Internet Censorship is On it's Way. The i-Patriot Act - DFWstangs Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Internet Censorship is On it's Way. The i-Patriot Act

http://www.yff365.com/profiles/blog/...logPost%3A5863

Quote:
There’s going to be an i-9/11 event. Which doesn’t necessarily mean an Al Qaeda attack, it means an event where the instability or the insecurity of the internet becomes manifest during a malicious event which then inspires the government into a response. You’ve got to remember that after 9/11 the government drew up the Patriot Act within 20 days and it was passed.

The Patriot Act is huge and I remember someone asking a Justice Department official how did they write such a large statute so quickly, and of course the answer was that it has been sitting in the drawers of the Justice Department for the last 20 years waiting for the event where they would pull it out.
Believe it or not?

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 12:53 PM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Well, since I read it on the internet, I'm going with "not".


David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 12:57 PM
T5-T56-Tremec specialist
 
thesource's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Heading back to Plentywood
Posts: 8,389
Sure why not .......... little by little the government is taking away our freedoms anyways .
thesource is offline  
 
post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 01:07 PM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesource
Sure why not .......... little by little the government is taking away our freedoms anyways .

See "The 2nd Amendment".


David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 05:07 PM
Lifer
 
futant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 1,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesource
Sure why not .......... little by little the government is taking away our freedoms anyways .
It's freedom. not freedoms.

79 K5 blazer, 6" lift 38x15" tires d44/12b lockers and chromoly axles ,6.2L GM diesel - Waste Vegetable Oil conversion - cross over steering,14"SAW nitrogen shocks, beefed shackles, shackle flip, winch/ bumpers, diff covers.

94 CBR 600 naked, handbraked, -1 +3 sprockets, one wheel operation mod

"I'm sorry, nothing quite says, "F- You, I'm from Texas" like an all-business, stripped-down K5."
futant is offline  
post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 06:32 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
The Patriot Act would have never passed before 9/11. I find it funny people can only see in hind sight. Just like this War on Terror... everyone is bitching about it, but how many acts have occurred on our soil since? How many plans have been foiled?

I'm thankful for every day my family has slept soundly since 9/11.

Now if there's another tragic event and it could have been prevented with help from the Patriot Act, who is going to complain?

You people are confusing Freedom with Security. I've got nothing to hide in my postings, email, phone calls, etc. that I think the government ought not to see.

If you don't like out National Security, I hear Darfur is taking citizens.
Denny is offline  
post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 06:56 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
The Patriot Act would have never passed before 9/11. I find it funny people can only see in hind sight. Just like this War on Terror... everyone is bitching about it, but how many acts have occurred on our soil since? How many plans have been foiled?

I'm thankful for every day my family has slept soundly since 9/11.

Now if there's another tragic event and it could have been prevented with help from the Patriot Act, who is going to complain?

You people are confusing Freedom with Security. I've got nothing to hide in my postings, email, phone calls, etc. that I think the government ought not to see.

If you don't like out National Security, I hear Darfur is taking citizens.
Well, if I'll say anything on this subject, it will be this:
The Patriot Act would have never passed before 9/11. I find it funny people can only see in hind sight. Just like this War on Terror... everyone is bitching about it, but how many acts have occurred on our soil since? How many plans have been foiled?

I'm thankful for every day my family has slept soundly since 9/11.

Now if there's another tragic event and it could have been prevented with help from the Patriot Act, who is going to complain?

You people are confusing Freedom with Security. I've got nothing to hide in my postings, email, phone calls, etc. that I think the government ought not to see.

If you don't like out National Security, I hear Darfur is taking citizens.


Good post Denny!

David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
The Patriot Act would have never passed before 9/11. I find it funny people can only see in hind sight. Just like this War on Terror... everyone is bitching about it, but how many acts have occurred on our soil since? How many plans have been foiled?

I'm thankful for every day my family has slept soundly since 9/11.

Now if there's another tragic event and it could have been prevented with help from the Patriot Act, who is going to complain?

You people are confusing Freedom with Security. I've got nothing to hide in my postings, email, phone calls, etc. that I think the government ought not to see.

