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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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I need to be on AR15.com more often!

I wish I knew about David Olofson sooner. Fuck the BATFE!

http://www.firearmscoalition.org/ind...=192&Itemid=37

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 12:29 AM
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cliffs notes?

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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He lent out an AR, it slam-fired/hammer followed once at the range, and the BATFE is fucking him without lube over illegally transferring an MG.

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:12 AM
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what did he expect?

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
what did he expect?
For a semi-auto rifle to not be considered a machine gun due to a malfunction. Further, for the judge to follow precedent and professional advice on his ruling. Read the article to better understand it.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 03:09 AM
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Fuck the ATF.

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 08:18 AM
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I didn't see the latest update thread as one of your links...

He was just sentenced to 30 fucking months in prison.





People have been sentenced to less time for KILLING someone.




As I sip coffee out of my Bolt Face Logo mug this morning I wonder about the future of all of our rights... and I'm not having happy thoughts today.


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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 08:25 AM
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that doesn't happen everyday, but it's not uncommon for a semi-auto weapon to malfunction and go full auto with little to no control. it's ridiculous that they would charge him for something like that! i'm assuming that the gun was a post 1968 gun?

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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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From what I read, it was an off the shelf AR. Fuck the BATFE again, for good measure.

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:00 AM
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The ATF can fuck up anything!
The most rediculous branch of law enforcement ever made.

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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:04 AM
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i still don't know exactly wtf is going on
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grove rat
i still don't know exactly wtf is going on

I haven't read everything (there's months worth of stuff) but basically he let someone borrow one of his ARs. While the loanee had the gun at the range, and after putting a couple hundred rounds through it, there was a malfunction which caused the gun to go full auto. ATF gets involved, search, seizure, court, etc. The guy who loaned the gun is now going to jail for 2.5 years.


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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strychnine
I haven't read everything (there's months worth of stuff) but basically he let someone borrow one of his ARs. While the loanee had the gun at the range, and after putting a couple hundred rounds through it, there was a malfunction which caused the gun to go full auto. ATF gets involved, search, siezure, court, etc. The guy who loaned the gun is now going to jail for 2.5 years.
so they fuck him because the gun malfunctioned!? damn that's some fucked up shit

so did his buddy that he lent it to go to the atf or something? how did the atf know/find out
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grove rat
i still don't know exactly wtf is going on

Here's a quick rundown:



"Olofson is a regular guy who happens to be fond of AR15 style sport-utility rifles. He loaned a rifle to a friend. While the friend was shooting it he moved the safety switch to a point beyond the Fire position. The rifle fired a couple of short bursts and jammed. Someone at or near the club called the police to complain about machinegun fire. The police notified the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) and David Olofson was subsequently charged and convicted of illegally transferring a machinegun.

Neither Olofson nor his friend was charged with possession of an unregistered machinegun or with illegally manufacturing, modifying, or otherwise making a machinegun. Obviously ATF did not believe they could convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Olofson or his friend had intentionally altered the rifle to fire full-auto so they prosecuted on the easier charge of transferring. Everyone agreed that the gun belonged to Olofson and that he had loaned it to his friend. That meant that the only issue in question in the case was whether the gun was a machinegun. Since ATF is the final arbiter in determining whether a gun is a machinegun, and the law defining machineguns tends to be selectively interpreted by them, the government had a distinct advantage.
As a matter of fact, when the ATF Firearms Technical Branch (FTB) examined the rifle they concluded that it was not a machinegun. They did find that if the Safety switch was moved beyond its normal range of motion, the gun would fire once and jam, leaving a loaded round in the chamber. They determined that moving the Safety in such a way interfered with the trigger disconnector causing the hammer to follow the bolt as it returned to battery rather than being stopped by the sear; a fairly common malfunction known as hammer-follow.

At the request of the local ATF agent, the FTB tested the gun a second time using a brand of .223 ammunition known for having sensitive primers. Those tests resulted in intermittent, unregulated, automatic fire and jamming due to hammer-follow, but this time the FTB concluded that, under strict interpretation of the law, the gunís malfunction did make it a machinegun."



