I voted for Hillary today! - DFWstangs Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
Never settle always excel
 
Pro Trash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas Area, Texas
Posts: 5,268
I voted for Hillary today!

I figure McCain has it all wrapped up and a vote for Hillary is a vote to keep the Democrats fighting for a nomination, I hope. So I voted for Hillary for two reasons, one is she'll lose to McCain should she run. Number two the longer she and Obama fight it out the more resources they waste running against one another while McCain starts to run for President. Hopefully they fight it out until July
Pro Trash is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:31 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
01WhiteCobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Where's my beer?
Posts: 21,924
Then why would you vote for Hillary? Put her in the grave now eventually it will happen. I'm pretty sure after tonight (although it happened before tonight) that they'll finally admit they have no mathematical odds to win.

Obama actually has a chance in November.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
01WhiteCobra is offline  
post #3 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
Never settle always excel
 
Pro Trash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas Area, Texas
Posts: 5,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Then why would you vote for Hillary? Put her in the grave now eventually it will happen. I'm pretty sure after tonight (although it happened before tonight) that they'll finally admit they have no mathematical odds to win.

Obama actually has a chance in November.
I left out the detail I am not going to vote Dem in November. I am pulling for McCain, does it make sense now?
Pro Trash is offline  
 
post #4 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:48 PM
Aspiring Bean Counter.
 
Slowhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Howard Johnson's Earthlight Room
Posts: 12,279
the seven most daunting words I've heard all day are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Obama actually has a chance in November.

Slowhand is offline  
post #5 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:51 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
this is the smallest violin in the world, and I'm playing it for you

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #6 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
Never settle always excel
 
Pro Trash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas Area, Texas
Posts: 5,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
this is the smallest violin in the world, and I'm playing it for you
Play it for Clinton or Obama, they need musical accompaniment as they both look like trashy modern art master pieces.
Pro Trash is offline  
post #7 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 07:56 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
01WhiteCobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Where's my beer?
Posts: 21,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
I left out the detail I am not going to vote Dem in November. I am pulling for McCain, does it make sense now?
Not one bit. Hillary is done. She has been done for a few weeks now she just keeps hanging on.

The powers that be in DC will decide after Tuesday which horse to hitch their wagon to. This horse will be your new President.

Obama has a really decent shot in November because his election has the potential to shake up the power structure in DC. Only time will tell.

Your original post doesn't make sense because you assume McCain has it all wrapped up. He doesn't by a long shot.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
01WhiteCobra is offline  
post #8 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:05 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Not one bit. Hillary is done. She has been done for a few weeks now she just keeps hanging on.

The powers that be in DC will decide after Tuesday which horse to hitch their wagon to. This horse will be your new President.

Obama has a really decent shot in November because his election has the potential to shake up the power structure in DC. Only time will tell.

Your original post doesn't make sense because you assume McCain has it all wrapped up. He doesn't by a long shot.
The powers that be in D.C. already made that decision, IMO. The only player left in the game that's part of the master plan is Billary. CFR for the win...

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #9 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:09 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
01WhiteCobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Where's my beer?
Posts: 21,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
The powers that be in D.C. already made that decision, IMO. The only player left in the game that's part of the master plan is Billary. CFR for the win...
Not really sure about that. No one that is smart is going to start casting their weight until after tonight. But you may be right.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
01WhiteCobra is offline  
post #10 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:20 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Not really sure about that. No one that is smart is going to start casting their weight until after tonight. But you may be right.
I guess I'm not really either, but the interpretations put in front of me at one time or another led me to believe that this is all just a publicity front. Smoke and mirrors to make us, the citizens, believe we live in a democracy and have some say in who our leader will be over the next term. We do not live in a direct democracy, we are only led to believe as much by casting our superfluous vote. The presidency has already been won by losing the popular vote and 'winning' the electoral college in 2000. This election process, to me, is but an elaborate scam perpetrated by those 'powers that be' behind the visual, public powers that be. Those behind the scenes hard-hitters already made that decision, the president has been chosen, the way I see it. As soon as all the big-wigs who were part of the Illuminati left the race and left only Billary, I knew the decision was made. Nobody else that's still in the race belongs to this corporate-fascist oligarchy that calls the shots behind our 'government'.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #11 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:24 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
01WhiteCobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Where's my beer?
Posts: 21,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Nobody else that's still in the race belongs to this corporate-fascist oligarchy that calls the shots behind our 'government'.
Are you that sure? Or maybe its just a changing of the the guard.