If you don't like out National Security, I hear Darfur is taking citizens.

What funny about your statement, it goes against everything in your sig.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:04 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
What funny about your statement, it goes against everything in your sig.

Not at all. His sig is referring to Freedom.
His argument is about censorship of freedom or infringement of freedom.

The Patriot Act doesn't infringe upon your freedom to write or speak freely, as you wish whenever you wish, about any topic you want. Your argument would suggest that traffic cops infringe upon your freedom to drive, yet they are only there to protect the good from the bad drivers (innocent from evil doers, if you will).

And, at what point would we/you want [our government] to start taking drastic measures to stop terrorist from attacking us? When 3000 of our brothers & sisters, mothers, fathers and children have been slaughtered in a vicious attack on OUR SOIL?


David

Last edited by cobrajet69; 08-07-2008 at 08:32 AM.
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajet69
Not at all. His sig is referring to Freedom.
His argument is about censorship of freedom or infringement of freedom.

The Patriot Act doesn't infringe upon your freedom to write or speak freely, as you wish whenever you wish, about any topic you want. Your argument would suggest that traffic cops infringe upon you freedom to drive, yet they are only there to protect the good from the bad drivers (innocent from evil doers, if you will).
Fourth Amendment?

[Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You can not just pick and choose which rights and freedoms you support and don't support. If you champion one, you have to champion them all. You can't be high and mighty on the 4th and let the government slowly errode the 5th in the name of terror.

Quote:
And, at what point would we/you want [our government] to start taking drastic measures to stop terrorist from attacking us? When 3000 of our brothers & sisters, mothers, fathers and children have been slaughtered in a vicious attack on OUR SOIL?


David
We did just fine when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

2009 Night train

Last edited by Gripenfelter; 08-07-2008 at 10:38 AM.
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #11 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:27 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,478
Your all sheep.
98COBRA#770 is offline  
post #12 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:29 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
Fifth Amendment?

[Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You can not just pick and choose which rights and freedoms you support and don't support. If you champion one, you have to champion them all.



We did just fine when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
In this post, you have a decent argument, but.... (note highlighted text)

Do you not think 9/11 was probable cause? And yes, you are correct, we did do just fine at Pear Harbor but this isn't your grandfathers war, and might alone will not win this war.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.


David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #13 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:06 AM
Lifer
 
Mustangman_2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: D/FW
Posts: 8,912
This is a very complex and dynamic issue. And it's not simply about Homeland Security. That is a very small aspect of this argument.

There are issues such as net neutrality, intellectual property rights enforcement, cybercrimes, and policing social networking sites. Most people polled wish there to be a criminal consequence for harassment and exploitation over the internet.

One of the primary reasons the internet will eventually become regulated is because it is the largest public utility on the planet. The FCC will in time begin to regulate it just as it does radio and television.

As a former Verizon employee, I can tell you there are already high level talks in the industry to call for regulation over the internet for VOIP networks. As VOIP becomes more and more pervasive and the traditional POTS lines fade away, there is a chance that even an ISP will become regulated as it will be an adjunct of the telephone companies.

The argument of Homeland Security factors maybe 10% of the debate and movement towards regulation.

And at the end of the day, a situation like "i-Patriot Act" will still be transparent to those who are law biding citizens and have nothing to hide. However, there is a part of me that is ambivalent about the big brother internet thing. I'm on the bubble. I like the fact that there is still something left in the world that isn't fully regulated.

People can't bitch about lack of freedom of speech on the internet. You can google anything from flowers to snuff films. Children and adults have been harassed, exploited, injured, or died as a direct/indirect result of the internet. Not to mention the myriad of other internet cybercrimes that have been committed. I see some degree of regulation as being inevitable. However, I don't ever see us as becoming a China style internet. We'll just see how it unfolds over the next decade or so. As long as they don't ever talk about taxing the web, then I can deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
Mustangman_2000 is offline  
post #14 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajet69
In this post, you have a decent argument, but.... (note highlighted text)

Do you not think 9/11 was probable cause? And yes, you are correct, we did do just fine at Pear Harbor but this isn't your grandfathers war, and might alone will not win this war.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.


