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post #1 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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"The Issues"

Abortion • Economic Stimulus
Energy • Housing • Iran • Iraq
Same-sex marriage • Taxes

Uh...Afganistan? Is that no longer a topic of at least strategic interest, nevermind motivated interest for the US's presence to root-out 'threatening' risks to our 'security'?

Discusting, if you ask me.

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post #2 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ
Abortion • Economic Stimulus
Energy • Housing • Iran • Iraq
Same-sex marriage • Taxes

Uh...Afganistan? Is that no longer a topic of at least strategic interest, nevermind motivated interest for the US's presence to root-out 'threatening' risks to our 'security'?

Discusting, if you ask me.
It's "disgusting", too.

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post #3 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vertnut
It's "disgusting", too.
doh, that too!

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post #4 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 09:54 AM
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They can't list every little whim and rant. Notice Paris Hilton is not on there either. It must just be a selected summary.
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post #5 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 10:11 AM
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LMAO at same sex marriage. You only hear about it at campaign time.

I thought the only issues were *racism*religion*the hispanic vote*the black vote*and same sex marriage.

Afganistan? Is there something going on there?

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand!
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post #6 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Afghanistan is no longer the buzz, which upsets me.

So, the greatest threat(s) to America's security is in Iraq and Iran? And we are there to preemptively squash possible breaches in that security? What else could possibly justify pouring my money into our countries flagrant expenditures abroad.

I mean, that’s what our foreign policy is primarily about right; protecting American's security and perhaps fostering positive trade relations among the nations?

If I were a serviceman, and the US's policy/activity in Afghanistan WAS NOT an important enough issue to make CNN's 'issues list for presidential candidates' I'd be confused and pissed. How insulting, especially as Americans are so highly divided on the topic.


There WILL NEVER be a secure America. Ever, no matter who is in command. There will ONLY be sways in the perception of security.

Shit security of terroristic threat isn't even a number 1 killer, its horrible if it happens, but those occurrences full waaaaaay on the outliers of the curve. Reasonable security lies closer to the center, and it will just sway there back and forth.

I'm SICK of seeing the social quality and infrastructure of this country continue down-hill, while debt runs up-hill, in the name of global philanthropy and lax population control. So many problems this country faces are SYMPTOMS of our loving and giving nature, and forgetfulness about what a PRIVLIDGE it is to call yourself an American citizen. Citizenship should be EARNED, I would argue, even for domestically born individuals; to me it’s that VALUABLE. Yet we hand out this country's resources (insert American tax payer dollars) out to the masses while grumbling about our weakening dollar and 'immigration policy'...



Sorry getting off soap box now,

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post #7 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ
Afghanistan is no longer the buzz, which upsets me.

So, the greatest threat(s) to America's security is in Iraq and Iran? And we are there to preemptively squash possible breaches in that security? What else could possibly justify pouring my money into our countries flagrant expenditures abroad.

I mean, that’s what our foreign policy is primarily about right; protecting American's security and perhaps fostering positive trade relations among the nations?

If I were a serviceman, and the US's policy/activity in Afghanistan WAS NOT an important enough issue to make CNN's 'issues list for presidential candidates' I'd be confused and pissed. How insulting, especially as Americans are so highly divided on the topic.


There WILL NEVER be a secure America. Ever, no matter who is in command. There will ONLY be sways in the perception of security.

Shit security of terroristic threat isn't even a number 1 killer, its horrible if it happens, but those occurrences full waaaaaay on the outliers of the curve. Reasonable security lies closer to the center, and it will just sway there back and forth.

I'm SICK of seeing the social quality and infrastructure of this country continue down-hill, while debt runs up-hill, in the name of global philanthropy and lax population control. So many problems this country faces are SYMPTOMS of our loving and giving nature, and forgetfulness about what a PRIVLIDGE it is to call yourself an American citizen. Citizenship should be EARNED, I would argue, even for domestically born individuals; to me it’s that VALUABLE. Yet we hand out this country's resources (insert American tax payer dollars) out to the masses while grumbling about our weakening dollar and 'immigration policy'...