My 401K is now a 400K (was 301K)
01WhiteCobra is offline  
post #12 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:39 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South of the Red River
Posts: 3,332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Nobody else that's still in the race belongs to this corporate-fascist oligarchy that calls the shots behind our 'government'.
Yeah right. I wasted a vote too but I voted for Ron Fuckin Paul just so I can feel better about this charade.

Here's the answer for ya Zara:
"The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand!
black01gt is offline  
post #13 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:55 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Or maybe its just a changing of the the guard.
Exactly!

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #14 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 08:57 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by black01gt
Yeah right. I wasted a vote too but I voted for Ron Fuckin Paul just so I can feel better about this charade.

Here's the answer for ya Zara:
"The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg
I'll agree with that...

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #15 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:00 PM
The Janitor
 
32VfromHell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sacred Heart Hospital
Posts: 16,424
USA polls today showed hillary so far as ahead nationally. So far, she is winning Ohio, RI, losing in Vermont, and she is neck and neck with Obama in Texas so far.

I dont think she is out of it. I would rather have her win the nomination, because i think she will lose the general election in nov.
32VfromHell is offline  
post #16 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:03 PM
Lifer
 
Trip McNeely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 29,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by 32VfromHell
USA polls today showed hillary so far as ahead nationally. So far, she is winning Ohio, RI, losing in Vermont, and she is neck and neck with Obama in Texas so far.

I dont think she is out of it. I would rather have her win the nomination, because i think she will lose the general election in nov.
I think thats the general consensus, but from what I've seen Obamas train is pretty long. Of course that could all lie in the medias portrayal of it all too.

CANADIANS = DOUCHERS

Trip McNeely is offline  
post #17 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:03 PM
dead
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 14,611
id bet mccain looses to either obama or hillary in November
momo stallion is offline  
post #18 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:05 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,194
They're all the fucking same. Shitbag, dick stroking, corrupt, lying motherfucking pieces of shit.
David is offline  
post #19 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:32 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
They're all the fucking same. Shitbag, dick stroking, corrupt, lying motherfucking pieces of shit.
Truism. But, having said that, your Dad took quite a likin' to Obama, didn't he?

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #20 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 10:02 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Truism. But, having said that, your Dad took quite a likin' to Obama, didn't he?
Yeah he did.
David is offline  
post #21 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 10:14 PM
Secular Dogooderist
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Hive
Posts: 3,031
It happens...

Thus Spoke Zarathustra
---
This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
Zarathustra is offline  
post #22 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 10:19 PM
PAN
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under a rock
Posts: 20,154
Funny how we all agree that our input means not a damned thing in the grand scheme of things.


" ...that government for the people, by the people, for the people..."

Sadly, that address is nothing more than an engagement in hypocrisy in the here and now...
Fox466 is offline  
post #23 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 10:47 PM
Painting Your House
 
BlackSnake1996's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denton County, Texas
Posts: 10,734
So whats the chance in getting brother Gov. Bush to run?
BlackSnake1996 is offline  
post #24 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 11:23 PM
Lifer
 
Paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 14,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Then why would you vote for Hillary? Put her in the grave now eventually it will happen. I'm pretty sure after tonight (although it happened before tonight) that they'll finally admit they have no mathematical odds to win.

Obama actually has a chance in November.
Damn, 01WC was wrong (sort of). Maybe he will be wrong about Obama as president!

BTW, she won Ohio and is leading in Texas as we speak, so the mathematical odds for her to win are still very real according to liberal pinheads on MSNBC. BTW, I am hearing from MSNBC that there may be new primaries in the locked out states after Pennsylvania, which will probably give Hillary a chance to receive some lost super delegates. This is far from over and I love it!

If this goes undecided to the convention the Dems will have bloodied each other so badly they will lose, even to McCain.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
Paladin is offline  
post #25 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 11:36 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
...even to McCain.
So, you admit that he's the lesser of them all, but you still want him to win.