David
9/11 wasn't probable cause to errode the the rights and freedoms of the American people. 9/11 was probable cause for us to go after the Taliban and Al-Qaida.

I understand it's not the same war, but the basic principals are the same. We were attacked, at no fault of everyday citizens, therefore we respond with force on those that caused harm.

The data collection, the transactions collection, the illegal wiretapping, cameras, national ID cards, etc.... all in the name of terror without probable cause, on ordinary citizens. That is a problem, do you ever think you will get those back? There is a reason the DHS was created, and trust me, it's not for your safety.

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases. - Thomas Jefferson

"I predict future happiness for Americans
if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them."
- Thomas Jefferson

Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty. - Benjamin Franklin

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #15 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:10 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
What funny about your statement, it goes against everything in your sig.
Differentiating Freedom and Security isn't that hard... try again.
Denny is offline  
post #16 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:11 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98COBRA#770
Your all sheep.
What about all my sheep?
Denny is offline  
post #17 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:19 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,194
The government can get bent.
David is offline  
post #18 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
Differentiating Freedom and Security isn't that hard... try again.
When security infringes on freedoms, it becomes a problem...figuring that out isn't that hard.

I suggest you examine the history and the principals behind the flag you proudly bare in you sig. Our fathers, your fathers, sons and brothers didn't fight for a nation that destroys our constitutional freedoms and ways of life. They fought to preserve them, and you can not pick and choose which ones you are willing to give-up and which ones you are willing to keep. It's all or nothing, so pick a side.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #19 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:27 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
When security infringes on freedoms, it becomes a problem...figuring that out isn't that hard.

I suggest you examine the history and the principals behind the flag you proudly bare in you sig. Our fathers, your fathers, sons and brothers didn't fight for a nation that destroys our constitutional freedoms and ways of life. They fought to preserve them, and you can not pick and choose which ones you are willing to give-up and which ones you are willing to keep. It's all or nothing, so pick a side.
It doesn't infringe on anything I say or do, so who cares? Really. Does it limit me to what I can say or where I go? Does it make decisions for me? Nope. Where is my FREEDOM restricted?

Can it possibly interrupt sensitive communication about hurting innocent people? Sign me the fuck up!
Denny is offline  
post #20 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:34 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
9/11 wasn't probable cause to errode the the rights and freedoms of the American people. 9/11 was probable cause for us to go after the Taliban and Al-Qaida.

I understand it's not the same war, but the basic principals are the same. We were attacked, at no fault of everyday citizens, therefore we respond with force on those that caused harm.

The data collection, the transactions collection, the illegal wiretapping, cameras, national ID cards, etc.... all in the name of terror without probable cause, on ordinary citizens. That is a problem, do you ever think you will get those back? There is a reason the DHS was created, and trust me, it's not for your safety.<---this statement borders on severe paranoia!

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases. - Thomas Jefferson

"I predict future happiness for Americans
if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them."
- Thomas Jefferson

Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty. - Benjamin Franklin

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

Again, what freedoms have you lost due to the Patriot Act? You still speak, write, walk, talk, do as you will with no one impeding upon your right to do so.

Again, do you not feel "infringed upon" every time you drive down the freeway and Johny Law points his Lazer gun at you, monitoring your speed? Where are your complaints about "rights violations" there?

The government (IRS) already knows everything you spend on, what's in your bank acct., your credit habits etc...

Camera's? Where are your complaints about red light cameras, or retail store cameras? They are there only for your safety, nothing more!

National ID cards? What is a Social Security card, or drivers license? Are those violations of your rights?


David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #21 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:42 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Buncha God-damned, uneducated, ignorant, I deserve anything I ask for, fuckers.












I'm sorry, I didn't mean that.
Denny is offline  
post #22 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
It doesn't infringe on anything I say or do, so who cares? Really. Does it limit me to what I can say or where I go? Does it make decisions for me? Nope. Where is my FREEDOM restricted?