Lots of bullshit surrounding this one.



The first link has a good read: http://www.firearmscoalition.org/ind...=192&Itemid=37


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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:16 AM
que?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strychnine
Here's a quick rundown:



"Olofson is a regular guy who happens to be fond of AR15 style sport-utility rifles. He loaned a rifle to a friend. While the friend was shooting it he moved the safety switch to a point beyond the Fire position. The rifle fired a couple of short bursts and jammed. Someone at or near the club called the police to complain about machinegun fire. The police notified the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) and David Olofson was subsequently charged and convicted of illegally transferring a machinegun.

Neither Olofson nor his friend was charged with possession of an unregistered machinegun or with illegally manufacturing, modifying, or otherwise making a machinegun. Obviously ATF did not believe they could convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Olofson or his friend had intentionally altered the rifle to fire full-auto so they prosecuted on the easier charge of transferring. Everyone agreed that the gun belonged to Olofson and that he had loaned it to his friend. That meant that the only issue in question in the case was whether the gun was a machinegun. Since ATF is the final arbiter in determining whether a gun is a machinegun, and the law defining machineguns tends to be selectively interpreted by them, the government had a distinct advantage.
As a matter of fact, when the ATF Firearms Technical Branch (FTB) examined the rifle they concluded that it was not a machinegun. They did find that if the Safety switch was moved beyond its normal range of motion, the gun would fire once and jam, leaving a loaded round in the chamber. They determined that moving the Safety in such a way interfered with the trigger disconnector causing the hammer to follow the bolt as it returned to battery rather than being stopped by the sear; a fairly common malfunction known as hammer-follow.

At the request of the local ATF agent, the FTB tested the gun a second time using a brand of .223 ammunition known for having sensitive primers. Those tests resulted in intermittent, unregulated, automatic fire and jamming due to hammer-follow, but this time the FTB concluded that, under strict interpretation of the law, the gunís malfunction did make it a machinegun."



Lots of bullshit surrounding this one.



The first link has a good read: http://www.firearmscoalition.org/ind...=192&Itemid=37
so they use ammo with sensitive primers to set the guy up, damnt that's fucked up.
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grove rat
so they use ammo with sensitive primers to set the guy up, damnt that's fucked up.
The problem is that the BATFE is only justifiable in its current incarnation if they're constantly busting people. It's kind of like the DEA.

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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:47 AM
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good god... and TAC triggers are legal! So you're saying I could bump fire my AR at a range, literally firing it full auto for 30 rounds, and that's legal, but some guy with a malfunction gets fucked up? That's why I don't shoot at ranges, and why I don't lend weapons out.
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:52 AM
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I havent been able to keep up with this thing.

Personally, it all sounds shady from both sides.

Moral: If your shit is broke, fix it. Dont let frends borrow guns.
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I havent been able to keep up with this thing.

Personally, it all sounds shady from both sides.

Moral: If your shit is broke, fix it. Dont let frends borrow guns.
right, sounds like this rifle might have been toyed with a bit. I really don't think the BATF would rail someone unless there was something there.
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ
good god... and TAC triggers are legal! So you're saying I could bump fire my AR at a range, literally firing it full auto for 30 rounds, and that's legal, but some guy with a malfunction gets fucked up? That's why I don't shoot at ranges, and why I don't lend weapons out.

Have you not seen the shoestring letter?



Oh man...hold while I google, then prepare for the shitstorm.


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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:00 PM
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Here's why the ATF will never get any respect from me. We're supposed to trust people that do things like what's below?


This is the shoestring in question:




Read this letter:




Did you catch that?

Quote:
In 1996, FTB examined and classified a 14-inch long shoestring with a loop at each end...

Because thie item was designed and intended to convert a semi-automatic rifle into a machinegun, FTB has determined that it was a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b).



I guess after a while they got tired of dealing with the shitstorm and issued a retraction:




What a bunch of inept retards.


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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:15 PM
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lol.

But, a rubber band is legal according to another BATF letter I've seen.
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strychnine
Here's why the ATF will never get any respect from me. We're supposed to trust people that do things like what's below?


This is the shoestring in question:




Read this letter:




Did you catch that?






I guess after a while they got tired of dealing with the shitstorm and issued a retraction:




What a bunch of inept retards.
I'm all for gun rights, but I would consider that borderline illegal myself. He's just trying to push the limit. It doesn't matter what the device is made of (shoestring in this case), the intent was for auto fire.
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ruffdaddy
I'm all for gun rights, but I would consider that borderline illegal myself. He's just trying to push the limit. It doesn't matter what the device is made of (shoestring in this case), the intent was for auto fire.
The laws against automatic fire are unconstitutional. Does that make me a patriot or a rebel for saying we should be allowed the firearms in question without clause?

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ruffdaddy
I'm all for gun rights, but I would consider that borderline illegal myself. He's just trying to push the limit. It doesn't matter what the device is made of (shoestring in this case), the intent was for auto fire.

Disregarding the debate on the legality of the NFA (1934), GCA (1968) and FOPA (1986) laws, they classified a SHOESTRING as a MACHINEGUN.
It took them 3 years to change their mind and add a "when used in conjunction with... blah blah" clause.


Granted it would never been enforced as such, but in effect that letter made you and I both felons in an instant.

You don't see any problem with a government agency (that has the ability to ruin your life) not having enough common sense to see the error in that?


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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by futant
The ATF can fuck up anything!
The most rediculous branch of law enforcement ever made.
They are also the most profitable federal agency there is there return on money is 33:1 and they also convict more people than anyone else. I know someone that did 18mos for having a full-auto ak that didnt know it just bought from the gun store as a surplus rifle and never shot it. first time offender with money and couldnt buy his way out of it for nothing.
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strychnine
Disregarding the debate on the legality of the NFA (1934), GCA (1968) and FOPA (1986) laws, they classified a SHOESTRING as a MACHINEGUN.
It took them 3 years to change their mind and add a "when used in conjunction with... blah blah" clause.


Granted it would never been enforced as such, but in effect that letter made you and I both felons in an instant.

You don't see any problem with a government agency (that has the ability to ruin your life) not having enough common sense to see the error in that?
This thread illustrates the fundamental problem with big government, IE it just turns into a bunch of inept retards trying to get a paycheck.

Really, what do you expect from the ATF? As an agency they are a fucking joke. I can't for the life of me figure out how the agency survived the ass kicking they took at Waco.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 02:33 PM
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Jesus christ I have 2 machine guns on me right now!
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ
Jesus christ I have 2 machine guns on me right now!
Criminal!

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-17-2008, 10:23 PM
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There is a documentary called "the gang" if I remember right. It was about the ATF's strong arm tactics and harassment. Opened my eyes to their ways. I wouldn't want to deal with them at all. Same thing happened in that video. An assault rifle malfuntioned and fired a couple of rounds on burst and you know the rest....
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post #31 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-17-2008, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 93coupelx
There is a documentary called "the gang" if I remember right. It was about the ATF's strong arm tactics and harassment. Opened my eyes to their ways. I wouldn't want to deal with them at all. Same thing happened in that video. A semi-automatic rifle malfuntioned and fired a couple of rounds on burst and you know the rest....
Fixed.


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post #32 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-18-2008, 12:28 AM
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I knew a guy that something similiar happened to him . The ATF took his rifle and had it for several months because it was said to be capable of firing multiple rounds in small burst . Anyways , after a long court battle , several thousand dollars in court fees and many months down the road , my friend is cleared of any wrong doing . When he asked to get his gun back , they first told him they could not find it . Later he was told they destroyed it .

I do not know a whole lot about guns but know this was not your average $1000 AR model rifle . He paid someone really good money to build this gun for him and it was suppose to be 100% legal to have it .
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post #33 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-18-2008, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ
right, sounds like this rifle might have been toyed with a bit. I really don't think the BATF would rail someone unless there was something there.
That's my biggest problem with it, depending on the rifle, it really doesn't have to be toyed with at all. It's a fairly common event/problem.
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