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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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The treasonous ACLU did it again

By SARAH KARUSH, Associated Press Writer
13 minutes ago


DETROIT - A federal judge ruled Thursday that the government's warrantless wiretapping program is unconstitutional and ordered an immediate halt to it.

U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor in Detroit became the first judge to strike down the National Security Agency's program, which she says violates the rights to free speech and privacy as well as the separation of powers enshrined in the Constitution.

"Plaintiffs have prevailed, and the public interest is clear, in this matter. It is the upholding of our Constitution," Taylor wrote in her 43-page opinion.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed the lawsuit on behalf of journalists, scholars and lawyers who say the program has made it difficult for them to do their jobs. They believe many of their overseas contacts are likely targets of the program, which involves wiretapping conversations between people in the U.S. and people in other countries.

The government argued that the program is well within the president's authority, but said proving that would require revealing state secrets.

The ACLU said the state-secrets argument was irrelevant because the Bush administration already had publicly revealed enough information about the program for Taylor to rule.

"At its core, today's ruling addresses the abuse of presidential power and reaffirms the system of checks and balances that's necessary to our democracy," ACLU executive director Anthony Romero told reporters after the ruling.

He called the opinion "another nail in the coffin in the Bush administration's legal strategy in the war on terror."

The NSA had no immediate comment on the ruling.

While siding with the ACLU on the wiretapping issue, Taylor dismissed a separate claim by the group over NSA data-mining of phone records. She said not enough had been publicly revealed about that program to support the claim and further litigation would jeopardize state secrets.

The lawsuit alleged that the NSA "uses artificial intelligence aids to search for keywords and analyze patterns in millions of communications at any given time." Multiple lawsuits have been filed related to data-mining against phone companies, accusing them of improperly turning over records to the NSA.

However, the data-mining was only a small part of the Detroit suit, said Ann Beeson, the ACLU's associate legal director and the lead attorney on the case.

Beeson predicted the government would appeal the wiretapping ruling and request that the order to halt the program be postponed while the case makes its way through the system. She said the ACLU had not yet decided whether it would oppose such a postponement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060817/...s_surveillance

Maybe the ACLU missed the big story last week, but those terrorist were caught largely BECAUSE of the wiretapping

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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 01:22 PM
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Bovine defication!!!!
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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Bovine defication!!!!
I like that lol

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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 03:56 PM
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When a President is sworn in, he vows to uphold & protect the Constitution. So ain't it a bitch that "W" is required to follow rules he swore to follow.

If some section of the Constitution is obsolete, there is a process for Congress to amend(change) the Constitution. Bush has had 5 years to do this, but nothing has ever been submitted for an amendment.

That's the beauty of our Constitution, it's a living document that can change with the times.

But Bush has chosen to ignore his sworn vow to uphold & protect the Consitution, and break the law.

Scott
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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 04:21 PM
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[QUOTE=That's the beauty of our Constitution, it's a living document that can change with the times.

But Bush has chosen to ignore his sworn vow to uphold & protect the Consitution, and break the law.

Scott[/QUOTE]

that's what appeals are for, "The case is expected to be appealed and may even reach the US Supreme Court. "

There's a lot of history to the NSA and what's legal.

UPDATE 15:20:32 EDT: It is being reported that Judge Taylor's decision may not be on solid legal ground. One of the requirements for the plaintiffs in the case was to "show actual harm" inflicted by the NSA program. This is said not to include any "potential" harm. No actual harm was presented to the judge by the plaintiffs in the case.

Some legal scholars are saying that Judge Taylor implemented her personal ideology, as opposed to a sound legal decision, with her ruling.

The NSA surveillance program is said to have been part and parcel to foiling the recent UK terrorist plot that would have exploded 10 commercial airliners while they were in-flight.

But even if Taylor harpoons the spying program, experts said, the decision likely would be overturned by the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals.

"Given the composition of the 6th Circuit and its previous rulings in related areas, it seems more likely to favor national security over civil liberties if that issue is squarely presented," said Carl Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond in Virginia. "And that's what this case is all about."
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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 04:29 PM
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Some legal scholars are saying that Judge Taylor implemented her personal ideology, as opposed to a sound legal decision, with her ruling.
What a surprise? A justice not following the guide lines in the constitution to interpret the law, not legislate.
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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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But Bush has chosen to ignore his sworn vow to uphold & protect the Consitution, and break the law.
as the article says, the NSA supposedly broke freedom of speech laws and infringed on peoples rights, give me a break, which freedom of speech laws might we be talking about? Nobodies verbal rights have been revoked or infringed upon, if the NSA is wiretapping, that's probably because you have something that they are interested in, it's not like the NSA is going to harass somebody for no reason. By the tone of your response, it sounds like you are against the wiretapping that took place to help capture the terrorists last week because it somehow violates our constitutional rights, that only strangles our abilities to get info from the terrorist and that makes it a lot harder to fight against them, you ought to know that.