You're an idiot in the first degree.
gpamp is offline  
post #26 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 11:38 PM
Lifer
 
Trip McNeely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 29,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
So, you admit that he's the lesser of them all, but you still want him to win.

You're an idiot in the first degree.
If hes an idiot in the first degree, then you are an idiot squared.

CANADIANS = DOUCHERS

Trip McNeely is offline  
post #27 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 11:39 PM
IA2
 
mikeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 22,413
[x] none of the above

with that said, i believe that we'll be saying "president obama" before much longer. He has the charisma deal going on in a major way. Obama standing next to hillary just makes her look like the shrill/old skool bitch that she really is.

While i'm not happy with the idea of obama as president, a part of me hopes that he wins so that the sheeple get what they voted for. A liberal to the left of hillary and all of the things that go along with that. Might make people long for a conservative at some point
mikeb is offline  
post #28 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 04:45 AM
Recovering Lush
 
HookEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw, TX
Posts: 10,011
I voted for Hillary, too. Keep her in the race as long as possible. Force the Dems to spend more money fighting each other, instead of McCain.


And there is that chance that Hillary gets the Dems nomination: She'll get smoked in a general election.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
HookEm is offline  
post #29 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 06:40 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
The best part about Hillary hanging in, is that she, along with the press, is starting to wear on Obama some. The press is starting to probe a little more into his policies and connections to unsavory people, one of whom is under federal indictment as we speak. He may be a media darling right now, but the press will turn on him like sharks in a feeding frenzy if they sense he's ducking their more pointed questions. So let Hillary do all of the dirty work she's so good at, and maybe McCain will come out ahead in November.

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #30 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 06:53 AM
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!
 
Sgt Beavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lake Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,859
Well the bitch managed to win. It doesn't look like she closed the delegate count by much. I think she only narrowed it by about 10 delegates. However she's only 89 behind Obama. That keeps her close enough for a brokered convention.

Keep in mind it doesn't look like either of them is going to win enough delegates to win the thing outright.

Heh, wouldn't be very Clinton like for Hillary to lose the popular vote but still get the nomination...

We're Adopting. Contact us through our website.

http://www.theboyetts.com

You can also LIKE us on Facebook
Sgt Beavis is offline  
post #31 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 06:54 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Then why would you vote for Hillary? Put her in the grave now eventually it will happen. I'm pretty sure after tonight (although it happened before tonight) that they'll finally admit they have no mathematical odds to win.

Obama actually has a chance in November.
Not so fast, there, Big E. It isn't over just yet.
Denny is offline  
post #32 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 07:18 AM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSnake1996
So whats the chance in getting brother Gov. Bush to run?
He's waiting for just the right moment, when they figure out how to rig the new voting machines in Florida.
line-em-up is offline  
post #33 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 07:30 AM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
I think the Bush name is tainted for a while.


Heh... I said taint and bush
Denny is offline  
post #34 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 07:49 AM
Punkslapper
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Harleton, TX
Posts: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
I guess I'm not really either, but the interpretations put in front of me at one time or another led me to believe that this is all just a publicity front. Smoke and mirrors to make us, the citizens, believe we live in a democracy and have some say in who our leader will be over the next term. We do not live in a direct democracy, we are only led to believe as much by casting our superfluous vote. The presidency has already been won by losing the popular vote and 'winning' the electoral college in 2000. This election process, to me, is but an elaborate scam perpetrated by those 'powers that be' behind the visual, public powers that be. Those behind the scenes hard-hitters already made that decision, the president has been chosen, the way I see it. As soon as all the big-wigs who were part of the Illuminati left the race and left only Billary, I knew the decision was made. Nobody else that's still in the race belongs to this corporate-fascist oligarchy that calls the shots behind our 'government'.

The electoral college was created by the founding fathers because they thought the general public was too ignorant to elect a president directly. From the posts I read on DFWstangs, I agree. BTW, 2000 was not the first time it's happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalInjection
It's both.......at 12 degress timming it's a street car, at 19 it's a racecar
BigDumbRedneck is offline  
post #35 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 07:50 AM
reppin tha westside
 
fitzwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: east of a rock, west of a hard place.
Posts: 3,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut
The best part about Hillary hanging in, is that she, along with the press, is starting to wear on Obama some. The press is starting to probe a little more into his policies and connections to unsavory people, one of whom is under federal indictment as we speak. He may be a media darling right now, but the press will turn on him like sharks in a feeding frenzy if they sense he's ducking their more pointed questions. So let Hillary do all of the dirty work she's so good at, and maybe McCain will come out ahead in November.


we have a winner.


