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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 05:26 AM Thread Starter
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Nationalizing Refineries

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Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY), member of the House Appropriations Committee and one of the most-ardent opponents of off-shore drilling
1115
We (the government) should own the refineries. Then we can control how much gets out into the market.
And the first thing they should do is cut the refinery worker's pay. They have to living off the rest of us for too long.
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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
And the first thing they should do is cut the refinery worker's pay. They have to living off the rest of us for too long.
Then they can run them like they do the VA Hospital, public education, Social Security, and welfare.

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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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Then they can run them like they do the VA Hospital, public education, Social Security, and welfare.
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post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 06:24 AM
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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 06:34 AM Thread Starter
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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
I think we should let them. That will show everyone how great nationalized health care will be.

The people haven't figured that out with VA Hospital, public education, Social Security, welfare, etc, etc,..

What makes you think they would learn now?

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post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 07:15 AM
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The people haven't figured that out with VA Hospital, public education, Social Security, welfare, etc, etc,..

What makes you think they would learn now?
If this country won't take care of our Vet's, what makes them think they'll take care of anyone?

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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 07:40 AM
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If this country won't take care of our Vet's, what makes them think they'll take care of anyone?
The critical word in that sentence is "THINK"

Not a lot of that going on these days....

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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 10:26 AM
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I wonder what exactly they would do differently? Bypass environmental, safety and NIMBY lawsuits? If they can do it by nationalizing the industry they can do it without nationalizing the industry.
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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Casper
I wonder what exactly they would do differently? Bypass environmental, safety and NIMBY lawsuits? If they can do it by nationalizing the industry they can do it without nationalizing the industry.
They would take the "profitability" out of it.

Look at the "privately held" prisons. They are so much more efficient than the state-run facilities. I can't imagine the bureaucracy and pork that would occur with a government-run refinery...

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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 10:39 AM
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This is a good idea. The Democratic senator from New York obviously knows a lot about refining crude oil. We should let that ignorant fuck do brain surgery too while we are at it. Why not?

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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 10:39 AM
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I don't think you'll find a oil company that wouldn't sell their US refineries to the government.

It's a low margin business that is now squeezed between weakening demand and increasing raw material costs. Refiners are already scrapping plans to expand refinery capacity because it doesn't make sense.

Like every other American industry, American companies are looking for opportunities outside our borders while those outside our borders are buying up assets in the states.

One example being Petroplus teaming up with private equity firms to buy US refineries while Valero is looking to expand refining capabilities in the ME and Asia.

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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 10:46 AM
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This is a good idea. The Democratic senator from New York obviously knows a lot about refining crude oil. We should let that ignorant fuck do brain surgery too while we are at it. Why not?
We need him to design the new space shuttle over the weekend as well.
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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 10:48 AM
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I think the government should nationalize drug manufacturers, too. They make too much money, and Diane Feinstein and Maxine Waters are smart enough to run them.

Let's go ahead and nationalize dairies while we're at it. Milk is too high, due to the "corn-for-fuel" thing, so let Ted Kennedy run the dairies...

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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:01 AM
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The government should just control how much the refineries put out, not everything. Wouldn't letting them expand help with the problem?

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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:01 AM
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Right after we nationalize the internet and tax the air everyone exhales.
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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:08 AM
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Right after we nationalize the internet and tax the air everyone exhales.
Damn...that's right up Al Gore's alley...

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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:13 AM
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I don't know what the fuck the answer is, but something has got to change.
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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:14 AM
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I don't know what the fuck the answer is, but something has got to change.
Nothing will make this change.
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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bcoop
I don't know what the fuck the answer is, but something has got to change.
Flood the market with oil, or at least ACT like you will. Just saying we will drill in new area's is enough for OPEC to fear losing our business. Oil would have dropped yesterday if Congress had approved the Bush proposal to lift the ban on off-shore drilling. It's all a game, whether it's the speculators or the middle east. Perception is reality. If we act like we will drill anywhere to find our own oil, especially knowing it's there, OPEC and others will do what's necessary to keep our business.

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post #21 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:21 AM
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Flood the market with oil, or at least ACT like you will. Just saying we will drill in new area's is enough for OPEC to fear losing our business. Oil would have dropped yesterday if Congress had approved the Bush proposal to lift the ban on off-shore drilling. It's all a game, whether it's the speculators or the middle east. Perception is reality. If we act like we will drill anywhere to find our own oil, especially knowing it's there, OPEC and others will do what's necessary to keep our business.