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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 07:59 PM
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how the hell is anyone going to know if they stop... if you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't care...

if the people they are trying to contact are targets of the listening, they should consider themselves to be Patriots... they are helping the US Government find and destroy the people that want to destroy this country... oh wait, they dont give a shit about this country...
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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 08:15 PM
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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 08:19 PM
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no shit everyone should be granted the rights of an American... no matter if they earned it or not... very nice!
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-17-2006, 10:49 PM
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The ACLU needs to STFU.
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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by White trash wagon
When a President is sworn in, he vows to uphold & protect the Constitution. So ain't it a bitch that "W" is required to follow rules he swore to follow.

If some section of the Constitution is obsolete, there is a process for Congress to amend(change) the Constitution. Bush has had 5 years to do this, but nothing has ever been submitted for an amendment.

That's the beauty of our Constitution, it's a living document that can change with the times.

But Bush has chosen to ignore his sworn vow to uphold & protect the Consitution, and break the law.

Scott
There has been a provision for the government to wiretap phone calls in which one of the parties is not on American soil. Every President has done it since 1973, ac cording to one "scholar" I saw last night on CNN. Take off your Bush hating goggles dude.

This judge took her personal bias and put it into a ruling. Imagine someone doing that, maybe a liberal?

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post #13 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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lol

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post #14 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 90 Notch
There has been a provision for the government to wiretap phone calls in which one of the parties is not on American soil. Every President has done it since 1973, ac cording to one "scholar" I saw last night on CNN. Take off your Bush hating goggles dude.

This judge took her personal bias and put it into a ruling. Imagine someone doing that, maybe a liberal?
and thats the problem, judges are making more and more rulings based on political parties... Instead of doing whats best for the country, everyone wants to impose their will on everyone else, no matter the consequences...
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post #15 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 10:56 AM
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George Washington once stated in 1787

" The power under the Constitution will always be in the people. It is entrusted for certain defined purposes, and for a certain limited period, to representatives of their own choosing; and whenever it is executed contrary to their interest, or not agreeable to their wishes, their servants can, and undoubtedly will, be recalled."

I looked on the Gallup poll website this morning and Presidents Bush's approval rating is 37% and has only risen 6% since it was at it's lowest in May of this year.
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post #16 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
George Washington once stated in 1787

" The power under the Constitution will always be in the people. It is entrusted for certain defined purposes, and for a certain limited period, to representatives of their own choosing; and whenever it is executed contrary to their interest, or not agreeable to their wishes, their servants can, and undoubtedly will, be recalled."

I looked on the Gallup poll website this morning and Presidents Bush's approval rating is 37% and has only risen 6% since it was at it's lowest in May of this year.
Too bad George Washington didn't have to deal with terrorists flying planes into buildings and using chemical explosives hidden in Gatorade bottles to try and blow airplanes up.

If you really think that the governement is tapping your phones and you aren't doing anything remotely wrong, you are full of yourself and need to get real.

Warrantless wiretapping saves lives, period.

If you are pissed because you think someone else is listening in on your dirty talk on 1-900-horny or whatever, send the government a bill.
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post #17 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
George Washington once stated in 1787

" The power under the Constitution will always be in the people. It is entrusted for certain defined purposes, and for a certain limited period, to representatives of their own choosing; and whenever it is executed contrary to their interest, or not agreeable to their wishes, their servants can, and undoubtedly will, be recalled."

I looked on the Gallup poll website this morning and Presidents Bush's approval rating is 37% and has only risen 6% since it was at it's lowest in May of this year.
WTF does his approval rating have to do with this? See SVTVenoms post, and read it carefully.

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post #18 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 90 Notch
There has been a provision for the government to wiretap phone calls in which one of the parties is not on American soil. Every President has done it since 1973, ac cording to one "scholar" I saw last night on CNN. Take off your Bush hating goggles dude.

This judge took her personal bias and put it into a ruling. Imagine someone doing that, maybe a liberal?

This ruling concerned domestic wiretaps, which means inside the borders of the USA. The FISA act specifically set up a 3 shift, 24 hour court, so the Govt. can get warrants 24 hours a day, no waiting. There's even an emergency provisions for wiretaps to started without a warrant, so long as paperwork requesting a warrant is filed with the court within 72 hours. Seems to be pretty easy to work by that.

But Bush has been doing this for 5 years, and he never put forth ANY legislation to repeal the FISA Act or to amend the Constitution. The FISA Act of 1978 was passed because of illegal wiretaps of another Republican presednt, Richard Nixon.

Bush apparently thinks he's above the law, by bypassing the Constitution and the FISA Act, while making zero attempts to change the law.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13958508/

Scott

Last edited by White trash wagon; 08-18-2006 at 11:50 AM.
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post #19 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SVTVenom
Too bad George Washington didn't have to deal with terrorists flying planes into buildings and using chemical explosives hidden in Gatorade bottles to try and blow airplanes up.

