 will go to ss and another $550 will go to tax. This leaves him with $12,032. Considering a cheap college will run him $3500 a semester plus another $500 for books, so $8,000 a year to pay for college. This leaves him with $4,032 /12 or $336 a month for rent, insurance, gas, and food.

Do you know anyone who lives off of $336 a month and can pay all of those items ?


You say it is all about choices, but did that kid choose to be born black and poor to a crack addicted mother and a father in prison ?


Even if the kid graduates college, he will find the odds against him in the corporate world as well due to something he had no choice over.




FWIW, I actually am actually friends with a black guy who this story relates to. He was able to overcome the obstacles but not by using his brain. He just happened to be born big and grew up to be 6'5 350 so he got out of the ghetto due to a white nfl team owner needing his services. All of his old buddies call him a sellout because he got out while they are still trapped in the hood.


Choice has a lot to do with where you get in life but luck and destiny still play some part.
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post #39 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:05 PM
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Sounds good but let's suppose he gets a job at McDonalds making 6.55 an hour. Working 40 hours a week he will make $13,624, out of that $1,042 will go to ss and another $550 will go to tax. This leaves him with $12,032. Considering a cheap college will run him $3500 a semester plus another $500 for books, so $8,000 a year to pay for college. This leaves him with $4,032 /12 or $336 a month for rent, insurance, gas, and food.

Do you know anyone who lives off of $336 a month and can pay all of those items ?


You say it is all about choices, but did that kid choose to be born black and poor to a crack addicted mother and a father in prison ?


Even if the kid graduates college, he will find the odds against him in the corporate world as well due to something he had no choice over.
I like how student loans, credit cards and other things don't exist in your vacuum tight scenario. I know a white kid who graduated college with about $30K in debt, after many semesters as a full time student and full time employee. Didn't get a single scholarship or grant either. Guess who that is.

You can sit all day and make up little scenarios as to why things don't work on paper. Like I said, if you want something bad enough in this country you are free to go get it. Or you are free to lay around on your ass wallowing in your own filth and making excuses as to why the world is so unfair. Guess which one of those I did. Guess why I feel not a bit of guilt when my fat ass paycheck hits my bank account (it just did). It's because all those nights where I went to bed at 3am and got up at 8am for class paid off. Stop making bullshit excuses for people and enabling their laziness.
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post #40 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:07 PM
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"You will never become rich working for someone else "
This is another bunch of bullshit right here.
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post #41 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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This is the land of opportunity but you are either blind or just ignorant if you believe the odds are the same for everyone to make it to the top.


I can tell you the % is much higher than in a white family for both drug addiction and father being incarcerated.


Let me guess, you are going to use obama as an example here.
Did I say everyone had an equal footing? No.

But, yes, the opportunity is there for any and everyone in this country.

Glad to see you can't back your shit up once again.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
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post #42 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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FWIW, I actually am actually friends with a black guy who this story relates to. He was able to overcome the obstacles but not by using his brain. He just happened to be born big and grew up to be 6'5 350 so he got out of the ghetto due to a white nfl team owner needing his services. All of his old buddies call him a sellout because he got out while they are still trapped in the hood.
WOW! Cool! I'm friends with a black guy who grew up in the 5th ward of Houston.

He put himself through college and law school.

He's a partner with one of the big four accounting firms.

His mom was a single mom and raised him and his two sisters working two jobs. Didn't matter if his dad was in jail or not he was never around. He also didn't play football.

Next?

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post #43 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P
I like how student loans, credit cards and other things don't exist in your vacuum tight scenario. I know a white kid who graduated college with about $30K in debt, after many semesters as a full time student and full time employee. Didn't get a single scholarship or grant either. Guess who that is.

You can sit all day and make up little scenarios as to why things don't work on paper. Like I said, if you want something bad enough in this country you are free to go get it. Or you are free to lay around on your ass wallowing in your own filth and making excuses as to why the world is so unfair. Guess which one of those I did. Guess why I feel not a bit of guilt when my fat ass paycheck hits my bank account (it just did). It's because all those nights where I went to bed at 3am and got up at 8am for class paid off. Stop making bullshit excuses for people and enabling their laziness.


Other things like ? Mommy and daddy paying for the education ? Credit is not near as easy to get for someone who just turned 18 and has no credit history. The financial aid system is screwed up. I know a white family with 3 kids, 2 who were in college that only made 30k a year with only one parent working and none of the kids even qualifed under the current system. On the other hand my aunt and uncle made around 90k and only had 1 kid in college and she got pell grants every single semester.
You must live in utopia. Not everyone can be what they want to be. If that was true everyone would be rich then and there would be no one left to do the work. I'm not making excuses but you are out of touch without reality saying everyone has the same exact probability of being what they want to be regardless of color, wealth and intelligence.
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post #44 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
WOW! Cool! I'm friends with a black guy who grew up in the 5th ward of Houston.

He put himself through college and law school.

He's a partner with one of the big four accounting firms.

His mom was a single mom and raised him and his two sisters working two jobs. Didn't matter if his dad was in jail or not he was never around. He also didn't play football.

Next?

And the other 800 blacks in his graduating class ?


Statistics say 37% of the males from that class will end up in prison at some time.
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post #45 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:29 PM
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But, yes, the opportunity is there for any and everyone in this country.

.


To do what ?
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post #46 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Not everyone can be what they want to be. If that was true everyone would be rich then and there would be no one left to do the work.
No... just like everyone cannot play in the NFL... not everyone can make it to the top of the Corporate echelons.

Some just don't have what it takes. To think otherwise is just plain ignorant.

The world needs ditch diggers too.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
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post #47 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullet
Other things like ? Mommy and daddy paying for the education ? Credit is not near as easy to get for someone who just turned 18 and has no credit history. The financial aid system is screwed up. I know a white family with 3 kids, 2 who were in college that only made 30k a year with only one parent working and none of the kids even qualifed under the current system. On the other hand my aunt and uncle made around 90k and only had 1 kid in college and she got pell grants every single semester.
You must live in utopia. Not everyone can be what they want to be. If that was true everyone would be rich then and there would be no one left to do the work. I'm not making excuses but you are out of touch without reality saying everyone has the same exact probability of being what they want to be regardless of color, wealth and intelligence.
Fucking idiot.
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post #48 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:36 PM
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This is another bunch of bullshit right here.
Perhaps your definiton of rich is different than mine.
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post #49 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:37 PM
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Fucking idiot.
learning a lot there at tu I see.
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post #50 of 108 (permalink) Old 10-30-2008, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bullet
learning a lot there at tu I see.
Yeah, it was all paid for by my parents, a kid can't work his way through school and make it in this country. Tell me how my parents helped pay my way through undergrad and it's because of private financial help that I'm now at a tier 1 MBA program.
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