I wish the people voting for the Dems would realize they are part of the problem, by not being part of the solution. Too much to ask, I know.
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post #22 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:29 AM
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I wish the people voting for the Dems would realize they are part of the problem, by not being part of the solution. Too much to ask, I know.
Coop, as a rule, the typical American is so uninformed about this, it's pathetic. Especially considering the internet, and all it has to offer with a simple "google". They read the paper, and believe all the "talking heads", because they're too lazy to get educated.

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post #23 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:31 AM
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And the first thing they should do is cut the refinery worker's pay. They have to living off the rest of us for too long.

Even better lets outsource all the refinery's so we can lose even more American jobs. The refinery workers are at the bottom of the barrel as far as pay goes. Why would you want to punish them for trying to make a living.

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post #24 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:34 AM
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Coop, as a rule, the typical American is so uninformed about this, it's pathetic. Especially considering the internet, and all it has to offer with a simple "google". They read the paper, and believe all the "talking heads", because they're too lazy to get educated.


I know.


Man, the older I get, the more interested in politics I become. The more interested I get, the more it pisses me off. I'd love nothing more than to jump in somewhere, and try to make a difference.


If only I hadn't made so many mistakes as a young adult.
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post #25 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:40 AM
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where is all the Obama people here defending this ???????


this is exactly where Obama wants to take us, with his presidency and the socialist… I mean democratic controlled congress we just might see it…
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post #26 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:51 AM
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Even better lets outsource all the refinery's so we can lose even more American jobs. The refinery workers are at the bottom of the barrel as far as pay goes. Why would you want to punish them for trying to make a living.
Sarcasm > FreightTrain

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post #27 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 11:55 AM
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Sarcasm > FreightTrain
LOL at least I have hair. Don't you have some marathon you should be training for old man.

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post #28 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:08 PM
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LOL at least I have hair. Don't you have some marathon you should be training for old man.
Oooohhh another old man jab. I see how TDD's sarcasm was too much for your sense of humor.

I have hair. I just typically shave it off for the summer (although this year I'm at a 1/2 guard.)

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post #29 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:13 PM
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Oooohhh another old man jab. I see how TDD's sarcasm was too much for your sense of humor.

I have hair. I just typically shave it off for the summer (although this year I'm at a 1/2 guard.)

Next marathon is November 16 in San Antonio. Wanna come run with me?

Sorry I'll have to pass since that is right in the middle of hunting season, but your always more than welcome to stop off and buy me a beer.

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post #30 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:28 PM
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According to this piece, the government is already causing a hyper-inflated oil price:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...%7D&siteid=rss

Quote:
One adviser who has focused on these issues is John Dessauer, editor of the Investors World newsletter. In a recent communication to subscribers, he discussed the impact on the price of oil of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which Congress passed in December 2000. One consequence of that legislation, according to Dessauer, is that "the oil market has been grossly distorted."
By how much?
Dessauer estimates that if the government rolled back the regulatory changes made in that legislation, oil's price could fall back all the way to $80 per barrel. That would represent a 40% drop from where crude closed on Tuesday.
Lets just go back and look at who the clueless politicians were who passed this legislation and then have them defend it. That would be far more interesting than the current crop of worn-tire issues that don't have a thing to do with real issues.
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post #31 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:31 PM
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Lets just go back and look at who the clueless politicians were who passed this legislation and then have them defend it. That would be far more interesting than the current crop of worn-tire issues that don't have a thing to do with real issues.
yes yes yes... lets do more of this... hold their feet to the fire
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post #32 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:40 PM
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According to this piece, the government is already causing a hyper-inflated oil price:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...%7D&siteid=rss



Lets just go back and look at who the clueless politicians were who passed this legislation and then have them defend it. That would be far more interesting than the current crop of worn-tire issues that don't have a thing to do with real issues.
I doubt the loophole that was codified in the CFMA is responsible for $50+ a bbl.

Basically the loophole allows oil future contracts to be traded electronically in unregulated markets. The Farm Bill took care of some of the loophole but instead of allowing the buyer to prove why their trade doesn't need regulation it puts the onus on the regulators to prove why it needs regulation.

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post #33 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:49 PM
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I don't know what the fuck the answer is, but something has got to change.
I got an answer change the way you live, consume less, the more gas saved the less sold, the less sold the higher the supply, supply and demand rule=higher supply-lower cost. I realize that this would take time as the energy market is artificially inflated as of now.

I am making changes, i.e. in the past two weeks I have only purchased 10 gallons of gas and 2 of that was for my lawn. The best way for people to make a genuine impact on the energy issue is make personal changes. I love all this fucking whining about restricting gas prices, stop oil prospecting, nationalize the refineries, LOL. How about stop driving a 1 ton fucking desiel as a daily driver or running 80 mph versus a much less fuel consuming 55-60 mph. Oh yeah as a society, stop using credit cards as a way living beyond ones means, determining wants from needs.

