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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-10-2008, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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Why be bullies of the world!?

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Measures the European Union is considering against Iran include a freeze of bank assets, European External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said on Tuesday.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200806...s-43a8d4f.html

Why wont the EU listen to Obama that says Iran is not a serious threat?
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-10-2008, 09:20 PM
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If they do that gas prices are going to climb even higher.

If we'd just pull our presence out of Iraq there would be no hostility but that's a lot easier said than done.

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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-10-2008, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
If they do that gas prices are going to climb even higher.

If we'd just pull our presence out of Iraq there would be no hostility but that's a lot easier said than done.
Someone has forgotten about an attack on sovereign US soil. You really think that if the US just pulls out, that middle east hostility will just "go away"


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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:02 AM
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Congrats to the EU for proposing a common sense measure and seeing Iran for the threat they really are.

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Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor

If we'd just pull our presence out of Iraq there would be no hostility but that's a lot easier said than done.
Funny thing about [religious] radicalism, it's a dogma that's the diametric opposite of common sense or sanity for that matter. Withdrawing U.S. personnel and interest from that region will not end hostility in the middle east.

I would like to see a cessation of hostilities and no more U.S. casualties, but unfortunately we are ostensibly the world police.

Must be something in the water, but people in that region of earth when left to their own devices resort to despotism, terrorism, and human rights atrocities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EDD View Post
it was not a problem to bring money to his house at 10pm.so why is it a problem to call and bitch.it wasnt a problem when we were all sitting around smoking pot together.yes i said it we all were smoking pot together.what now stupid.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustangman_2000
Must be something in the water, but people in that region of earth when left to their own devices resort to despotism, terrorism, and human rights atrocities.
I'm convinced it's just too damn hot.

Give me a dollar.
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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:49 AM
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I'm convinced it's just too damn hot.
They banned alcohol. It's that simple.
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:53 AM
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They banned alcohol. It's that simple.
That's the worst two things a country can have in combination. Islam ain't helping, either.

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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 02:24 AM
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This region has a stronger meaning than most people realize. It was given to a group of people by God. Unfortunately, there are more than one group claiming to be that heir. They'd be at each others' throats just as bad if the land didn't have valueable resources. Now terrorism, on the other hand, just uses religion as an excuse to kill. Take away the religion and they'll find a different reason to kill. You know how the old saying goes... more people have died in the name of religion more than any other reason in the history of man. It's because religion is such an easy excuse to pawn off on.
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustangman_2000
Funny thing about [religious] radicalism, it's a dogma that's the diametric opposite of common sense or sanity for that matter. Withdrawing U.S. personnel and interest from that region will not end hostility in the middle east.

I would like to see a cessation of hostilities and no more U.S. casualties, but unfortunately we are ostensibly the world police.

Must be something in the water, but people in that region of earth when left to their own devices resort to despotism, terrorism, and human rights atrocities.
You're right, it's going to take more than just withdrawal to calm the hostilities, including dropping foreign aid to Isreal. The entire reason the Middle East hates Western civilization is because we took their land and moved the Jews in. I think they have a very good reason to hate us and wage this terrorism against us, but taking the war to them and spreading our troops all over the entire middle east is not going to make us safer at home either.

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeb
Someone has forgotten about an attack on sovereign US soil. You really think that if the US just pulls out, that middle east hostility will just "go away"


I haven't forgotten and I never will. I support us being in Afghanistan only. I do not think we should be in Iraq.

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
I haven't forgotten and I never will. I support us being in Afghanistan only. I do not think we should be in Iraq.
So you dont support saving thousands of lives that saddam would have killed if we didnt go in onto of the hundreds of thousands he already killed? How about saving the hundreds of thousands when saddam would have had his army fully built and attacked us on OUR soil? Granted 9/11 didnt start the war in IRAQ but it sure as hell helped us open our eyes to what was going on in the rest of the middle east.

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMax404m
So you dont support saving thousands of lives that saddam would have killed if we didnt go in onto of the hundreds of thousands he already killed? How about saving the hundreds of thousands when saddam would have had his army fully built and attacked us on OUR soil? Granted 9/11 didnt start the war in IRAQ but it sure as hell helped us open our eyes to what was going on in the rest of the middle east.
It won't do any good trying to reason with a 20-year-old. They know all the answers...