Sorry getting off soap box now,
"Terroristic threat" is only one incident away from being the #1 issue. Remember, all it takes is for one dickhead to walk into an elementary school with C-4 strapped to his back to bring terrorism to the forefront. That could happen at any time.

This election is becoming racial, slowly but surely. If this happens, it is Obama's worst nightmare. There is a reason he is distancing himself from the Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharpton's of the world. The Democratic party is splitting itself down the middle as we speak, and setting themselves up for another defeat this year. The old cliche,"Divide and conquer" comes to mind...

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post #8 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:18 AM
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If one of the issues was Afghanistan, it would have to be talked about. If anything positive was going over there, it would be all over the news. There must be something really wrong with it for NOBODY to even speak it's name.

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post #9 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vertnut
"Terroristic threat" is only one incident away from being the #1 issue. Remember, all it takes is for one dickhead to walk into an elementary school with C-4 strapped to his back to bring terrorism to the forefront. That could happen at any time.

This election is becoming racial, slowly but surely. If this happens, it is Obama's worst nightmare. There is a reason he is distancing himself from the Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharpton's of the world. The Democratic party is splitting itself down the middle as we speak, and setting themselves up for another defeat this year. The old cliche,"Divide and conquer" comes to mind...
I totally agree that a horrid terrorist act could take place any time and any place, and those effected would be devistated. But to take an offensive position out of FEAR in my opinion is dysfunctional in the long run; and that IS the direction our foreign policy has gone. This seems like paranoid wreckless endangerment.

IMO, after 9/11, a more covert and discresionary plan should have been put inplace, rather than planting 1000's of troops in foreign land prepared for CONVENTINAL warfare, where the enemy will not openly engage. I guess our intellegence isn't really worth a damn when it comes to saving soldiers lives. Putting American men and women out on 'patrol' looking for baddies is an accident waiting to happen. How painfully ineffective. Our troops drive around waiting to be slaughtered by booby traps, and that will go on and on and on as long as troops parade around thirsty for conventional warfare.

and McCain will continue our occupation, shit all of them probobly will no matter what they say pre-general election.

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post #10 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut
"Terroristic threat" is only one incident away from being the #1 issue. Remember, all it takes is for one dickhead to walk into an elementary school with C-4 strapped to his back to bring terrorism to the forefront. That could happen at any time.
It's happened, it started years ago, and it will continue to happen. Terrorist acts are not just those that are executed by a suicide bomber, in a crowded place with bombs strapped to their chest.. Here we have not the resources readily available to accomplish that unscrupulous end that is a suicide bombing. We here in the States use guns to get our point across, as they're readily available. Have you not noticed the amount of school shootings skyrocketing lately? How is this not terrorism? Just because a suicide bombing like those that happen in the middle east hasn't taken place here it doesn't mean that terrorism hasn't breached our shores.

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post #11 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:22 PM
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A terrorist act is one carried out to further some political or ostensibly religious agenda. School shootings do not fall into that category.
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post #12 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:25 PM
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If one of the issues was Afghanistan, it would have to be talked about. If anything positive was going over there, it would be all over the news. There must be something really wrong with it for NOBODY to even speak it's name.
I'll agree. The reason we went to the middle east is now purposefully left out the media in order to shove it out of our minds, and the occupation of Iran made it to the forefront--and BinLaden's drinking tea with Musharraf and hiding out in the mountains living out his years in comfort and style. The world's most powerful military can't find a single person--the most wanted man in the world, who supposedly orchestrated the most horrific act of terrorism in human history? And then they just give up!!?? I think not... It's a sad sad day when wars are fought for economic self-interest, and human lives hang in the balance.

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post #13 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PWTRTXSS
If one of the issues was Afghanistan, it would have to be talked about. If anything positive was going over there, it would be all over the news. There must be something really wrong with it for NOBODY to even speak it's name.

Nope, I've gotta disagree.