I have a great idea, reduce the amount of energy consumed, over the long term. I know this is a McDonalds, instant gratification style society but dam look at how we live. Try riding a bike to the store, I went to the parts store on my mountain bike last week, 3 miles one way. My truck had gas, I have money but I still pedaled my ass up the road and it felt good to know I was not consuming shit except my own time and body fat.

If Americans weren't cry babies and modified their lifestyles we wouldn' need the Government to intervene, if you ask the Government to get involved then don't bitch when you lose your rights or get ordered to use a certain style light bulb, you essentially gave them away, your rights that is.
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post #34 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 12:54 PM
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I got an answer change the way you live, consume less, the more gas saved the less sold, the less sold the higher the supply, supply and demand rule=higher supply-lower cost. I realize that this would take time as the energy market is artificially inflated as of now.

I am making changes, i.e. in the past two weeks I have only purchased 10 gallons of gas and 2 of that was for my lawn. The best way for people to make a genuine impact on the energy issue is make personal changes. I love all this fucking whining about restricting gas prices, stop oil prospecting, nationalize the refineries, LOL. How about stop driving a 1 ton fucking desiel as a daily driver or running 80 mph versus a much less fuel consuming 55-60 mph. Oh yeah as a society, stop using credit cards as a way living beyond ones means, determining wants from needs.

I have a great idea, reduce the amount of energy consumed, over the long term. I know this is a McDonalds, instant gratification style society but dam look at how we live. Try riding a bike to the store, I went to the parts store on my mountain bike last week, 3 miles one way. My truck had gas, I have money but I still pedaled my ass up the road and it felt good to know I was not consuming shit except my own time and body fat.

If Americans weren't cry babies and modified their lifestyles we wouldn' need the Government to intervene, if you ask the Government to get involved then don't bitch when you lose your rights or get ordered to use a certain style light bulb, you essentially gave them away, your rights that is.
...you also took a job a couple miles from where you live, right? Huge.

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post #35 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 01:01 PM
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I got an answer change the way you live, consume less, the more gas saved the less sold, the less sold the higher the supply, supply and demand rule=higher supply-lower cost.
Not everyone can make that change. I can't, for instance.


We live about 3 minutes from where my wife works. I'm about 7 minutes away, due to lights. It's only about 5 miles for me. I do have the option/luxury to work from my house when possible.

However, I'm in outside sales. My territory is East Texas. If I'm not in front of my customers, I'm not doing my job. I don't pay for my gas, either. So it's not screwing me as much as it is others. It's killing the company I work for though. We cover all of TX and Oklahoma. You can't do that, without burning gas. Burning up profit left and right. I do all I can (I've slowed down, and try to burn as little as possible), but I can't make the drastic change you did. Props to you, for being in a position to do so though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
Oh yeah as a society, stop using credit cards as a way living beyond ones means, determining wants from needs.

I agree, but that is NEVER going to happen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
If Americans weren't cry babies and modified their lifestyles we wouldn' need the Government to intervene, if you ask the Government to get involved then don't bitch when you lose your rights or get ordered to use a certain style light bulb, you essentially gave them away, your rights that is.

You don't know me very well. I loathe big govt. I'm also a rebel, and giving up rights disgusts and infuriates me.
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post #36 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 01:03 PM
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...you also took a job a couple miles from where you live, right? Huge.
Yes 2.8 miles and $4500 dollar before tax pay cut; however, the math played out in my favor. I am going to save $3900 per year in gas, $410 a year in toll fees, and I am no longer in the teachers Union (in Dallas ISd it is a must) that saves me $550 a year all that after taxes so if you add it up not to mention oil changes, vehicle wear and tear, etc, I sabe $4860 plus a year post tax so it is a small pay raise.

Also one more benefit, the High School starts at 9:15 am where as I used to start Jr. High classes in Dallas ISD at 8:15 am, I had to leave by 7 am to be on time. I can now sleep until 8am take 30 minutes to get ready and still be at work 35 to 40 minutes early.
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post #37 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 01:27 PM
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I doubt the loophole that was codified in the CFMA is responsible for $50+ a bbl.

Basically the loophole allows oil future contracts to be traded electronically in unregulated markets. The Farm Bill took care of some of the loophole but instead of allowing the buyer to prove why their trade doesn't need regulation it puts the onus on the regulators to prove why it needs regulation.
You can school me on this, but going only what i know about Enron, I think the general idea is that oil is being "traded and stored" offshore in the same way that energy was being "traded and stored" outside of California. In other words, where Enron was taking advantage of the new regulations in California and how they were different than the rest of the country, the same sort of artificial market is being taken advantage of in oil today.