Sharks in a frenzy....think about Obama & McCain in a debate forum

------------------------------------------------------------------------
El Duderino.......of the Crown Royal Cruisers




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean88gt View Post
Jester, your posts do the same thing as going to a county fair, you really make people think "Hey, I'm not so fucked up after looking at that guy!"
fitzwell is offline  
post #36 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 08:31 AM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
I think the Bush name is tainted for a while.


Heh... I said taint and bush
You forgot to mention DICK Chaney and COLON Powell in the same sentence.
line-em-up is offline  
post #37 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 09:15 AM
Recovering Lush
 
HookEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw, TX
Posts: 10,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDumbRedneck
The electoral college was created by the founding fathers because they thought the general public was too ignorant to elect a president directly. From the posts I read on DFWstangs, I agree. BTW, 2000 was not the first time it's happened.


Not exactly true. It was put in place to keep candidates from going to a few largely popualted areas and ignoring smaller areas, thus skewing the "will of the nation." Corruption fail safe, basically. Well, ideally. I had to write a 10 page paper or some such with regards to this for a Poli Sci class. I you have some burning desire to read it, I've still got it.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
HookEm is offline  
post #38 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 09:47 AM
Lifer
 
line-em-up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere south of here.
Posts: 5,810
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
Not exactly true. It was put in place to keep candidates from going to a few largely popualted areas and ignoring smaller areas, thus skewing the "will of the nation." Corruption fail safe, basically. Well, ideally. I had to write a 10 page paper or some such with regards to this for a Poli Sci class. I you have some burning desire to read it, I've still got it.
I'd like to read it.
line-em-up is offline  
post #39 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
Never settle always excel
 
Pro Trash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas Area, Texas
Posts: 5,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDumbRedneck
The electoral college was created by the founding fathers because they thought the general public was too ignorant to elect a president directly. From the posts I read on DFWstangs, I agree. BTW, 2000 was not the first time it's happened.

Yes but it is an institution that has outlived it needs, unlike you I don't feel as though our society needs it's democracy limited by a few elitists. Our voting system is a less than ideal institution that has three times made a popular vote loser the President. Safe to say in it's current form it is elitist, it's creation served as a counterbalance against too much democracy and protected the national government from the individual states encroaching on it's federal power. Read Alexander Hamilton by Chernow sometime and see Hamilton’s fears of the Leviathan government that was predicted and is now in place.

There are actually two reasons, number one you are correct, is they did not want anyone to manipulate the citizenry, remember they were worried about tyranny. So yes they were concerned about the ignorance of the general public. You missed the second part though; the other reason was to give extra power to the smaller states. The leading founding father or main advocate of the Electoral College was Alexander Hamilton, he had taken the idea of the Electoral College from his early writings in the Federalist papers.

Lets not forget that during the constitutional convention quite a few compromises were made to satisfy the smaller states. Mainly the one vote per Senate member. With the Electoral College system every state gets a number of electoral votes equal to its total representation in the House and Senate.

George Mason 1787: "The extent of the country renders it impossible, that the people can have the requisite capacity to judge of the respective pretensions of the candidates."
Pro Trash is offline  
post #40 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 11:00 AM
Lifer
 
Paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 14,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpamp
So, you admit that he's the lesser of them all, but you still want him to win.

You're an idiot in the first degree.
LOL, imagine that, you can't comprehend again. If the Dems had someone who had some substance they would probably beat McCain. Try reading the quote to an adult and have them explain it to you sick fuck.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
Paladin is offline  
post #41 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 11:06 AM
Recovering Lush
 
HookEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw, TX
Posts: 10,011
PArdon the lack of formatting...here's an old rough of it.