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax404m
So you dont support saving thousands of lives that saddam would have killed if we didnt go in onto of the hundreds of thousands he already killed? How about saving the hundreds of thousands when saddam would have had his army fully built and attacked us on OUR soil? Granted 9/11 didnt start the war in IRAQ but it sure as hell helped us open our eyes to what was going on in the rest of the middle east.
That's just the thing - we are not the world police. What goes on in Iraq is not our responsibility. Do I agree with what Saddam was doing to his country? No, but it's not our business either in my opinion. It's been proven already that the nuclear programs in Iraq and Iran were abandoned years ago and did not pose a threat to us at all. Now that we've invaded Iraq the recruitments for bin Laden are pouring in. Had we not invaded in the first place then no, I don't believe they would have posed a threat to us at all considering they no longer even had a nuclear program.

Edit: You do realize WE put Saddam in power in Iraq, correct? That's our own doing.


Last edited by Taylor; 06-11-2008 at 12:45 PM.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
If they do that gas prices are going to climb even higher.

If we'd just pull our presence out of Iraq there would be no hostility but that's a lot easier said than done.
Ur fucking retarded you pussy. We pull out of Iraq and we look like a bunch of pussies and pretty son we will have more events like 9-11 and such. We will be known as the country who cant finish what we started and are too pussy to do anything to anybody. Grow some balls and lets finish Iraq. Hell kill them all and take their oil too.

And no I am not stating that Iraq was the reason for 9-11 I was just using that as an example of terrorism
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangguy289
Ur fucking retarded you pussy. We pull out of Iraq and we look like a bunch of pussies and pretty son we will have more events like 9-11 and such. We will be known as the country who cant finish what we started and are too pussy to do anything to anybody. Grow some balls and lets finish Iraq. Hell kill them all and take their oil too.
And by the time the war is over, assuming we don't end up in a conflict with Iran, our dollar will be worth pennies and our entire country in a state of depression. But I guess that's all worth it to not just cut our losses and pull out now, right?

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
And by the time the war is over, assuming we don't end up in a conflict with Iran, our dollar will be worth pennies and our entire country in a state of depression. But I guess that's all worth it to not just cut our losses and pull out now, right?
I was always taught in hs and college history courses as well as economics courses that "real" wars are great for economy. It is a reason a lot of republicans are for wars. Democrats are just pussies afraid to fight and just want to raise taxes.
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
And by the time the war is over, assuming we don't end up in a conflict with Iran, our dollar will be worth pennies and our entire country in a state of depression. But I guess that's all worth it to not just cut our losses and pull out now, right?
If Iran and Iraq became low population "states" of the US...we technically would no longer need to import oil... We would just increase our own reserves and the economy might flourish. personally, fuck the entire middle east and bomb them ALL back to the stone ages where they belong. Get along with the rest of the world or die. Period.



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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor
That's just the thing - we are not the world police. What goes on in Iraq is not our responsibility. Do I agree with what Saddam was doing to his country? No, but it's not our business either in my opinion. It's been proven already that the nuclear programs in Iraq and Iran were abandoned years ago and did not pose a threat to us at all. Now that we've invaded Iraq the recruitments for bin Laden are pouring in. Had we not invaded in the first place then no, I don't believe they would have posed a threat to us at all considering they no longer even had a nuclear program.

Edit: You do realize WE put Saddam in power in Iraq, correct? That's our own doing.
But we ARE the world police. Like denny said in another post, if we dont police the world WE SUFFER. What goes on in Iraq is our responsibility(read your OWN edit). We along with the UN should have shot saddam in the 90s, it was a mistake and NOW we fixed that mistake. They also said the nuclear programs were abandoned years ago in N.Korea LMAO. That is a cat and mouse game though no point in arguing over that issue. The recruitments have been pouring in LONG before we invaded Iraq man and the war in Iraq was NOT over the terrorists it was over saddam and his regime. It just so happens the War on Terror was pushed into Iraq. I say give it another year(probably less) before someone(probably the US) jumps into Iran. Anyone and everyone who hates the US, who controls the US economy(which if anyone has figured out when Iran said they would destroy the US they knew they couldnt do it with fire power but with our economy)is a threat to the US.