If anything were really going wrong over there, it would be all over the news... progress and forward development don't sell papers, this is strictly a case of "no news is good news".

Issues for me this time are:

National Security (both at home and abroad)
Energy Independence (this fixes our economy too)
Taxes

I don't give a rat's ass about Same Sex Marriage or Abortion, those are issues that should be resolved by the parties involved... not some power hungry politician.

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post #14 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
A terrorist act is one carried out to further some political or ostensibly religious agenda. School shootings do not fall into that category.
Why not?

I'll disagree.

Maybe I could clarify with an internationally accepted definition of the word. Oh yea, that's right there isn't one. Heres what dictionary.com gave me
----the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

Ok, so school shooting are just all about killing people then? If that is true, then school shootings lack the simple motives behind the suicide bombers (politics,religion). What then motivates these school shooters? What is it then that drives these people to kill and then take their own lives? In my opinion, whatever the motivation behind the act, if it is harmful to others in such a way that it akes their lives, it is terrorism--regardless of the motivation. And school shootings most obviously fall into that category...

Furthermore, it seems tough to acquire or illuminate the perspective of those who commit such heinous acts, as they've already passed away--and any interpretation of the message they were trying to send is thereby arbitrary and an insufficient means of evaluating their viewpoints. So that then begs the question--How do we know what they're thinking when they blow themselves up? I'm sure every one of those assholes isn't thinking the same thing two seconds before they explode...

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post #15 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:54 PM
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Bombing a recruiting station is classic terrorism.
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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:55 PM
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IMO you won't see full on terrorist attacks against a school in this country. It is because terrorism evokes a political response. We all know that even the most bleeding heart liberal won't tolerate an attack on children. The military action taken in response to such an attack would be absolutely savage.
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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:58 PM
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School shootings are usually rooted in some personal grudge between a small cadre of individuals, with the perpetrator carrying out their "justice" by their own volition. Contrast that with a "terrorist", who is often recruited by others to do their dirty work by proxy.
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post #18 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:00 PM
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Bombing a recruiting station is classic terrorism.
and abortion clinics...

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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:06 PM
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and abortion clinics...
That fits, given that the individual who does the deed may try to justify his acts on the grounds of religious beliefs. However, it also doesn't fit since the individual who does the deed is most often a loner who has no organized backing.l
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post #20 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:17 PM
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IMO you won't see full on terrorist attacks against a school in this country. It is because terrorism evokes a political response. We all know that even the most bleeding heart liberal won't tolerate an attack on children. The military action taken in response to such an attack would be absolutely savage.

I wouldnt put it past the ELF to do something crazy.
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post #21 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:20 PM
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That fits, given that the individual who does the deed may try to justify his acts on the grounds of religious beliefs. However, it also doesn't fit since the individual who does the deed is most often a loner who has no organized backing.l
Touche! "No organized backing" is the term that makes the difference. A guy with a 9mm going into a college is not the same as an organized faction of nuts making political/religious statements.

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post #22 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P
IMO you won't see full on terrorist attacks against a school in this country. It is because terrorism evokes a political response. We all know that even the most bleeding heart liberal won't tolerate an attack on children. The military action taken in response to such an attack would be absolutely savage.
Not all terrorism evokes political response, though, sir. Terrorism is too broad a term to specify which violent acts against citizens qualify under the blanket of the classification. Maybe I'm just not quite clear on what you mean by political response. There's clearly something else that is there that evokes this political response you speak of, though, and I'm not quite sure yet exactly what it is--maybe you could help. It would seem to follow that there are two, if not more, types of terrorism.

So the military would respond accordingly to an attack on which the perpetrator is already dead? What're they gonna blow the guys house up, or kill his family?? I don't get what you're saying. Granted a large scale attack like some of the state-sponsored ones that have been happening recently is a lot less likely to happen here because like I said before, we lack the means to that end. If any other major attack will happen here, it will be with a 'dirty bomb' and it will most likely be blamed on the Iranians--regardless of who did it, followed by a squashing of contrary evidence. But that's just an opinion--take it as you will.