In Defense of the Electoral College

Every four years, on the Tuesday following the first Monday of November, millions of Americans go to the polls, and cast their vote for the candidate, or in some cases, party, of their choice. Some go thinking that they truly voted for that candidate, that the votes are tallied by counting each individual vote. Others go with some knowledge of the inner workings of our Electoral College system. This system was established by Article II, section 1 of the U. S. Constitution, and was further clarified by the Twelfth Amendment. There has been much gnashing of teeth by some over this system, a few proposals to change it, but to date, there is not a better-proposed system for the election of the President of the United States.

The College itself was established by our founding fathers, to serve as a compromise between the Antifederalist desire to have a purely popular election, and some Federalists who desired that our Congress select the President. Both absolutes have major drawbacks, and a compromise was seen as the best solution, as compromise oft is. The College itself is composed of a member for each member of the House of Representatives, one for each Senator, and, because of the Twenty-third Amendment, three for the District of Columbia. State laws generally handle the appointment of the actual electors. In many cases, these are appointed positions. Though in many elections the question of “Renegade electors” is brought up, it has happened less than a handful of times. These electors are generally older, life long party faithful, and it is considered an honor bestowed upon them. Besides, even if they were to “cross over,” it is not as if the party they crossed to would view them as trustworthy. In any case, there is a slate of electors for each party’s candidate. If a state is “won,” by popular vote, a Statement of Ascertainment is prepared, and those electors are called upon to actually vote for their candidate. (Two states, Maine and Nebraska, do allow a split slate of electors to be chosen.) If there is not a majority of electoral votes won, the Twelfth Amendment cedes the election to the House of Representatives. It is wise to keep in mind, however, that while the likelihood of an elector crossing over, or even a group, is minutely small, it is possible, as there are no federal laws mandating electors vote as the popular vote dictates. In our latest election, a grass-roots organization called “Citizens for True Democracy” urged electors to ignore the state level popular vote, and to vote along the lines of the counted popular vote:

Dear Elector,
As one of 538 members of the Electoral College, you will help to determine the future of American democracy. If the Electoral College contradicts the nation's popular vote, American democracy will face a serious legitimacy crisis. You have the power to help our nation avert this crisis. I understand that you are committed to support George W. Bush, but before doing so, you should weigh America's national interest. Your state, unlike many others, does not legally require you to vote for your party's candidate. To the best of my knowledge, you will face no penalties whatsoever if you decide to vote with America. Patriotism should come before partisanship. I trust that you will make the responsible choice (Enrich).
While no electors changed their votes, this would have made for a fascinating turn of events.

Alexander Hamilton was the author of Federalist Number 68, a piece whose sole purpose was to defend the use of the Electoral College. In it, he touched on several points. Many people wonder what precisely was behind the creation of the Electoral College. Hamilton sums it up best: “Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption.” (Hamilton). At this point in our young nation’s history, there was still a large fear of corruption, and rightfully so after their experience with King George and his minions. They were very clear in their fear of foreign interests playing any role in a U. S. election. He was also clear in his desire not to allow people to elect themselves: “No senator, representative, or other person holding a place of trust or profit under the United States can be of the number of electors” (Hamilton). The Electoral College also defends us against “Cultist Mentality.” That is to say, one cannot simply “pick” a region of the United States, and campaign the hardest their, no matter the cause. The Federalists wanted a “Renaissance Man” of sorts, one who appealed to the nation as a whole. Cleveland attempted to steal the election in this manner in the election of 1888, by racking up high vote tallies in the South. However, with the safety net of the Electoral College in place, his efforts were thwarted. “Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union” (Hamilton). There was also a slight concern for violence against the electors, as well as a concern for regional mischief. To combat this, electors were spread out, and acts of violence would be unlikely, as they would be putting forth the wants and desires of that elector’s home region. Imagine the potential peril if all the electors were to meet in a pro-slavery state, and they cast their votes to an anti-slavery candidate. This is merely a theoretical situation, as at the time there was no real anti-slavery moment, but their farsightedness to matters that did not exist before them is truly impressive. The Antifederalist did have some qualms with this system. However. One of their chief concerns, cited in Antifederalist No. 72, was that electors would essentially be voting for someone they did not know. Article II, section 1 of the Constitution outlines that the President and Vice-President must not be from the same state. Basically, since travel was a luxury, and some times an impracticality, voting for two candidates, one whom did not reside in the same state, put the electors in a position of “voting for two, one or both of whom they know nothing about” (Republicus). The Antifederalists were very untrustworthy of the process, and saw plenty of room for Congressional shenanigans. They seemed to embrace fully the axiom, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely,” though their fears were somewhat misplaced, as there was no “Absolute power” in this venture. They did go as far as to decry the Federalist movement as depriving them of legitimate government, and creating a system of slavery, with those in charge being the slave masters (Republicus). As in most cases, the Federalists and Antifederalists were on far different pages. Fortunately, in this case, the well thought out plan that the Federalists devised, came to fruition. It did allow people to vote directly, while putting in a system of balance to stop any regional mischievous acts from determining the Presidency.