Vertnut i dont "argue" with anyone, i respect everyones take on the issues and especially if they push so hard for what they belive in no matter how much 180degrees off of my views it is lol

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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by aggie97
If Iran and Iraq became low population "states" of the US...we technically would no longer need to import oil... We would just increase our own reserves and the economy might flourish. personally, fuck the entire middle east and bomb them ALL back to the stone ages where they belong. Get along with the rest of the world or die. Period.
HA but the ecologists will stop that, they will say the camal is an endangered species

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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMax404m
But we ARE the world police. Like denny said in another post, if we dont police the world WE SUFFER. What goes on in Iraq is our responsibility(read your OWN edit). We along with the UN should have shot saddam in the 90s, it was a mistake and NOW we fixed that mistake. They also said the nuclear programs were abandoned years ago in N.Korea LMAO. That is a cat and mouse game though no point in arguing over that issue. The recruitments have been pouring in LONG before we invaded Iraq man and the war in Iraq was NOT over the terrorists it was over saddam and his regime. It just so happens the War on Terror was pushed into Iraq. I say give it another year(probably less) before someone(probably the US) jumps into Iran. Anyone and everyone who hates the US, who controls the US economy(which if anyone has figured out when Iran said they would destroy the US they knew they couldnt do it with fire power but with our economy)is a threat to the US.

Vertnut i dont "argue" with anyone, i respect everyones take on the issues and especially if they push so hard for what they belive in no matter how much 180degrees off of my views it is lol
I didn't mention "argue"...I said "reason".

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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Vertnut
I didn't mention "argue"...I said "reason".
Well maybe i just read what i wanted to see

I think it would be fun to be stuck with another 19-21yr old leftist and have a debate. I remember doing it in 9th grade debate class but at 15yrs old we werent talking about anything important, although we did agree on who the hottest girl in the class was, i belive that got us a few days of detention

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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMax404m
Well maybe i just read what i wanted to see

I think it would be fun to be stuck with another 19-21yr old leftist and have a debate. I remember doing it in 9th grade debate class but at 15yrs old we werent talking about anything important, although we did agree on who the hottest girl in the class was, i belive that got us a few days of detention
I'm not a leftist. I'm a noninterventionist.

I'll reply to your big reply when I get some time later. Little busy right now.

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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
I'm not a leftist. I'm a noninterventionist.

I'll reply to your big reply when I get some time later. Little busy right now.
Ya i should be busy, but i cant find the motivation today to do anything, just one of them days...problem is with these days 5 o'clock rolls around alot later than normal

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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMax404m
But we ARE the world police. Like denny said in another post, if we dont police the world WE SUFFER. What goes on in Iraq is our responsibility(read your OWN edit). We along with the UN should have shot saddam in the 90s, it was a mistake and NOW we fixed that mistake. They also said the nuclear programs were abandoned years ago in N.Korea LMAO. That is a cat and mouse game though no point in arguing over that issue. The recruitments have been pouring in LONG before we invaded Iraq man and the war in Iraq was NOT over the terrorists it was over saddam and his regime. It just so happens the War on Terror was pushed into Iraq. I say give it another year(probably less) before someone(probably the US) jumps into Iran. Anyone and everyone who hates the US, who controls the US economy(which if anyone has figured out when Iran said they would destroy the US they knew they couldnt do it with fire power but with our economy)is a threat to the US.

Vertnut i dont "argue" with anyone, i respect everyones take on the issues and especially if they push so hard for what they belive in no matter how much 180degrees off of my views it is lol
Well that's a problem now isn't it? lol. I can agree with putting Hussein out of power but he's been out of power for, what, 2 years now? And we're still there.

As for the economy, things like the WTO are just as responsible for our high prices and recession as the Middle East is but I don't see any politicians pushing legislation to pull us out of those bullshit trade agreements.

I just don't think we should be out policing the globe when we have a ton of our own problems at home.