If you really think that the governement is tapping your phones and you aren't doing anything remotely wrong, you are full of yourself and need to get real.

Warrantless wiretapping saves lives, period.

If you are pissed because you think someone else is listening in on your dirty talk on 1-900-horny or whatever, send the government a bill.
Well I have no personal issue with the wire taps nor do I recall stating I did. I understand both sides of this delimma, some persons feel by restraining the President with the Constitution we will allow for terrorists to be more successful; however, others feel that the Constitution is being trampled on in a quest to secure the nation while abusing the power against the citizens not just the foreign terrorist as it was meant to be.

Also try to refrain from showing your youthful belligerence and false assumptions in this forum. I am not here to talk smack like we do in the Sports forum. I suggest you step up to the plate and make a semi-intelligent attempt to argue the quote not use false based personal insults to show you lack the basic ability to carry on a legitimate conversation about a real world subject.
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post #20 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by White trash wagon
This ruling converned domestic wiretaps, which means inside the borders of the USA. The FISA act specifically set up a 3 shift, 24 hour court, so the Govt. can get warrants 24 hours a day, no waiting. There's even an emergency provisions for wiretaps to started without a warrant, so long as paperwork requesting a warrant is filed with the court within 72 hours. Seems to be pretty easy to work by that.

But Bush has been doing this for 5 years, and he never put forth ANY legislation to repeal the FISA Act or to amend the Constitution. The FISA Act of 1978 was passed because of illegal wiretaps of another Republican presednt, Richard Nixon.

Bush apparently thinks he's above the law, by bypassing the Constitution and the FISA Act, while making zero attempts to change the law.

Scott
Please show me where there is any proof that domestic calls have been wiretapped without a warrant. I thought I had read most everything out there, but I have never seen where anyone has proven that there has been domestic illegal wiretaps. Feel free to enlighten if i missed it.

Do you feel the same about international calls where one party is overseas but one party is in the US?

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post #21 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
Well I have no personal issue with the wire taps nor do I recall stating I did. I understand both sides of this delimma, some persons feel by restraining the President with the Constitution we will allow for terrorists to be more successful; however, others feel that the Constitution is being trampled on in a quest to secure the nation while abusing the power against the citizens not just the foreign terrorist as it was meant to be.

Also try to refrain from showing your youthful belligerence and false assumptions in this forum. I am not here to talk smack like we do in the Sports forum. I suggest you step up to the plate and make a semi-intelligent attempt to argue the quote not use false based personal insults to show you lack the basic ability to carry on a legitimate conversation about a real world subject.
Come on PT, don't get all high and mighty while you are basically quoting Pelosi, Dean, and Kerry and acting like it is original thought. LOL

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post #22 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:51 AM
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The ACLU needs to STFU.
x2
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post #23 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Please show me where there is any proof that domestic calls have been wiretapped without a warrant. I thought I had read most everything out there, but I have never seen where anyone has proven that there has been domestic illegal wiretaps. Feel free to enlighten if i missed it.

Do you feel the same about international calls where one party is overseas but one party is in the US?
From the link I provided: SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge Thursday refused to dismiss a lawsuit challenging the Bush administration’s domestic spying program, rejecting government claims that allowing the case to go forward could expose state secrets and jeopardize the war on terror.

I personally feel overseas calls are more "suspect", and so possibly elligible for warantless wiretaps. But a review of the Constitution and FISA would be in order,since staying within the bounds of FISA seems to be easy.

Scott
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post #24 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
Well I have no personal issue with the wire taps nor do I recall stating I did. I understand both sides of this delimma, some persons feel by restraining the President with the Constitution we will allow for terrorists to be more successful; however, others feel that the Constitution is being trampled on in a quest to secure the nation while abusing the power against the citizens not just the foreign terrorist as it was meant to be.

Also try to refrain from showing your youthful belligerence and false assumptions in this forum. I am not here to talk smack like we do in the Sports forum. I suggest you step up to the plate and make a semi-intelligent attempt to argue the quote not use false based personal insults to show you lack the basic ability to carry on a legitimate conversation about a real world subject.
I would hope they would use it domestically seeing as how terrorists come over here, live/hide in our cities, plan, and then bomb us. They have to communicate some how using our means of communication i.e. phone lines, cell phones, E-mail, message boards, etc. and there has to be some way to intercept that to save lives.

People need to realize that that the constitution, while an excellent document in its own right and has some great things written in it, is slowly but surely becoming out-dated because of the situations that are occuring on a daily basis.

Terrorists don't have any rules to hinder them in plotting to kill you and other Americans, while we have to deal with judges like this that want to handcuff the government in preventing terrorists from killing innocents.