Though it would shock people today, the popular vote was a tally that was not even kept until the election of 1824. This was the point where it became chic to decry the use of the Electoral College. Andrew Jackson claimed that he had been somehow cheated, because he had won the popular vote, yet lost the election. Small problem with that claim: only six states even recorded the popular vote at that point. Why only six? To put it simply, the popular vote did not matter, one way or the other. The rules of the game were to take the majority of the electoral votes. Popular votes were not at all relevant to the matter at hand. Jackson invented the theory of “popular will,” when he claimed that the House had “thwarted the will of the people.” He would later be lauded by historians for the creation of “Jacksonian Democracy,” but I fail to see any positives in conducting a campaign in this manner. As we move to the next “Constitutional Crisis,” we find the naysayers of the Electoral College focusing on a claim that the election of 1876 proved that the Electoral College could produce bizarre numbers. This is not at all the case. Hayes won the election of 1876 by using a “small-state strategy.” That is to say, he exploited a “weakness” of the small state in the Electoral College. That weakness is, picking up a small amount of voters in a small state, will give you enough votes to win the state, and pick up the electoral votes. Hayes carried all small states, with the exception of Delaware. By concentrating on the smaller states, he surrendered several larger, more populous areas, and may have lost the “popular vote” by close to 250,000 votes. The 250,000 votes are not relevant to the electoral process at all. What is relevant is that he won the electoral vote, all be it by merely one vote. He did, never the less, play by the rules we lay down, and therefore, deserved to win. Finally, in 1888, we had Grover Cleveland, who again won the popular vote, but lost the electoral vote. Cleveland was one of the men that Hamilton wrote Federalist No. 68 in reference to, it seems. He won a huge proportion of the Southern votes, by campaigning on a message geared toward Southerners: tariff reduction. Doing this however, was not conducive to a winning Presidential strategy. Ideally, one campaigns to the fringes in a primary, but in a Presidential election, moderate views are pushed. Tariffs were a Republican hot spot at that point in time, and when Cleveland moved to do away with them all together, he ostracized himself from Republican support. He had a solid base of Republican support in 1884, but when he did this, he essentially drove them away, hoping the South would be enough to carry him. Unfortunately for him, our founding fathers in their infinite wisdom saw past this kind of nonsense, and were far sighted enough to even address this particular issue in the federalist papers. Harrison did not “steal the election,” by any means. A more truthful assessment of this political blunder is that Cleveland snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Now, the question is, how does all this relate to today’s Electoral College. Quite simply, it still works in the manner it was meant. If we analyze Election 2000, we see the Electoral College working exactly as it should. For starters, we have to keep in mind that the popular vote was an irrelevant number, which was brought into play by a losing candidate in 1824. Nowhere does the Constitution, or the 12th amendment, or the United States Code reference “popular vote” as a prerequisite for winning an election. Therefore, as we reside in Texas, it was quite clear that Mr. Bush would carry our state. Many people do see this as a reason not to vote, as the state’s electoral votes are not in question. The same can be said for California, a state that was heavily carried by Democrats. So, it is impossible to determine what percent of people, if we had all voted, would have voted for Mr. Gore, or President Bush. Moreover, there is no reason to determine it, because it is simply not part of the equation. What matters is this: Bush took 271 electoral votes, and Gore took 267. A majority, as set forth by our founding fathers, was taken, and a winner was therefore declared. Now, if we analyze the county-by-county breakdown, we do see an interesting trend occurring: The fear of Mr. Hamilton was once again addressed.
In a statistical analysis of square miles of counties won, population of counties won, and the growth of said counties won we get the following data: Gore won 575,184 square miles of counties to Bush’s 2,432,456; Gore’s won counties population totaled 127, 000, 000 while Bush’s total was 143,000,000; The growth of these county’s won, was Gore, at 5% to Bush, at 14%. The most telling statistic? Gore won 676 counties. Bush, in 2,436. The Federalists nailed it (Overberg). Many of us saw the telltale map during the election. “Vast stretches of red across the rural heartland, all Republican George W. Bush country. A coastal perimeter and urban patches of blue, where Democrat Al Gore prevailed (Lawrence). Yes, Gore did receive more tallied popular votes than Bush. However, this is akin to watching a football game and attempting to declare the winner the person who got the most passing first downs. The only thing that matters is the final score, and Bush’s campaign did best Gore’s campaign by four. The process, once again, survived a “Constitutional Crisis.” Naturally, there are detractors to the above data. Not that they do not believe the numbers, per se, but that they believe the numbers were arrived at by a fraudulent disenfranchisement of particular voting classes. (Sekler & Perez, 2003)