Can it possibly interrupt sensitive communication about hurting innocent people? Sign me the fuck up!
Classic "Not in my back-yard" problem with this country.

If it doesn't affect me, who cares! They can listen to my conversations, they can track my purchases, they can watch me on cameras, but they take my gun then I have a problem.

Here's a prime example of this line of thinking.

We were out on a boat this weekend with a few friends and a couple of people we didn't know. People drinking and having a good time, then once everyone had a few in them, they started talking politics.

So the discussion turned to the patriot act, and illegal wire-tapping, etc.. This drunk red-neck basically gave the same arguement you are siding with here and could only state, "why haven't we been attacked since 9/11?" Over and over again, he stated the government is protecting us, so why do I care.

Well, on the way out to the cove we were anchored at, we get pulled over by the water board for a safety check and questioning. Then when we left we got pulled over again and the boat searched and people were questioned for 10-15 minutes.

He then started bitching about being pulled over twice in the same night and being put thru the ringer by the officers, without reason or cause. Then the others on the boat, basically having the same thought as he did, started bitching about being pulled over 4 times, in one day, on their jet-skis.

I had to laugh.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #23 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:45 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
If it doesn't affect me, who cares! They can listen to my conversations, they can track my purchases, they can watch me on cameras, but they take my gun then I have a problem.
You only listed one violation of my Rights.
Denny is offline  
post #24 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Again, what freedoms have you lost due to the Patriot Act? You still speak, write, walk, talk, do as you will with no one impeding upon your right to do so.
I have lost the same ones everyone else has lost. Has it affected me at this point in my life? No, but I don't want to take the chance that it will.

Quote:
Again, do you not feel "infringed upon" every time you drive down the freeway and Johny Law points his Lazer gun at you, monitoring your speed? Where are your complaints about "rights violations" there?
I have no problems with protecting public safety, the problem I will have is when Johnny Law, after he pulls me over for breaking the law, questions me about personal issues. Then tries to search my car, which has happened with a friend, without warrant.

Quote:
The government (IRS) already knows everything you spend on, what's in your bank acct., your credit habits etc...

Camera's? Where are your complaints about red light cameras, or retail store cameras? They are there only for your safety, nothing more!

National ID cards? What is a Social Security card, or drivers license? Are those violations of your rights?


David
Oh I complain about all those you listed above. If I ever get a ticket from a red light camera, you can bet I will fight it.

The IRS is the biggest infringing department of our government. I believe it should be dissolved.

SS cards, National ID cards, DL license.. I have problems with as well. They are all forms of big-brother in some sort of fashion. Tell me how any one of them benefits you?

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #25 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:00 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter

Well, on the way out to the cove we were anchored at, we get pulled over by the water board for a safety check and questioning. Then when we left we got pulled over again and the boat searched and people were questioned for 10-15 minutes.

He then started bitching about being pulled over twice in the same night and being put thru the ringer by the officers, without reason or cause. Then the others on the boat, basically having the same thought as he did, started bitching about being pulled over 4 times, in one day, on their jet-skis.

I had to laugh.

Seriously man, that was weak! Cop's have probable cause to search (and question) a vehicle full of a bunch of drunk people!? No?

They (cops) are only there to protect the good from the bad! You have too much faith that everyone in society is as good a person (responsible, non-offending) as you are. It isn't that way bro, and some of us don't want to be caught with our pants down - again!


David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #26 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
You only listed one violation of my Rights.
Again..

[Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This includes everything.

Secure in:

Persons
Houses
Papers
Effects

Tell me what is not covered?

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #27 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:02 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
I have lost the same ones everyone else has lost. Has it affected me at this point in my life? No, but I don't want to take the chance that it will.



I have no problems with protecting public safety, the problem I will have is when Johnny Law, after he pulls me over for breaking the law, questions me about personal issues. Then tries to search my car, which has happened with a friend, without warrant.



Oh I complain about all those you listed above. If I ever get a ticket from a red light camera, you can bet I will fight it.