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post #25 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 11:58 AM
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Stepping on the Constitution or not, if it helps to somewhat secure the country from foreign terrorist threat then I'm all for it. There has been no change in my life what so ever since the wire tapping started. It doesn't affect me, it doesn't dilute my Constitutional rights, nor does it have any impact on any aspect of my life. Certain people choose to slam the act because it gives them a right to hate the President even more. If it doesn't affect my day to day living in a negative way, let it happen. The government isn't doing it to step on people's figurative toes, they are doing it because they feel it is in the best interest of the country and that it will help national security. People need to realize that...the government isn't trying to invade your rights or infringe upon them, they are trying to protect this country from terrorism.

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post #26 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White trash wagon
From the link I provided: SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge Thursday refused to dismiss a lawsuit challenging the Bush administration’s domestic spying program, rejecting government claims that allowing the case to go forward could expose state secrets and jeopardize the war on terror.

I personally feel overseas calls are more "suspect", and so possibly elligible for warantless wiretaps. But a review of the Constitution and FISA would be in order,since staying within the bounds of FISA seems to be easy.

Scott
The problem is that most liberals call any wiretap of a call originating in or coming into a phone in the US, no matter if it has a connection overseas, is a DOMESTIC wiretap. So, again, please find a place where a domestic, defined by calls within the US, is being done the Bush administration.

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post #27 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:08 PM
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I don't think anyone really knows what is being tapped and what is not. It's a bunch of speculation giving the Dems and Republicans something to yell at each other about. If the Democrats don't like it and would rather give up that aspect of national security, then quit tapping. We can thank the dems for it again.

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post #28 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90StangLX5.0
I don't think anyone really knows what is being tapped and what is not. It's a bunch of speculation giving the Dems and Republicans something to yell at each other about. If the Democrats don't like it and would rather give up that aspect of national security, then quit tapping. We can thank the dems for it again.
It will be interesting when the Presidnetial debates start. I wonder what position the Dem nominee will take when asked about what he/she will do about them.

I wonder if an attack happens soon after a Dem takes office if all the people who blamed Bush for 9/11 will take responsibility for it. I just hope no one has to die for the Dems to see the error of their ways.

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post #29 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Come on PT, don't get all high and mighty while you are basically quoting Pelosi, Dean, and Kerry and acting like it is original thought. LOL
That quote has nothing to do with being high and mighty it is simply an attempt to show people that others are concerned with issues that apply to the constitution as well. In 2001 Bush had a 90% approval rating and he was given the power the people felt he needed to take care of the terrorist threat. Now his approval rating is less than half that and the majority of people do not approve of his respective job performace. The downside is these people also wish to neglect the war on terrorism to take back some control via the constitution they feel they have lost. This issue has no affect on me personally so I really am not bothered by the wire taps in a ll reality.

I would expect you to at least be able to understand this without slinging the names Dean and Kerry this way. Please show me where it is I am quoting Dean, Kerry or Pelosi. I got this quote from a book I am currently reading for grad class that begins at months end and thought it appropriate for this post that I recalled reading yesterday.
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post #30 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
That quote has nothing to do with being high and mighty it is simply an attempt to show people that others are concerned with issues that apply to the constitution as well. In 2001 Bush had a 90% approval rating and he was given the power the people felt he needed to take care of the terrorist threat. Now his approval rating is less than half that and the majority of people do not approve of his respective job performace. The downside is these people also wish to neglect the war on terrorism to take back some control via the constitution they feel they have lost. This issue has no affect on me personally so I really am not bothered by the wire taps in a ll reality.

I would expect you to at least be able to understand this without slinging the names Dean and Kerry this way. Please show me where it is I am quoting Dean, Kerry or Pelosi. I got this quote from a book I am currently reading for grad class that begins at months end and thought it appropriate for this post that I recalled reading yesterday.
While I have no desire to do it, I bet someone who had the time could find all 3 of those people spewing the same liberal rhetoric and Bush hating you write. that is my point.

Your opinions and writings have all the earmarkings of a DNC talking point memo.

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post #31 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTVenom
I would hope they would use it domestically seeing as how terrorists come over here, live/hide in our cities, plan, and then bomb us. They have to communicate some how using our means of communication i.e. phone lines, cell phones, E-mail, message boards, etc. and there has to be some way to intercept that to save lives.

People need to realize that that the constitution, while an excellent document in its own right and has some great things written in it, is slowly but surely becoming out-dated because of the situations that are occuring on a daily basis.

Terrorists don't have any rules to hinder them in plotting to kill you and other Americans, while we have to deal with judges like this that want to handcuff the government in preventing terrorists from killing innocents.