I really enjoy the enron stuff, those guys were slick.

To try and make the analogy by example, I'll propose the following, feel free to pick it apart constructively:

I buy oil at the wellhead in West Texas on a future delivery. I then buy the oil from myself electronically as a future commodity contract offshore, say in London. I then sell that contract back to myself in the US. The oil has never really moved anywhere, just the trade. But I am circumventing the storage and transport mechanisms with an artificial one, and adding that artificial cost back into the trade. I have an incentive for escalating the price and no physical drawback for spoilage.

Maybe that is my misreading of it. But I have to ask, if agricultural and base metal products are priced primarily by market forces under this system, why should energy have a different ballpark to play in? It isn't a difference in export vs import, because we import plenty of base commodities, like platinum and palladium, even nickel. In fact we import steel when there is raw product here, to the point where some scrap trade is fetching more for the commodity by weight than the original imported product did.

You, sir, have the floor. I'm honestly listening.
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post #38 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 01:38 PM
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You have the basic idea right. I just doubt we're talking $50+ a barrel or 40% of the price.

Oil is the one on the most liquid instruments to trade. You would have to have seriously major collusion in order to drive $50 into the price.

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post #39 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
You have the basic idea right. I just doubt we're talking $50+ a barrel or 40% of the price.

Oil is the one on the most liquid instruments to trade. You would have to have seriously major collusion in order to drive $50 into the price.

Cool, so at least I understand his argument.

Could it be that instead of leaps and bounds it has been gradually inflated, and it would drop gradually by $50?

It seems like all this started after Katrina and releasing of the SPR. Like that was all it took to get the snowball rolling. Then again maybe not.
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post #40 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
I doubt the loophole that was codified in the CFMA is responsible for $50+ a bbl.

Basically the loophole allows oil future contracts to be traded electronically in unregulated markets. The Farm Bill took care of some of the loophole but instead of allowing the buyer to prove why their trade doesn't need regulation it puts the onus on the regulators to prove why it needs regulation.
Don't forget it oil was just trade amongst energy companies, but since the 2000-2001 bill that helped create ICE, oil is now traded by everybody.

I'm willing to bet the subprime mortgage crisis helped fuel the oil price inflation with banks/investors trying to recoup their lost money from the sub-prime by going into the oil market.

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post #41 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 03:37 PM
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See all this bitching about gas prices on DFWStangs, works.

Nymex RBOB Gasoline Futur 334.00 -12.67 -3.65 15:53

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post #42 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 04:42 PM
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People are starting to change slowly but surely. I saw FIVE Toyota Prius cars on the road yesterday on the way to work. It was rare to even see one until recently.

Casper you pretty much have the process down in regard to speculation just remember that when it comes time to sell the contracts there are a lot of willing buyers who think the price is headed to $200 a barrel because of the media nonsense.
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post #43 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P
People are starting to change slowly but surely. I saw FIVE Toyota Prius cars on the road yesterday on the way to work. It was rare to even see one until recently.

Casper you pretty much have the process down in regard to speculation just remember that when it comes time to sell the contracts there are a lot of willing buyers who think the price is headed to $200 a barrel because of the media nonsense.
Yeah, hence the (seemingly) never ending spiral. The profits are funneled back into keeping the price up there.

Now that money literally does grow on trees it seems to have no counterbalance short of catastrophe.
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post #44 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-19-2008, 08:41 PM
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Fuel would go to $20 gal. But they would be there to cap the price and more idiots would vote for them for 'helping us' out.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

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post #45 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
You can school me on this, but going only what i know about Enron,
What does Enron have to do with this? Enron? …. Enron…
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post #46 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_aoc
What does Enron have to do with this? Enron? …. Enron…
Enron actually has alot to do with the situation he is talking about.

The "Death Star" and "Load Shift" trade strategies were absolute genius.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
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post #47 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Enron actually has alot to do with the situation he is talking about.

The "Death Star" and "Load Shift" trade strategies were absolute genius.
Enron basically gave us the diving board to start jumping off of...

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post #48 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 03:43 PM
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Enron was a great example of how capitalism works better than government…

I don’t see how it ties to nationalizing oil companies or refineries other than that?
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post #49 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_aoc
Enron was a great example of how capitalism works better than government…

I don’t see how it ties to nationalizing oil companies or refineries other than that?
Thread detour... we were talking about the CFMA.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
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post #50 of 52 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Thread detour... we were talking about the CFMA.
oh... ok... i guess if i would read all the way through that would help...
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