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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
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VA testing drugs on war veterans

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-war-veterans/

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The government is testing drugs with severe side effects like psychosis and suicidal behavior on hundreds of military veterans, using small cash payments to attract patients into medical experiments that often target distressed soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, a Washington Times/ABC News investigation has found.

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:22 AM
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Fucking Liberal media...


The FDA findings were released AFTER the VA was already administering the drug (which was also approved by the FDA PRIOR to prescribing it).

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Just two weeks after Mr. Elliott began taking Chantix in November, the VA learned from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) that the drug was linked to a large number of hallucinations, suicide attempts and psychotic behavior. But the VA did not alert Mr. Elliott before his own episode in February.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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Currently, the VA and other federal agencies are conducting nearly 300 clinical studies involving veterans with PTSD. Most studies are behavioral, including one that tests the effects of yoga on PTSD sufferers.

Twenty-five, however, are testing drugs on 4,796 veterans, more than half (2,488) of whom are just returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to clinical trials filed with the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and reviewed by The Times.

One study conducted by the National Institute of Mental Health is using virtual-reality exposure - sights, sounds and smells from the Iraq battlefield, along with a drug called D-Cycloserine that reduces fear. Other studies are testing drugs on veterans with PTSD, including the antidepressants paroxetine, mirtazapine and citalopram - all carry warnings of suicidal side effects.

"Over 150,000 soldiers are currently deployed in Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) and 12 percent of returning OIF veterans have PTSD," said one study that is using the drug paroxetine on 160 veterans "who have returned from the Iraq theater within the past six months."

Warnings about taking paroxetine include "suicidal thinking about harming or killing oneself or planning to trying to do so" among young adults up to 24 years of age, according to NIH.

Another study on the use of mirtazapine for veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan is testing the efficacy and tolerability of the drug on 100 veterans. Citalopram is being tested on 300 veterans "exposed to high levels of combat stress."

The NIH warning for paroxetine also applies to mirtazapine and citalopram.
What does liberal have to do with testing drugs on veterans?

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:40 AM
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How else are they going to get results? Take a monkey to Iraq for a year, have him run the gunner post on a convoy or kicking in doors of probable insurgents' homes, then test them?

PTSD has always been around. It's something that we've got to figure out and control.
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:41 AM Thread Starter
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Dark history of medical tests

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The government has a controversial history of using military personnel as human research subjects.

Mustard gas was tested on the military during World War II, radiation during the early Cold War period, LSD in the 1960s, herbicide in Vietnam and Panama, and chemical and biological warfare drugs during the Gulf War, according to Senate testimony given by the Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) on July 10, 2002.

In most of those cases, few if any military test subjects were informed of the potential health consequences of the exposure.

"We have a phrase to describe this phenomenon - the disposable soldier syndrome," said Richard Weidman, former VVA director of government relations.

The most infamous government experiment is the Tuskegee Syphilis Study conducted by the U.S. Public Health Service from 1932 through 1972, which used 400 poor and uneducated black male sharecroppers who carried the sexually transmitted disease.

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
What does liberal have to do with testing drugs on veterans?
It's worded to make the "Big Bad VA" out to be picking on the poor, war-torn vet. They're getting help. If you come up with a better way, please, by all means, share it with us. We're all ears!
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
Dark history of medical tests
There's a difference between "the dark days" and today. It's called consentual testing.
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Denny
How else are they going to get results? Take a monkey to Iraq for a year, have him run the gunner post on a convoy or kicking in doors of probable insurgents' homes, then test them?

PTSD has always been around. It's something that we've got to figure out and control.
I agree, but its how you go about it. Should we be using experimental drugs to do this? Our soliders are already experiencing stuff that most people couldn't even dream of. I don't think its right to give an already fragile individual drugs that we haven't study the long term effects on.