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I don't recall using the word domestic in my quote do you? I stated using the system against the U.S. citizens, if you can use a wire tap to prove a US citizen is involved in terrrorism then I support it. If you use that same power to spy on rival politicians, see Watergate if you wonder why some are suspicious then I don't support it's use domestically. I never stated that I felt that the judges ruling was correct or in my best interest did I? I guess the fact someone questions this issue on here makes them wrong? I never said I was against the wire taps and to be honest the judges ruling scares me in some ways.

The fact you don't understand the constitution also equally scares me. Please show me where it is outdated and is not a document that is being interpreted differently by every generation? The fact that Bush's adminstration has the ability to appeal the courts ruling shows it is a functional and still valid documents.
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post #32 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:42 PM
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Who gives a flying rat's ass what his approval rating is? Is that any indication of the job he is doing? NO. He cleaned up the mess that was the United States when it was handed over from Billary Clinton. Not one single soul in this country could have done a better job than he is doing. I don't much like him, but I won't deny that I think he's doing a great job. No president ever has done their whole term without some controversy. Live and learn.

Warranted or unwarranted, the wire tapping is adding to this country's safety. Like it or not, it's helping you from being attacked. How many people have seen their life directly affected by it? NONE. The Bush haters just lobby around this topic and use it as venom to try and bring Dubya down. Let it go...

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post #33 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:44 PM
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While I have no desire to do it, I bet someone who had the time could find all 3 of those people spewing the same liberal rhetoric and Bush hating you write. that is my point.

Your opinions and writings have all the earmarkings of a DNC talking point memo.
You are showing true ignorance on this one Notch, I quoted Washington to show how he felt about the Consitution and the people who he felt control it. I never once stated I felt the ACLU was correct or the judge made a good ruling. I felt threatened the minute I read of her ruling; however, I do feel that limits should be imposed when wire tapping. If you don't agree with this, I could view you as a semi-communist who enjoys the Government having absolute control of the people not vice versa. I do undertand you are not such a thing but you must understand questioning an idea, making a quote and showing a poll doesn't make one a liberal either. I am actually satisfied with Bush's job performance and don't plan to put a democrat in the white house with my vote come next election.
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post #34 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
I don't recall using the word domestic in my quote do you? I stated using the system against the U.S. citizens, if you can use a wire tap to prove a US citizen is involved in terrrorism then I support it. If you use that same power to spy on rival politicians, see Watergate if you wonder why some are suspicious then I don't support it's use domestically. I never stated that I felt that the judges ruling was correct or in my best interest did I? I guess the fact someone questions this issue on here makes them wrong? I never said I was against the wire taps and to be honest the judges ruling scares me in some ways.

The fact you don't understand the constitution also equally scares me. Please show me where it is outdated and is not a document that is being interpreted differently by every generation? The fact that Bush's adminstration has the ability to appeal the courts ruling shows it is a functional and still valid documents.
I think the government has better things to do than spy on Kerry and his wife making Ketchup.

The constitution was written over 200 years ago. The world has changed many times over since then to where what it speaks of is almost irrelevant. If the government was to amend the constitution to where it is up-to-date with what is occuring in the world, liberals would have a shit-fit simply from the fact that they think a document from 1787 can handle any and all situations occuring in today's world.
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post #35 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:50 PM
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Who gives a flying rat's ass what his approval rating is? Is that any indication of the job he is doing? NO. He cleaned up the mess that was the United States when it was handed over from Billary Clinton. Not one single soul in this country could have done a better job than he is doing. I don't much like him, but I won't deny that I think he's doing a great job. No president ever has done their whole term without some controversy. Live and learn.

Warranted or unwarranted, the wire tapping is adding to this country's safety. Like it or not, it's helping you from being attacked. How many people have seen their life directly affected by it? NONE. The Bush haters just lobby around this topic and use it as venom to try and bring Dubya down. Let it go...
I never stated I didn't agree with your opinion, you should know why the general population does not. What you fail to realize this, it is at this point your opinion doesn't make a rat's ass and the polls do. The polls tell us how the country views the government and what way the are leaning at a given time. The idea is, it is easy for everyone to jump on this forum and bitch, what makes it difficult is when you try to explain why the court ruling was made. Also the anwer is no, no to calling the judge a bitch or left winger as a way of explaining the issue. It matters not if I agree but why it happened.
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post #36 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
I never stated I didn't agree with your opinion, you should know why the general population does not. What you fail to realize this, it is at this point your opinion doesn't make a rat's ass and the polls do. The polls tell us how the country views the government and what way the are leaning at a given time. The idea is, it is easy for everyone to jump on this forum and bitch, what makes it difficult is when you try to explain why the court ruling was made. Also the anwer is no, no to calling the judge a bitch or left winger as a way of explaining the issue. It matters not if I agree but why it happened.
That wasn't aimed at you directly PT. I realize that my opinion by and large doesn't mean squat. But what good does it do for the left to bitch? They are being protected by the President that they hate and they continue to show that they are ungrateful for what this particular President has done for this country. Granted, not everyone thinks he does well because his approval rating is low; however, he has done a great job keeping this country safe since 9/11/2001, the economy is strong, welfare is down, unemployment is down, etc.