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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 02:22 PM
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200806...s-43a8d4f.html

Why wont the EU listen to Obama that says Iran is not a serious threat?
(We are) particularly thinking of asset freezes of banks
considering..... thinking...... hahahaha that don't mean shit!

I'd say it's Obama that is listening to the EU and UN's take on Iran. The EU isn't going to push for anything crippling on Iran until Iran parades a nuclear tipped ICBM down Main St. The EU will support the US in front of the cameras, so long as President Bush talks about using the UN and not the US military. You’ve got to be smoking rocks if you think the UN Security Council will implement any crippling sanctions on Iran.

No one is going to touch Iran's oil industry so long as Russia and China have a say in it. Without that, all the sanction talk is a joke.

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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor
Well that's a problem now isn't it? lol. I can agree with putting Hussein out of power but he's been out of power for, what, 2 years now? And we're still there.

As for the economy, things like the WTO are just as responsible for our high prices and recession as the Middle East is but I don't see any politicians pushing legislation to pull us out of those bullshit trade agreements.

I just don't think we should be out policing the globe when we have a ton of our own problems at home.
Ya but saddams followers are still there, who would take back control of the country and be an even bigger threat to the US. We have a ton of problems here, but we would have even more if we let the world rot.

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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jones4stangs
(We are) particularly thinking of asset freezes of banks
considering..... thinking...... hahahaha that don't mean shit!

I'd say it's Obama that is listening to the EU and UN's take on Iran. The EU isn't going to push for anything crippling on Iran until Iran parades a nuclear tipped ICBM down Main St. The EU will support the US in front of the cameras, so long as President Bush talks about using the UN and not the US military. You’ve got to be smoking rocks if you think the UN Security Council will implement any crippling sanctions on Iran.

No one is going to touch Iran's oil industry so long as Russia and China have a say in it. Without that, all the sanction talk is a joke.
Ill sum that up in three words, "Talk is cheap" lol

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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 03:23 PM
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I think some of you should do some reading on "Fourth-Generation Warfare."


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post #31 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 04:07 PM
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I think some of you should do some reading on "Fourth-Generation Warfare."
Interesting term, but isn't it easier just to call them terrorist? This term makes it sound like there is a method behind there madness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare

Fourth generation warfare (4GW) is combat characterized by a blurring of the lines between war and politics, soldier and civilian, peace and conflict, battlefield and safety.

Fourth Generation warfare has often involved an insurgent group or non-state entity trying to implement their own government or reestablish an old government over the current ruling power. However, a fourth generation war is most successful when the non-state entity does not attempt, at least in the short term, to impose its own rule, but tries simply to disorganize and delegitimize the state in which the warfare takes place. The aim is to force the state adversary to expend manpower and money in an attempt to establish order, ideally in such a highhanded way that it merely increases disorder, until the state surrenders or withdraws. Fourth generation war could be said to be the ultimate strategy of scorched earth, leaving nothing for the occupier to occupy. Speaking figuratively, the non-state adversary, not being able to expel the invader from his home, tries to bring it down on both their heads, leaving the invader no choice but to leave the ruins alone.

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post #32 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 04:15 PM
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Fourth Generation warfare is a great idea on paper.

Taylor needs to pick up a history book sometime and read about WWI.
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post #33 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 04:43 PM
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Fourth Generation warfare is a great idea on paper.

Taylor needs to pick up a history book sometime and read about WWI.
Please break it down. I don't see the connection.

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post #34 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jones4stangs
Interesting term, but isn't it easier just to call them terrorist? This term makes it sound like there is a method behind there madness.

Not all of it is just random dudes blowing up the first American truck they see.
You can call them whatever you want but don't think they don't know what they're doing. The guys actually blowing themselves up might be retreads of the highest degree but you'd be a fool to think that there's no encouragement or directives given from people who actually do know how strategy works.