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post #23 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:21 PM
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It's happened, it started years ago, and it will continue to happen. Terrorist acts are not just those that are executed by a suicide bomber, in a crowded place with bombs strapped to their chest.. Here we have not the resources readily available to accomplish that unscrupulous end that is a suicide bombing. We here in the States use guns to get our point across, as they're readily available. Have you not noticed the amount of school shootings skyrocketing lately? How is this not terrorism? Just because a suicide bombing like those that happen in the middle east hasn't taken place here it doesn't mean that terrorism hasn't breached our shores.
It's not terrorism. You almost trivialize true terrorism when you compare the two...like it's the "norm". Maybe in your homeland, but not here...

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post #24 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
School shootings are usually rooted in some personal grudge between a small cadre of individuals, with the perpetrator carrying out their "justice" by their own volition. Contrast that with a "terrorist", who is often recruited by others to do their dirty work by proxy.
I see that line you're drawing, and it a good one. But the distinction you're drawing is between to different things that are in effect the same thing. Just different kinds.

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post #25 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:26 PM
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Touche! "No organized backing" is the term that makes the difference. A guy with a 9mm going into a college is not the same as an organized faction of nuts making political/religious statements.
Exactly.

It seems to follow again, that organized backing is what the government is against, whereas if some guy just offs a few dozen students before turning the barrel in his own direction is but a mere lapse in judgment or a mental health case gone awry. Nonetheless, monetarily backed or not, religious, political or not--it's all terrorism--just different kinds/severities of terrorism.

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post #26 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:32 PM
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It's not terrorism. You almost trivialize true terrorism when you compare the two...like it's the "norm". Maybe in your homeland, but not here...
Hi, my names Armand, I was born here and I'm an American citizen. Thanks.

What is 'true' terrorism? How do I trivialize it?

You just made the distinction, or at least you helped me to make it.

What's the difference between 'true terrorism' and 'false terrorism'

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post #27 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:43 PM
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and abortion clinics...
Terrorism sure, but classic in the sense of anti-government forces targeting a symbol of federal power no.

The basic goal of classical terrorism is to cause government reaction which instills distrust by the populace.
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post #28 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:44 PM
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That fits, given that the individual who does the deed may try to justify his acts on the grounds of religious beliefs. However, it also doesn't fit since the individual who does the deed is most often a loner who has no organized backing.l
Religious beliefs are a non-sequitor. They may or may not factor in at the root. The first terrorist bombing I ever witnessed was by communists.
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post #29 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AL P
IMO you won't see full on terrorist attacks against a school in this country. It is because terrorism evokes a political response. We all know that even the most bleeding heart liberal won't tolerate an attack on children. The military action taken in response to such an attack would be absolutely savage.
Providing there is a suitable target in the open. If not, you the 'Iraq AND Afganistan' situation.

I wonder how American's would react if a 'presumably US based' extremist group bombed a large Chinese public building. Would we openly allow an offensive rooting out of the bad guys by the Chinese military on American soil, along with a prolonged occupation and sustained Chinese presence in the US...

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post #30 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:57 PM
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Terrorism sure, but classic in the sense of anti-government forces targeting a symbol of federal power no.

The basic goal of classical terrorism is to cause government reaction which instills distrust by the populace.
I'll agree, good point. But what of it when there is one single person behind the act? I would argue that a considerable percentage of those terrorist acts lumped in under the classical terrorism moniker, especially those who are committing such acts abroad, are merely the individual's own way of advancing their own agenda--or separate from an organized monetary backing. Our assumptions lead us to assume the opposite, and the media does not help this. There seems to be to be a great deal of stereotyping and aesthetic profiling associated with terrorism, especially when you throw politics and religion into the mix.

I'm trying to uncover the physiological, psychological reasons behind these peoples' actions, as well as the influence their environment, peers, and social pressures have on the actions these people to push them to do such horrible things. I think i feel very strongly about many things, but none of them strong enough to walk into a crown and blow myself up. There is clearly a large gaping hold in their reasoning somewhere along the line, and I feel like it goes without saying that we should look deeper into the reasons these people justify their actions internally.

Furthermore, in this case--hindsight is nearly always absent in cases of terrorism, as the attacker is no longer available for questioning... So we are led to assume that we know why they did this--keep that in mind.

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post #31 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:00 PM
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Religious beliefs are a non-sequitor.
Brilliant.

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post #32 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:04 PM
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The only issue for me is how I can make money off all the issues.

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post #33 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:14 PM
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The only issue for me is how I can make money off all the issues.
You should be president...

They'd like you.

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post #34 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Zarathustra
You should be president...

They'd like you.
Sorry I take advantage of the situations. I don't create them I just take advantage of them.

I mean, if I'm in Vegas and presented pocket aces should I fold because I'm a good guy?

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post #35 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
I'll agree, good point. But what of it when there is one single person behind the act? I would argue that a considerable percentage of those terrorist acts lumped in under the classical terrorism moniker, especially those who are committing such acts abroad, are merely the individual's own way of advancing their own agenda--or separate from an organized monetary backing. Our assumptions lead us to assume the opposite, and the media does not help this. There seems to be to be a great deal of stereotyping and aesthetic profiling associated with terrorism, especially when you throw politics and religion into the mix.

I'm trying to uncover the physiological, psychological reasons behind these peoples' actions, as well as the influence their environment, peers, and social pressures have on the actions these people to push them to do such horrible things. I think i feel very strongly about many things, but none of them strong enough to walk into a crown and blow myself up. There is clearly a large gaping hold in their reasoning somewhere along the line, and I feel like it goes without saying that we should look deeper into the reasons these people justify their actions internally.

Furthermore, in this case--hindsight is nearly always absent in cases of terrorism, as the attacker is no longer available for questioning... So we are led to assume that we know why they did this--keep that in mind.
I'm with you, except LOL at a physiological reason.

I don't think it takes more than one person to fulfill an agenda, so unless you can categorize something as just random douchebaggery, it pretty much applies.

As opposed to some poor schmuck getting nailed for some bullshit act that only technically qualifies under the law, but that is the goal of terrorists; make the government assume everyone is a terrorist, so no one trusts them.
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post #36 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Sorry I take advantage of the situations. I don't create them I just take advantage of them.

I mean, if I'm in Vegas and presented pocket aces should I fold because I'm a good guy?
Only if you see me sweating over a 6 high...
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post #37 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Sorry I take advantage of the situations. I don't create them I just take advantage of them.

I mean, if I'm in Vegas and presented pocket aces should I fold because I'm a good guy?
Absolutely not, you would be gambling. Good analogy.

What I meant is, you give someone business-minded like yourself and you throw power in his lap, there's bound to be corruption coming out of his ears in the first year of his reign. Money=greed=selfishness=tyranny=the last eight years. Spoken loosely.

BUT--having said that--I don't disagree with you, I too, am profit-minded in many senses and I'd damn sure be willing and anxious to pick your brain on a number of topics. You're a gem, sir. This shall not be overlooked.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
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post #38 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
I'm with you, except LOL at a physiological reason.

I don't think it takes more than one person to fulfill an agenda, so unless you can categorize something as just random douchebaggery, it pretty much applies.

As opposed to some poor schmuck getting nailed for some bullshit act that only technically qualifies under the law, but that is the goal of terrorists; make the government assume everyone is a terrorist, so no one trusts them.
GOOD point.

And I meant physiologically in a wider scale, as in a culture or society where all the moving parts converge on the individual in some way or another. Physical boundaries, social doctrines and conventions, and extrinsic forces that drive them to conform.

This can also be taken from an individual physiological perspective as far as thought processes and patterns, chemical balances/imbalances, intrinsic values and reasoning behing their actions. I guess that can be taken a few ways...