I've stated before and I'll state again, I am 100% in support of the wire tapping until the day comes (which it likely won't) where it affects my life directly.

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post #37 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 01:03 PM
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I think the government has better things to do than spy on Kerry and his wife making Ketchup.
If it helps someone in w's circle get elected, I don't doubt they would.
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post #38 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
You are showing true ignorance on this one Notch, I quoted Washington to show how he felt about the Consitution and the people who he felt control it. I never once stated I felt the ACLU was correct or the judge made a good ruling. I felt threatened the minute I read of her ruling; however, I do feel that limits should be imposed when wire tapping. If you don't agree with this, I could view you as a semi-communist who enjoys the Government having absolute control of the people not vice versa. I do undertand you are not such a thing but you must understand questioning an idea, making a quote and showing a poll doesn't make one a liberal either. I am actually satisfied with Bush's job performance and don't plan to put a democrat in the white house with my vote come next election.
Man, you are so scattered with your posts, I have tiredhead.

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post #39 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 01:21 PM
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If it helps someone in w's circle get elected, I don't doubt they would.
W only, or any politician from either party?

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post #40 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-18-2006, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Man, you are so scattered with your posts, I have tiredhead.
There was nothing scattered about that quote, you simply have no way to argue the point. I don't agree with the judges ruling but I uderstand why others feel the government is abusing it's power. Understanding does not equate to agreeing with said idea. It matters not if we agree with ACLU what we must look at is why they were able to get a favorable ruling in their case.

The other thought was, you put me in the same category as Dean and Kerry but can't explain how that works, show a quote and validate your idea when I clearly approve a Bush's performance. I think you should take a break and collect your thoughts, it is your thoughts that lack organization not mine.
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post #41 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
There was nothing scattered about that quote, you simply have no way to argue the point. I don't agree with the judges ruling but I uderstand why others feel the government is abusing it's power. Understanding does not equate to agreeing with said idea. It matters not if we agree with ACLU what we must look at is why they were able to get a favorable ruling in their case.

The other thought was, you put me in the same category as Dean and Kerry but can't explain how that works, show a quote and validate your idea when I clearly approve a Bush's performance. I think you should take a break and collect your thoughts, it is your thoughts that lack organization not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
Bush apparently thinks he's above the law, by bypassing the Constitution and the FISA Act, while making zero attempts to change the law..
Will this one do? This is the kind of stuff that they would say. He neither bypassed the Constitution or FISA on overseas calls. Way too many scholars have admitted this, even some who are pretty liberal but have decided to be intellectually honest for a change. Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton all had it, and now W. has it. This was not in dispute until after 9/11 and the hate mongering anti-war blogs got a grass roots movement going.

BTW, you should read the FW Star-Telegram article from Friday. It clearly said that the program is about overseas wiretaps, not domestic to domestic calls. You have been duped into thinking domestic calls by the liberal definition is within the US. The liberals, like the people you talk like, define domestic calls as any that involve even just one party in the US.

BTW, the judge you think overturned this program is a committed Democrat who helped Carter during his Presidential campaign and then got appointed by him to her lifetime seat on the federal bench. Hardly a person who could be considered anything but another liberal judge legislating from the bench.

How about we make a little sig wager on whether her ruling passes muster on appeal. Are you up for it?

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post #42 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 08:37 AM
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I read somewhere that this judge is a card holding member of the ACLU as well....surprising eh?

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post #43 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 08:54 AM
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I can see both sides of the issue; but the fact remains that the wiretaps are helping keep this country safe. It is a fine balance between protection and personal rights. I see no evidence that the wiretapping is being abused although i'll allow that they certainly could be if someone wanted to. There is the old adage about giving up freedoms for safety and we should always consider that; but there are also times when it is prudent to adjust the freedom/safety ratio for current threats.

What is interesting to me is that the left complains about these kinds of things while at the same time complaining that not enough is being done in the war on terrorism. Seems to me that you can't have it both ways. If these people taking this position ever get elected and are not as diligent as the current administration is about trying to get ahead of the terrorists then IMO we'll have another 9/11 type of event sooner or later.

The terrorists are not going to quit or go away; it is incumbent upon us to remain diligent and snuff them out whenever/however we can.

Oh, and the ACLU can go piss up a rope
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post #44 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-19-2006, 08:59 AM
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I can see both sides of the issue; but the fact remains that the wiretaps are helping keep this country safe. It is a fine balance between protection and personal rights. I see no evidence that the wiretapping is being abused although i'll allow that they certainly could be if someone wanted to. There is the old adage about giving up freedoms for safety and we should always consider that; but there are also times when it is prudent to adjust the freedom/safety ratio for current threats.