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Gripenfelter
I agree, but its how you go about it. Should we be using experimental drugs to do this? Our soliders are already experiencing stuff that most people couldn't even dream of. I don't think its right to give an already fragile individual drugs that we haven't study the long term effects on.
ANY drug used for the first time will be experimental, no matter who approves it.
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:55 AM
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thats right... why post a thread about something you know nothing about... you just assume that the VA is so terrible...
what a jerk
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Adam_aoc
thats right... why post a thread about something you know nothing about... you just assume that the VA is so terrible...
what a jerk
I really don't blame the poster in most cases. Like I said earlier, the media is really selective on the information they release.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:05 AM
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I blame the poster! When you read an article put out by the AP or "most" media outlets, you have to read them with a cretin amount of criticism. That’s a given… It doesn’t take a political scholar to figure out that the VA wouldn’t do something like this in an unfavorable manner towards US troops. And we all live in Texas, correct? You should have more respect for the military than the media.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:10 AM
 
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Wow. So... if it's something bad, that hurts conservatives, even if it's true... it's the Liberal media's fault?

I could swim in the bias. Maybe. It might be too thick.

Do you really think saying "yeah, I agree, we shouldn't be testing suicidal drugs on war vets." makes you a liberal? Don't be so thick-headed.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:12 AM
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that's all just a bunch of liberal media crap...if you want real news, you have to watch/listen to unbiased media like fox.
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_aoc
I blame the poster! When you read an article put out by the AP or "most" media outlets, you have to read them with a cretin amount of criticism. That’s a given… It doesn’t take a political scholar to figure out that the VA wouldn’t do something like this in an unfavorable manner towards US troops. And we all live in Texas, correct? You should have more respect for the military than the media.
I truely believe a lot support the military, but are just easily swayed by the ever-present TV. It's an American thing.
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gpamp
Wow. So... if it's something bad, that hurts conservatives, even if it's true... it's the Liberal media's fault?

I could swim in the bias. Maybe. It might be too thick.

Do you really think saying "yeah, I agree, we shouldn't be testing suicidal drugs on war vets." makes you a liberal? Don't be so thick-headed.
I didn't blame the Liberal Media for what is happening. I blame them for their pathetic excuse of a biased delivery. Don't try to make my posts something they're not, troll.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
Wow. So... if it's something bad, that hurts conservatives, even if it's true... it's the Liberal media's fault?

I could swim in the bias. Maybe. It might be too thick.

Do you really think saying "yeah, I agree, we shouldn't be testing suicidal drugs on war vets." makes you a liberal? Don't be so thick-headed.
Coming from an Obama supporter! Let’s talk about bias …

The media “liberal” is at fault for only showing one side, and presenting it in a way that is negative toward the military. Common practice for the media…
How about all the great things that the VA does? How about the men and women this might help? Have you ever been to a VA hospital?
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Adam_aoc
Coming from an Obama supporter! Let’s talk about bias …

The media “liberal” is at fault for only showing one side, and presenting it in a way that is negative toward the military. Common practice for the media…
How about all the great things that the VA does? How about the men and women this might help? Have you ever been to a VA hospital?
I have!

And I also remember reading about the severe conditions out at Walter Reed. I guess that could've been the "liberal" media, but even Bush had to admit the poor conditions of that place.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:25 AM
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Yeah, the VA is the first group to test experimental drugs on consenting parties and had a few bad side effects. That has never happened before

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by gpamp
I have!

And I also remember reading about the severe conditions out at Walter Reed. I guess that could've been the "liberal" media, but even Bush had to admit the poor conditions of that place.
Walter Reed was a fucked situation. Anyone that denies that is just plain ignorant to the story. That was an isolated management issue, not the VA as a whole.
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by gpamp
I have!