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
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post #39 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:32 PM
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Okay, from a brain chemistry point of view, I guess that figures in.
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post #40 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
Okay, from a brain chemistry point of view, I guess that figures in.
This day in age, it's absolutely imperative to do so. This can all be defined in terms of feelings and emotions at the base of the base of this issue. These feelings and emotions constitute a large part of our daily lives, and consequently, by virtue of their inclusion in the species Homo Sapien, our Arab counterparts or those that wish to bring harm to innocent people to advance ANY agenda---are also subject to these feelings and emotions that we 'sane' people feel. Values and knowledge of all kinds are held and stored in the memory, and a continuing stimulus constantly changes perception, while adhering to this aforementioned value system.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #41 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Religious beliefs are a non-sequitor. They may or may not factor in at the root. The first terrorist bombing I ever witnessed was by communists.
That's the other part of my original post (#11) about the root causes of terrorism....religious or political agendas.
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post #42 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
That's the other part of my original post (#11) about the root causes of terrorism....religious or political agendas.
I would say it is always a political agenda, even if the catalyst is religious The goal is a political one, even if that agenda is based on something as fundamentally religious as forcing the implementation of sharia law. Or terrorizing people into avoiding abortion cklinics. Or vandalizing jewish businesses.
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post #43 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
This day in age, it's absolutely imperative to do so. This can all be defined in terms of feelings and emotions at the base of the base of this issue. These feelings and emotions constitute a large part of our daily lives, and consequently, by virtue of their inclusion in the species Homo Sapien, our Arab counterparts or those that wish to bring harm to innocent people to advance ANY agenda---are also subject to these feelings and emotions that we 'sane' people feel. Values and knowledge of all kinds are held and stored in the memory, and a continuing stimulus constantly changes perception, while adhering to this aforementioned value system.
Can't two people come to the same conclusion for diametrically opposed reasons?
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post #44 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
I would say it is always a political agenda, even if the catalyst is religious The goal is a political one, even if that agenda is based on something as fundamentally religious as forcing the implementation of sharia law. Or terrorizing people into avoiding abortion cklinics. Or vandalizing jewish businesses.
Very, very true.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #45 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 08:10 PM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Can't two people come to the same conclusion for diametrically opposed reasons?
I would say that is possible. Well put.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #46 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Absolutely not, you would be gambling. Good analogy.

What I meant is, you give someone business-minded like yourself and you throw power in his lap, there's bound to be corruption coming out of his ears in the first year of his reign. Money=greed=selfishness=tyranny=the last eight years. Spoken loosely.

BUT--having said that--I don't disagree with you, I too, am profit-minded in many senses and I'd damn sure be willing and anxious to pick your brain on a number of topics. You're a gem, sir. This shall not be overlooked.
Dude, America has always been about money. BTW, I don't gamble.

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post #47 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Dude, America has always been about money. BTW, I don't gamble.
I know this, I know this. But still, not like it has been in this millenium...

A business man saying he doesn't gamble...

Hmm--maybe not Vegas style, but you're a gambler at heart. Business is risk...

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #48 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
I know this, I know this. But still, not like it has been in this millenium...

A business man saying he doesn't gamble...

Hmm--maybe not Vegas style, but you're a gambler at heart. Business is risk...
Business is about calculated risk. Not much different from the poker table.

I play odds, dude. I may lose some and say, "Good hand", because I know, when I die, I'll eventually have the winning hand.

Math fucking rules.

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post #49 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Business is about calculated risk. Not much different from the poker table.

I play odds, dude. I may lose some and say, "Good hand", because I know, when I die, I'll eventually have the winning hand.

Math fucking rules.
In many, many ways it does.

I feel like math, and therefore numbers (however arbitrarily), are the only real source of objective truth anymore. Sad, but true.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #50 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
In many, many ways it does.

I feel like math, and therefore numbers (however arbitrarily), are the only real source of objective truth anymore. Sad, but true.
As my two daughters will tell you... "Daddy says math rules the world..."

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