What is interesting to me is that the left complains about these kinds of things while at the same time complaining that not enough is being done in the war on terrorism. Seems to me that you can't have it both ways. If these people taking this position ever get elected and are not as diligent as the current administration is about trying to get ahead of the terrorists then IMO we'll have another 9/11 type of event sooner or later.

The terrorists are not going to quit or go away; it is incumbent upon us to remain diligent and snuff them out whenever/however we can.

Oh, and the ACLU can go piss up a rope
I agree 100%. They complain one way or another because there is no pleasing them. They will find something to gripe about regardless of what it is just so that they look good in someone's eyes. It's called despair. They're so desperate to get back in to office they will do anything.

If the ACLU pisses up a rope, the rope must be covered in tar and lit on fire.

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post #45 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 07:53 AM
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Did PT disappear when a thread got a little hot again?

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post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Will this one do? This is the kind of stuff that they would say. He neither bypassed the Constitution or FISA on overseas calls. Way too many scholars have admitted this, even some who are pretty liberal but have decided to be intellectually honest for a change. Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton all had it, and now W. has it. This was not in dispute until after 9/11 and the hate mongering anti-war blogs got a grass roots movement going.

BTW, you should read the FW Star-Telegram article from Friday. It clearly said that the program is about overseas wiretaps, not domestic to domestic calls. You have been duped into thinking domestic calls by the liberal definition is within the US. The liberals, like the people you talk like, define domestic calls as any that involve even just one party in the US.

BTW, the judge you think overturned this program is a committed Democrat who helped Carter during his Presidential campaign and then got appointed by him to her lifetime seat on the federal bench. Hardly a person who could be considered anything but another liberal judge legislating from the bench.

How about we make a little sig wager on whether her ruling passes muster on appeal. Are you up for it?

First you would want to bet on something I clearly have explained I don't feel is in the best interest of the country to begin with, the judges ruling. That would be like asking me to bet against Texas A&M, never gonna happen. Second, since when has questioning the Government become being a liberal? I recall when Clinton was in office people insisted he was in bed with China? Did that make them Liberals? I don't think so, I think you couldn't argue a point against someone unless you got to toss the word liberal in there. So once again here we go, I do not agree with the Judges ruling, is that a liberal idea? Second I approve of the job Bush is doing but see that over 60% of the Nation does not? How is that liberal? Third I never stated I felt the wire tapping was an issue for me or I was offended by it, period. I simply came on here to point out the obvious. What is so great about this thread if all you all do is bitch about the judge ,then agree with one another and not mention the fact others see it differently, others not being me by the way. I bet if the Government came down and said "due to National Security and the laws passed in 2001 we find it constitutionally sound to now order all citizens give up their firearms" because they now interpret the Constitution to only guarentee the right to bear arms, applies to the military and regulated Militias i.e. State National Guard and we no longer qualifiy to bear arms according to the new interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. I am sure the Left Wingers would love that but what about the people on the right or those like me who stand on middle ground and go hunting, own several weapons and always have? We would not feel as though that best suited our needs or concerns. This is how some feel about the wire taps, right or wrong they have the right to feel this way and question our Government.

Oh by the way here is my original quote "some persons feel by restraining the President with the Constitution we will allow for terrorists to be more successful; however, others feel that the Constitution is being trampled on in a quest to secure the nation while abusing the power against the citizens not just the foreign terrorist as it was meant to be."

I said some and others I never said "I" so how is this all of sudden turned into a knock down drag out between us? Is this because you are looking for someone to blame for others opinions? I don't express these opinions I simply pointed them out? I do wish you would read and stop making such absurb assumptions.

Last edited by Pro Trash; 08-21-2006 at 10:11 AM.
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post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
First you would want to bet on something I clearly have explained I don't feel is in the best interest of the country to begin with, the judges ruling. That would be like asking me to bet against Texas A&M, never gonna happen. Second, since when has questioning the Government become being a liberal? I recall when Clinton was in office people insisted he was in bed with China? Did that make them Liberals? I don't think so, I think you couldn't argue a point against someone unless you got to toss the word liberal in there. So once again here we go, I do not agree with the Judges ruling, is that a liberal idea? Second I approve of the job Bush is doing but see that over 60% of the Nation does not? How is that liberal? Third I never stated I felt the wire tapping was an issue for me or I was offended by it, period. I simply came on here to point out the obvious. What is so great about this thread if all you all do is bitch about the judge ,then agree with one another and not mention the fact others see it differently, others not being me by the way. I bet if the Government came down and said "due to National Security and the laws passed in 2001 we find it constitutionally sound to now order all citizens give up their firearms" because they now interpret the Constitution to only guarentee the right to bear arms, applies to the military and regulated Militias i.e. State National Guard and we no longer qualifiy to bear arms according to the new interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. I am sure the Left Wingers would love that but what about the people on the right or those like me who stand on middle ground and go hunting, own several weapons and always have? We would not feel as though that best suited our needs or concerns. This is how some feel about the wire taps, right or wrong they have the right to feel this way and question our Government.