Now, knowing that some feel slighted by not truly voting for the President, there is an Electoral College reformatory movement out there, with many options. Option one, of course, is status quo. I believe if it is not broke, we have no business breaking it ourselves by throwing a new system in place. We have a proven winner, why create potential chaos?

In 1977, there was a proposed Constitutional Amendment for direct election of the President. It had strong support from the American Bar Association, League of Women Voters, Common Cause, Chamber of Commerce of the United States, and the AFL-CIO. The proposed amendment was introduced to the Senate, and failed to make get the required two-third’s vote to move toward passage (Avagara). There is also a movement for proportional allocation of electoral votes. This is being pushed strong by a grass roots group called “Reform America,” And incorporates aspects of the electoral vote, as well as the direct vote.

The final Florida tally was very near a 50-50 split between Gore and Bush, but Bush still took all 25 electoral votes. Why can't we allocate the electoral votes proportionally in each state? This would have given in Florida 13 votes to Bush and 12 to Gore. In your home state of Pennsylvania Gore would have won 12 and Bush 11. This is a much fairer way of ensuring that every voter casts a ballot that counts for something. Under the current system in Pennsylvania, voters that cast their ballot for Bush might as well ought to have stayed home, because Gore got all 23 Electoral College votes. Under this system, also voters would always have incentive to get to the polls, even if the media are reporting that their candidate is losing the state. Every vote counts using this method (Breyer)!
This amiable solution might satisfy those of us that still share the Federalist’s views, with the growing number that support the Antifederalist’s views. Unfortunately, as Mr. George Bauman, Former Dallas Area GOP President stated, “All the rules and all the regulations will not change the fact that inside of some people, there is a genuine will to deceive and circumvent the rules of engagement, so to say, that are in place. The system in place isn’t perfect, or ideal, but it seems to get the job done” (Bauman).
There are of course, a dozen more ideas being considered out there, but as I stated previously, I believe there is nothing that can replace what we have. To think that our current system has only had four “contested” elections since its inception is nothing short of miraculous. It screams volumes as to the farsightedness of our forefathers. We have seen the system challenged, but generally, it is not challenged by the rules in place, but by the rules that someone thinks should be in place. Strangely enough, these challenges all come from losing candidates. It is a system that is looked upon worldwide as the be all end all in election processes. It has a built in system of checks and balances, to weed out corruption. Granted, dead people still vote in South Texas, and sometimes they rise up in the streets of Chicago and hit the polls, but this is not the norm. We cannot possibly have planned for every single “What if,” and we do not have much of a choice, in that aspect. To guard against voter fraud completely, would mean taking the popular vote totally away, and that is not an amicable solution. We must accept that the current system may have a flaw or two, but until it fails, and until someone has the ingenuity to create a replacement system that is amicable to all, it is the system in place, and it should stay in place, as is.

Works Cited

Antifederalist #72, Republicus
Bauman, Leo. Personal Interview. 15 Nov 2003.
Breyer, Thomas. Reform America, Inc. 2001.
http://www.reformamericainc.org/edit...onfalacy.shtml

Enrich, David. Vote with America. Citizens for True Democracy. 1998-2000.
http://www.geocities.com/dave_enrich/ctd/vwa.html.