Quote:
However, a fourth generation war is most successful when the non-state entity does not attempt, at least in the short term, to impose its own rule, but tries simply to disorganize and delegitimize the state in which the warfare takes place. The aim is to force the state adversary to expend manpower and money in an attempt to establish order, ideally in such a highhanded way that it merely increases disorder, until the state surrenders or withdraws.
The concept of "4GW" shows that it may look unorganized and a bit "Bad-News-Bears-ish", but there is a valid strategy behind the "insurgency."
Whether or not you agree with what got us there is a bit moot right now. Maybe it was shitty, maybe it was unjustified... whatever. But guess what; "Sorry, we'll go home now," isn't going to smooth anything over.
We're there and we don't have a time machine, and I think most of us would agree that leaving that region at this point in time would do nothing but bring a world of pain down the road.


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post #35 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jones4stangs
Interesting term, but isn't it easier just to call them terrorist? This term makes it sound like there is a method behind there madness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare

Fourth generation warfare (4GW) is combat characterized by a blurring of the lines between war and politics, soldier and civilian, peace and conflict, battlefield and safety.

Fourth Generation warfare has often involved an insurgent group or non-state entity trying to implement their own government or reestablish an old government over the current ruling power. However, a fourth generation war is most successful when the non-state entity does not attempt, at least in the short term, to impose its own rule, but tries simply to disorganize and delegitimize the state in which the warfare takes place. The aim is to force the state adversary to expend manpower and money in an attempt to establish order, ideally in such a highhanded way that it merely increases disorder, until the state surrenders or withdraws. Fourth generation war could be said to be the ultimate strategy of scorched earth, leaving nothing for the occupier to occupy. Speaking figuratively, the non-state adversary, not being able to expel the invader from his home, tries to bring it down on both their heads, leaving the invader no choice but to leave the ruins alone.
Sounds like something the Numidians had down before the egyptians started building pyramids.
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post #36 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Taylor
It's been proven already that the nuclear programs in Iraq and Iran were abandoned years ago and did not pose a threat to us at all.
Do you really believe that?


Proven? Because the NIE (US intelligence) said so? These are the same intelligence agencies that people chastized for false info that lead to an invasion a few years ago. Not to mention a good number of European countries disagree with the NIE.

6/10/08: EU to freeze Iranian bank assets if nuclear enrichment continues



5/29/08: US: Iranian warhead blueprint 'alarming'

Quote:
***A ranking International Atomic Energy Agency official called Teheran's possession of a drawing showing how to make part of an atomic warhead "alarming" Thursday and said the onus is on Iran to prove it had not tried to develop nuclear arms, said diplomats attending a closed briefing.

*** a senior diplomat suggested the agency was not accepting as fact US intelligence estimates that the Islamic Republic stopped active pursuit of nuclear weapons five years ago.

*** Heinonen said about 10 nations had provided intelligence and documentation meant to assist his team in investigating the allegations of hidden nuclear weapons work by Iran, said the diplomats.
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...430649,00.html
Quote:
*** Sources tell Time the IAEA has concluded that Iran actually introduced uranium hexafluoride gas into some centrifuges at an undisclosed location to test their ability to work. That would be a blatant violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, to which Iran is a signatory.


Don't forget evidence of their testing of high explosives used to detonate nuclear weapons, their work on a missle re-entry vehicle, their work on a satellite program that can also carry ICBMs, their work on ballistic missiles that can accept nuclear warheads...


.

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post #37 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-11-2008, 11:08 PM
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I honestly don't think that we know our importance to this world (including our land and people) with our role as the world's police.
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post #38 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-15-2008, 03:01 AM
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For the reason why the american economy does better during war see this:




We were warned in the 60s not to dismantle our civilian peaceful manufacturing. That was what made america strong and respected. China said years ago that they would destroy the US without firing a single shot, they intended to do that by taking what made us strong and they have succeed.

Last edited by Slammy; 06-15-2008 at 03:11 AM.
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post #39 of 39 (permalink) Old 06-15-2008, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slammy
We were warned in the 60s not to dismantle our civilian peaceful manufacturing. That was what made america strong and respected. China said years ago that they would destroy the US without firing a single shot, they intended to do that by taking what made us strong and they have succeed.
I believe that was Russian leader Nikita Kruschev who said that "one day, we will take over America, without ever firing a shot".
Course these days there are many countries lickin their chops over that thought especially if they're holding hands with Dubya.
Hell even Pedro Gonzales the bricklayer can accurately say that.

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