Oh by the way here is my original quote "some persons feel by restraining the President with the Constitution we will allow for terrorists to be more successful; however, others feel that the Constitution is being trampled on in a quest to secure the nation while abusing the power against the citizens not just the foreign terrorist as it was meant to be."

I said some and others I never said "I" so how is this all of sudden turned into a knock down drag out between us? Is this because you are looking for someone to blame for others opinions? I don't express these opinions I simply pointed them out? I do wish you would read and stop making such absurb assumptions.
Your first post had a quote from George Washington and a sentence about Bush's approval rating. Then you post about how you like the ruling. WTF does Bush's approval rating have to do with anything? I guess if his approval rating was at 60% or so you would say his decisions were OK? That is what gives me tiredhead about you.

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post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Your first post had a quote from George Washington and a sentence about Bush's approval rating. Then you post about how you like the ruling. WTF does Bush's approval rating have to do with anything? I guess if his approval rating was at 60% or so you would say his decisions were OK? That is what gives me tiredhead about you.

When and where did I post that I liked her ruling, now you are just fabricating stuff. I pointed why the ruling came about and the approval rating has something to do with it. My god are you that simple minded? Let's do the math, in 2001 Bush had a 90% approval rating and was given the tools people felt he needed to control terrorism. In 2006 his approval rating is below 40% and people are wanting to take power away from him. I never said it was right or wrong I just felt some on here needed to be reminded why the ruling came down the way it did. I have never stated nor do I agree with that ruling. You haven't addressed the word liberal you tend to toss at anyone who dares challenge you . You can't argue the point because you know I am right, so don't confuse that with I think the ruling is right because I do not, please think before you type.

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post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
When and where did I post that I liked her ruling, now you are just fabricating stuff. I pointed why the ruling came about and the approval rating has something to do with it. My god are you that simple minded? Let's do the math, in 2001 Bush had a 90% approval rating and was given the tools people felt he needed to control terrorism. In 2006 his approval rating is below 40% and people are wanting to take power away from him. I never said it was right or wrong I just felt some on here needed to be reminded why the ruling came down the way it did. I have never stated nor do I agree with that ruling. You haven't addressed the word liberal you tend to toss at anyone who dares challenge you . You can't argue the point because you know I am right, so don't confuse that with I think the ruling is right because I do not, please think before you type.
You have consistently written ideas and thoughts consistent with liberal ideas and agendas. You equate a liberal judges ruling that will probably get overturned because she was wrong to his approval rating. You say that people want to take power away from him like this judge is ruling about his approval rating. His approval rating has nothing to do with the ruling, unless it emboldened this liberal judge to make her erroneous ruling.

BTW, what people want to take power away from him?

The reason the ruling came down is because a liberal judge was legislating from the bench. What other reason could there be? I hope you don't think the ruling came down because this liberal judge was ruling according to approval ratings. If so, that is very liberal thinking. I would love for someone to admit that liberals do that, but I doubt any liberal would.

Sorry PT, you are no challenge for me.

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post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 08-22-2006, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
You have consistently written ideas and thoughts consistent with liberal ideas and agendas. You equate a liberal judges ruling that will probably get overturned because she was wrong to his approval rating. You say that people want to take power away from him like this judge is ruling about his approval rating. His approval rating has nothing to do with the ruling, unless it emboldened this liberal judge to make her erroneous ruling.

BTW, what people want to take power away from him?

The reason the ruling came down is because a liberal judge was legislating from the bench. What other reason could there be? I hope you don't think the ruling came down because this liberal judge was ruling according to approval ratings. If so, that is very liberal thinking. I would love for someone to admit that liberals do that, but I doubt any liberal would.

Sorry PT, you are no challenge for me.
The general public has grown tired of the current administration just as they will the next one, just as they grew tired of Clinton, just as they grow tired of movies made last month. I didn't state the ruling was a direct result of his approval rating but more and more Americans are not satisfied with the current state of the country, here is a shocker, most don't even understand what the current state of the country is.

Turn on the evening news and watch them berate Bush about Iraq, the general public watches this, then begins to agree, the media won't make a big deal out of the fact we have had no terrorist attacks since 9-11. This is a point I like to bring up to my students, I feel safe and if wire taps are needed then so be it. It doesn't matter if I like Bush or not, what matters is I like the job he is doing for the most part. I think the ruling is an example of the nations view of our government, some not all, feel as if Bush is grasping for to much power. I don't care if you agree or not the country moves in trends politically, sometimes Dem sometimes Rep, currently it is Rep. The dem needs to reorganize it's ankle biters and get a decent candidate to run, I don't see that happening in 08.
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