Federalist #68, Hamilton

Lawrence, Jill. “Country vs. city, spelled in red, blue.” USA Today 11 November 2000.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/pres08.htm

Perez, Richard Rar and Sekler, Joan. (Directors). (2003). Unprecedented. [DVD]. United
States: Sony Music Video.

“Proposed constitutional amendment for direct election of the US President. Avagara.
http://www.avagara.com/e_c/reference/00012501.htm

The Associated Press, ERSI Inc, USA Today analysis by Paul Overberg.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
HookEm is offline  
post #42 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 11:41 AM
T-MINUS
 
Sean88gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 28,540
I thought about it, but couldn't do it. I'd have felt like I needed a rape shower after voting.

1/19/09, the last day of Free America.
Pericles "Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. "

"[T]he people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government and to reform, alter, or totally change the same when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." --Samuel Adams


Sean88gt is offline  
post #43 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,194
So everyone wants the Democrats to keep fighting with each other. What happens when one gets nominated? What smear campaign is McCain gonna run that no one hasnt already heard?
David is offline  
post #44 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:12 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,194
David is offline  
post #45 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:15 PM
Recovering Lush
 
HookEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw, TX
Posts: 10,011
All McCain has to do is stay the path. People are tired of hard left and hard right, for now. He's a moderate that leans right, with military experience, and a decent speaker. His wife has a background in Education (special ed, specifically) so that'll help with the teacher vote.

He doesn't need to go dirty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
So everyone wants the Democrats to keep fighting with each other. What happens when one gets nominated? What smear campaign is McCain gonna run that no one hasnt already heard?

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
HookEm is offline  
post #46 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:17 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by HookEm
All McCain has to do is stay the path. People are tired of hard left and hard right, for now. He's a moderate that leans right, with military experience, and a decent speaker. His wife has a background in Education (special ed, specifically) so that'll help with the teacher vote.

He doesn't need to go dirty.
Make sense.

I dont understand a lot of politics. I do know I hate politicians, all of them.
David is offline  
post #47 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:43 PM
Lifer
 
Paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 14,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
So everyone wants the Democrats to keep fighting with each other. What happens when one gets nominated? What smear campaign is McCain gonna run that no one hasnt already heard?
McCain has been reaching out the the extreme of the Democratic party since 2000 or so at least. He has said he will not run a smear campaign and I believe him, which is why this will work out well for Republicans. The Dems will beat each other up so badly that someone like McCain may not be all that bad.

McCain is a very weak Republican candidate IMO (he has reached out to extreme liberals and treated them like they were equals for example), so this major battle brewing between the Dems may be what gets him elected. It wouldn't be the first time the Dems imploded and gave the election to the Republicans.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
Paladin is offline  
post #48 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:49 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ellis County
Posts: 18,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
McCain has been reaching out the the extreme of the Democratic party since 2000 or so at least. He has said he will not run a smear campaign and I believe him, which is why this will work out well for Republicans. The Dems will beat each other up so badly that someone like McCain may not be all that bad.

McCain is a very weak Republican candidate IMO (he has reached out to extreme liberals and treated them like they were equals for example), so this major battle brewing between the Dems may be what gets him elected. It wouldn't be the first time the Dems imploded and gave the election to the Republicans.
Like the last two elections? Gore was HANDED the Presidency, and totally fucked it. He follows the most popular dickhead in history, and can't close the deal. Last time, the Dems trot out the "Two John's", and get the same result. Obama and Hillary are worse than the last two...

CHL holder and Conservative...AKA "Domestic Terrorist"
Vertnut is offline  
post #49 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:56 PM
Lifer
 
Paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 14,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut
Like the last two elections? Gore was HANDED the Presidency, and totally fucked it. He follows the most popular dickhead in history, and can't close the deal. Last time, the Dems trot out the "Two John's", and get the same result. Obama and Hillary are worse than the last two...
Don't forget Dean's wild ass indian yell that derailed his candidacy, but yeah, exactly right.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
Paladin is offline  
post #50 of 264 (permalink) Old 03-05-2008, 12:58 PM
Out
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 41,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Don't forget Dean's wild ass indian yell that derailed his candidacy, but yeah, exactly right.
I still shake my head in disbelief, to this day!
Denny is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome