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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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possible loophole in searches/seizures being conducted

Supreme Court says police may search even if arrest invalid

Apr 23 12:02 PM US/Eastern
By PETE YOST
Associated Press Writer Write a Comment


WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court affirmed Wednesday that police have the power to conduct searches and seize evidence, even when done during an arrest that turns out to have violated state law.
The unanimous decision comes in a case from Portsmouth, Va., where city detectives seized crack cocaine from a motorist after arresting him for a traffic ticket offense.

David Lee Moore was pulled over for driving on a suspended license. The violation is a minor crime in Virginia and calls for police to issue a court summons and let the driver go.

Instead, city detectives arrested Moore and prosecutors say that drugs taken from him in a subsequent search can be used against him as evidence.

"We reaffirm against a novel challenge what we have signaled for half a century," Justice Antonin Scalia wrote.

Scalia said that when officers have probable cause to believe a person has committed a crime in their presence, the Fourth Amendment permits them to make an arrest and to search the suspect in order to safeguard evidence and ensure their own safety.

Moore was convicted on a drug charge and sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison.

The Virginia Supreme Court ruled that police should have released Moore and could not lawfully conduct a search.

State law, said the Virginia Supreme Court, restricted officers to issuing a ticket in exchange for a promise to appear later in court. Virginia courts dismissed the indictment against Moore.

Moore argued that the Fourth Amendment permits a search only following a lawful state arrest.

In a concurring opinion, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said she finds more support for Moore's position in previous court cases than the rest of the court does. But she said she agrees that the arrest and search of Moore was constitutional, even though it violated Virginia law.

The Bush administration and attorneys general from 18 states lined up in support of Virginia prosecutors.

The federal government said Moore's case had the potential to greatly increase the class of unconstitutional arrests, resulting in evidence seized during searches being excluded with increasing frequency.

Looking to state laws to provide the basis for searches would introduce uncertainty into the legal system, the 18 states said in court papers.

___

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe someone more law savy can explain this , but to me it appears the defendant was arrested without cause , then searched / drugs seized.

However later in the article it states that the officer did have some kind of probable cause that a crime was commited in his presence.

BUT THE WHOLE ARTICLE doesn't mention that what probable cause this was , and why the officer wouldn't have simply searched before making the arrest.

It basically looks like the officer made an unlawful arrest , then later found something so they could charge him.
IT's the same bullshit when a cop pulls you over, doesn't know why and is clearly looking around your car for something wrong.
It's happened plenty of times to me. Not to mention all the times cops have asked to search my vehicle for no reason but to harrass people.
Now it looks like they can arrest you for no reason (according to the federal government AG's that showed up) , then find something to charge you with.

Hell why give them any guidelines to work under at this rate, just make it a free for all law enforcement !

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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Hey why not at this rate make all seizures possible for even search warrants that are proven invalid!

WTF is going on with our rights?

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 01:23 PM
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They should have towed his car and made his crackhead ass walk home since he didn't have a driver's license. Then while it's in the impound lot walk a drug sniffing dog by and get their probable cause to search. Even if they didn't find anything in the car there would have been one less crackhead driving around without a license.

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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP
They should have towed his car and made his crackhead ass walk home since he didn't have a driver's license. Then while it's in the impound lot walk a drug sniffing dog by and get their probable cause to search. Even if they didn't find anything in the car there would have been one less crackhead driving around without a license.
oh yeah im totally for this.
It's just that driving without a license is I guess not an arrestable offense is what I took from the article.
I don't expect you to know the law , but the police should know this I would expect. Maybe my expectation is too high , ive noticed many police seem to not know the law.

I recall once a cop threatened to arrest me because I failed to show him my CHL. When in fact you are not supposed to show your CHL unless you are carrying your weapon.
try explaining that to the power hungry dipshits I've met

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 02:05 PM
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[QUOTE=futant]

I recall once a cop threatened to arrest me because I failed to show him my CHL. When in fact you are not supposed to show your CHL unless you are carrying your weapon.


I call BS on that one... show me where it says not to show the CHL if stopped.

In fact the opposite is true I believe. I think you're supposed to show it whether you're carrying or not..

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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 02:52 PM
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It is a Class B Offense to NOT disclose licensure:



GC §411.205.

DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY.

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by Section 411.187.

(b) A person commits an offense if the person fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by Subsection (a) after previously having had the person's license suspended for a violation of that subsection. An offense under this subsection is a Class B misdemeanor.


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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
It is a Class B Offense to NOT disclose licensure:

Please read the law yourself !

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person



I WAS NOT CARRYING!!!
this was explained in the CHL class...

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mardyn

I call BS on that one... show me where it says not to show the CHL if stopped.

In fact the opposite is true I believe. I think you're supposed to show it whether you're carrying or not..

mardyn

Believe me I highly suggest you just give it to them carrying or not.
They are stupid enough to arrest you.

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 09:33 PM
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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http://docket.medill.northwestern.ed...ves/004610.php

more case information
IT APPEARS the state did not even present any evidence whatsoever about what the probable cause is for Moore's arrest.
It clearly states this is a ticketable offense only.
And that the police just felt like arresting him.

this is a sad day for your right against unnecessary searches and seizures.

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 10:36 AM
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Isnt any ticketable offense also technically an arrestable offense?

I really dont know, but I had heard that somewhere....

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
http://docket.medill.northwestern.ed...ves/004610.php

more case information
IT APPEARS the state did not even present any evidence whatsoever about what the probable cause is for Moore's arrest.
It clearly states this is a ticketable offense only.
And that the police just felt like arresting him.

this is a sad day for your right against unnecessary searches and seizures.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
Isnt any ticketable offense also technically an arrestable offense?

I really dont know, but I had heard that somewhere....
Naw I don't believe so.
IE you can be speeding , but you must be going over 25 mph above the posted limit in texas to face arrest.

Should be a similar comparison. Basically Moore was arrested for driving without a license when it should have been a ticket and at most a tow(cop can't let him drive away). Technically I don't even see how they can tow his vehicle since he could call someone to get it and if it didn't impede traffic where he pulls over that would be about the only other reason to force a tow away.

I'll give a reason why I think this is a trappleing of our rights - once a garland pd pulled over me when i was a kid out past curfew. They proceeded to pull us all out of the vehicle and arrest me, put me in the car, read me rights etc.
Then they searched the whole vehicle and questioned all of us individually.
At some point the dumbasses realized we were up to nothing and let us all go with a ticket.
The point was the cops not only did all of this with no probable cause (at least none that was told to me, nor was I asked to consent search) , I was also 'being arrested' for no reason!
Basically according to this loophole this thread is about , they can arrest me , then that gives them reason to search me/belongings.
So in effect all they need are two things now - probable cause , or any reason they want to arrest me, even if that reason is BS, such as this case was with Moore. Totally invalid arrest according to STATE LAW.
But they can still charge him with what they found.... even after they never had to state what probable cause was for this arrest, or what safety issue the officer felt.

It's like giving the cops a freebie card for searches when the reason they are going to arrest you doesn't even have to valid.
It flys in the face of common sense entirely.
You have no rights then.

Citizen show me your papers!
Get out of the car!
Youre being arrested!

For what?
For whatever. Hopefully something I can find in your car

It's a joke what law enforcement and law makers are doing to your rights!
Law enforcement is half ass educated on the laws, and they act with near impunity for the city. Then the damn law makers come in and just want to appease them and make their job easier to abuse what little rights you have left.

At some point you've all given up what you hold most dear, privacy, and you wonder why all the shit from your car is laying all over the side of the road !
Don't act like you haven't seen these people when you drive down the freeway!
Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you should be treated like this is Nazi Germany.

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Last edited by futant; 04-24-2008 at 12:18 PM.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 01:09 PM
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 01:44 PM
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Why would you NOT carry ID on you? What happens if you need to be identified, a la a car wreck? Incapacitation, or what have you?
I know a few people who, due to their smart mouth, have been taken in for failure to produce ID.

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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by futant
Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you should be treated like this is Nazi Germany..
That's WAY over the top. We aren't exactly being driven in cattle cars to the death camps. I assure you the Jews that died in that attempt at mass extermination would LOVE to be in your situation.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
Why would you NOT carry ID on you? What happens if you need to be identified, a la a car wreck? Incapacitation, or what have you?
I know a few people who, due to their smart mouth, have been taken in for failure to produce ID.
You obviously can't read or comprehend what I have posted.
I never said i didn't have ID . I said I didn't supply my CHL when I wasn't carrying a weapon.
Go back and READ. I will not respond to you if you intend to waste my time on something ive explained twice already.

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
That's WAY over the top. We aren't exactly being driven in cattle cars to the death camps. I assure you the Jews that died in that attempt at mass extermination would LOVE to be in your situation.
Really ?

Could this not be used on nearly anyone to arrest them for anything , then later find something to 'charge' them with?

According to this, I could show up at your house for a noise complaint, feel like arresting you for it (although illegal) , then search your house until I can find something to charge you with.

You don't think that is much like Nazi Germany? Invading people houses for no legit reason, taking them away?
The comparison is drastic for a reason. It's to make you think about how close this 'trivial' little law puts us to this historically sad time.

Think about it. The state did not even present what Moore ever did to be arrested. No probable cause was mentioned at all, just that there must have been one. The state even admits he was unlawfully arrested but they still think that evidence they found should be valid, no matter how they seized it.

Basically this puts the cart before the horse.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 05:00 PM
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7 million Jews were exterminated at the hands of the Nazis, on one hand. Nazis went through Jewish villages, put every person on a cattle car, destroyed every shred of paperwork that existed that might alldue to that town's history, even smashing tombstones to undecipherable pieces to prevent ANY part of that town surviving.

OTOH, someone else got inconvenienced.


No....not seeing any parallels. None. Zero. Zip.


Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
Really ?

Could this not be used on nearly anyone to arrest them for anything , then later find something to 'charge' them with?

According to this, I could show up at your house for a noise complaint, feel like arresting you for it (although illegal) , then search your house until I can find something to charge you with.

You don't think that is much like Nazi Germany? Invading people houses for no legit reason, taking them away?
The comparison is drastic for a reason. It's to make you think about how close this 'trivial' little law puts us to this historically sad time.

Think about it. The state did not even present what Moore ever did to be arrested. No probable cause was mentioned at all, just that there must have been one. The state even admits he was unlawfully arrested but they still think that evidence they found should be valid, no matter how they seized it.

Basically this puts the cart before the horse.

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 05:10 PM
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I haven't read the entire ruling but it sounds to me as if the Supreme Court is simply saying that the Constitution establishes the basis of a proper search and seizure, not State Law. So it doesn't matter if state law says it was an invalid arrest, the Constitution doesn't support that and probable cause existed so the search and seizure were legal..

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 05:14 PM
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I have one question about the whole thing, that I did not gather from reading any of the information above. Did the police officer ask him if he could search the car, and if he did, did Moore give him permission? If he did, then he screwed up. If a cop asks me to search my vehicle, I am asking why, and I am demanding a search warrant, very loudly, to make sure that the dashcam video can hear me as they are dragging me outta the car.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 05:21 PM
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...

Speaking of the supreme court, this was a scene from Boston Legal last night.

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
Really ?

Could this not be used on nearly anyone to arrest them for anything , then later find something to 'charge' them with?

According to this, I could show up at your house for a noise complaint, feel like arresting you for it (although illegal) , then search your house until I can find something to charge you with.

You don't think that is much like Nazi Germany? Invading people houses for no legit reason, taking them away?
The comparison is drastic for a reason. It's to make you think about how close this 'trivial' little law puts us to this historically sad time.

Think about it. The state did not even present what Moore ever did to be arrested. No probable cause was mentioned at all, just that there must have been one. The state even admits he was unlawfully arrested but they still think that evidence they found should be valid, no matter how they seized it.

Basically this puts the cart before the horse.
Very, very well said, sir.

You're exactly right. This is just another step in the process of this country becoming a police state. Martial Law is not far off, if we have no privacy, we have nothing.

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
7 million Jews were exterminated at the hands of the Nazis, on one hand. Nazis went through Jewish villages, put every person on a cattle car, destroyed every shred of paperwork that existed that might alldue to that town's history, even smashing tombstones to undecipherable pieces to prevent ANY part of that town surviving.

OTOH, someone else got inconvenienced.


No....not seeing any parallels. None. Zero. Zip.
Your extremely narrow mind is likely the cause of this.

Expand your train of thought here, GeneralizeEm. The man has a very valid point.

He wasn't analogizing this concept with Nazi Germany by means of analyzing their policy towards other ethnic groups. He simply said that the secret police, or the gestapo, used this sort of tactic to gain entry to peoples homes, destroy privacy, and intimidate the masses. He's not saying that the police exterminated Jews, as much as it might seem that way to people like yourself.

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Beavis
I haven't read the entire ruling but it sounds to me as if the Supreme Court is simply saying that the Constitution establishes the basis of a proper search and seizure, not State Law. So it doesn't matter if state law says it was an invalid arrest, the Constitution doesn't support that and probable cause existed so the search and seizure were legal..
Interesting insight, most people wouldn't see it like that.

Of course that begs the question, Where lies then the burden of proof?

Where does that place those of us on the receiving end of police action?

Does this give police every right to enter your home without PC? I don't think I'm quite understanding.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Your extremely narrow mind is likely the cause of this.

Expand your train of thought here, GeneralizeEm. The man has a very valid point.

He wasn't analogizing this concept with Nazi Germany by means of analyzing their policy towards other ethnic groups. He simply said that the secret police, or the gestapo, used this sort of tactic to gain entry to peoples homes, destroy privacy, and intimidate the masses. He's not saying that the police exterminated Jews, as much as it might seem that way to people like yourself.
Moreover, this is but one of the several ways the current state of things mirrors very closely the tactics used and abused during the Nazi era in Germany. This is just another one of them. The descent into tyranny here in this country does not require a trained sense to detect, the evidence is all around us. For this reason it seems that the current regime undermines the collective intelligence of the American people, aiming to subversively, systematically smear every definition specifically outlined in the constitution.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-24-2008, 07:43 PM
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Comparing the extermination of millions upon millions of Jews to this is offensive. Period.

This has nothing to do with Nazism.

Does it suck? Sure. Is it cause for raising the Auschwitz flag? No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Your extremely narrow mind is likely the cause of this.

Expand your train of thought here, GeneralizeEm. The man has a very valid point.

He wasn't analogizing this concept with Nazi Germany by means of analyzing their policy towards other ethnic groups. He simply said that the secret police, or the gestapo, used this sort of tactic to gain entry to peoples homes, destroy privacy, and intimidate the masses. He's not saying that the police exterminated Jews, as much as it might seem that way to people like yourself.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-25-2008, 07:30 AM
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Or you could just not read my post. Where did you learn to read?

We're not talking about the killing of jews here. We're talking about police tactics during the nazi reign.

Get it now?

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-25-2008, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
Comparing the extermination of millions upon millions of Jews to this is offensive. Period.

This has nothing to do with Nazism.

Does it suck? Sure. Is it cause for raising the Auschwitz flag? No.
Edit: I strayed off topic, my mistake.

I agree with you on this one, so you aren't alone. I understand the comparison that is being made, but it is no where near the same thing as Nazi Germany. Bottom line is, if this guy hadn't been breaking the law to begin with, then he would have nothing to worry about.

This case leads me to another topic. When police shut down an entire road for a "DWI checkpoint." Is this legal? Probably not. They are stopping 10s to 100s of people a night with absolutely no probable cause. The do the initial investigation to see what they can find. They write tickets for everything at these, not just DWI's. Am I ok with this? Sure, I have nothing to hide. Only the people that are "busted" have an issue, but again they were breaking the law. I feel in no way that this is a step towards socialism. Don't break the law and you have nothing to worry about. The only thing that I have issue with is them stopping people without necessarily having probable cause. Now if there is an issue with drunk drivers commonly traveling this certain road, then that to me is probable cause to stop anybody and everybody when they feel its necessary.

Last edited by kc50lx; 04-25-2008 at 10:07 AM.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-28-2008, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kc50lx
Edit: I strayed off topic, my mistake.

I agree with you on this one, so you aren't alone. I understand the comparison that is being made, but it is no where near the same thing as Nazi Germany. Bottom line is, if this guy hadn't been breaking the law to begin with, then he would have nothing to worry about.

This case leads me to another topic. When police shut down an entire road for a "DWI checkpoint." Is this legal? Probably not. They are stopping 10s to 100s of people a night with absolutely no probable cause. The do the initial investigation to see what they can find. They write tickets for everything at these, not just DWI's. Am I ok with this? Sure, I have nothing to hide. Only the people that are "busted" have an issue, but again they were breaking the law. I feel in no way that this is a step towards socialism. Don't break the law and you have nothing to worry about. The only thing that I have issue with is them stopping people without necessarily having probable cause. Now if there is an issue with drunk drivers commonly traveling this certain road, then that to me is probable cause to stop anybody and everybody when they feel its necessary.
Yes , like Zara said my comparision is NOT about the EXTERMINATION of Jews. OF course not the police didn't kill Moore!
The tactics they used though are getting much closer to what the was done during this era.

I'm glad to see anyone is even reading this and thinking, so please do not take offense to my comparison. I am only talking about the tactics used to assumably find and exterminate Jews.

However these DWI checkpoints are typically totally illegal tactics , and let me explain why :
CITIZEN Show me your papers! (again try not to be offended)
basically this is what they are doing on the side of the road , unprovoked in these cases late at night...
The point is , you commited no crime by driving on that road. There is no reason to be detained and be forced to submit identification. Again this is the cart before the horse. Here in America we are free to travel FREELY and not be accused of a crime by simply driving down a road in an overzealous enforcement community.

You are innocent but being tested to see if there is anything they can find illegal about you, stickers , breath smells like dwi, eyes hazy whatever , IT's BS.
It's the same BS they try to use at fry's electronics to stop theft , those guys have no right to detain you at the exit just to check your receipt. People don't seem to get this , they just want what is for the better good of everyone.
And i can see that . For instance if there are loose perpetrators that have highjacked a car down the freeway, this polling of cars would seem like a great tactic to catch these Aholes.
However that is never the case , is it?
I really have no problem with check points, since most of the time they are just going to look at your ID and tell you drive on.
But think of how far they could take them?
According to Moores case , you could simply have an out of date drivers license, or forgot your insurance card or just be really mouthy with the LEO on scene .
Then guess what? They feel like arresting you for a misdemeanor, then they search your car and find an 'unknown pill' (say one your cousin accidently dropped in between a seat in your car) ( could even be an over-the-counter type)

Now your charged with possesion of an illicit substance, even though it was obtained illegally by the officers - STill admissable in court according to this case with Moore.
Now you get to prove you are innocent, you know once..... you get out of jail, get a new job and get on with you life with out pummeling your cousin or the arresting officer.
Believe me , this shit is already happening. I can't think of how many people I know that have been harrassed or arrested about a 'unidentified pill'.
Welcome to the drug war. On war on your last rights to privacy.

Again , now does any one see the dangers of putting this 'cart before the horse' ?
This is very bad, but I do see how it helps law enforcement handle these fringe cases.
Basically a COMPLETE DISMISSAL OF YOUR RIGHTS against unnessecary search and seizure.

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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-28-2008, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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More info -
http://www.bobbattlelaw.com/library/Moore%20v%20CW.pdf

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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-28-2008, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/06-1082.htm


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/...hes/index.html

April 23, Supreme court seems to uphold their decision


Here is the perfect example of why they shouldn't have :


At trial, Moore's lawyers tried to suppress the evidence, but the state judge allowed it, even though the court noted the arrest violated state law. A police detective, asked why the man was arrested, replied, "Just our prerogative."


But Moore's attorney, Thomas Goldstein, called an "extreme proposition" the idea
that it would be reasonable "to go out and arrest someone for a non-arrestable offense and not only do that, but having committed that trespass at common law, to further search them."

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Last edited by futant; 04-28-2008 at 12:59 PM.
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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-28-2008, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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So I think that about ends any arguement.

FACTS LEFT:

Police can arrest you for WHAT EVER they want, even jay walking.

They can then search you and charge you for anything they find


Any final arguements?
This is a sad day , April 23, 2008, for our collective rights as citizens of this once free country.

This give the police no reason they could not show up at your house on a noise disturbance and arrest you and search your whole house!
WAKE UP PEOPLE.
THIS IS the begining of the end.

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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-28-2008, 01:22 PM
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I was udner the impression jaywalking had always been an arestable offense....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
So I think that about ends any arguement.

FACTS LEFT:

Police can arrest you for WHAT EVER they want, even jay walking.

They can then search you and charge you for anything they find


Any final arguements?
This is a sad day , April 23, 2008, for our collective rights as citizens of this once free country.

This give the police no reason they could not show up at your house on a noise disturbance and arrest you and search your whole house!
WAKE UP PEOPLE.
THIS IS the begining of the end.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-29-2008, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futant
So I think that about ends any arguement.

FACTS LEFT:

Police can arrest you for WHAT EVER they want, even jay walking.

They can then search you and charge you for anything they find


Any final arguements?
This is a sad day , April 23, 2008, for our collective rights as citizens of this once free country.

This give the police no reason they could not show up at your house on a noise disturbance and arrest you and search your whole house!
WAKE UP PEOPLE.
THIS IS the begining of the end.
Good post(s), sir!

These are truly sad days. We're just letting it happen.

Of course there's no final arguments. Case in point, the prior post.


Our most powerful weapon is awareness.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-29-2008, 12:35 AM
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Spot on, once again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Good post(s), sir!

These are truly sad days. We're just letting it happen.

Of course there's no final arguments. Case in point, the prior post.


Our most powerful weapon is awareness.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
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