And I also remember reading about the severe conditions out at Walter Reed. I guess that could've been the "liberal" media, but even Bush had to admit the poor conditions of that place.
Walter Reed... Yes
They had a disaster there...
Unfortunately it had been going on for a while too… that is really a separate managerial issue, and even at that its one out of how many?
I have been to the Dallas VA with a friend, these people are great! I hear about the great things that they do in Houston Texas from friends as well…
What the media did wrong with the Walter Reed story was portray it as all VA’s and not show it as an isolated situation.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:39 AM
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I've known a couple of people who were tested on.

1. There were given the option of traditional treatment or this one.
2. All known side effects were explained
3. No promises were made (although, by default some hope was given)

Now, if you're tested on without notification that's a different story and from what I read that was not the case. Well, it was not said either way but based off the spirit of the story I'm sure they would've typed it up in bold letters.

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ceyko
I've known a couple of people who were tested on.

1. There were given the option of traditional treatment or this one.
2. All known side effects were explained
3. No promises were made (although, by default some hope was given)

Now, if you're tested on without notification that's a different story and from what I read that was not the case. Well, it was not said either way but based off the spirit of the story I'm sure they would've typed it up in bold letters.
thank you!
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_aoc
thats right... why post a thread about something you know nothing about... you just assume that the VA is so terrible...
what a jerk
Look douchebag....It's a news article that I posted. You post an article like this to discuss it. I didn't write the fucking article, so you assume because I posted the article and had some concerns, I'm bashing the VA.

I posted this because I believe there is a better way to help our soldiers than testing experimental drugs on them, and for people to discuss this issue. That's what this forum is for.

I suggest you take some of your built-up anger, and bash your head against a brick wall a couple of hundred times. Maybe then you will have half a brain to continue this discussion in an intelligent manner.

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:50 AM
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cool !!
sounds good to me...
guess i'm just an ASSumer
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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As for the VA, they have taken very good care of both of my grandfathers and my dad. I do think however the government has dropped the ball in the past, and currently, on taking care of our veterans.

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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 08:55 AM
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They have dropped the ball. Mostly because the government runs them, and they keep cutting the military budget… we should be pumping more money into these programs instead of some other things that we fund…
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 09:34 AM
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They're using testing Yoga on poor unsuspecting combat vets? My God, will it ever stop? Read the news with a critical eye regardless of the source.

That said, the VA has a piss-poor record and I think their level of service is a slap in the face to our veterans.

My Korean conflict veteran uncle in Okla. has a staph infection in his leg. VA said they needed to amputate "immediately" to save his life after ignoring the problem for weeks while he was in their care. Private doc "saved" the leg with some antibiotics and effort.

Two personal friends have been pretty much ruined by Agent Orange exposure in VN. One has a severely retarded child and major health issues himself; the other has had every medical problem you could ever imagine and it costs 3-4 thousand bucks per month on meds. The VA finally told him he cost too much and they were dropping him. Without the meds he will die. VA essentially says 'yeah, that's a shame, huh?' and sends him out the door.

I'm aware of a fellow board member with serious PTSD from Iraq service. The VA can't seem to get their heads out of their asses long enough to treat him. He finally got so frustrated, he stopped going for treatment.

The VA spends more time denying/deflecting than they ever have trying to treat. For thirty years people in my generation fought to have Dioxin (AKA Agent Orange) studied and acknowledged by the VA. Finally the VA admitted it was a real issue. How many thousands of servicemen died in that 30 years?

If the VA is the best this country has to offer the men and women who keep us free, we should be ashamed. And don't start calling me a lib; I have a pretty well established track record here. But right is right, regardless of politics.

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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Denny
Walter Reed was a fucked situation. Anyone that denies that is just plain ignorant to the story. That was an isolated management issue, not the VA as a whole.
I don't know about it being isolated, and I have my doubts. What I don't have my doubts about is that Walter Reed is a poster child for the pitfalls of nationalized health care.

So if anyone wants to stand aghast at this situation, they might want to consider the context.