The IRS is the biggest infringing department of our government. I believe it should be dissolved.

SS cards, National ID cards, DL license.. I have problems with as well. They are all forms of big-brother in some sort of fashion. Tell me how any one of them benefits you?
Good God, bro... sounds like you don't want to live in any form of organized society and not be held accountable for anything. Holy shit!
Denny is offline  
post #28 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajet69
Seriously man, that was weak! Cop's have probable cause to search (and question) a vehicle full of a bunch of drunk people!? No?

They (cops) are only there to protect the good from the bad! You have too much faith that everyone in society is as good a person (responsible, non-offending) as you are. It isn't that way bro, and some of us don't want to be caught with our pants down - again!


David
#1 We had not been drinking on the way there.
#2 The driver of the boat had not been drinking, nor was breaking any laws.

Meaning no probable cause.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #29 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:04 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
Again..

[Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This includes everything.

Secure in:

Persons
Houses
Papers
Effects

Tell me what is not covered?
Once you're pulled over for a safety check that EVERYONE was subject to, not just your party's boat, then you're subject to search. You didn't have to go on the water, did you?
Denny is offline  
post #30 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:06 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
#1 We had not been drinking on the way there.
#2 The driver of the boat had not been drinking, nor was breaking any laws.

Meaning no probable cause.
You sound like John Wiley Price.
Denny is offline  
post #31 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
Good God, bro... sounds like you don't want to live in any form of organized society and not be held accountable for anything. Holy shit!
No, I just believe in the founding laws and freedoms upon which this country was built. I don't believe there are any shades of gray when it comes to my freedoms.

Do you think, if the founding fathers believed in shades of gray, regarding our laws and freedoms, we would be the the country we are today?

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #32 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:12 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
I have lost the same ones everyone else has lost.

What are they, these lost rights?


I have no problems with protecting public safety, ....

Do you not see the correlation here?


If I ever get a ticket from a red light camera, you can bet I will fight it.

Good luck with that.

The IRS is the biggest infringing department of our government. I believe it should be dissolved.

Agreed

SS cards, National ID cards, DL license.. I have problems with as well. They are all forms of big-brother in some sort of fashion. Tell me how any one of them benefits you?
SS cards? Proof of tax payer and citizenship. National ID card? Never seen one. DL? Proof of ID and ability to drive a vehicle - safely.

David

Last edited by cobrajet69; 08-07-2008 at 10:23 AM.
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #33 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
Once you're pulled over for a safety check that EVERYONE was subject to, not just your party's boat, then you're subject to search. You didn't have to go on the water, did you?
So do you believe if you drive a car, or walk down the street you are subject to search? You didn't have to drive, did you? Same principal, just one is on water.

DWI checkpoints? How about the crap the Irving TABC pulled awhile back at the bars?

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #34 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:13 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
No, I just believe in the founding laws and freedoms upon which this country was built. I don't believe there are any shades of gray when it comes to my freedoms.

Do you think, if the founding fathers believed in shades of gray, regarding our laws and freedoms, we would be the the country we are today?
The fuck are you talking about?!?! What fucking violation is going on here?!?! Some guy in Virginia will pop on, see you jerking off to www.sluttygrannies.com and move along. He doesn't care about that shit. He's looking for Muhammad telling Ishtar to wear the yellow dirka so they can see each other as they push their detonators at the same time.
Denny is offline  
post #35 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:17 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
So do you believe if you drive a car, or walk down the street you are subject to search? You didn't have to drive, did you? Same principal, just one is on water.

DWI checkpoints? How about the crap the Irving TABC pulled awhile back at the bars?
I believe in the DWI checkpoints, so what? I accept the laws and regulations of the State I was issued my license to drive in. Buddy, you need education on what freedom is.

TABC was out of line and it was corrected.
Denny is offline  
post #36 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrajet69
David
How many times do I have to post the 4th amendment here? Seriously?

You never told me how those cards benefit you?

You'll probably say:

The SS card proves my citizenship, I think birth certificate does that quite well.

The DL allows me to drive, does it?

National ID?