I could imagine a HUGE pharma subsidy in the form of government mandated guinea pigs in government mandated hospitals with no choice, no cash incentive and no recourse when it fucks up than to go right back to the people who did it to you in the first place.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 10:58 AM
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I don't know about it being isolated, and I have my doubts. What I don't have my doubts about is that Walter Reed is a poster child for the pitfalls of nationalized health care.

So if anyone wants to stand aghast at this situation, they might want to consider the context.

I could imagine a HUGE pharma subsidy in the form of government mandated guinea pigs in government mandated hospitals with no choice, no cash incentive and no recourse when it fucks up than to go right back to the people who did it to you in the first place.
The association between that and what could be of a national health care system is a safe assumption. As for the isolated comment, I'm sure it really isn't, but I was just basing the statement on factual material.
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 11:04 AM
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Could be like some other vets I know and believe this will hopefully allow the govt to weed out the PTSD scam ran by veterans.
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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by David
Could be like some other vets I know and believe this will hopefully allow the govt to weed out the PTSD scam ran by veterans.
I've heard lots of stories, going back to the 80s. Supposedly there were actual underground classes you could take to get some coaching on drawing benefits.

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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 11:58 AM
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[QUOTE=JP135]They're using testing Yoga on poor unsuspecting combat vets? My God, will it ever stop? Read the news with a critical eye regardless of the source.

That said, the VA has a piss-poor record and I think their level of service is a slap in the face to our veterans.

My Korean conflict veteran uncle in Okla. has a staph infection in his leg. VA said they needed to amputate "immediately" to save his life after ignoring the problem for weeks while he was in their care. Private doc "saved" the leg with some antibiotics and effort.

Two personal friends have been pretty much ruined by Agent Orange exposure in VN. One has a severely retarded child and major health issues himself; the other has had every medical problem you could ever imagine and it costs 3-4 thousand bucks per month on meds. The VA finally told him he cost too much and they were dropping him. Without the meds he will die. VA essentially says 'yeah, that's a shame, huh?' and sends him out the door.

I'm aware of a fellow board member with serious PTSD from Iraq service. The VA can't seem to get their heads out of their asses long enough to treat him. He finally got so frustrated, he stopped going for treatment.


Talking about me? They have given me medication that conflict with one another, medications that make me mean, medications that sedate me, some that can cause suicidal thoughts, some that can cause paranoia... The sheets they give you with your medication never is complete. I have to go online to see what my meds truely do and you know what? I usually dont' take them as I really don't want fucked up more than I already am.

The VA doesn't treat, it just tries to get you to shut up. There are great people at the VA but their hands are pretty much tied.
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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Could be like some other vets I know and believe this will hopefully allow the govt to weed out the PTSD scam ran by veterans.
Scam? PTSD is very real and terrible. Seeing an amputee shows that they are damaged goods, but those of us with PTSD have all those injuries on the inside. Trust me, I wish it was a scam
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by forever_frost
Scam? PTSD is very real and terrible. Seeing an amputee shows that they are damaged goods, but those of us with PTSD have all those injuries on the inside. Trust me, I wish it was a scam
Im sure it effects everyone differently, just points of view from others.
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2008, 02:22 PM
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Here is the explanation as to why there was a delay in notifying the patients participating in the trial. Is it truthful, most likely. Is it right, hell no.

VA officials defend their use of veterans in medical studies, saying that helping PTSD sufferers to stop smoking would prolong their lives. As for the three-month delay in notifying its patients about the Chantix problems, the VA said bureaucracy slowed down their warning because the alert letters had to be issued through an Institutional Review Board (IRB) that oversees the experiment at each VA location.

The "bureaucracy" aspect needs to be refined and expedited when dealing the drugs that have been clinically proven to cause such extreme side effects. That excuse doesn't mean anything to those who have had a bad experience.

However, I bet you will find a lot of patients that benefited from the drug. Prozac has been blamed for many cases of suicide and erratic behavior, but there is a large percentage of people that positively benefit from the drug and others like it.

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it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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