They are all forms of tracking you. Why do you think hospitals ask for your SS#? Why do they need it?

Why does employers ask for it? So they can report to the government how much $ you make.

Why do the banks need it? To pull your credit, to see how much money you have. We functioned perfectly fine for years without credit reporting.

2009 Night train

Last edited by Gripenfelter; 08-07-2008 at 10:39 AM.
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #37 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
The fuck are you talking about?!?! What fucking violation is going on here?!?! Some guy in Virginia will pop on, see you jerking off to www.sluttygrannies.com and move along. He doesn't care about that shit. He's looking for Muhammad telling Ishtar to wear the yellow dirka so they can see each other as they push their detonators at the same time.
So you result to personal insults, because you can't argue the points.

It is black and white, written on paper. 4th amendment, learn it, re-read it, try to understand it. It's not that hard.

2009 Night train

Last edited by Gripenfelter; 08-07-2008 at 10:46 AM.
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #38 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:25 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
How many times do I have to post the 5th amendment here? Seriously?

You never told me how those cards benefit you?

You'll probably say:

The SS card proves my citizenship, I think birth certificate does that quite well.

The DL allows me to drive, does it?

National ID?

They are all forms of tracking you. Why do you think hospitals ask for your SS#? Why do they need it?

Why does employers ask for it? So they can report to the government how much $ you make.

Why do the banks need it? To pull your credit, to see how much money you have. We funtioned perfectly fine for years without credit reporting.
Sounds like you've got too much to hide. Nothing more. Tax laws are set up a certain way, based on your income, right?

You need to have a reporting process as our system is set now. Hospitals need your SS# for identifying you no-paying asses. If you decline, they should be able to decline you for service. Fair?

You don't have to give it to banks, just like they don't have to loan you money.
Denny is offline  
post #39 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:25 AM
Lifer
 
Mustangman_2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: D/FW
Posts: 8,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
#1 We had not been drinking on the way there.
#2 The driver of the boat had not been drinking, nor was breaking any laws.

Meaning no probable cause.
I guess my question is if you were not breaking the law and there was no punishment rendered, then I fail to see the problem?

I have a few good friends that are cops in Denton Co. There are many ways an officer can search your vehicle sans a warrant. Probable cause is at the officer's discretion. I've been pulled over many times in my life and have never had my vehicle searched. There was a reason that the cop searched your vehicle whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

You sound like a closet anarchist to me. You sound uncomfortable with rules and laws in general. I'm sorry, but I don't want to live in a lawless society or without Police. I like living in a somewhat civilized society and low crime neighborhood. I enjoy the piss out of it.

And regarding your comment about fighting a stoplight camera ticket; Good luck with that. I've had a friend be the unfortunate recipient of a red light camera ticket. You get in the mail with a photo of the infraction. There is nothing to arbitrate. It's going to be tough to convince a judge that there was no infraction when he's looking at a picture of you committing an infraction. Be prepared to pay the fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
Mustangman_2000 is offline  
post #40 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:27 AM
Every day is.............
 
cobrajet69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Keller
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
How many times do I have to post the 5th amendment here? Seriously?

You never told me how those cards benefit you?

You'll probably say:

The SS card proves my citizenship, I think birth certificate does that quite well.

The DL allows me to drive, does it?

National ID?

They are all forms of tracking you. Why do you think hospitals ask for your SS#? Why do they need it?

Why does employers ask for it? So they can report to the government how much $ you make.

Why do the banks need it? To pull your credit, to see how much money you have. We funtioned perfectly fine for years without credit reporting.
Citing "5th Amendment" does not make your point. NO WHERE have you shown lost rights or having been infringed upon.

I edited my last response (lost some text), re-read .

David
cobrajet69 is offline  
post #41 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:30 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
So you result to personal insults, because you can't argue the points.

It is black and white, written on paper. 5th amendment, learn it, re-read it, try to understand it. It's not that hard.
No, I'm just boring myself having to explain shit over and over, so I'm trying to entertain myself and give you other prespectives so that you MIGHT get a clue.

Fifth Ammendment? Have YOU read it?!?!
Quote:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
We, as a Nation, take terrorism as a public danger. They WILL NOT prosecute you or investigate anything OTHER than possible terroristic activity.
Denny is offline  
post #42 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
Sounds like you've got too much to hide. Nothing more. Tax laws are set up a certain way, based on your income, right?
Nothing to hide, just none of their business. That is the reason I believe the IRs should be dissolved and we move to a fair tax.

Quote:
You need to have a reporting process as our system is set now. Hospitals need your SS# for identifying you no-paying asses. If you decline, they should be able to decline you for service. Fair?
As long as you have insurance, or the ability to pay, then no more is needed. If you can't pay, the same process occurs...with or without a SS#. They bill you, you don't pay.

Quote:
You don't have to give it to banks, just like they don't have to loan you money.
They functioned quote well before credit reports, it's called proof of income.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #43 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
No, I'm just boring myself having to explain shit over and over, so I'm trying to entertain myself and give you other prespectives so that you MIGHT get a clue.
Then stop, because like you, you're not going to convince me otherwise.



Quote:
Fifth Ammendment? Have YOU read it?!?!

We, as a Nation, take terrorism as a public danger. They WILL NOT prosecute you or investigate anything OTHER than possible terroristic activity.
I meant the 4th amendment, my mistake, I corrected the previous posts.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #44 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:55 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
Then stop, because like you, you're not going to convince me otherwise.





I meant the 4th amendment, my mistake, I corrected the previous posts.
The 4th Ammendment
Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
We're talking random wire taps for reasonable purposes. Like I stated before, you're not going to be investigated or brought up on any other charges under the Patriot Act, other than terrorism.

USA PATRIOT Act: Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism
Denny is offline  
post #45 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
The 4th Ammendment


We're talking random wire taps for reasonable purposes. Like I stated before, you're not going to be investigated or brought up on any other charges under the Patriot Act, other than terrorism.

USA PATRIOT Act: Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism
Ok, then why, in the last FISA Revision, did they have to provide the Telecom industry immunity?

Why then have the lastest investigations and witness pointed to unfettered wiretapping and collection of everyday e-mails and phone conversations?

Maybe because they broke the law.

2009 Night train
Gripenfelter is offline  
post #46 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 11:02 AM
Packin' up...
 
Skidmark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 18,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
How many times do I have to post the 4th amendment here? Seriously?

You never told me how those cards benefit you?

You'll probably say:

The SS card proves my citizenship, I think birth certificate does that quite well.

The DL allows me to drive, does it?

National ID?

They are all forms of tracking you. Why do you think hospitals ask for your SS#? Why do they need it?

Why does employers ask for it? So they can report to the government how much $ you make.

Why do the banks need it? To pull your credit, to see how much money you have. We functioned perfectly fine for years without credit reporting.
Hospitals - if you do not pay your bill it goes on your credit. They wouldn't be able to put it on your credit without your SS.
Skidmark is offline  
post #47 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 12:26 PM
not exclude
 
exlude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,838
Well paint me conservative on this one, but I'd rather not let the government have that kind of power.
exlude is offline  
post #48 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 03:53 PM
PAN
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under a rock
Posts: 20,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude
Well paint me conservative on this one, but I'd rather not let the government have that kind of power.

One step at a time...
Fox466 is offline  
post #49 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 05:28 PM
Bullet Sponge
 
forever_frost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cooper, Tx
Posts: 3,142
The Patriot Act was extremely far reaching. Too much so. Certain parts of it has been found unconstitutional and provisions have been made to protect agencies who agree to help the government do unlawful wiretaps and the like. The reason? They were unlawful. The communication business would be more likely to ask for warrants if they were not protected. This way, they are more likely to go with the flow.

I'm all for legislation and police. I've never had an issue with an officer. However, the public needs protection as well. Policing the internet is impossible. I've sat in on several terrorism classes and learned some of the ways they pass information. Genius. Reading mail and watching websites of people without needing a throatful of mucus to pronounce their names is pointless oversight.
forever_frost is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome